31 replies to this topic

[sereihan]

2 Peter 1:16-17" We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty."

we are sure the disciples were not following a lie, they were rightly guided, what we are not sure of is what these Greek authors wrote about the disciples in the NT, the Christian apologists would usually jump to say but the disciples said! Or the disciples did! using the stories written in the bible, our problem is not with the disciples but with what was said about the disciples, we see here an example of a Greek gentile Christian writing his letter (2Peter) claiming in its beginning that he is Peter (the major disciple of Jesus (PBUH) & claiming, of course, that he witnessed Jesus (PBUH) in his ministry& what he was preaching about Jesus (PBUH) was naturally the truth& nothing but the truth!

Now we know that the biblical scholars agree this letter which was written around the year 150CE (around 90 years after the death of Peter)& was not authored by Peter, so what this unknown author says about "cleverly invented story!!" is true in his case& if it is true in his case it can be very well true anywhere else in the NT stories about Jesus(PBUH)& his disciples, the biblical scholars unanimously agree this letter is falsely attributed to Peter(forged letter) which means the words are put on the lips of this disciple:

Peter, The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition 2008 " Second Peter, however, is almost universally recognized as pseudonymous[ falsely attributed ], and is dated by many scholars as late as AD 150."

2 Peter Introduction, New American Bible "Among modern scholars there is wide agreement that 2 Peter is a pseudonymous work, i.e., one written by a later author who attributed it to Peter according to a literary convention popular at the time."

This letter is plain forgery, the claim of this person, whoever he was who wrote this letter!, that he was an eye witness to the ministry of Jesus(PBUH) is not true and is indeed a big lie!

In this way stories were invented about the disciples, these Greek gentiles are not true continuation of the tradition of the disciples of Jesus(PBUH), they see no problem at all in innovating stories to serve their desirable believe regardless to what could be the truth, the disciples were Jewish Christians, they believed& preached that Jesus (PBUH) is a mortal human being only a messenger of God& they were inspired by their deep believe in the one true God& the truthfulness of their master Christ Jesus(PBUH)& his preaching about the Kingdome of God, they followed the law of God sincerely as Jesus(PBUH) entrusted them, that was the true movement of the original Christianity which continued among the faithful followers until it was taken over by the new gentile Christianity:

Jewish Christians, A Dictionary of the Bible 1997 "The first Christians were practising Jews…The common element that bound these early Christians together was their belief that the Messiah was Jesus and that the scriptures were fulfilled in him. There was a major crisis when Paul, the former Pharisee, engaged in large-scale evangelization of Gentiles. It was his conviction that Jesus was not just the Jewish Messiah, and Christianity was not a kind of reformed Judaism. Salvation was offered to all mankind by Jesus, crucified and risen, and the Jewish Law was not an obligation for converted Gentiles. . After the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE, the future for the Church was in Paul's Gentile Christianity ... But from the beginning of the 2nd cent., survivors of Jewish Christianity were marginalized into the Ebionites and Nazoreans, whose works are quoted by Origen and Jerome."

Jewish Christians, New World Encyclopedia "Paul's innovations in his mission field—notably the doctrine of salvation by faith and the sufficiency of Christ's redemption by his death on the cross—led to tensions with some of the more conservative Jewish-Christians, so-called "Judaizers," who persuaded Gentile converts to also take up the full practice of Judaism."

The story of the disciples willing to die for the believe in dying& rising savior God for their salvation is myth created by Paul& his Greek gentile Christians followers imitating the dying-and-rising savior gods common to Greco-Roman cults.

By Sereihan Alshammari

[Wesley]

2 Peter 1:16-17" We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty."

we are sure the disciples were not following a lie, they were rightly guided, what we are not sure of is what these Greek authors wrote about the disciples in the NT, the Christian apologists would usually jump to say but the disciples said! Or the disciples did! using the stories written in the bible, our problem is not with the disciples but with what was said about the disciples, we see here an example of a Greek gentile Christian writing his letter (2Peter) claiming in its beginning that he is Peter (the major disciple of Jesus (PBUH) & claiming, of course, that he witnessed Jesus (PBUH) in his ministry& what he was preaching about Jesus (PBUH) was naturally the truth& nothing but the truth!

