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Ignatius

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About Ignatius

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  1. The Falsehood Of Pluralism

    Grace and Peace, In Catholicism, we call this 'relativism': A theory, especially in ethics or aesthetics, that conceptions of truth and moral values are not absolute but are relative to the persons or groups holding them. Although I can appreciate your point-of-view and the view of the author, relativism is not a product of 'the West' but 'the East' and incorparated into much of Classic Islamic thought through Sufism. In fact, it is held by many scholars that Islamic Sufism brought 'relativism' to the West and that within Islam there exists a certain amount of 'relativism' inherent in it's view of One God yet many Prophets (or messengers). Peace 4 Real
  2. Quran Refutes Itself!

    Grace and Peace Luqman Ibn Mushahir, I do believe that the creator of this thread has been 'removed' are you mistaking the originator of this thread for me? Not sure... Peace.
  3. Quran Refutes Itself!

    Grace and Peace Mehmood, Truly as Christianity spread it also diversified. As I don’t know which ‘denominational’ school you attend I can’t comment much. Do you mind sharing? Actually here was my original post this this topic... I saw this thread and I was disappointed in the misunderstandings of both sides of this argument. Truly it does appear that the Quran asserts that 'some' Christians worship The Father, The Son and Mary with no mention of the Holy Spirit as the third 'person' of the Holy Trinity. Truly this could have come form several observations from the practices and traditions of the Christian Sect active in and around the Middle-East at the time of Muhammad ibn Abdullah. Scholars Bruce McDowell and Anees Zaka have suggested there may be several possible historical sources for the God-Jesus-Mary concept of the Trinity. They note that since the Syriac word for "spirit" is feminine, some Syriac Christians may have concluded that the Holy Spirit is a "she". There is also an apocryphal gospel The Gospel According to the Hebrews that makes reference to "my mother, the Holy Spirit". We also know that the Abyssinian Christians highly venerated the Virgin Mary to a degree which might give the appearance of reverence to a creature of God which should be reserved for God alone. Still further, there was a Christian sect called the Choloridians which held a view similar to that described in the Quran. Since all of these had proximity to Muhammad ibn Abdullah, any or all of these factors may have played a role in Muhammad's inclusion of Surah 5:116 in the Quran, and the subsequent view that the Trinity of 'all' Christians is composed of God, Jesus, and Mary. Ultimately Muslims will never admit to this and will continue to argue their interpretation of this passage but I personally would agree that one or all of these Sects played a role in forming this opinion in the mind of Muhammad ibn Abdullah. Christians who seek to illuminate 'error' in the Quran should strive to perfect their own knowledge on the matter instead of using such bravado. With regards to early Christians venerating the Holy Mother as Theotokos (i.e. Mother of God) we need look no further than the earliest understandings of Jesus' divinity. The term Theotokos speaks 'more' concerning the nature of Jesus than it speaks concerning the nature of the Virgin Mary but one need look no further than the Davidic Kingdom and the Queen Mother to gather rationale for early Christian understanding of Mary as the Queen Mother of Heaven sitting next to her Son who reigns in the Heavenly Jerusalem as David reigned in the earthly Jerusalem both with their Queen Mothers at their side. Now I am not here to stir up a debate but merely to offer rationale for this understanding. I hope that I have served in some capasity to allay these misunderstandings between my separated Brethren in Christ and my Friends in Islam. Actually I was under the impression that Islam taught a kind of ‘foretaste’ eschatology. What happens at the time of death as you understand it? And to you as well. Peace and God Bless.
  4. Quran Refutes Itself!

    Grace and Peace Mehmood, As a Christian I can appreciate this sentiment but we recognize the Kingdom of Heaven and thus the 'communion of saints' in a unique way which embraces the special union it's members share with the Godhead. This expression 'communion of saints' indicates first of all the common sharing of all the members of the Church in holy things (sancta): the faith, the sacraments, especially the Eucharist, the charisms, and the other spiritual gifts. At the root of this communion is love which "does not seek its own interests" (1 Corinthians 13:5) but leads the faithful to "hold everything in common" (Acts 4:32), even to put one's own material goods at the service of the most poor. This expression also refers to the communion between holy persons (sancti); that is, between those who by grace are united to the dead and risen Christ. Some are pilgrims on the earth; others, having passed from this life, are undergoing purification and are helped also by our prayers. Others already enjoy the glory of God and intercede for us. All of these together from in Christ one family, the Church, to the praise and glory of the Godhead. Truly we do not ask forgiveness from anyone other than God but we do recognize the unique role God has given His Saints to participate in His Providence for all mankind. It's through this participation that we recognize it's legitimacy in manifesting and administering God's Graces through intercessory prayer. We do not pray that 'they' forgive our sins but that they might join us in prayer to our most Holy Creator to exercise His Mercy on us. Again this is part of our understanding of the nature of the 'communion of saints' and their participation in the Godhead. I hope this is helpful. My guess is that this was mistakenly targeted toward me. My guess is that this comment was meant for (The Truth). With that assumption I will leave it for others who are more argumentative to take to task unless you desire my thoughts on the subject. Peace and God Bless.
  5. Quran Refutes Itself!

