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#21 Younes

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 03:32 PM

Thank you. What do Muslims think about the part in the Bible where it says nobody comes to the Father except through Jesus?

 

The most likeliest explanation is that Jesus, peace be upon him, never said such a thing and the Christians who forged the religion simply ascribed that saying to him. 



#22 sinceritta

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 04:40 PM

alikom salam sister :)

nobody can reject you sister! Islam is not ours! its god's only .  everybody is invited and welcomed to be a muslim

i
dont know how to guide you bcz Islam for me its not a manual book or
steps , its hapinnes and peace and to be pleasent with god and try as
much as you can to do good deeds and avoid bad things . this is how i
see Islam ( yes we have rules and rewards and punishments but our rules
in Islam is divized to 3 kinds , rules to woship god , rules to be a
better person and rules to be good for your society including ur family
friends neibhors country .... etc ) , for me its the reason why i never
will cheat on my husband and he newver will cheat on me , i never will
go outside my house half naked bcz everything expensif is covered ( look
at princesses they are not allowed to show alot of their bodies , look
at pearls , look at animals! they are covered by fur and you  never 
will find a hanging out ###### bcz god made thier intimate parts very
private , look at trhees they are covered with leaves once they lose
thier leaves they look ugly and sad , i can keep going and going but if
you can't see this by your heart you never will ! since you are a
christian i'm sure you have an image about how sant merry looks like ,
is she naked or fully covered ? exactly ! she was covered and she was
one of the strongest smartesst most pious woman in the world , for me
Islam made me a better daughter and made my mother worry -free about how
i would treat her when she is 90 yrs old , it makes  me never worry
about turning 18 yrs old! i dont need to worry if i get a job yet bcz my
father is willing to take my charge forever ( this is the Islamic
mentality )  ! and made me sure if my husband mistreated me then he will
be punished by god , bcz i'm a pricless as a muslim woman . i can't
tell you what to do or how to feel about Islam sister , i may confuse
you if i try to , so the best thing to do is to go to the closest sunni
mosque in your area and ask questions , if you aren't satisfied then go
to the second mosuqe and the 3rd untill you find satisfaction of what
you are looking for .



#23 sinceritta

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 04:54 PM

by the way i don't speak fluent english do pardon my mistakes , i just wanted to tell you i'm glad you are looking for the truth and you care enough about your spiritual life , this is a good thing bcz theses days nobody really care :( , but i dont think you you choosed the right reason ! bcz communities are basicly human beings and they can disapoint you no matter of what religion ! nobody is perfect and we shouldnt build our relation with god with how others treat us! you should look for the perefect religion not the perfect society , for me the perfect god is Allah bcz he has no father no son ! means he isnt like me or like anything else in the world , and he is fair enough to judge me for who i'm not if i'm one of his relatives , and he won't punish me for others ! he will punish me for my actions and my intentions . plz don't judge Islam by muslims , Islam is perfect but muslims aren't



#24 dot

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 05:57 PM

communities are basicly human beings and they can disapoint you no matter of what religion ! nobody is perfect and we shouldnt build our relation with god with how others treat us!

 

 
plz don't judge Islam by muslims , Islam is perfect but muslims aren't

 

That's right.



#25 Younes

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 08:52 PM

Yes, I am saying that Jesus, peace be upon him, did not say those things. The onus of proof is on you to prove that the Gospels were written by the disciples of Jesus, peace be upon him, or disciples of the disciples. Thus far I have not seen a single Christian be able to trace the Gospels back to Jesus, peace be upon him. Whom did the disciples teach? Whom did the disciples' disciples teach? Where is the unbroken chain of transmission from teacher to student lasting until the present day? Your former faith, Catholicism, at least tries to provide the idea of an Apostolic Succession. Can you demonstrate such a thing? 

 

What I am saying is that the disciples did not write the Gospels. It cannot be proved that they did. Rather the canonical Gospels are anonymous works - this is the stance of modern scholarship. 

 

What was the motive behind the people who invented the lies about Jesus, peace be upon him? The same as that of other innovators who invented new false religions. 



#26 Redeem

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 01:24 AM

“Moreover I cannot see why fasting is mandated. We should be able to do it as we feel led to. As far as visiting Mecca, that makes no sense to me and I would feel like I am making an idol out of a place and an object when God is already closer to me than my veins. So I don't qualify here either.

