74 replies to this topic

[Wesley]

BTW Wesley , the leader of Sharia4Belgium , has been arrested recently for inciting hate and violence on the internet .

Thank you for the information.

[AhmedTi]

Well, I am just reading your comments in a different way, zooming in its contents and hope you don’t mind for that.

I do have one question for you

Suppose a nun was riding in a bus In Islamic country let say Egypt for example and she encountered the same situation. Would you believe the woman or the official report?

Or suppose that woman was wearing burqa but she wasn’t a Muslim, would you care to defend the police statements?

[Wesley]

Basically it depends on where she is. In this case, you state Egypt. Each country has its own human rights scores and different levels of justice systems. Here is information from

http://escolapau.uab...emid=97&lang=en
Country INDH Non ratification HR violations IHL violations Country Total HR score Non-Rat of treaties HR violations IHL V Egypt 5.181 0.125 5.056 0.000
Belgium 0.542 0.000 0.542 0.000

As you can see, Egypt has quite the record for Human Rights Violations. Belgium really does not. However, anything is possible anywhere. I would trust the justice system in Belgium to discover the truth and deliver justice more than I would in Egypt, which has a comparatively shady history. To me, it does not matter the religion of the person. If a nun went accusing the police of sexual harrassment in Egypt, it would be more plausible than in Belgium as Egypt has a history of this if you remember Tehrer Square activities. However, the same measure still applies. Innocent until proven guilty. Would Egypt's system be able to be just? It is less likely than in Belgium.

Edited by Wesley, 10 July 2012 - 03:44 PM.

[Saracen21stC]

@ Wesley, If today your wife or sister or you mother was taken in a car by police from the street to police station, you would have demanded them to show the proof that she was safe under their authority and not being abused. It is their burden to prove that. Well, at least I would done this instead of trying to put the blame on that woman. Any civilized human would do that. And no! You have no right whatsoever to put blame on her in such situation as long as Police do not show evidence carrying out detailed analysis that she was safe inside. Till now, they haven't.

You say you believe that innocent till proven guilty, but still you have put the blame on shariah4Belgium by accusing that they are trying to create such 'example' to undermine the government even though you could not provide any proof. Thus betraying with your own statement. It is your burden to prove that shariah4Belgium did like this as you have accused them first. Also, you avoided the fact that Belgium government are targeting Muslims by creating Laws (Burqa ban, Niqab ban, Hijab ban in school) which would only make life of devout Muslims very difficult.

Anyway, you have surely lost a lot respect (at least from Muslims) by trying to put the blame on her in this situation.

[Saracen21stC]

@puregoodman, brother,

There is no point in arguing in this way. There are some non-Muslims who will always try to bully Muslims and put the blame on Muslims when you try to defend. Consider the example of the leader of shariah4Beligium. This guy praised the sister as she was able to hit back to save her honour when the Police were forcing to remove her whole Burqa. This was judged as being 'inciting hate and violence on the internet' even though it's the Belgium government who gave the license to punish Muslim sisters for wearing Burqa and Niqab. There are many schools where they do not allow sisters to go wearing hijab. They are contributing to the rise of hostility against Muslims, then they blame us of spreading hatred. And obviously you have already met people who continuously lie and defend punishing Muslims.

[Wesley]

Anyway, you have surely lost a lot respect (at least from Muslims) by trying to put the blame on her in this situation.

Did she press charges for sexual abuse and battery? No. Is this story on Shariah4Belgiums website and talked about in their public demonstrations and meetings? Yes.

What this means is Stephanie Djato either 1) Choosing to allow the 2 police officers to go unpunished for a sexual abuse or 2) Realize 2 police officers did not do what she says they did.

Option 1 could be a logical act of generosity. However, her video demonstrates this is not the case. Instead, she chose not to press charges and be featured as a media tool for an organization who desires the overthrow of the Belgian government to establish an undefined ideal of Shariah.

Why would she not press criminal charges in a country with a great history of justice and instead go through an organization which has no ability to administer justice?

To answer the hypothetical.. if this story happened to anyone I knew, we would be using the legal system. A lawyer would help with evidence of the sexual assault, medical testimony would be gathered, photos would be taken of the "crime scene," etc. All of this would be presented in a court of law in a country with a great history of justice.

I am not attacking Muslims, by the way. I have not even discussed the Niqab ban, all I have discusses is the merits of hers story. The video she created is not discussing the merits or demerits of the law. The video Stephanie made tells the story of police brutality so this is what I discussed. You never see I attack Muslims nor Islam. I said I pray for Stephanie's well being.

Just because I do not readily believe her story due to the circumstances does not mean I am attacking Muslims or even Islam. No one can deny that Shariah4Belgium's purpose is to establish Shariah Law in Belgium. No one can deny Stephanie made a video which is mass broadcast in all various affiliates of Sharia4. No one can deny Stephanie did not press charges for sexual abuse. No one can deny that evidence of her claims will never see a court because she chose not to. These are the definitive facts. My opinion based upon these facts will not change until the facts themselves change. It doesn't matter her religion.

