16 replies to this topic

[John Paul]

Absolutely not; check out this refutation...

[Wesley]

The Qur'an never claims to fulfill this prophecy, either.

[abdullahfath]

salaam alaiykum,

as I former student of theology I don't even know where to begin with this. First of all in any good theological school the first thing they will teach you (protestant or Catholic) is that the King James Bible is faulted even according to Christian scholars. King James ( a known lunatic who believed who was speaking to God directly sitting in a chair across from him) admitted that the Bible was written more for its eloquent sound than accuracy. These gentlemen are quoting from that same Bible.

With that out of the way lets review a Bible a bit more trusted among theological studies since that is the format we wish to go on here.

⁹ Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? ¹⁰ Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. ¹¹ Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. ¹² Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. ¹³ And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. ¹⁴ You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
¹⁵ “If you love me, keep my commands. ¹⁶ And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— ¹⁷ the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be^[c] in you. ¹⁸ I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. ¹⁹ Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. ²⁰ On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. ²¹ Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

That is the New International Version, by the way. First of all, a lot of the Bible has been altered but I will save that argument for another day. What is the point of this entire speech? KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS! It's called reading in context.

Now that that portion is out of the way answer this if the "holy spirit" is whom he is speaking of that he will "send" then why was the holy spirit here BEFORE Jesus (pbuh) was? Or do you not know the story of the leaping of John the Baptist in the womb of Elizabeth?

During that time people spoke differently than we do now and not just in language but in the manner of how things were put together. If a teacher comes and teaches you something does he not live on through the teachings and if he is teaching of something such as the heavenly Father would it not make sense that by remembering his teachings we would be glorifying the Father by following the "son" or rather the teachings?

How can I prove this? By reading!

http://www.biblegate... 15&version=NIV

[abdullahfath]

15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. ² He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes^[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. ³ You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. ⁴ Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.⁵ “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. ⁶ If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. ⁷ If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. ⁸ This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples. ⁹ “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. ¹⁰ If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. ¹¹ I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. ¹² My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. ¹³ Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. ¹⁴ You are my friends if you do what I command. ¹⁵ I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. ¹⁶ You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit —fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. ¹⁷ This is my command: Love each other.

What does verse 7 say? Exactly! "my words remain in you" What does verse 10 say? "If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands"

So then what is the fruit? following the commandments!

“When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father —the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me. ²⁷ And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.

So what of this advocate? Well what are his qualities? According to the Bible:

[abdullahfath]

John 16

New International Version (NIV)
16 “All this I have told you so that you will not fall away. ² They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. ³ They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me. ⁴ I have told you this, so that when their time comes you will remember that I warned you about them. I did not tell you this from the beginning because I was with you, ⁵ but now I am going to him who sent me. None of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ ⁶ Rather, you are filled with grief because I have said these things. ⁷ But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. ⁸ When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: ⁹ about sin, because people do not believe in me; ¹⁰ about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; ¹¹ and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
¹² “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. ¹³ But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. ¹⁴ He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. ¹⁵ All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

the real key qualities becomes apparent in verse 12 and onwards. "...he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come."

The "holy spirit" was already on Earth as it was with Mary. Therefore he cant be the holy spirit. Why? Look at John 16:7! That nullifies it being the "holy spirit" "But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

So who claimed to reveal all truth? who did not speak except what he was told to speak?

Now since we are going along the Biblical verses here how about you reading a few? first read Luke 4:1-13

4 Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, left the Jordan and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, ² where for forty days he was tempted^[a] by the devil. He ate nothing during those days, and at the end of them he was hungry.
³ The devil said to him, “If you are the Son of God, tell this stone to become bread.”
⁴ Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone.’^[b]”
⁵ The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. ⁶ And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendor; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. ⁷ If you worship me, it will all be yours.”
⁸ Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.’^[c]”
⁹ The devil led him to Jerusalem and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down from here. ¹⁰ For it is written:

“‘He will command his angels concerning you
to guard you carefully;
¹¹ they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’^[d]”
¹² Jesus answered, “It is said: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’^[e]”
¹³ When the devil had finished all this tempting, he left him until an opportune time.

Now obviously the book of Luke, according to the Bible, indicates that Psalms 91 is about Jesus (pbuh) so what does Psalms 91 say? Read it for yourself:

[abdullahfath]

Psalm 91


¹ Whoever dwells in the shelter of the Most High
will rest in the shadow of the Almighty.^[a]
2 I will say of the Lord, “He is my refuge and my fortress,
my God, in whom I trust.”

³ Surely he will save you
from the fowler’s snare
and from the deadly pestilence.
⁴ He will cover you with his feathers,
and under his wings you will find refuge;
his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart.
⁵ You will not fear the terror of night,
nor the arrow that flies by day,
⁶ nor the pestilence that stalks in the darkness,
nor the plague that destroys at midday.
⁷ A thousand may fall at your side,
ten thousand at your right hand,
but it will not come near you.
⁸ You will only observe with your eyes
and see the punishment of the wicked.

