6 replies to this topic

[sereihan]

Islam is an extension of Jewish Christianity, one major form of early Christianity who believed that Christ Jesus (PBUH) is a messenger of God and only a human and believed in following the Law as the way of salvation, which was again an extension to the same one basic old message that was revealed through all previous prophets to all mankind which we call Islam or submission to God's will(worshiping God the Creator alone and following his law that he reveals through his appointed messenger to achieve salvation) as opposed to the movement of Paul among the gentiles coming from Greek background,

• Ebionites , New World Encyclopedia "the Ebionites saw Jesus as a mortal human being, who by being a holy man, was chosen by God to be the prophet of the "Kingdom of Heaven. The Ebionites insisted on following Jewish dietary and religious laws, and rejected the writings of Paul of Tarsus. Thus, Ebionites were in theological conflict with the emerging dominant streams of Christianity that opened up to the Gentiles"
• Ebionites, Catholic Encyclopedia "they regarded St. Paul as an apostate".

The disciples& their followers in Jerusalem were Jewish Christians, practicing just like their fellow Jews& continued to worship in the temple after the ascension of Jesus(PBUH)& if they were to worship Jesus(PBUH) in the temple or preach Jesus(PBUH) is God they will be expelled out of the temple and had to establish their own church which is something they did not do,

• Acts 2:46(NIV) "Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts", Luke 24:53 "And they stayed continually at the temple, praising God"

We know that in the early centuries following Jesus(PBUH) the dominant Christian groups around Palestine were Jewish Christians:

• Ebionites, New Catholic Encyclopedia "A Jewish Christian sect that flourished between the first and the fourth century."

• Ebionites, The Concise Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church 2000 "An ascetic sect of Jewish Christians which flourished on the E. of the R. Jordan in the early years of the Christian era."

• Ebionites, Encyclopedia of Religion 2005 " is the name given to a Jewish Christian sect that flourished during the early history of the Christian church"

One classical Christian objection to the relation between Jewish Christianity and Islam based on the writings of the early church fathers about Jewish Christianity that Jewish Christianity rejected the virgin birth of Jesus(PBUH) while Islam affirms the miraculous birth of Jesus (PBUH); and the answer to this is easy because we don’t expect the early church fathers to be correct in all what they have wrote about Jewish Christianity!

This could have been a misconception in the mind of the early church fathers about the Jewish Christianity, just like many Christians today even priests with all this knowledge available today they have plain misconceptions about Islam! (they don’t know Islam affirms that Jesus (PBUH) was the true Christ , his ascension , his 2nd coming and so on), so it will be natural for the early church fathers to have misconceptions, for example they may think since the Jewish Christians reject the divinity of Jesus(PBUH) this means they also reject his miraculous birth& believe he is a result of a natural conception!

The Jewish Christians are the Christians complemented in the Quran and promised salvation:

Quran 2:62 "Those who believe (in the Quran), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians, any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve"

By Sereihan Alshammari

[Wanderer]

I'm just going to leave this link to several papers published by an Australian church that believes the Koran is a logical extension to the Bible here.

http://ccg.org/_doma...Islam/Islam.htm

[sereihan]

I'm just going to leave this link to several papers published by an Australian church that believes the Koran is a logical extension to the Bible here.

http://ccg.org/_doma...Islam/Islam.htm

With all due respect the author of this article is quit ignorant of the Islamic creeds, enough to give you two plain examples:

• "At both Al Tariq and The Cow, the Prophet states that there will be no helper or intercessor. He is not refuting Christ’s command of human judgment, but rather the increasing practice of assuming human or other intercession by Mariam (Mary), the angels and by dead saints. Further example is that of The Night Journey 17:56-57 which states,

Pray if you will to those whom you deify besides Him. They cannot relieve your distress, nor can they change it. Those to whom they pray, themselves seek to approach their Lord, vying with each other to be near Him.

The biblical concept is the same, in that prayer is to God only (in Christ’s name), and no other."

My comment:
There is no intercession in prayer directed to God in Islam, it is considered polytheism! Intercession in Islam in the Day of Judgment is (after the permission of God is given) the one who intercede like a prophet can will ask God to forgive a sinful person who is a believer to go to paradise without passing to hellfire or to go out from hellfire to paradise and so on depends on the type of intercession.

• "6. He us created from a gushing fluid 7. That issued from between the loins and ribs." Surah alTariq, he says "Note verses 6 and 7, which clearly state of what we are created. This is a reference to that part of the crucifixion of the Morning Star when Christ was pierced and deemed dead. In other words, it was at this point in the death of Jesus, the Morning Star, that man was created."