Now we know that the biblical scholars agree this letter which was written around the year 150CE (around 90 years after the death of Peter)& was not authored by Peter, so what this unknown author says about "cleverly invented story!!" is true in his case& if it is true in his case it can be very well true anywhere else in the NT stories about Jesus(PBUH)& his disciples, the biblical scholars unanimously agree this letter is falsely attributed to Peter(forged letter) which means the words are put on the lips of this disciple:

Peter, The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition 2008 " Second Peter, however, is almost universally recognized as pseudonymous[ falsely attributed ], and is dated by many scholars as late as AD 150."

2 Peter Introduction, New American Bible "Among modern scholars there is wide agreement that 2 Peter is a pseudonymous work, i.e., one written by a later author who attributed it to Peter according to a literary convention popular at the time."

This letter is plain forgery, the claim of this person, whoever he was who wrote this letter!, that he was an eye witness to the ministry of Jesus(PBUH) is not true and is indeed a big lie!

In this way stories were invented about the disciples, these Greek gentiles are not true continuation of the tradition of the disciples of Jesus(PBUH), they see no problem at all in innovating stories to serve their desirable believe regardless to what could be the truth, the disciples were Jewish Christians, they believed& preached that Jesus (PBUH) is a mortal human being only a messenger of God& they were inspired by their deep believe in the one true God& the truthfulness of their master Christ Jesus(PBUH)& his preaching about the Kingdome of God, they followed the law of God sincerely as Jesus(PBUH) entrusted them, that was the true movement of the original Christianity which continued among the faithful followers until it was taken over by the new gentile Christianity:

Jewish Christians, A Dictionary of the Bible 1997 "The first Christians were practising Jews…The common element that bound these early Christians together was their belief that the Messiah was Jesus and that the scriptures were fulfilled in him. There was a major crisis when Paul, the former Pharisee, engaged in large-scale evangelization of Gentiles. It was his conviction that Jesus was not just the Jewish Messiah, and Christianity was not a kind of reformed Judaism. Salvation was offered to all mankind by Jesus, crucified and risen, and the Jewish Law was not an obligation for converted Gentiles. . After the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE, the future for the Church was in Paul's Gentile Christianity ... But from the beginning of the 2nd cent., survivors of Jewish Christianity were marginalized into the Ebionites and Nazoreans, whose works are quoted by Origen and Jerome."

Jewish Christians, New World Encyclopedia "Paul's innovations in his mission field—notably the doctrine of salvation by faith and the sufficiency of Christ's redemption by his death on the cross—led to tensions with some of the more conservative Jewish-Christians, so-called "Judaizers," who persuaded Gentile converts to also take up the full practice of Judaism."

The story of the disciples willing to die for the believe in dying& rising savior God for their salvation is myth created by Paul& his Greek gentile Christians followers imitating the dying-and-rising savior gods common to Greco-Roman cults.

By Sereihan Alshammari

No, they did not die for a lie.

Think about this concept. You, Sereihan, profess Islam as your religion. This is great. To profess belief in Islam, you have to believe in every Messenger from God and that what each Messenger revealed is Truth. When the Qur'an was being revealed, its verses often challenged people to belief in the Seal of the Prophets and God. Disbelief is not salvation and belief leads to salvation. What this means then, is the slate is basically wiped clean. Pagans had the option to believe. Jews did. Christians did. Each one of these people had a decision to make. Believe or not believe.

Now, people of past ages had the same choice. They had the option to believe or not believe in the Revelation of Jesus Christ. This was a path to Salvation. I believe the Qur'an relates the story of the she-camel in the same context, as well as that of other Messengers.

