16 replies to this topic

[Padre5]

This YouTube video is by one of my personal favorites, P.Z. Meyers. It starts with the idea that the so-called BTK serial killer, who was (and probably still is!) the embodiment of evil, was also a "good Christian." The question he raises is whether Christianity can lead to real evil.
I believe it too often has! Good Christians, throughout history, have slaughtered each other because of religion, butchered "natives" because they wouldn't convert or because they wanted the land where they lived, and still stand silently as their leaders preach hatred for gays, and sometimes others they hate. They also try to pass laws, at least in America, to force the teaching of nonsense to children, and require prayer. To this I shout, keep the heck out of the classrooms of my grandchildren!
Most of you believe, as I do, that the treatment of the captive people in the so-called "occupied territories" by the israelis is evil, clearly prompted by religion.
Now, I give you all the task of citing the evil caused by Muslims, AND ask yourself how much Islam has CAUSED that evil. Please search your consciences, and try to be really honest!

Edited by Padre5, 31 August 2012 - 08:52 PM.

[dot]

If you want to turn this discussion into a decent study of a comparison of evil done by different religions, I suggest that you follow a few simple rules, like:

• How did a specific religion make out of nations. Did it change them to a better peaceful life, towards themselves and , more importantly towards other nations? or did it encourage them to do evil?
• Focus on nations, or the main stream of followers of religions, not small groups of extremists (as there are extremists among all religion non-religion followers alike).
• Focus on the behavior of nations during their periods of might and power, not during their weak periods in history (because your true color shows more clearly when you have the upper hand, while the weak and oppressed can turn suicidal and make wrong actions out of desperation).
• See if the evil done by a nation is supported by divine text, or man-made text mistaken for the words of god.

Following those suggested rules would help reach a better understanding, before judging all religions as the source of evil. We Muslims know that whatever good comes from our Creator, and whatever evil comes from us humans. I'm sure if you give this topic enough study that you would come closer to that belief.

[dot]

I hardly watched the first 5 minutes of that video. I'm sorry to say this, but that man is more in the stand-up comedian side, than the academic side. Conference? this guy pleases his fans by insulting religion followers, fans who giggle at every swearing that clown commits. And all that to speak of a maniac serial killer who happened to be a Christian? What.. there are no atheist serial killers out there? why any of those LOL shrieky squawker audience mention to him names who committed crimes against humanity, like Alfred Kinsey, Napoleon Bonaparte, Than Shwe, Kim Jong Il, Jeffrey Dahmer, Jim Jones, Benito Mussolini, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot or Joseph Stalin who all happened to be atheists?

[Padre5]

Now, now, Dot! Jim Jones was a Christian Minister, and all Kinsey did was study American sexuality. Mussolini was raised Catholic, and Stalin was raised in the Russian Orthodox Church. While there are certainly many evil atheists, I bet you can't tell me how lack of belief in God promotes evil. What is the connection? The relationship between bin Laden's acts and his religion are pretty clear, and it doesn't help Islam to JUST say he was wrong. He became what he was because of what he was taught as a boy growing up in Saudi Arabia, even though we Americans did use that upbringing to make him fight the Russians. It was still his understanding of the Qu'ran and the hadiths that justified him, in his own mind, to do the evil that he did! Can you point to one atheist that did evil acts BECAUSE he or she was an atheist? My point, of course, is that it is very easy to find evil conduct throughout history rooted in religious belief or actually directed or caused by religious bodies! Besides objecting to efforts to force religion on us, what have we atheists ever done to anybody else?

[dot]

That wasn't my point. I was just saying that if we took individuals as a reference, there are evil individuals in every race, religion or lack of. That is why I suggested to set individuals aside, and focus your interesting study on the behavior of nations. Like for example the difference between what the crusades have committed in Palestine, compared to what Saladin and his Muslim army did there later. Or the behavior of Muslims, when at their might and glory, towards the non-Muslims in Spain, compared to what the Japanese did, when at their turn of might and glory, to the Chinese people, or what the German did, when at their turn of might and glory, to Europe, or what the Europeans, when at their turn, did to the non-Christian natives in America, or what their grandsons are committing in recent history in Vietnam, Iraq or right now in Afghanistan.. or what the zionist Jews did and is still doing to the Palestinians, supported by the Christian west, backed up by falsified Jewish and Christian religion books.Those incidents reflect how religion text books, when falsified by man, can influence its followers and lead them to commit unspeakable atrocities, while in the case of authentic divine text books it commits its followers to spread peace and equality among all humans.