My comment:

What kind of wild interpretation is this! Here Allah swt explain how man is created what this has to do with the crucifixion of the star or Jesus pierced on the cross?

Of note he says "The trinitarian position had stated that Christ was God. But quite clearly, Christ in human form was not God."

My comment:

I don’t know as a Christian you agree on that? If so why then Christians insist that Jesus is God and man at the same time! And Christians usually claim that Jesus was receiving worship when he was human if he was not God then he should not!

[Wanderer]

With all due respect the author of this article is quit ignorant of the Islamic creeds, enough to give you two plain examples:

• "At both Al Tariq and The Cow, the Prophet states that there will be no helper or intercessor. He is not refuting Christ’s command of human judgment, but rather the increasing practice of assuming human or other intercession by Mariam (Mary), the angels and by dead saints. Further example is that of The Night Journey 17:56-57 which states,

Pray if you will to those whom you deify besides Him. They cannot relieve your distress, nor can they change it. Those to whom they pray, themselves seek to approach their Lord, vying with each other to be near Him.

The biblical concept is the same, in that prayer is to God only (in Christ’s name), and no other."

My comment:
There is no intercession in prayer directed to God in Islam, it is considered polytheism! Intercession in Islam in the Day of Judgment is (after the permission of God is given) the one who intercede like a prophet can will ask God to forgive a sinful person who is a believer to go to paradise without passing to hellfire or to go out from hellfire to paradise and so on depends on the type of intercession.

You might want to reread that. The way I read that, it is condemning intercession. "He is...refuting...the increasing practice of assuming human or other intercession by Mariam (Mary), the angels and by dead saints." It also looks like they doubled-down on that viewpoint with the quote following that. If anything, they're agreeing with you that you pray to God directly with no need for an intercessor, unless you want to take issue with the words in parentheses.

As an aside, this church also rejects the idea of an ever-burning hellfire. From what I can remember, it ascribes to a form of eventual universal salvation, which I'm sure isn't in-tune with Islamic beliefs.

• "6. He us created from a gushing fluid 7. That issued from between the loins and ribs." Surah alTariq, he says "Note verses 6 and 7, which clearly state of what we are created. This is a reference to that part of the crucifixion of the Morning Star when Christ was pierced and deemed dead. In other words, it was at this point in the death of Jesus, the Morning Star, that man was created."

My comment:

What kind of wild interpretation is this! Here Allah swt explain how man is created what this has to do with the crucifixion of the star or Jesus pierced on the cross?

Well, the author is still a Christian, so he's going to believe in the crucifixion. It appears what he is doing is using his background as a lens to interpret the Koran to see something related to the crucifixion in it. To me that's similar to Muslims reading their own beliefs into the Bible regarding "one that will come after Moses" as your Prophet, and not Jesus, who Christians ascribe that prophecy to. It's an independent interpretation without consulting Islamic scholars, sure. I'm not saying I agree with it or anything, but it's another way to look at it from a different perspective.

Of note he says "The trinitarian position had stated that Christ was God. But quite clearly, Christ in human form was not God."

My comment:

I don’t know as a Christian you agree on that? If so why then Christians insist that Jesus is God and man at the same time! And Christians usually claim that Jesus was receiving worship when he was human if he was not God then he should not!

This central doctrine of this particular church is Unitarianism, or the belief that God is exclusively one being and that Jesus is not that being, but a great prophet nonetheless; in other words, it rejects the Trinity. They have other papers that chronicle the activities of Unitarian Christians from the first century to today. Trinitarianism has been the dominant belief in Christianity since at least the Council of Nicaea in 325, where it was decided that it would be the "official" doctrine of the majority of Christians. A small minority of Christians today ascribes to the Unitarian view of God, but they've always been around in the periphery of Christendom. There's a whole history about that branch of Christianity.

I only brought this up because it's the only church that I know of that actually puts forth the idea that the Koran is a logical extension of the Bible. Now that doesn't mean they'll embrace mainstream Islam as there are still a great deal of differences between the two faiths.

By the way, I do ascribe to the Unitarian view of God.

Edited by Wanderer, 07 July 2012 - 04:18 AM.

[sereihan]

You might want to reread that. The way I read that, it is condemning intercession. "He is...refuting...the increasing practice of assuming human or other intercession by Mariam (Mary), the angels and by dead saints." It also looks like they doubled-down on that viewpoint with the quote following that. If anything, they're agreeing with you that you pray to God directly with no need for an intercessor, unless you want to take issue with the words in parentheses.

As an aside, this church also rejects the idea of an ever-burning hellfire. From what I can remember, it ascribes to a form of eventual universal salvation, which I'm sure isn't in-tune with Islamic beliefs.