 

The distinction Islam has from other religions is that we don't work on our own schedule or whim when it comes to religion. We work on God's. This is why we have 5 obligatory daily prayers that are spread out throughout the day. So that we won't spend our day heedless of God except when it's convenient for us to remember him. They're like short appointments with him, to renew our faith and to cleanse our hearts.

 

Fasting is also one of these things that work on God's schedule. I could mention the reasons why fasting benefits the believer, but ultimately, "we should be able to do it as we feel" isn't a concept that works in Islam. We are the creation. God is the one who should be able to choose for us. Religion isn't about the convenience of the creation, but the will of the creator.

 

And as for Makkah, you say that going to a place to worship God is liking making an idol out of it. Do you consider going to church to be idol-worship? Because surely church has a significance for you as a Christian, even though God is already closer to you than your veins.

 

Salam.


Edited by Redeem, 05 July 2013 - 01:32 AM.


#27 Amna4

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 02:26 AM

Does anybody know what happened to sister Celeste?



#28 AbolqazAnuar

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 10:54 PM

To Gilito:

  1. Here are 10 answers for you:
  2.  
  3. Do you think it is fine to beat your wife, but wrong to eat pork sausages?

Islam teaches us to respect women. Women has a higher order compared to men. However those Muslims who actually beat their wives are well Muslims but not a very good Muslims. There are circumstances where he could place a physical reminder, but the definition is not the same. It has to be done with love not anger. It is nothing like That scene from Mr and Mrs Smith. Certainly not the same as 'Red Neck' so-called Christians in America. Never judge the religion by the doings of a few followers. You cannot eat pork even the bible says that.

  1. Do you think there is no error in the Quran, because the Quran says so?

The Quran has no error because, it really has no errors. Muslims knows it by heart from cover to cover, every Muslim reads it in the same language in the same way according to the same rule. The tajwid, the rule of reading the Quran would make it impossible for someone to change any single thing for 1,400 years it has been the same because EVERY GENERATION within the years could read it by heart. Can you know the bible by heart? In Hebrew, because know that the language of Jesus is Hebrew not english. We read the Quran in Arab the language of the Prophet and I am not even an arab.

  1. Is everything bad that ever happened to you someone else’s fault?

By that logic, why does Jesus AS have to die for your sins? It is your sins you die for it. There is nothing of this in Islam, everything good and bad has been determine by Allah SWT. We can only pray that He gives us more good than bad.

  1. Do you loudly demand respect from everybody, but respect nobody else?

Those of us who demands respect from everybody is not the same person who do not respect everybody else. You are thinking maybe about the Arabs (maybe) but the ones who demand respect is the Muslims living in the West. Anyways this question is very vague, it could mean any one of the 7 billion people on earth.

  1. When you see a Jew do you get angry?

Why are you not angry, don't you know that they killed Jesus AS? You embrace them as though they are your brothers but they made fools out of the Christians. If only you know then truth.

  1. Do you think homosexuals should be stoned to death but it is OK for old men to have sex with little girls?

In the Bible did God not do the same thing to the people of Sodom, who were filled with homosexuals? Are you not then going against the word of the Bible?

 

the accusation on Muhammad SAW is a big lie, she was not a child. She was already capable of birth. Besides it was ordained by Allah SWT that Aisyah RA should be Muhammad SAW 's wife. Why? because she is the keeper of hadith, the top four. If she was married to the Prophet 10 years later then she would not have any hadith to keep won't she? If you do not what hadith is, you do not know about Islam.

  1. Do you fly into a rage when you hear about a teddy bear called Mohammed, but blowing up tourists leaves you indifferent?

Of course we are at rage. We do not characterize the Prophet Muhammad SAW to see his face is a reward of the after-life. We do not do that to Jesus As either, it is you Christians and your Hollywood who does all this. LMFAO the shuffling Jesus, Masyaallah, why do you do that to Jesus. No Muslims would ever. Again blowing up part is different from the real Muslims just as your KKK is different from you Christians.

  1. Do you believe you are better than other people, and non-Muslims are like apes and pigs?

Wrong again my friend and I spit at the Muslim who thinks so. Muslims see non-believers as men, only they are just lost. Especially the Christians. If only you knew.