[Padre5]

Very good and valid point, friend Dot! Well said. However, I can't help but point out that nations are ruled by men! Is it not the men who rule who are evil? And perhaps the inhabitants who let them rule? It's a complex question. Now, how do we get others to join the discussion? You and I are having fun and sharing ideas, but is anybody else listening?

[MarineLiner]

Now, how do we get others to join the discussion? You and I are having fun and sharing ideas, but is anybody else listening?

No padre, I am not. Because my device can't reproduce the sound of your conversation here. But I am reading.
My problem is I can't post reply because have not enough knowledge to make it.
But I get lessons here. Thank you.

[AHMAD_73]

Now, now, Dot! Jim Jones was a Christian Minister, and all Kinsey did was study American sexuality. Mussolini was raised Catholic, and Stalin was raised in the Russian Orthodox Church. While there are certainly many evil atheists

is Stalin a Christian or an Atheist?!!
i'm not sure how did Stalin been raised up as an Orthodox christian, how many times did he attend sunday lessons?!! or how many times did he read the bible?!!! while what is a sure that he was a devoted Atheist youth and grown up, he did fight against religion, all kinds of religions including his father's. he was in a leading position in the comunist party since 1922, shared in closing all kinds of worshiping places since 1925, dishonoring religions and religious leaders..........in a strange step that shows how cheap man he was or shows a side of his Atheism Ideology, he ordered the re-opining of the churchs and "honoring" the religion and it's follower in 1943.....only to have their support and encoureging effect in the II WW!!!!! he turned down all of these treaties after the war!!!!!! he oppressed and killed millions of his own people (even after winning the war)

i like to ask, if not his Atheism, what was the motivating force for his oppressions and terrorism?!!

The relationship between bin Laden's acts and his religion are pretty clear, and it doesn't help Islam to JUST say he was wrong. He became what he was because of what he was taught as a boy growing up in Saudi Arabia, even though we Americans did use that upbringing to make him fight the Russians. It was still his understanding of the Qu'ran and the hadiths that justified him, in his own mind, to do the evil that he did! Can you point to one atheist that did evil acts BECAUSE he or she was an atheist? My point, of course, is that it is very easy to find evil conduct throughout history rooted in religious belief or actually directed or caused by religious bodies! Besides objecting to efforts to force religion on us, what have we atheists ever done to anybody else?

allow me, i can't see any relevant relations in your post, Islam doesn't support opression nor agression nor killing civilians even in war time and area (Dar-u Alharb)......a fare survay of the 1433 years many non- Moslem weastern historian reached that "Moslems are the most just fighters ever", i can refer you to A. J Toynbee, James A. Michener, Lamartine, George Bernard Shaw .... etc. you can't deduce a fare judjment on a group of 1,6 billion of people existed for 1400 years based on the actions of a small group for few years. answer me plz, where were the Islamic terrorism before Ben Laden? or let's say before Israeli occupation to the Muslem land and the unlimited weastern support to it?!!!

let me tell you in brief, what, Islam mainly tell about wars:
1- we have to deal peacefully to those who did the same to us.......
2- in a war, if the other side leaned to peace (just showed the slietest intention to peace), we should agree.....
3- we have to support the weak and oppresed people (what ever their religion)......
4- we have to fight the Moslem group who broke a peace treaty with another Moslem group....
show me what is bad about that and what is the Athiests' corrections for it?
what is the atheists' suggestions to spread peace and justice?!!
who talks in name of Atheists? where is their reference to turn to in case of different opinions?

do the fights of Ben Laden and other Muslems against the USSR, after their agression, oppression and occupation to the Afghani Land is "Terrorism"?!! if it's in your point of view, Let me say it isn't from Islamic point of view (referto 3) nor any justice or humintarian system (i believe the US used to proud of their fight against the Serbs!!!). while after the war ends, the Moslem have to stop and began re-constructing the towns and growing up lands. many many fighters and colegues of Bin Laden did so...

Islam taught us human is the ultimate and the most honored creation, Allah created. Allah created evry thing in this universe and earth, just for human, that killing one innocent human (what ever his religion) = the killing of All people, isn't this a good motivation to spread justice and peace. let me ask what Atheism teachs their followers about killing this evoluted animal, considering the Iraqi war as a case study, how did the Atheists show up their difference than the religious christians?!!!