    Grace and Peace Mehmood, Oh truly we believe. Let me explain... Part of our Catholic Confession of Faith, i.e. our 'Credo' is "I Believe in Life Everlasting". Life Everlasting speaks of the Eternal life which begins immediately after our 'earthly' death. It will have no end. It will be preceded for each person by a 'particular' judgement at the hands of Christ who is the Judge of the living and dead. This particular judgement will be confirmed in the 'final' judgment. It is our teaching that 'particular' judgement is the judgment of immediate retribution which each one after death will receive from God in his immortal soul in accord with his faith and his works. This retribution consists in entrance into the happiness of heaven, immediately or after an appropriate purification, or entry into the eternal damnation of hell. We often speak of this as 'a foretaste' of 'final' judgement which is reserved for the end of time. The final or universal judgment consists in a sentence of happiness or eternal condemnation, which the Lord Jesus will issue in regard to the "just and the unjust" (Acts 24:15) when he returns as the Judge of the living and the dead. After the last judgment, the resurrected body will share in the retribution which the soul received at the 'particular' judgment as it's own personal 'foretaste'. Truly some Theologians posit that outside of creation their exists no time at all and particular and final judgment is experienced as one encounter with infinity as we cross over into the heavenly realms. I guess we will ultimately have to wait and see. :D Understanding now our doctrine of 'particular' and 'final' judgment it is my hope that you grasp our rationale for recognizing Saints as 'those who enjoy the foretaste of heaven' in spiritual union if not in the physical body resurrected. Peace and God Bless.
  6. Quran Refutes Itself!

    Grace and Peace Mehmood, Oh you are too kind. Thank you so much for the apology. Truly I took no offense but your kindness is much appreciated. Actually I haven't seen [The Truth] up here for some time. I was pulled into the discussion after some ill attempts by him to offer criticism concerning Islam but never-the-less was forced to explain Catholic and Orthodox Christian Tradition and Practices concerning our Holy Mother. No harm, No foul. :D Peace and God Bless.
  7. Quran Refutes Itself!

    Grace and Peace Mehmood, As a Christian I agree that 'everyone is accountable for their own action' but, and in these dialogues there is always a 'but' isn't there... :D As I was saying, as a Christian I agree with you but through the expression of love, mercy and compassion God is manifest through and in His Creation for these are traits not found in creation except when God is truly 'among us'. When the Will of God is our will we share in His divinity and taste union with God which is our shared destiny as creatures endowed with an 'immortal soul'. B) It is the Islamic insistence of an eternal dualism throughout all eternity that creates our differences here. As a Christian, we are taught that we will ultimately share in unity the divine nature of our Creator and not merely continue in an existence as a 'creature' even if that creature exists in a heavenly paradise established by the satisfying of our worldly senses through indulgences. With regard to the Holy Mother Mary, she ever stands within our tradition as the 'grace-filled' servant of the 'Will of God' as a willing participate in His Providence of His Creation. She is our creaturely example of a life lived in faith fulfilling God's Plan not only for herself but for all who have been graced by God's Providence. Truly it is our tradition to acknowledge her as Sanctified in heaven with our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ but honestly such is our 'belief' and our 'tradition' and it is not shared with everyone who claims Christ as their Lord. This touches on a very 'real' difference that we have, at the very least, between your view of Islamic teaching and my own Christian view of Divine Justice and Mercy. In a real sense, I don't see our punishment for our actions as a dependent act of wrath by God but as an inherent outcome of a life in sin within a creation which is not only a backdrop to His Providence but also a participate. This appears to be a real departure between you and I and our views of creation and of our views of God. Thus in my view, wrath or the punishment of sin is not an arbitrary Act of Will by God but an inherent outcome of a life lived without Him. So to is the damnation of Hell. God ultimately does not condemn us to Hell as much as we condemn ourselves. As creatures endowed with 'free-will' we exercise 'free-choice' to do what is right or what is wrong and reap the benefits or burdens through our application of Divine Wisdom or lack there of. Again this is our ability to 'share' in the divine nature thus bridging the dualism between creature and creator and thus participating in the divine nature (the only eternal nature and the only means to true salvation). This is a lot to discuss so I will cut my dialogue short so as to give you time for reflection without overwhelming our discussion with too many topics. Peace and God Bless.
  8. Quran Refutes Itself!