If you do not believe that the Revelation of Jesus would not lead to salvation, then I feel you may not believe fully in the concepts repeatedly made within the Qur'an. This would mean then, your belief in Islam is at best, weak. All Messengers of God are Saviors.

Finally, you do not believe the disciples died while believing in a new Revelation, a new Revelation whose Messenger was hated during the time He lived?

[Wesley]

Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.

(Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, p. 85)

[StopS]

Is this in any way important? We know how deluded people take unreasonable decisions and make unjustified choices. People drive a car believing they will not be killed.
Do I know who died for what reason 2000 years ago?

[Wesley]

Is this in any way important? We know how deluded people take unreasonable decisions and make unjustified choices. People drive a car believing they will not be killed.
Do I know who died for what reason 2000 years ago?

I propose that at any tombstone, a small story is published, attached somewhere inside of the tombstone or on the backside, that allows a person to know exactly why someone died and their motivations leading up to that moment. Perhaps 2000 years later, there will be fewer mysteries.

[sereihan]

No, they did not die for a lie.

Think about this concept. You, Sereihan, profess Islam as your religion. This is great. To profess belief in Islam, you have to believe in every Messenger from God and that what each Messenger revealed is Truth. When the Qur'an was being revealed, its verses often challenged people to belief in the Seal of the Prophets and God. Disbelief is not salvation and belief leads to salvation. What this means then, is the slate is basically wiped clean. Pagans had the option to believe. Jews did. Christians did. Each one of these people had a decision to make. Believe or not believe.

Now, people of past ages had the same choice. They had the option to believe or not believe in the Revelation of Jesus Christ. This was a path to Salvation. I believe the Qur'an relates the story of the she-camel in the same context, as well as that of other Messengers.

If you do not believe that the Revelation of Jesus would not lead to salvation, then I feel you may not believe fully in the concepts repeatedly made within the Qur'an. This would mean then, your belief in Islam is at best, weak. All Messengers of God are Saviors.

Finally, you do not believe the disciples died while believing in a new Revelation, a new Revelation whose Messenger was hated during the time He lived?

You unfortunately missed my point in this post! Of course I believe Jesus pbuh lead people to salvation and anyone who do not believe that can't call himself Muslim!
I did not say in my article the disciples died for a lie! I said what is mentioned by Christians about the disciples of Jesus pbuh dying for this principle of Christ death and resurrection for salvation is a lie! The disciples of Jesus pbuh did not believe in this principle! They were Muslims!
"Some theologians note that members of the Jewish Christian movement had a close and lengthy association with Jesus, whereas Paul never met Jesus. In cases of conflict between the teachings of Paul and the beliefs of James' group, the latter might more accurately reflect Jesus' original teachings" The first three centuries of Christianity, as seen by religious liberals and historians! http://www.religious...rg/chr_chov.htm

Edited by sereihan, 11 July 2012 - 09:20 PM.

[abdullahfath]

Psalms 91 says that Jesus (pbuh) could not have been crucified. So is Psalms 91 altered or is the New Testament altered? If you say Psalms is altered then you have to subside that it is likely the New Testament is altered as well as they were canonized around the same time frame, if you say no then you have to agree that Jesus (pbuh) could not have been crucified.

[Wesley]

From Psalms, King James Version

22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

22:2 O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.

22:3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of israel.

22:4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.

22:5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.

22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.

22:7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,

22:8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.

22:9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.

22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.

22:11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.

22:12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.

22:13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.

22:14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.

22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.

22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

22:17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.

22:18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

22:19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.

22:20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.

22:21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.

22:22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.

22:23 Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of israel.

22:24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

22:25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.

22:26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.

22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

22:28 For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations.

22:29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

22:30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

22:31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

In Psalms 22, definitely is there a prophecy much like what happened to Jesus.