[AHMAD_73]

That wasn't my point. I was just saying that if we took individuals as a reference, there are evil individuals in every race, religion or lack of. That is why I suggested to set individuals aside, and focus your interesting study on the behavior of nations. Like for example the difference between what the crusades have committed in Palestine, compared to what Saladin and his Muslim army did there later. Or the behavior of Muslims, when at their might and glory, towards the non-Muslims in Spain, compared to what the Japanese did, when at their turn of might and glory, to the Chinese people, or what the German did, when at their turn of might and glory, to Europe, or what the Europeans, when at their turn, did to the non-Christian natives in America, or what their grandsons are committing in recent history in Vietnam, Iraq or right now in Afghanistan.. or what the zionist Jews did and is still doing to the Palestinians, supported by the Christian west, backed up by falsified Jewish and Christian religion books.Those incidents reflect how religion text books, when falsified by man, can influence its followers and lead them to commit unspeakable atrocities, while in the case of authentic divine text books it commits its followers to spread peace and equality among all humans.

assalam-u alykom, brother

I definitely agree with you, comparisons based on the actions and reactions at the time of full glory and full control of the situations, will show up the real believes and the real teachings of the religion. And I feel we are in no need to say that Islam wins with the technical punch in both cases opining lands and re-gaining lands (crusade and Spain cases).

While, what I like to add is the comparisons at the opposite cases at the full falling down, the weakness and de-civilization, should be beneficent as well. Although The Muslim world is considered at such position these years , but still we did not reach that bad Europe reached during the relatively long black eras (3^rd – 15^th) century. On the other hand we have some good advantages, the others lost in their full power, like family integrity and society integrity. We don't have such scary numbers and rates of fatal diseases AIDS and CANCERS. We could be more happy and feel self contentment considering the Suicide rates.

when we sticked to Islam, it civilized us with the highest rates ever, facilitate and improved our lives, and showed our justice and mercy at times of full power. and even when we got away from many of it's teachings, it still protect and save us from being so bad.

[Padre5]

To broaden the discussion, I( believe that the Muslim position on Apostasy is wrong. Every human should be able to evaluate and reject the faith in which their parents raised them. One of the reasons I reject the idea that the Qur'an is the the word of God is because the treatment of Apostasy is inconsistent with the way man is made or "wired." If we are a creation of a "Loving God," our curiosity and the scepticism of people like me is perfectly normal. What justifies killing your children if they are like me? Take the time to watch this:

Edited by Padre5, 05 September 2012 - 09:49 PM.

[AHMAD_73]

@Padre, when i found your post i thought you will tell us your opinion about our replays to your first charge "Islam teachs terrorism", you didn't answer any of our queries how Atheism will spread peace, considering the USSR case? or how a devoted Atheist differs than a christian killers, Iraqi case? ....and .....and ....i wonder what could be the benifit of discussion if you don't care about what we say!!

while i've been chocked that you just changed the subject by another false charge!!!, should be opened in a new thread
i have slow connection right now that i can't see the video. while for now, no where in the Quran it tells to kill the apostate...

[dot]

To broaden the discussion,

You mean to escape the discussion?
Or perhaps you meant it to be a one man show! You can't do that in forums. You're the one who invited more members to join the "discussion"..

Besides, posting videos of apostates who were given a western hug, and lots of cash, to use them to attack Islam through the media, taking advantage of less Islamic-aware people like yourself, isn't exactly a nice way to make Muslim friends.

Now I don't have the enthusiasm to correct your info regarding apostasy in Islam, but if you look up my recent posts, I remember I've explained it clearly before. And no, Islam doesn't ask us to kill our children if they left Islam. You can probably find lunetics who did it, somewhere in this planet, specifically where Muslims are ignorat of their religion, and where local customs and traditions are wrongly mixed with Islamic teachings. Keep in mind that, Islam being the poor man's religion, because it originally ended slavery and freed the poor from the tyranny of the rich, and gave them equal rights as human beings, have many followers in many poor regions and under-developed countries, and being poor sometimes equals being less educated, less eager to learn and more eager to find food and life necessaries. It is in such parts of the world that you'll find the most ill-educated Muslims.

But in that same planet, you can also find people who invited others to share their own human flesh alive for dinner, randomly killed dozens of movie house goers, erased cities from the face of this planet, melted women and children's flesh and bones with white phosphorus sprayed over their skies while they were sleeping.. and guess what.. none of those were Muslims.
Nothing religious-related here or there. There are Lunatics everywhere. (how about that for a rhyme? lol)
Why try to stick that to the most peaceful religion.. or even to any genuine religion at all?