⁹ If you say, “The Lord is my refuge,”
and you make the Most High your dwelling,
¹⁰ no harm will overtake you,
no disaster will come near your tent.
¹¹ For he will command his angels concerning you
to guard you in all your ways;
¹² they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.
¹³ You will tread on the lion and the cobra;
you will trample the great lion and the serpent.

¹⁴ “Because he^[b] loves me,” says the Lord, “I will rescue him;
I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name.
¹⁵ He will call on me, and I will answer him;
I will be with him in trouble,
I will deliver him and honor him.
¹⁶ With long life I will satisfy him
and show him my salvation. ”

Now what does it say in verses 14-16?


¹⁴ “Because he^[b] loves me,” says the Lord, “I will rescue him;
I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name.
¹⁵ He will call on me, and I will answer him;
I will be with him in trouble,
I will deliver him and honor him.
¹⁶ With long life I will satisfy him
and show him my salvation. ”

So if Jesus (pbuh) died on the cross as Christians claim then the Bible is flawed by their own admission and Psalms 91 cannot be about Jesus (pbuh) and therefore the Old Testament is tainted as well which takes you back to can you trust the Bible?

If you believe that this is true and there is any truth remaining in the Bible then logic must dictate that all of the Bible is flawed or only some of it, if only some of it then you must admit that it makes more sense that a single thing was added rather than several which alters the entire story thus either psalms and luke are in question entirely or the crucifixion is misunderstood and Jesus was rescued by the Father as Psalms promised

[abdullahfath]

Also, if what Christianity teaches is true and Jesus (pbuh) is the only way to salvation that he died for our sins that we might have salvation then how is it that others made it into heaven before his time?

¹¹ As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind. ¹² Elisha saw this and cried out, “My father! My father! The chariots and horsemen of israel!” And Elisha saw him no more. Then he took hold of his garment and tore it in two.

And of course Enoch in Genesis 5 who was taken away by God

My point in all of this? Actually read the Bible in context and you will begin to find the truth. I did, and I was a devoted Christian in a Christian college.

[Wesley]

From Psalms, King James Version

22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

22:2 O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.

22:3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of israel.

22:4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.

22:5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.

22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.

22:7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,

22:8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.

22:9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.

22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.

22:11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.

22:12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.

22:13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.

22:14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.

22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.

22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

22:17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.

22:18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

22:19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.

22:20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.

22:21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.

22:22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.

22:23 Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of israel.

22:24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

22:25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.

22:26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.

22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

22:28 For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations.

22:29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

22:30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

22:31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

In Psalms 22, definitely is there a prophecy much like what happened to Jesus.

[WeAreComming]

Ahmad Deedat; is the best at this. Also Dr.Zakir Naik is good too.

His book titled "The Choice" explains this in great details.

[Wesley]

Ahmad Deedat; is the best at this. Also Dr.Zakir Naik is good too.

His book titled "The Choice" explains this in great details.

This is the difference between an religious evangelist and a Messenger of God. An evangelist says "mine is better than yours" with pomp and no humility. The end result is divisions and animosity. A Messenger of God says "What God revealed is true, but men (like evangelists) have corrupted their meanings. Here, let me guide you again."

I will never respect any evangelist who acts like Ahmad Deedat or like Benny Hinn. It is a disgrace to God's religion.

I will always follow who God sends. I am brave enough to at least investigate the truth and listen to one who claims a Revelation to determine if the Revelation is for the betterment of mankind or not. Ahmad Deedat did never seek unity with his combative, arrogant style.

[abdullahfath]

did you not bother to read what I already said on the King James version of the Bible? Do I really need to repeat myself on this?

*rubs bridge of nose*

I will take the time to explain this verse as well though. Even though my previous inquiry went unaddressed

[abdullahfath]

For the director of music. To the tune of “The Doe of the Morning.” A psalm of David.


¹ My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
² My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.<sup>[b]

3</sup> Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one israel praises.^[c]
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
⁵ To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.

⁶ But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
⁷ All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
⁸ “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
“let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him.”

⁹ Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
¹⁰ From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.

¹¹ Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.

¹² Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
¹³ Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
¹⁴ I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
¹⁵ My mouth^[d] is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.

¹⁶ Dogs surround me,
a pack of villains encircles me;
they pierce^[e] my hands and my feet.
¹⁷ All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
¹⁸ They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.

¹⁹ But you, Lord, do not be far from me.
You are my strength; come quickly to help me.
²⁰ Deliver me from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.
²¹ Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save me from the horns of the wild oxen.

²² I will declare your name to my people;
in the assembly I will praise you.
²³ You who fear the Lord, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of israel!
²⁴ For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.

²⁵ From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you^[f] I will fulfill my vows.
²⁶ The poor will eat and be satisfied;
those who seek the Lord will praise him—
may your hearts live forever!