    Grace and Peace Mehmood, Uh sorry I don't get up here everyday and lately I've been busy on a project at work. I will reflect on your posts and give you a thoughtful reply soon, God Willing. Thank you for your thoughts. Peace 4 Real!
  9. Quran Refutes Itself!

    Grace and Peace Mehmood, Well I am glad to see your willingness to help me out here but it appears that a great many assumptions are at play in your conclusion that Christians, particularly Catholic and Orthodox Christians 'worship' the Holy Mother and think of her as a 'superior being'. Nothing could be further from the truth. In Christianity we exercise a great deal of 'humility' in recognizing our weaknesses to please God and thus merit His favor but wee know through our scriptures that God answers the contrite of heart. Recognizing our own weaknesses we ask others who may be more contrite of heart than we to pray for us or for our cause. Our tradition teaches us that any prayer from a contrite heart will be answered by God even if it is for one who is not pleasing to Him. This is the power of His mercy shown through those who work His Will in the world. In our tradition we see the 'whole' of the Kingdom of Heaven as 'one' body 'undivided' but space and time, life or death. Those of us who have past on continued to live in spiritual union with us and God. This is why we can and do use prayer as a means of communication with those members who are no longer among us here in the mundane realm but continue to exist in the heavenly realm with God. In our tradition we exercise discernment to determine those who have lived lives we believe have been pleasing to God and we hold in faith that they are with Him now sharing in heavenly communion with our Creator. In this they are in the most favorable position to make petition for those of us who fail to please God in our weaknesses yet desire help in our infirmities from those who have God's Favor. The one who we believe is most assured to have God's Favor is the Mother of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Of all who are creatures of the Almighty she is the most obedient and most contrite of heart. So we ask for her prayers and guidance on the journey to union with Him whom is already in Union with Her. This is exactly what we mean when we look for guidance and help through God's many agents and messengers. God has a long history of using intermediaries and in Christianity that is recognized and expected. Peace and God Bless.
  10. Quran Refutes Itself!

    Grace and Peace abukhaleel, Please help me understand what you are saying here... Are you saying that if a little old lady 'asks' a gentleman to help her carry a package to her car or house that in Islam this little old lady is 'worshipping' the gentleman? Am I also to understand that students asking for guidance from their teacher is 'worshipping' their teacher? I have not heard this before and I find it odd. Could you or one of your Muslim Brothers or Sisters help me understand what you are saying here? Thank you. Peace.
  11. Was Jesus Really God?

    Grace and Peace Nooni, Actually this is 'not' the concept of the Trinity this is a limited grasp of the Doctrine of the Trinity expressed through an analogy which fails to express it in terms which recognizes it's true objective... please read post #68. Because God Almighty is beyond finite concepts... all logic and reason do is handle finite concepts which only point to the infinite of God Almighty. No but nor is God Almighty found within limited systems of reasoning. What I would do is 'invite' you to come and encounter the divine yourself through deep prayer and reflection and convict you with your own experiences and not with logic or reason. Our relationship... our encounter ultimately must be established through first-person means and not through second-person reasoning. That is not an encounter with God but merely an encounter with rational concepts and although they can be helpful they are ultimately a cage that can serve to keep us separate from a real spiritual life in the Spirit of God and bound to a life of pseudo-spiritual life of second-hand argumentation and tradition. Such was the life of the Pharisees, a life of appearances with no depth and thus no life. God has invited us to encounter and participate in the divine life of the Spiritual man, one in union with the divine. In that union... in that encounter we find the Interior Master whom reigns over our hearts and brings peace not through an external law but one superior to external law... the direct reign over the very source of error and sin... the human heart void of the divine Spirit. When we have the Interior Master reigning in our hearts we cease to need external means of establishing our faith for others as our example speaks for us and establishes our legitimacy. Only then will the willing seek us out for instruction and guidance. Only then is the truth on our lips and in our lives. Until then we exercise only a shadow of the truth hidden in lies and tyranny such is never the truth. Peace and God Bless.
  12. Quran Refutes Itself!