  1. Do you think refining heroin for a living is just fine, but have a moral objection to liquor?

He who have drug abuse problem is not following the teaching of Islam, how can he or she pray in such condition, Islam forbids it. Come down to Arabia to a Muslim country and see what Muslims are really like. Liquor is the root to evil, and just like the matter on pork, it if forbidden in the Bible. Look it up

  1. Do you like alternative medicine, particularlycamel urine?

No, the best medicine in Islam is to pray and ask that Allah SWT to heal us, while also applying actual medical treatment.

 

To Celeste:

 

I am sorry, but there is not a way for you to be Muslim but still believe that Jesus is the son of God. However let me point out to one logic, if the Christians claimed that Jesus AS is the son of God because he was born of no father, why then not believe in Adam AS who was born with a father or mother? Would that not make him a better God? It is because it was a misunderstanding that was caused by Constantine's Council of Nicaea. He did this to Jesus AS, but Jesus AS is still alive and he will come in the end of days to tell the Christians that they made a grave mistake. I hope very much that Allah SWT would give you His light for you are very close to finding it. Salam.



#29 hamza81

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 04:24 AM

Salam,

 

I don't know if I would be welcome. I am very serious about this. Nobody
has formally introduced me to the religion though. I was raised Christian and
have been a serious believer all of my life, up until two years ago I
have been questioning my faith, but have not completely let go or ruled
out that Christ was the son of God or miraculous. I have done some reading from Muslims on websites and I am already familiar with the culture. One of the main
reasons why I want to become Muslim is because I feel the
Christian community has failed me and I am drawn to how disciplined
Muslims are; I think I would feel safe and covered by Islam. I am afraid that if I don't become part of a community that takes their life serious I am literally going to die. Is my
reasoning for considering becoming Muslim acceptable? Would I be
unwelcomed for the concerns I mentioned, including the fact that I can't
go as far as denouncing Christ? If I would be welcome, then where
should I start?
     

Greetings sister Celeste. There is no doubt that Jesus (Peace be upon him) was one of the most special Messengers of Allah. Almighty Allah the exalted clearly refers to Jesus in the Qur'an as the "Messiah". The word Messiah in Hebrew is 'maw-shee-akh'. In Arabic it is "Maseeh". This basically means the "Annointed" and "Appointed". This refers to the fact that Jesus (Peace be upon him) came into this world out of his mother's womb, naturally and divinely anointed with oil and was divinely appointed by God as one of his greatest Prophets. If you believe in the words of Jesus (Pbuh) then you will believe in him as a great Prophet of God and NOT God because there is not one single statement in his words or that of the word of God that refers to him as God.

 

How can Jesus be GOD Almighty in the light of the following verses?

 

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Mark 12:29 Jesus said "Here, O Israel:  The Lord our God is one Lord."   The words "our God" indicate that Jesus had a higher God over him, a stronger God than him.  Jesus didn't say "Your God".  He said "our God" which includes Jesus as the creation of GOD.

 

If Jesus was GOD, then why did he ask for GOD's Forgiveness in Luke 23:34?  Please visit How can Jesus be GOD Almighty when he asked for GOD's Forgiveness?

 

If Jesus was GOD, then why Mark 15:34 says "And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

 

If Jesus was GOD, then did Paul say in 1 Corinthians 8:6 "yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live."

 

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 20:17 Jesus said "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "

 

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 8:28 Jesus said "I do nothing of myself"?  Can't GOD do anything he wills? 

 

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 14:28 Jesus said "My Father (GOD) is greater than I"?

 

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Luke 23:46 Jesus said "Father (GOD), into thy hands I commend my spirit"?

 

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Mark 10:18 Jesus said “And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”?

 

Also in Luke 18:19 Jesus said only GOD Almighty is Good: ""Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone."

 

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 26:39 Jesus begged his GOD to have mercy on him and to pass the cup to death (kill Jesus in another words) before Jesus goes through the pain of crucifixion?  Also see: Jesus' crucifixion in Islam

 

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 18:38 he didn't reply when he was asked about the truth?

 

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 24:36 Jesus said "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."  Jesus told his followers that no one (including Jesus) knows when the judgment day will come, only GOD knows?

