3 replies to this topic

[andalusi]

from Muslims-Christian dialogue, book, amazing book irecommend it to you
http://www.sultan.or...tianialogue.pdf

NOW TO THE QUESTION: WAS JESUS (pbuh) CRUCIFIED?

M=muslim
C=Christian

M. The Holy Qur’an states in Surah 4:v157 that Jesus was not
crucified: “And their (Jews) boasting: ‘we killed Messiah Jesus,
son of Mary, the Apostle of Allah,’ but they (Jews) killed him
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not, nor crucified him.” Do you still believe that he died on the
cross?

C. Yes, Christians believe he died and was then resurrected.

M. It is recorded in the Bible that nobody saw the moment he
was resurrected. They found the sepulchre empty where Jesus
was laid down and made the conclusion that he was resurrected
because the disciples and other witnesses saw him alive after the
alleged crucifixion. Could it not be possible, as the Qu’ran claims
that he didn’t die on the cross?

C. Where is the proof then?

M. Let us see passages in the Bible supporting this evidence. Do
you give more weight to what Jesus said or to hearsay of the
disciples, apostles and other witnesses?

C. Of course more to what Jesus said!

M. That is in accordance with what Jesus said in (Matthew 10:24)
“The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his
lord.”

C. But Jesus himself said that he would rise from the dead (Luke
24:46) and said unto them, “Thus it is written, and thus it
behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third
day.”

M. Suffering is often exaggerated in the Bible and termed “dead”
as Paul said (I Corinthians 15:31): “I protest by your rejoicing
which I have in Christ, I die daily” (i.e. I suffer daily). Here are
some of the proofs from the Bible:
1. On the cross Jesus beseeched God for help (Matthew 27:46)
“My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” And in
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Luke 22:42: Saying: “Father if thou be willing, remove this
cup from me, nevertheless not my will but Thine be done.”
(This cup is the cup of death.)
2. Jesus’s prayer not to die on the cross was accepted by God,
according to Luke, Hebrews and James. Then how could he
still die on the cross? (Luke 22:43): “And there appeared an
angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.” (Hebrews
5:7): “Who in the days of his flesh, when he, Jesus had
offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and
tears unto Him that was able to save him from death, and
was “heard” in that he feared.” It means that an angel
assured him that God would not let him die. The word
“heard” whenever it occurs in the Bible means that the
prayer was accepted.
Jesus’s prayers were “heard,” meaning that it was answered in a
positive way by God WHO SAVED HIM FROM DEATH. (James
5:16): “... The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth
much.” Jesus himself said in (Matthew 7:7.10) “Ask, and it shall
be given you, seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be
opened unto you; for every one that asketh receiveth, and he that
seeketh, findeth, and to him who knocketh it shall be opened. Or
what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give
him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?”
Question: If God, according to Jesus, definitely accepts and
answers a righteous man’s prayer, then surely Jesus’s prayers
were also answered, including the one not to die on the cross.
Was he not a chosen one of God? How could his prayer be
rejected, and he still had to die on the cross after he prayed for
safety and was informed that his prayer was “heard”? It does
not make sense. Look to the example Jesus (pbuh) uses. If a son
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asks a father for bread will he give him a stone? Definitely not!
So it is illogical to believe that God did not answer his prayer for
being saved when we all know that he was innocent and was
“heard.”
1. His legs were not broken by the Roman soldiers (John
19:32-33) “Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the
first, and of the other which was crucified with him. But
when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already,
they brake not his legs,” Can you rely on these soldiers for
pronouncing him dead?

C. I cannot say.

M. Is it not probable that they wanted to save Jesus as they
found him innocent? Even Pilate said he did not want the
blood of an innocent man on his hands and he took a bowl
of water and washed his hands symbolically off “this
innocent man’s blood” before the blood thirsty Jews.
4. If Jesus had died on the cross, his blood would clot and
no blood would come out of his body when his side was
pierced. Ask any medical doctor of this. The Gospel states
clearly that blood and water came out; (John 19:34) “But one
of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith
came there out blood and water.” So medically and
scientifically it is proved that he was alive even according to
John.
5. When the Pharisees asked Jesus for a sign to prove that he
was a true messenger of God he answered: “For as Jonas
was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly, so shall
the son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of
the earth.” (Matthew 12:40). Disregard now the time factor,
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which were also not three days and three nights but one day
(Saturday, daytime only) and two nights (Friday night and
Saturday night). The important criteria of the sign are: AS
JONAH WAS! Jonah was alive in the belly of the whale,
and in the same way Jesus was ALIVE in the belly of the
earth.