²⁷ All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the Lord,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,
²⁸ for dominion belongs to the Lord
and he rules over the nations.
²⁹ All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.
³⁰ Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.
³¹ They will proclaim his righteousness,
declaring to a people yet unborn:
He has done it!

David was a poet and a king. In ancient israel the Psalms were not just a book but also a means of praise, some were prophetic while others were simply a means of praise to be used during worship. David was called the son of God, as if the first born. (psalms 89) David was deeply troubled for his kingdom and for himself, he had according to scripture made many mistakes as a man yet here if we read it in full context and put it to a tune as it suggests we find it would indeed be a beautiful hymn.

Now if you insist on making it prophetic you must realize that the Lord at this time is recognized as the one God first of all and Jesus (pbuh) certainly never needed fear a sword but David did now didn't he? Note the use of the word "me" consistently. He does not appear to be referring to some third party but simply himself. Think with logic. If a friend of yours wrote this you would assume he was talking about himself and his relationship with the creator.

[WeAreComming]

This is the difference between an religious evangelist and a Messenger of God. An evangelist says "mine is better than yours" with pomp and no humility. The end result is divisions and animosity. A Messenger of God says "What God revealed is true, but men (like evangelists) have corrupted their meanings. Here, let me guide you again."

I will never respect any evangelist who acts like Ahmad Deedat or like Benny Hinn. It is a disgrace to God's religion.

I will always follow who God sends. I am brave enough to at least investigate the truth and listen to one who claims a Revelation to determine if the Revelation is for the betterment of mankind or not. Ahmad Deedat did never seek unity with his combative, arrogant style.

I didn't understand what you said:
yu don't like his tone??
is it this :
http://www.youtube[dot]com/watch?v=UVmrFs-SaNg&feature=related

Edited by WeAreComming, 14 July 2012 - 04:25 AM.

[Wesley]

David was a poet and a king. In ancient israel the Psalms were not just a book but also a means of praise, some were prophetic while others were simply a means of praise to be used during worship. David was called the son of God, as if the first born. (psalms 89) David was deeply troubled for his kingdom and for himself, he had according to scripture made many mistakes as a man yet here if we read it in full context and put it to a tune as it suggests we find it would indeed be a beautiful hymn.

Now if you insist on making it prophetic you must realize that the Lord at this time is recognized as the one God first of all and Jesus (pbuh) certainly never needed fear a sword but David did now didn't he? Note the use of the word "me" consistently. He does not appear to be referring to some third party but simply himself. Think with logic. If a friend of yours wrote this you would assume he was talking about himself and his relationship with the creator.

And David never had his hands and feet pierced nor his clothes ripped off and his vesture lashed, nor was he shown upon the crowds. All the people of the Earth did not hear of the Lord by the time the Messenger King David ascended to Heaven. The first Revelation to be heard throughout the world was that of the Son of Man, Jesus. The final nation to hear the Gospel was somewhere in the 1800s.

Next, as a Muslim, you believe that there is no distinction between the Messengers and you also believe it is the Holy Spirit which sends the Messenger the Message at its most simple terms. Jesus was strengthened by the same Spirit which taught the Seal of the Prophets the Qur'an. You have the same Holy Spirit but different human vehicles and personalities giving mankind God's Revelation. David, being one of the Messenger's of God, can definitely say "me" and still be referring to himself and other Messengers as all have the same spirit from God. Notice in the Qur'an how many times the word "We" is used when referring to the Godhead. We is for a singular yet collective entity. 1 God. 1 Holy Spirit. Many human bodies. 1 Religion.

Psalms 22 is prophetic which is why one of Jesus's final words was the very beginning of this Psalm. Not every Psalm may have referred to Jesus but you can be 100% sure that every Psalm applied to some Messenger in some way. It is not up to us humans to pick and choose which is true or not true. If God says its true, then believe it even if you do not understand it. It's called Faith. It's called God's religion, not some human made religion full of dogmas and traditions which distract us from God's Truth.

[abdullahfath]

I agree with bits of pieces of your statements. I do particularly agree with the last sentence. I do not, however, and will never agree that Jesus (pbuh) was crucified nor do I agree with the initial post of this thread. I do believe, though, that many have lost sight of the bigger picture of living in righteousness and have become so overly focused on this practice or that ritual that they have lost sight of living the life that Allah (swt) wants us to live and yes I mean this for Muslims as well.

[Wesley]

I do believe, though, that many have lost sight of the bigger picture of living in righteousness and have become so overly focused on this practice or that ritual that they have lost sight of living the life that Allah (swt) wants us to live and yes I mean this for Muslims as well.

How do the leaders of a religion and all the others regain that sight? I believe this is the biggest challenge for all religion in today's age. Abdullahfath, I do hope your desire to live righteousness leads to a blessed journey.

[abdullahfath]

I try everyday to help out those in need as I am able