 

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Isaiah 11:2-3 GOD had put the spirit of fearing GOD in Jesus?  Also see GOD's Spirit in the many others beside Jesus.

 

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:31 Jesus told his followers that if he (Jesus) bears witness of himself, then his record is not true?

 

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:30 Jesus told his followers that he can't do a single thing of his own initiative?

 

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:36-38 Jesus said that GOD had assigned him (Jesus) work and GOD is a witness on Jesus?

 

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:32 Jesus told his followers that they have never seen GOD at anytime nor ever heard his voice?

 

If Jesus was GOD, then why did he pray to his GOD in Luke 5:16?

 

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 26:39 Jesus fell on his face and prayed to his GOD?

 

If Jesus was GOD, then how come in Hebrew 5:7 he prayed and cried for GOD to hear him and give him mercy by saving him from death?

 

If Jesus was GOD, then how come in John 1:18 he said "No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the FATHER'S side, has made HIM known."  Where do you see Trinity in this Verse?

 

If Jesus was GOD, then how come in John 5:37 he said "And the FATHER who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard HIS voice nor seen HIS form,"  Jesus and the GOD are different.  People heard Jesus, but never heard GOD.

 

Also The "Son" title also given to others beside Jesus:

 

How come Christians take the "God's Son" title literally with Jesus and they don't take it literally for the rest of the prophets and people who were called the Sons of God?

 

In John 3:16 Jesus was called God's only Begotten Son.

 

In Exodus 4:22 "Thus saith Jehovah, Israel is my son, even my firstborn."  Israel was called God's First Son.

 

In Jeremiah 31:9 "I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn."  Ephraim is God's First Son and First Born.

 

In Psalm 2:7 "....Jehovah had said onto me (David), thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."  David was called God's Begotten Son.

 

Also Jesus' Miracles were not unique in the Bible:

 

If Jesus is believed to be GOD because he could do miracles, he could heal leprosy, he could cause blind men to see, or raise the dead, then what about the others who performed the same miracles?

 

Elisha and Elijah fed a hundred people with twenty barley loaves and a few ears of corn (2 Kings 4:44).  Elisha told Naaman, who was a leper, to wash in the river Jordan (2 Kings 5:14) and he was healed.  Elisha caused a blind man to see in (2 Kings 6:17,20).  Elijah and Elisha raised the dead in (1 Kings 17:22, and 2 Kings 4:34).  Even Elisha's dead bones restored a dead body in (2 Kings 13:21).  Indeed Jesus had prophesied that people will worship him uselessly and will believe in doctrines not made by GOD but by men "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (Matthew 15:9)"

 

In Matthew 15:9 above, we see Jesus warning that Trinity (the bogus lie) will dominate, and people will take Jesus as GOD and worship him, which is a total sin according to what Jesus said !!.

 

Allah Almighty (GOD) in the Noble Quran (The Muslims' Holy Scripture) states in Verse 5:72 "They do blaspheme who say: 'God is Christ the son of Mary.' But said Christ: 'O Children of Israel ! worship God, my Lord and your Lord.' "

 

Also in Noble Verse 5:73 "They do blaspheme who say God is one of three in a Trinity:  for there is no god except One God.  If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them."

 

And also in Noble Verse 4:171 "O People of the Book!  Commit no excesses in your religion:  Nor say of God aught but the truth.  Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of God, ..."


Also let us talk about the trinity. Where, specifically, in the Gospel does Jesus (PBUH!) mention the Trinity?

 

(If you find no such reference from his lips to a god residing in three persons -- and you will not -- then perhaps you will be moved to consider the following questions:)

 

2-  How could Jesus (PBUH!) possibly have omitted to mention something of such extraordinary importance?

 

* How could the authors of the four Gospels have made the same extraordinary omission?

 

(For no direct reference to the Trinity appears in any chapter or verse of any of the four Gospels. It is a patching-on from a later era.)

 

3-  Why does Jesus (PBUH!) in the Lord's prayer address the Lord as "Father" and then refer to the Father's children throughout as "Us" and "We," instead of separating himself from the rest of the children of God, as the Trinity would seem to demand?