M. Do you agree that Jonas was still alive when he was vomited
out of the belly of the whale?

C. Yes! It says so in the Bible.

M. So the sign was fulfilled of him being alive as he prophesied.
Jesus himself stated that he did not die on the cross. Early
Sunday morning Mary Magdalene went to the sepulchre, which
was empty. She saw somebody standing who looked like a
gardener. She recognized him after a conversation to be Jesus
and wanted to touch him. Jesus said (John 20:17): “Touch me not;
for I am not yet ascended to my Father... “Touch me not,”
perhaps because the fresh wounds would hurt him. “I am not
yet ascended to my Father,” means that he was not dead but
still alive. If anybody dies, then he only ascends to GOD. This
was the strongest proof admitted by Jesus himself. After the
alleged crucifixion the disciples thought that he was not the
same Jesus in body but spiritualized, because resurrected bodies
are spiritualized.

C. Interruption. How could you be sure that resurrected bodies
are spiritualized?

M. That is what Jesus himself said in the Bible: that they are
equal to angels.

C. Where about in the Bible?

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M. In Luke 20:34-36: “And answering said unto them, the
children of the world marry, and are given in marriage. But they,
which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and then
resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in
marriage: Neither can they die any more for they are equal unto
the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the
resurrection.”
Then Jesus convinced them by letting them touch his hands and
feet, that he was the same person. When they did not believe
him, he asked for meat to eat to prove to them that he still ate
like any living individual. Read Luke 24:36-41: “And as they (the
disciples) thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them,
and saith unto them, “Peace be unto you”. (Exactly as a Muslim
greets) But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed that
they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, “Why are ye
troubled? And why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my
hands and my feet, that it is I myself, handle me and see, for a
spirit hath no flesh and bones as ye see me have.” And when
he had thus spoken, he showed them his hands and his feet. And
while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto
them, “Have ye here any meat?” And they gave him a piece of
broiled fish, and of a honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat
before them.” Living people eat food, not dead people or
resurrected ones, as Jesus stated in Luke. If you still believe that
he died on the cross, then he was a false Prophet and accursed of
God according to Deuteronomy 13:5: “And that prophet, or that
dreamer of dreams shall be put to death”.
(Deuteronomy 21:22-23): “And if a man have committed a sin
worthy of death, and he be put to death, and thou hang him on a
tree his body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou
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shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is
accursed of God) that thy land be not defiled which the Lord thy
God giveth thee for an inheritance.”
To believe in his death on the cross is to discredit his
prophethood. The Jews maintained to have killed Jesus on the
cross and consequently portrayed him to be false in his claim to
prophethood. The Church has imposed the doctrine of
crucifixion on the Christians because of Paul, and says it is
necessary for their redemption of sin, and consequently has to
accept the accursedness of Jesus, too. But as stated before by
Jesus: “The son shall not bear the inequity of the father, and
neither the father shall bear the inequity of the son”; and said
further “that they worship him uselessly believing the false
doctrines made by men.”
This doctrine opposes the Bible’s teaching in Hosea 6:v6: “For I
desired mercy and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God
more than burnt-offerings.” It also opposes Jesus’ own teaching
(Matthew 9:13) “But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will
have mercy, and not sacrifice...” Again Jesus said (Matthew
12:7) “But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have
mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not, have condemned the
guiltless.” Can you see? Jesus said twice that he would have
“mercy” from God. The Church’s Doctrine or teaching is
condemning Jesus, an innocent prophet to an accursed death
on Paul’s words without any proof whatsoever. Surely
Christians believe that Jesus was guiltless, was he not? Use your
intelligence to ponder on the words of Jesus (pbuh).