[Benedict]

[at]Padre5,

This YouTube video is by one of my personal favorites, P.Z. Meyers. It starts with the idea that the so-called BTK serial killer, who was (and probably still is!) the embodiment of evil, was also a "good Christian." The question he raises is whether Christianity can lead to real evil.
I believe it too often has! Good Christians, throughout history, have slaughtered each other because of religion, butchered "natives" because they wouldn't convert or because they wanted the land where they lived, and still stand silently as their leaders preach hatred for gays, and sometimes others they hate. They also try to pass laws, at least in America, to force the teaching of nonsense to children, and require prayer. To this I shout, keep the heck out of the classrooms of my grandchildren!
Most of you believe, as I do, that the treatment of the captive people in the so-called "occupied territories" by the israelis is evil, clearly prompted by religion.
Now, I give you all the task of citing the evil caused by Muslims, AND ask yourself how much Islam has CAUSED that evil. Please search your consciences, and try to be really honest!

I would like to just chime in a little. Just because a person professes a faith does not make them a good person. Nor does that make that faith a bad faith if that person does evil. One is given free will to make choises. Has there been nasty dirty stuff in Christian history yes. It is no different than the rest of human history. Christianity no more leads to evil than Islam, Judiasm, Atheism, or Paganism.

You seem to paint with a realy broad brush. IDK who is preaching hatred of gays. What I have been taught/preached to about is love the sinner hate the sin. As far as the nonsense as you call it.... it is no more nonsense then the evolution nonsens they teach now. Teach them side by side and let the kids decide for them self. JMO though.

On a side note I have enjoyed many of the post you have written. And now have the pleasure of interacting on a thread with you.

[Padre5]

".... answer me plz, where were the Islamic terrorism before Ben Laden? or let's say before israeli occupation to the Muslem land and the unlimited weastern support to it?!!!"

Ahmad, bin Laden and his followers are but the latest in a long line of devout Muslims who have preached hatred for non-Muslims. The most notable before him was the Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, who taught: "...Moslems have no alternative... to an armed holy war against profane governments. ...Holy war means the conquest of all non-Moslem territories. ...It will ...be the duty of every able-bodied adult male to volunteer for this war of conquest, the final aim of which is to put Koranic law in power from one end of the earth to the other...The leaders of the USSR and of England and the president of the United States are ...infidels.... ...Every part of the body of a non-Moslem individual is impure, even the hair on his head and his body hair, his nails, and all the secretions of his body. Any man or woman who denies the existence of God, or believes in His partners [the Christian Trinity], or else does not believe in His Prophet." (See http://howardbloom.net/islam.htm)
My point is that it is entirely his understanding of his religion that lead him to these outrageous and evil views. The views are, in fact, a product of Islam. Can you point to such evil in any person that are a product of LACK OF BELIEF in a deity? And I do not dispute that the same belief in Islam has produced much good. My point is that any religion, inde4ed ALL religions, have caused, or seem to cause, both good and evil. Maybe the thread on the Jinn is right, your God created both good and evil in the world!
Mohammed, is impure (in the same way as are excrement, urine, dog, and wine)[sic]."

[Padre5]

[at]Padre, when i found your post i thought you will tell us your opinion about our replays to your first charge "Islam teachs terrorism", you didn't answer any of our queries how Atheism will spread peace, considering the USSR case? or how a devoted Atheist differs than a christian killers, Iraqi case? ....and .....and ....i wonder what could be the benifit of discussion if you don't care about what we say!!

while i've been chocked that you just changed the subject by another false charge!!!, should be opened in a new thread
i have slow connection right now that i can't see the video. while for now, no where in the Quran it tells to kill the apostate...

First, let me correct one idea you seem to have. Atheism is NOT a religion or belief system that tries to do or "teach" anything. It is simply the absence of belief in any deity. Atheists can be very good or very evil, and everything in between. Individual atheists may try to "spread peace," but atheism doesn't DO anything. While I understand that Islam, like all religions, has influenced people to do things that are good, and because of which acts all Muslims can, and perhaps should be proud, I also believe that Muslims should acknowledge that people who have clearly been doing what they are sure is the direct will of Allah have committed very evil acts, and that, in addition there are customs and practices within Islam, or at least in Muslim countries and societies, that are not condemned strongly enough. Perhaps that is because you do not have a "high authority" like the Bishops of Christianity, or the head Rabbis of Judaism, but I am greatly bothered when the senior clerics of Islam seem to condone or even encourage evil acts.

Edited by Padre5, 23 September 2012 - 07:47 PM.

[Padre5]

To help us all keep perspective, we should all remember what the Nazis did during World War II:
And, of course, that history does help explain the reason that israel exists today. This relates to much of the evil that is going on in the middle east, too.

Edited by Padre5, 23 September 2012 - 09:39 PM.

[iRock]

To help us all keep perspective, we should all remember what the Nazis did during World War II:
And, of course, that history does help explain the reason that israel exists today. This relates to much of the evil that is going on in the middle east, too.

I wish the leaders of Iran at least can say like you .