[sereihan]

Wesley, this is exactly what these Greek gentile Christians were doing! They go to OT prophecies to know what could have happened to Jesus pbuh! This is called by biblical scholars instead of history being prophesized they called prophecies "historized" meaning history written out of prophecies in retrospective way!

[Wesley]

So which is it? Abdullahfaith earlier taught there is a contradiction because the OT and NT were in contradiction. But then, when they are not in contradiction, it is because of fraud?

I cannot imagine why some Muslims will go to such great lengths to dispute what God, in the Qur'an, says came from God.

[sereihan]

Wesley, when you read the OT, you find extremely boring unnecessary details! Like the names of the people all types of weapons they used and so on and so forth! I personally whenever I read this I feel I cant continue! Please try it yourself! Can this be the word of God? Do you think God is extremely interested to preserve for us all these details about the Jewish history! This a history book of the Jews with some tradition of the true prophets mixed with so many false illogical events!

[Wesley]

Wesley, when you read the OT, you find extremely boring unnecessary details! Like the names of the people all types of weapons they used and so on and so forth! I personally whenever I read this I feel I cant continue! Please try it yourself! Can this be the word of God? Do you think God is extremely interested to preserve for us all these details about the Jewish history! This a history book of the Jews with some tradition of the true prophets mixed with so many false illogical events!

Why do you value the Sunnah and Hadith?

[sereihan]

Why do you value the Sunnah and Hadith?

It is the second source of Islam without it we cant understand the law of Islam!

[Younes]

Wesley, when you read the OT, you find extremely boring unnecessary details! Like the names of the people all types of weapons they used and so on and so forth! I personally whenever I read this I feel I cant continue! Please try it yourself! Can this be the word of God? Do you think God is extremely interested to preserve for us all these details about the Jewish history! This a history book of the Jews with some tradition of the true prophets mixed with so many false illogical events!

As-salamu 'alaikum wa rahmatu Allahi wa barakatuh

The fact that the Bible mentions the names of a lot of people, weapons etc. does not make it a non-Divine book. For all we know, that information could be very well be Divine.

The Prophet (pbuh) told us not to affirm what the people of the Book say in case we end up affirming something false but also not to reject anything lest we reject something that is actually true.

What makes the Bible false is the fact that it contradicts the Qur'an.

[sereihan]

As-salamu 'alaikum wa rahmatu Allahi wa barakatuh

The fact that the Bible mentions the names of a lot of people, weapons etc. does not make it a non-Divine book. For all we know, that information could be very well be Divine.

The Prophet (pbuh) told us not to affirm what the people of the Book say in case we end up affirming something false but also not to reject anything lest we reject something that is actually true.

What makes the Bible false is the fact that it contradicts the Qur'an.

Wa alikum assalm warahmatu Allah wabarakatuh
Yes brother, when I said you read in the OT extremely boring unnecessary details! I am saying they are "unnecessary" I did not say they are right or wrong! Unnecessary means without wisdom! Without a divine purpose which is guidance, the word of God is meant for guidance, so this is a defect! And this defect can't be attributed to God, so this cant be the word of God even if these details were right! it cant be divine!

Edited by sereihan, 14 July 2012 - 02:46 AM.

[Wesley]

It is the second source of Islam without it we cant understand the law of Islam!

But you have to admit that a great many of the Hadith have nothing to do with law but often are more of a historical context. Plus, the historical details provided in the Torah, which is part of the Book, is also a part of Islam, correct? I don't believe you have the ability to judge what is from God and not from God nor the authority to question why "unnecessary" details are in God's Revelation.

[Younes]

Wa alikum assalm warahmatu Allah wabarakatuh
Yes brother, when I said you read in the OT extremely boring unnecessary details! I am saying they are "unnecessary" I did not say they are right or wrong! Unnecessary means without wisdom! Without a divine purpose which is guidance, the word of God is meant for guidance, so this is a defect! And this defect can't be attributed to God, so this cant be the word of God even if these details were right! it cant be divine!