Edited by Wesley, 10 July 2012 - 07:03 PM.

[Nightingale]

Wesley...while I see your point, allow me to bring up one reason she might nott have pressed charges as a hypothetical. Realize this has nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with sexual assault in a western country with a dislike of what a victim is.

Also realize that this strays into territory that isn't nice and I know for 100% fact this happened.

A girl, due to some differences, is sexually assaulted and raped by three men in Virginia (to be specific). When she does go to press charges against them and try to get some form of justice, what happened? She got laughed out of the police station and hit with a fine for filing a false report. It wasn't even investigated whatsoever.

You might ask yourself why? The answer is that the three men who raped her were powerful or connected to powerful people. Including the son of a ranking police officer in the community. None of those people could possibly have done such a thing since they were all upstanding individuals in the community.

In those circumstances, and considering the hatred for Muslims in Belgium right now (which friends from Spa tell me is on the rise nationwide), I can understand the wish not to face a citizenry that will attack you for your beliefs without listening. That's just one to take this Wesley. I'm not saying that is what happened, but it is plausible.

[Wesley]

Wesley...while I see your point, allow me to bring up one reason she might nott have pressed charges as a hypothetical. Realize this has nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with sexual assault in a western country with a dislike of what a victim is.

Also realize that this strays into territory that isn't nice and I know for 100% fact this happened.

A girl, due to some differences, is sexually assaulted and raped by three men in Virginia (to be specific). When she does go to press charges against them and try to get some form of justice, what happened? She got laughed out of the police station and hit with a fine for filing a false report. It wasn't even investigated whatsoever.

You might ask yourself why? The answer is that the three men who raped her were powerful or connected to powerful people. Including the son of a ranking police officer in the community. None of those people could possibly have done such a thing since they were all upstanding individuals in the community.

In those circumstances, and considering the hatred for Muslims in Belgium right now (which friends from Spa tell me is on the rise nationwide), I can understand the wish not to face a citizenry that will attack you for your beliefs without listening. That's just one to take this Wesley. I'm not saying that is what happened, but it is plausible.

I do accept it is plausible. This is why I then question the second step of choosing Shariah4Belgium as the outlet to bypass a possibly corrupt legal system. There are organization in Belgium such as the Arab European League, the political Muslim Democratic Party, and several other groups which promote the interests of Muslims within the current framework of the Belgium government. Each has access to media and the ability to share the story and create pressure for justice. Why did she choose Shariah4Belgium instead of these other groups?

[Saracen21stC]

Did she press charges for sexual abuse and battery? No. Is this story on Shariah4Belgiums website and talked about in their public demonstrations and meetings? Yes.

For first question, not yet. And this story is not only on shariah4belgium, it is on many other Islamic sites, forums. But it's quite natural to expect that Muslim organizations in Belgium will be the first one to give news from Belgium related to Muslims

What this means is Stephanie Djato either 1) Choosing to allow the 2 police officers to go unpunished for a sexual abuse or 2) Realize 2 police officers did not do what she says they did.

That's slippery slope. Interesting thing here is that you never asked the questions, Is this the same government who banned Burqa and Niqab and punishes Muslims even though the Devout Muslim women protested against the law? Do the report of this incidence blaming the woman appears in anti-Islamic sites who want to deport Muslims and constantly attacks Islam and Muslims.?

Now the question is why you did not ask those question? And it has been stated so many times that Police should give report proving that she was not forcefully stripped naked by them and beaten badly. No evidence so far.

Option 1 could be a logical act of generosity. However, her video demonstrates this is not the case. Instead, she chose not to press charges and be featured as a media tool for an organization who desires the overthrow of the Belgian government to establish an undefined ideal of Shariah.

That's very disrespectful to say that she became a media tool for organization who desires to overthrow the Belgian government to establish an undefined ideal of Shariah. She said in that video.

Let me again emphasize that I've recorded this video solely with the objective to tell the truth to everyone. The Muslims, the non-Muslims, ... I clarify that I dont call for hatred. I hope that this story will end the lies and that the truth prevails.


And where is the evidence that they desire to overthrow the Belgian government to establish an undefined ideal of Shariah using this example? It looks like you do not understand shariah properly as any devout Muslim would want sharia. If this incidence took place in any place Muslims would have used it to raise awareness against hatred of Muslims. That's how even the non-Muslims work.

Why would she not press criminal charges in a country with a great history of justice and instead go through an organization which has no ability to administer justice?

Well, the hatred against Muslims is rife in those countries. Here is evidence.
http://www.amnesty.o...aith-2012-04-23

http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-17824132

And as it has been stated earlier that the government has given open license to punish Muslims women for wearing Burqa + Niqab. So, where to ask for the Justice when the government itself is contributing to the rise of hostility against Islam and Muslims?