 

4-  And the big question: If redemption through the blood of Christ, that one member of the Trinity, is all that is necessary for salvation, how are we to explain the many, many occasions in the Gospel that Jesus (PBUH!) details the necessity of submitting directly to the One God -- without ever mentioning the role of his (Jesus', PBUH!) redeeming blood?

 

So let me ask you sister Celeste: Are these not extraordinary teachings? Are they not central to the ministry of Jesus (PBUH!)? And must we not confront dozens of them in order to defend the Trinity and the notion of the sacrificial Christ?

 

So if you truly believe in Jesus in accordance with what he has referred himself as and that which God has referred to him as then this is the same as how he has been referred to in the Qur'an.



#30 Gods Servant

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 08:14 AM

Allah knows best.

Edited by Gods Servant, 09 August 2013 - 08:38 AM.


#31 Nayef Othman

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 11:42 AM

Many Muslims tell me that God has sons by the tons; so, why do you say Jesus is not the son of God especially since he was born of a virgin? If you mean God didn't sear Jesus I agree, but if you mean Jesus is not a word from God or the word of God I disagree. 

you are saying that many Muslims telling you that God (Allah ) has sons by the tons ???!!! and then you are saying that Jesus should be son of God because he's virgin " I think you mean he has no father " ,this is what I understood from your question"why do you say Jesus is not the son of God especially since he was born of a virgin?",so please correct me if I'm wrong....OK...let's study the hypothesis that you are saying....if Jesus is son of God because he has no father then what about Adam ,Adam has no father nor mother ,do Christians or any other believer believe that Adam is a God and should be worshiped  ?? or even that Adam is a son of God ??....and if yes..doesn't this actually mean that all humanity are sons and grand sons of God...come on, be serious, no one believe this,also if Adam has no father nor mother , Eva has no mother "this is if we accepted that Adam is her father"..according to what are you saying what prevents that Eva is a daughter of God ??...after these questions I have to correct your information ....no Muslim that admit to be Muslim and say that God has sons nor daughters , actually any Muslim say such like this thing isn't Muslim at all..... please read more about Islam   



#32 Nayef Othman

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 07:24 PM

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

Dear Celeste,

 

first of all, you are so welcomed to become a Muslim from Allah (our God) before Muslims themselves , you asked from where to start and you have some concerns about denouncing Jesus peace of Allah be upon him......first, Islam doesn't denounce any prophet because they are all servants and messengers of Allah .....prophets in Islam are human beings , they eat like we eat , they sleep like we sleep , they marry like we marry , but Allah chose them for us to lead us to the right way , Muslims believe that prophets don't fall in sins like others because they are fortified  against this thing, Qur'an in many cases directed us to believe and respect them ,I mention for example :

 


 

1.Say, [O believers], "We have believed in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what has been revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants and what was given to Moses and Jesus and what was given to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him [Allah]." [Al-Baqarah :136].

 


2.The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination." [Al-Baqarah:285].

 

In Islam there are special prophets and I mean they have special status for Muslims and one of them is Jesus peace of Allah be upon him , no matter what all Muslims said to prove that they respect Jesus , we still can't give him his right like Qur'an did , so let me read the following :

 

note : this is from the English translation of Qur'an. 


And mention, [O Muhammad], in the Book [the story of] Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place toward the east.(16)And she took, in seclusion from them, a screen. Then We sent to her Our Angel, and he represented himself to her as a well-proportioned man.(17)She said, "Indeed, I seek refuge in the Most Merciful from you, [so leave me], if you should be fearing of Allah ."(18)He said, "I am only the messenger of your Lord to give you [news of] a pure boy."(19)She said, "How can I have a boy while no man has touched me and I have not been unchaste?"(20)He said, "Thus [it will be]; your Lord says, 'It is easy for Me, and We will make him a sign to the people and a mercy from Us. And it is a matter [already] decreed.' "(21)So she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a remote place.(22)And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm tree. She said, "Oh, I wish I had died before this and was in oblivion, forgotten."(23)But he called her from below her, "Do not grieve; your Lord has provided beneath you a stream.(24)And shake toward you the trunk of the palm tree; it will drop upon you ripe, fresh dates.(25)So eat and drink and be contented. And if you see from among humanity anyone, say, 'Indeed, I have vowed to the Most Merciful abstention, so I will not speak today to [any] man.' "(26)Then she brought him to her people, carrying him. They said, "O Mary, you have certainly done a thing unprecedented.(27)O sister of Aaron, your father was not a man of evil, nor was your mother unchaste."(28)So she pointed to him. They said, "How can we speak to one who is in the cradle a child?"(29)[Jesus] said, "Indeed, I am the servant of Allah . He has given me the Scripture and made me a prophet.(30)And He has made me blessed wherever I am and has enjoined upon me prayer and zakah as long as I remain alive(31)And [made me] dutiful to my mother, and He has not made me a wretched tyrant.(32)And peace is on me the day I was born and the day I will die and the day I am raised alive."(33)That is Jesus, the son of Mary - the word of truth about which they are in dispute.(34)It is not [befitting] for Allah to take a son; exalted is He! When He decrees an affair, He only says to it, "Be," and it is.(35)[Jesus said], "And indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path."(36)