    Grace and Peace Khamosh, Those statistics do not demostrate an All-Just, All-Wise and All-Merciful God and so I believe them to be in error which has been the point of my criticism. I am sorry if I wasn't more clear. Yes I understand that Islam makes a distinction between Satan and the other Angels and asserts that Angels have no freewill. Christianity teaches that Satan was one of God's greatest Angels and that he led the Angelic Rebellion before the fall of man in the Garden. We have no distinction between Angels, fallen or otherwise, and Jinn. Peace.
  13. Quran Refutes Itself!

    Grace and Peace hajimood, I sense a polite tone in your writing... You appear to wear peace about you as a crown. This is a sign of favor and if it is truly genuine then I am enriched to encounter you in this dialogue but rest assued I know of the passages in which you speak and of course they are sobering but they speak not of 'numbers' yet present a sobering warning to Christ's Apostles. Men of Peace... Men of God speak in praise and in warnings but never in statistics and that is my point of criticism. I do not stand in judgement of anyone as truly God in the final Judge only before Him will we know the true measure of His mercy and I wait for Him and Him alone to give sentence. I recommend that other do the same and cease with the conjecture given in this thread. Honestly I find it offensive to suggest that out of 1000 only one does God grace with Him mercy. Truly who among us might state as righteous before Him if His grace was not upon us? Truly I say none. Peace and God Bless.
  14. Quran Refutes Itself!

    Grace and Peace Khamosh, Of course I would. It would appear that you believe we make choices in a vacuum without coercion of environmental factors or personal ills. If such was the case I assert that all factors being equal complete freedom of choice would yield far great odds of success than 1 out of every 1000 people created by an All-Just, All-Wise and All-Merciful God. If such is not the case then we’d have to seriously ask ourselves are we ‘truly’ free to make the choices we want to make… 1 out of a 1000 are terrible odds. Something is wrong if such ‘is’ the case and ultimately one could argue that such odds can’t be ‘our’ fault because we didn’t setup the scenario… God did and He did it knowing ahead of time such rates of failure would happen. With 999 people damned to an eternity of pain and suffering out of 1000 knowingly you have to admit that does appear to be a scenario that would be created by an All-Just, All-Wise and All-Merciful Creator. I could agree if Environmental and Physical factors didn’t appear to create a scenario that yields the eternal damnation of 999 out of 1000. Such odds don’t appear to illustrate a scenario in which Freedom of Choice is maintained. I believe God created Adam and Eve Perfect and Holy but just like the Angels they have Freedom of Choice to exercise either good or bad. In choosing to do evil the perfection of His Creation has been marred and allowed to distort into all manner of evil and imperfection. This is why the Incarnation was so necessary for creation. The inheriting of humanity by the Divinity allowed perfection to reenter creation and thus create a new opportunity to encounter perfection in the fallen creation. This was the reason for Christ’s life, death and resurrection to undo the stain of sin which reigned over fallen creation. I don’t believe that I am perfect but I am at work to attain perfection. There is a big difference. Ultimately Limbo is not a ‘place’ where people go who aren’t Baptized. Limbo is simply a theological term used as a catchall for situations in which revelation is unclear as to the actual outcome. It’s a fancy way of saying ‘We don’t know what God will do with these individuals as they don’t appear to merit Heaven through Grace nor the punishment of Hell through sin’. I must be clear with you though that the teaching of Limbo is not dogmatic nor even doctrinal in Catholicism or Orthodoxy and it is slowly going out of favor as an option for theological indecisions. Peace
  15. Quran Refutes Itself!

    Grace and Peace Khamosh, You appear to be assuming 'complete' freedom of choice here such as a 50-50 proposition. Do you agree that all things being equal free choice should yeild a 50-50 split? Such fairness might be assumed by one attributed as All-Just, All-Wise and All-Merciful. Wouldn't you agree? I have not suggested that it's the environment's 'fault' or our weakness but they surely play a role as factors in our decision making abilities. Would you agree? Our will is a product of our state of being. Errode that state of being and we become more pliable. Would you agree? Suggesting that true freedom of choice would yield greater than 1 out of 1000 odds isn't suggesting that God should have created us perfect but are you suggesting that a prefect God created imperfect creatures? Actually I don't because an unbaptized child doesn't enter eternal damnation they enter into Limbo which is not a state of punishment. Peace.
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