To answer the hypothetical.. if this story happened to anyone I knew, we would be using the legal system. A lawyer would help with evidence of the sexual assault, medical testimony would be gathered, photos would be taken of the "crime scene," etc. All of this would be presented in a court of law in a country with a great history of justice.

I wonder what sort of medical evidence will be there if Police (including men) take a Muslim woman inside the station and forcefully strip her naked, touch her body and beat her. She did say that she have the medical report though.


As for the rest, actually, any Muslim with sound understanding of Islam would want to follow shariah.

[Aligarr]

LOLOLOL.....good luck Wesley !

[Wesley]

So you are saying the Belgian government would not punish police officers if the police officers had sexually abused a woman, solely because the Belgian government restricts the wear of certain clothes?

Also, who filmed Stephanie Djato's testimony? This might help convince me one way or the other. Was it Shariah4Belgium or one of their affiliates, like Women4Shariah?

[Saracen21stC]

So you are saying the Belgian government would not punish police officers if the police officers had sexually abused a woman, solely because the Belgian government restricts the wear of certain clothes?

The police took her from the street to Police station. Inside the station, the Police (including men) forcefully removed her Jilbaab (a man sat on her buttock and cut her jilbaab including underwear with scissor), stripped her naked and beat her. You can read the description from the Original Posts. A link is given there. There is also a video. And yes, Belgium government has banned such clothes even though these clothes did no harm to them, and devout Muslim women protested against the ban. So, it's easy for police to give excuse that they were just forcefully removing 'banned' clothes from the woman's body and teaching her 'lessons'. Also, Anti-Hijab and Burqa sentiment is rife there among the common citizens. Hard to get support for such cause.

Also, who filmed Stephanie Djato's testimony? This might help convince me one way or the other. Was it Shariah4Belgium or one of their affiliates, like Women4Shariah?

That video at 1st page was recorded by herself to make all Muslims know the truth and become aware of this. People working at Shariah4Belgium and Women4Shariah are obviously Muslims. So, it is slippery slope to say just because shariah4Belgium has stood by her they are using it to incite hatred. The ones who have spread hatred are the people, the government who introduced (and supports) this ban. I gave two links at my previous post which show the discrimination against Muslim women for demonstrating their faith . And the Police have given no evidence of what they really did to her inside the station even though it's their burden to give the proof. Moreover, you have avoided many other things from my earlier posts.

[Aligarr]

Of course not . I guess my sarcasm eliudes you . As I listen to this discussion one thing is clear .Whatever disagrees with the commonly held notions of saracen21stC is dismissed as "hatred of muslims " . And whatever he says is the truth ,and any contradiction , any fact that contradicts ...is a lie . Not only a lie but to argue it is , in and of itself is a sign of "hatred for muslims " /Did you notice how easily the arrest of the Sharia4Belgium leader was defended ? Doesn't matter when the "hate speech and incitement " comes from the other side ...it is always justified .
That is why I said " good luck " .

[Wesley]

The polices took her from the street to Police station. Inside the station, the Polices (including men) forcefully removed her Jilbaab (a man sat on her buttock and cut her jilbaab including underwear with scissor), stripped her naked and beat her. You can read the description from the Original Posts. A link is given there. There is also a video. And yes, Belgium government has banned such clothes even though these clothes did no harm to them, and devout Muslim women protested against the ban.



That video at 1st page was recorded by herself to make all Muslims know the truth and become aware of this. People working at Shariah4Belgium and Women4Shariah are obviously Muslims. So, it is slippery slope to say just because shariah4Belgium has stood by her, they are using it to incite hatred. The ones who have spread hatred are the people, the government who introduced (and supports) this ban. I gave two links at my previous post which show the discrimination against Muslim women for demonstrating their faith . And the Police have given no evidence of what they really did to her inside the station even though it's their burden to give the proof. Moreover, you have avoided many other things from my earlier posts.

There is no burden of proof for the police as Stephanie Djato did not press charges. There is no legal guilt as Stephanie Djato has not formally, through the legal system, accused the police of a crime. They will not need to defend themselves unless she changes her mind.

Once again, the accounts that you have posted, the videos, are a non-legal story. It is a horrific story but in the end, nothing which has been substantiated. This will be my last post on this topic until the facts change. No need to beat up a dead horse over the matter.

Finally, I wish the best for Stephanie Djato. I will pray for her well-being and for justice, however God wills it. If the facts change and it turns out the police are convicted of sexual abuse, I accept this. Justice is justice.

[Saracen21stC]

I will also wait to see what she will be doing to get justice. Hoping that she charges the police through legal system. But in an anti-Islamic country getting justice for this is almost impossible as far as I can see.