As-salamu 'alaikum wa rahmatu Allahi wa barakatuh

Well we will have to disagree. My point was those "unnecessary, boring details" can be also from God and there might be wisdom in it that you don't see.

[abdullahfath]

But you have to admit that a great many of the Hadith have nothing to do with law but often are more of a historical context. Plus, the historical details provided in the Torah, which is part of the Book, is also a part of Islam, correct? I don't believe you have the ability to judge what is from God and not from God nor the authority to question why "unnecessary" details are in God's Revelation.

There is some truth in this .... except ... that ( and I could be mistaken as I am still learning and may Allah forgive me if I am ) the Qur'an gives us a means of understanding these texts as to what is altered and what is not and that is to compare them to the Qur'an. If something is contrary to the Qur'an then it is not from Allah and was admitted by Allah but if it is fitting with the Qur'an then it is from Allah.

If you ever watch those lovely atheistic secular shows on the History Channel going over the Bible you will find time and again them talking about the known alterations to both New and Old Testaments. They did one particular piece where they spoke about how in ancient israel changing the words of the Torah was considered a common practice by the scribes and was a means of trimming things up. Many Jews will admit to this, orthodox and non, and yes the Bible has been altered and this is undisputed. The only real question on the New Testament is who altered it and why. Evidence of local religions around the area and other practices of the time lend themselves to the idea that many of the teachings of the modern church were indeed invented to appease the local converts so as to increase the religious size. A good example of this is the fact that the first god to have a three in one concept was in Hinduism which is vastly older than Christianity. The first god to be sacrificed to a tree was Horus in Egypt. Then, of course, there is the numerous ties to Mithra.

[sereihan]

As-salamu 'alaikum wa rahmatu Allahi wa barakatuh

Well we will have to disagree. My point was those "unnecessary, boring details" can be also from God and there might be wisdom in it that you don't see.

See brother, earlier on I was not talking from a Muslim point of view! I was stimulating a non Muslim to think! How can this be the word of God? For example if you find a speech that is not decent you say this can't be the word of God even if the meaning is true!
From Muslim point of view we can't call the bible the word of God or "divine book" as you stated regardless it contradicts or it does not contradict the Quran! If there is something in the bible consistent with the Quran we are commanded to accept it as true but this does not mean accepting it as the word of God! Any speech to be considered the word of God there are many conditions must be fulfilled which is not the time for it here, I give one example: Hadith we don’t call it the word of God though it was revealed to the prophet pbuh from Allah swt because only the meaning is form Allah swt while all divine books that Allah revealed before including the torah and the gospel are literally from Allah swt not only the meaning, every one is the word of Allah swt which Allah swt truly spoken uncreated

Conclusion: any part of the bible even if it was with wisdom we as Muslims we can't call it "divine book" as you stated though it is vague expression! I would prefer the expression "the word of God", so here I am giving exclusion criteria why it is not the word of God! Not the opposite!

[sereihan]

But you have to admit that a great many of the Hadith have nothing to do with law but often are more of a historical context. Plus, the historical details provided in the Torah, which is part of the Book, is also a part of Islam, correct? I don't believe you have the ability to judge what is from God and not from God nor the authority to question why "unnecessary" details are in God's Revelation.

"But you have to admit that a great many of the Hadith have nothing to do with law but often are more of a historical context. Plus, the historical details provided in the Torah, which is part of the Book, is also a part of Islam, correct?"

yes correct. but not all detials and not all stories like David pbuh commiting adultery is not believable in Islam!

"I don't believe you have the ability to judge what is from God and not from God nor the authority to question why "unnecessary" details are in God's Revelation"

I disagree with you here,
Every person has the right and the authority to question and investigate because the word of God is meant for you and me and every one and the first thing Islam came with is to think! Liberate minds is even before believing in Allah swt and this is why Islam superseded all other ways of life! There is nothing in Islam that is irrational; if it is irrational then it is not from God!

Edited by sereihan, 14 July 2012 - 02:10 PM.