 


 

this surely summarize what Muslims believe about Jesus ,and how much they respect him and his mother Mary -may peace of Allah be upon them both - I don't have much to talk after this except asking you some questions :

 

1. do you respect and believe in all prophets of God? if yes ,you should known that Muslims do.

2. do you believe that prophets of God are humans who are fortified against falling in sins? if yes ,you should know that Muslims do.  

3. do you consider your believe is not complete unless you believed in Jesus ? if yes, you should know that Muslims do.

4. did you questioned your believe , and reached at certain instant that the Ultimate God  is One,and who is the Eternal Refuge. He neither begets nor is born,Nor is there to Him any equivalent." ? if yes ,please visit and read this : http://quran.com/112

 

if you answered all previous questions by "Yes", then let me say that Muslims and you have a lot  in common, and you believe in core of what Muslims believe in, so let me have the great honor to invite you to Islam and to be one of our community .

 

may Allah bless you and guide you to the right way. 



#33 Gods Servant

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 01:47 AM

By the way, evidence in regards to the Bible's corruption has been posted. However, it has been ignored by you and other Christians. You ignored the information of the tikkun soferim and the problems regarding the Masoretic vs. Septuagint. Upon request, I can post the same information in this thread.


That’s an interesting thread regarding the Septuagint and Masoretic texts. I think two important points need to be put forward. The Septuagint does not have any vowels. It’s very easy to interpret a word into five different words since there are no vowels. The reader had to pronounce the words according to the context of each passage. In addition to this a translator of any text not only translates in accordance with his linguistic skills but also in accordance with his religious beliefs. The translation of the Quran is no different. There are Arabic phrases and idioms that do not make sense in English but have to be interpreted into English in a way that makes sense without frustrating Islamic doctrines.

Bearing this in mind it comes as no surprise that we see discrepancies in passages such as Isaiah 7:14, Psalm 40:6 etc. It’s very easy to add in vowels to direct the meaning of a passage to Christian or Jewish doctrines. This does not mean it’s a fabrication. It simply means the translators translated the texts to the best of their ability while remaining to true to their religion. Having a look at the link you posted below shows perfectly well if you click to any chapter of any book the passages are essentially the same.

http://ecmarsh.com/lxx-kjv/genesis/gen_001.htm

#34 Younes

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 04:30 PM

The Septuagint does not have any vowels. It’s very easy to interpret a word into five different words since there are no vowels. 

Bearing this in mind it comes as no surprise that we see discrepancies in passages such as Isaiah 7:14, Psalm 40:6 etc.

 

Firstly, the Septuagint is written in Greek. Greek is written with vowels. It is Hebrew that is written without vowels. However, to be precise, the Masoretic text has vowels. That's what the Masoretes did - they added vowels to the consonantal text.

 

 

 

Finally, the lack of vowels does not explain discrepancies such as Isaiah 7:14. The two Hebrew words which are disputed in Isaiah 7:14 are "almah" and "betulah". It's quite clear to even a person who does not know Hebrew that the two words aren't different due to different vowelization. If you don't believe me, you can compare the actual two Hebrew words:  עלמה   vs.    בְּתוּלָה  .

 

The first word starts with the following letter: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayin

 

and the second with the following letter: http://en.wikipedia....ki/Bet_(letter)

 

Those two are consonants. 