C. Of course Jesus was guiltless! But why does the Church force
us to believe in the resurrection then?
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M. It was Paul who taught the resurrection (Acts 17:18): “... And
some (Jews) said, what will this babbler say? Others said he
(Paul) seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods, because he
preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.” Paul, who
never saw or even met Jesus, also admitted that the resurrection
was his gospel (II Timothy 2:8) “Remember that Jesus
Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according
to my gospel.” He was also the first who declared Jesus as Son
of God (Acts 9:20): “And straightway he (Paul) preached Christ
in the synagogues, that he is the son of God.” Read the words
carefully. The Jews called Paul a “babbler”, meaning a
mentally sick person. Also he was setting forth “strange
Gods”. The Jews worshiped only One God and that is why
they called Paul a “babbler” and threw him out of the
synagogues for teaching the concept of “son of god” which
they knew was blasphemy. So trinity in Christianity is not a
teaching of Jesus, but of Paul. The so-called Christians are
following Paul and not Jesus.

C. But Mark (16:19) mentioned that Jesus was raised up to
heaven and sat on the right hand of God: “So then after the Lord
had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat
on the right hand of God.”

M. As I told you under the discussion of the Holy Bible that
Mark 16, verses 9-20, were expunged in certain Bibles. See
remark in the Revised Standard Version, the New American
Standard Bible and the New World Translation of the Holy
Scriptures of the Jehovah’s Witnesses Church. If you still believe
that Jesus is divine because he was raised up to heaven, why
don’t you accept other Prophets as divine who were also raised
up to heaven?
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C. I am not aware of others. Who were they?

M. Elijah (II Kings 2:11-12) “... and Elijah went up by a
whirlwind into heaven. And Elisha saw it, and he cried ... And
he saw him no more.” Also God took Enoch to heaven (Genesis
5:24) “And Enoch walked with God, and he was not; for God
took him.” This is also repeated in Hebrews 11:5. “By faith Enoch
was translated that he should not see death and was not found,
because God translated him; for before his translation he had this
testimony that he pleased God.”

in the book you can read about:

Contents
Part One - Beginning of the Dialogue.

1. The first contact between a Christian & a Muslim……... 7
2. The Holy Bible.…………………………………………… 22
3. The Doctrine of the Trinity……………………………… 35
4. The Doctrine of the Divinity of Jesus Christ……….….. 45
5. The Doctrine of the Divine Sonship of Jesus Christ….. 55
6. Was Jesus Crucified?………………………………..…… 59
7. The Doctrine of Atonement and Original Sin…………. 67
8. Both Ismael and Isaac were Blessed……………………. 72
9. Criterion of the Prophet by Jeremiah……………..…… 79
10. Until Shiloh come……………………………………..…. 80
11. Bakka Is Mecca or Makkah……………………………….81
12. The House of My Glory………………………………..… 82
13. Chariot of ###### and Chariot of Camels……..………… 84
14. The Prophet Like Unto Moses……….………………..… 85
15. My Servant, Messenger and Elect…………………….… 88
16. King David Called Him “My Lord”…………..……….. 90
17. Art Thou That Prophet………………………………...… 91
18. Baptizing With the Holy Ghost and With Fire………… 92
19. The Least in the Kingdom of Heaven…………………... 92
20. Blessed Are the Peacemakers…………………………… 93
21. The Comforter……………………………………….…… 94
22. Revelation to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)]…………… 97
23. Verdict of non-muslims……………………………...….. 99

[The Shrew]

Is this book available in a pdf and if so can you provide a link? I am sorry but this christian sounded quite uneducated in scripture. Not even knowing the other cases of assumption into heaven. As for other proofs of Jesus being crusified. The Catholic Church holds these articles. Veronica's Veil and the Shroud of Turin. If you goole the words several articles come up here and here are wiki lins. Though I am not a wikipedia fan. Here is a pdf article on Veronica's Veil. Here is another article on the Shroud of Turin.

[andalusi]

Is this book available in a pdf and if so can you provide a link? I am sorry but this christian sounded quite uneducated in scripture. Not even knowing the other cases of assumption into heaven. As for other proofs of Jesus being crusified. The Catholic Church holds these articles. Veronica's Veil and the Shroud of Turin. If you goole the words several articles come up here and here are wiki lins. Though I am not a wikipedia fan. Here is a pdf article on Veronica's Veil. Here is another article on the Shroud of Turin.

i have provided the book in PDF a the top of the previous post, how could you miss that?

here again
http://www.sultan.or...tianialogue.pdf

[The Shrew]

i have provided the book in PDF a the top of the previous post, how could you miss that?

here again
http://www.sultan.or...tianialogue.pdf

That was my fault sorry I got bussy reading what you had posted and skiped right over the link.