Well, the author is still a Christian, so he's going to believe in the crucifixion. It appears what he is doing is using his background as a lens to interpret the Koran to see something related to the crucifixion in it. To me that's similar to Muslims reading their own beliefs into the Bible regarding "one that will come after Moses" as your Prophet, and not Jesus, who Christians ascribe that prophecy to. It's an independent interpretation without consulting Islamic scholars, sure. I'm not saying I agree with it or anything, but it's another way to look at it from a different perspective.


This central doctrine of this particular church is Unitarianism, or the belief that God is exclusively one being and that Jesus is not that being, but a great prophet nonetheless; in other words, it rejects the Trinity. They have other papers that chronicle the activities of Unitarian Christians from the first century to today. Trinitarianism has been the dominant belief in Christianity since at least the Council of Nicaea in 325, where it was decided that it would be the "official" doctrine of the majority of Christians. A small minority of Christians today ascribes to the Unitarian view of God, but they've always been around in the periphery of Christendom. There's a whole history about that branch of Christianity.

I only brought this up because it's the only church that I know of that actually puts forth the idea that the Koran is a logical extension of the Bible. Now that doesn't mean they'll embrace mainstream Islam as there are still a great deal of differences between the two faiths.

By the way, I do ascribe to the Unitarian view of God.

Since you are unitarian it will be my pleasure to have you as a friend!I want to ask you if you know about the history of the interaction between uniterian Christians and Islam which was from the early days of Islam? and How do you view the Jewish Christians as uniterian?

[Wanderer]

Since you are unitarian it will be my pleasure to have you as a friend!I want to ask you if you know about the history of the interaction between uniterian Christians and Islam which was from the early days of Islam? and How do you view the Jewish Christians as uniterian?

You could say that the Unitarians were one of the groups of successors to the Jewish Christians, who also held a Unitarian view of God. Jewish Christians were probably the earliest form of Christianity before Paul preached to the Gentiles that they needn't follow many of the commandments contained in the Torah, but rather a simpler set of ideals. Unitarianism was stronger in areas outside of the Roman Empire, and was of course denounced as a heresy. Unfortunately, due to their low numbers, the history of the Unitarians is not nearly as replete as mainstream Christianity.

Unitarianism did pop its head up every now and then in Europe, but really became visible in the 1600s. There was constant conflict during the religious wars in Europe in that period between Trinitarians and Nontrinitarians. Eastern Europe was the center of Unitarianism during that time period. Some say that Ottoman Muslims may have influenced Christians in Transylvania at the time.

You can get a brief overview of the history at http://en.wikipedia....of_Unitarianism.

[sereihan]

You could say that the Unitarians were one of the groups of successors to the Jewish Christians, who also held a Unitarian view of God. Jewish Christians were probably the earliest form of Christianity before Paul preached to the Gentiles that they needn't follow many of the commandments contained in the Torah, but rather a simpler set of ideals. Unitarianism was stronger in areas outside of the Roman Empire, and was of course denounced as a heresy. Unfortunately, due to their low numbers, the history of the Unitarians is not nearly as replete as mainstream Christianity.

Unitarianism did pop its head up every now and then in Europe, but really became visible in the 1600s. There was constant conflict during the religious wars in Europe in that period between Trinitarians and Nontrinitarians. Eastern Europe was the center of Unitarianism during that time period. Some say that Ottoman Muslims may have influenced Christians in Transylvania at the time.

You can get a brief overview of the history at http://en.wikipedia....of_Unitarianism.

Islam had a great deal of interaction with Unitarian Christians!, it was the first person to recognize and follow prophet Muhammad pbuh was a Unitarian Christian by the name" Waraqah bin Nawfal" he was already old at that time and he was the one to explain to the prophet Muhammad pbuh his first experience with the holy spirit because prophet Muhammad pbuh did not know what was that experience exactly? and his people the Arabs are not familiar with prophet hood, their only prophet was Ishmael already very long time ago!

The earliest and the biggest support to the Muslims in the time of their persecution was by a Unitarian Christian by the name "Al Nagashi" king of Abyssinia now known as Ethiopia, he gave them shelter and protected them

The Unitarians were the true followers of Jesus pbuh and they were dominant in early centuries following Jesus pbuh, we don’t know much of what happened to them, the Quran reported some of what happened like those were in Najran south of Arabian peninsula who were persecuted by a Jewish king, later their influence diminished when the roman empire under Constantine tried to unify all Christians, most likely they were persecuted by the roman authority as some historians suggest because they were considered unorthodox!

This situation was in need of a prophet and that was Prophet Muhammad pbuh who revived the Unitarian message of Jesus pbuh and that was the way out for many of these Unitarians!

Edited by sereihan, 07 July 2012 - 08:17 PM.