 

Remember that Hebrew is read from right to left. It's quite clear that different consonants are being used. Thus, your explanation is completely wrong. Furthermore, I will have to say that it is too general. You can't fall back on such a generic argument and use it to explain away all the discrepancies. What you would have to do is to show case by case that all of the discrepancies come down to vowelization. 

 

Yes, the Septuagint and the Masoretic are "essentially" the same. However, let's keep in mind that there around 6000 differences between the Masoretic Torah and the Septuagint. Out of these 6000 differences, the Septuagint agrees in 2000 instances with the Samaritan Torah against the Masoretic text. In spite of that, the Samaritan Torah is "essentially" the same as the Masoretic one.

 

What I have problem with is passages that affect creed. Go to Deut 32:43 : http://ecmarsh.com/l...omy/deu_032.htm The Septuagint verse is used in the book of Hebrews to portray the deity of Jesus. I would say that this discrepancy is substantial. The question is, who changed the verse? The Jews or the Christians? 



#35 Gods Servant

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 12:16 AM

Sorry that was a typo I was meant to say the ancient Hebrew texts did not have vowels which you obviously already knew.

I didn’t say the vowels were the only factor explaining the discrepancies between the two texts. I also said they translated according to their religious belief. It’s painfully obvious in the example you gave in Isaiah 7:14. The Hebrew word has multiple meanings and could mean either virgin, young girl or handmaiden. We do not expect the Masoretes to use Virgin because that is a proof text used by Christians, so again it’s obvious the religious dispositions of the translator influences his translation of the text. In addition to the thousands of discrepancies between the two texts are also due to misspellings, missing articles and words etc. These are scribal errors not deliberate fabrications.

There are many proof texts that both the Septuagint and Masoretic text agree on that prove doctrines.

#36 Younes

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 04:28 PM

Sorry that was a typo I was meant to say the ancient Hebrew texts did not have vowels which you obviously already knew.

I didn’t say the vowels were the only factor explaining the discrepancies between the two texts. I also said they translated according to their religious belief. It’s painfully obvious in the example you gave in Isaiah 7:14. The Hebrew word has multiple meanings and could mean either virgin, young girl or handmaiden. We do not expect the Masoretes to use Virgin because that is a proof text used by Christians, so again it’s obvious the religious dispositions of the translator influences his translation of the text. In addition to the thousands of discrepancies between the two texts are also due to misspellings, missing articles and words etc. These are scribal errors not deliberate fabrications.

There are many proof texts that both the Septuagint and Masoretic text agree on that prove doctrines.

 

From a non-Jewish, non-Christian perspective, it seems that the language is not that poignant if the Hebrew word can have multiple meanings. Why not simply use the most poignant word "betulah" in the verse? Why not use a word whose translation won't be dependent the religious disposition of the translator, i.e. "betulah"? It's not like the word is not used in Isaiah.  

 

However, let me point out that Jews will disagree that the word can be translated in multiple ways: http://www.outreachj...lma-virgin.html

 

It appears that the Greek word does not mean a virgin exclusively either:  http://www.outreachj...septuagint.html

 

Jesus, peace be upon him, is quoted in the NT saying that not a single letter will disappear from the Torah. Did he mean the Hebrew text or a translation? If the book of Hebrews (and the Septuagint of the Christians) is to be believed, then letters indeed have disappeared from the Torah based on the discrepancy between the Masoretic text and the Septuagint in regards to Deut 32:43, the Christian Septuagint version being a proof-text for Christians. It's a lose-lose situation for Christians. If no letter has disappeared from the Torah, then this automatically means that verse 32:43 in the Christian Septuagint/book of Hebrews is false. If the Septuagint supposedly is the correct version, then the prophecy ascribed to Jesus, peace be upon him, is moot.



#37 Gods Servant

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 08:14 PM

Read the context of Matthew 5:18-19 is Jesus talking about scholarship or the standard of the law to be observed?

Edited by Gods Servant, 13 August 2013 - 08:15 PM.


#38 Gods Servant

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 08:51 PM

You admitted previously the Septuagint and Masoretic text are essentially the same and that's exactly what I wanted to get from you, I don't care to wrangle with you about cherry picked verses so I'm done here. Thanks for the discussion, I admire your knowledge in this field, God bless you.





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