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Everything posted by yusufar

  1. A Question About...eschatology

    Please see the explanation at the top for the answer.
  2. About The Apostates

    You may believe so, even if it is only your own assumption for which you yourself have absolutely no proof (that Muslims are in error or that the Qur'an is a flawed and contradictory document). If you feel secure in your own sense, that is entirely up to you. You may accept the claim of the Qur'an for what it is or not. The fact is that it is there, even if you are unable or refuse to understand it. And your argument only makes sense to someone who has made a massive leap of faith that this was not so. Your saying so is no proof that such claim has no basis in reality. You yourself may be suffering under a delusion caused by your own inability to see or accept the truth and your own flawed logic. I have looked at the Qur'an with disobedience in my heart, my critical mind switched on and whatever coloured spectacles of disbelief firmly glued to my eyes and I can still recognize the truth. If you can't then you must be blind, heartless and mindless. I repeat that there's nothing wrong with the teachings of Islam. Less humble Muslims may be misguided as to the teachings of Islam on this matter, but that is no case to blame Islam for. Islam is not about contempt or oppression, but rather the exact opposite. It is only the misunderstanding of the real teachings which needs to be revised. This is not easy, which is why there are not only unbelievers but misguided Muslims as well - all operating under the self-delusion that they are right, even if they are only making assumptions based on their own imperfect knowledge and interpretation. Again, this is a baseless assumption. It is not Islam which is in need of reform, but rather those of its followers who are unable to be at peace not merely with non-Muslims but other Muslims as well. What you believe to be true freedom of speech and thought does not exist except in Islam. True freedom of speech and thought is not welcome anywhere, much less in countries which are only purportedly Muslim but where the real teachings of Islam are not welcome. To you be your way and to me mine. That is one of the fundamental teachings of Islam. I am truly totally at peace with that, even if some Muslims may not be. Voice your disagreement by all means, and I have seen many of you who will bring it to extremes that give lie to your purported tolerance and avowed freedom of thought and speech (and pretend to be surprised and even shocked that there are Muslims who will react with extremism as well). Personally I am of the view that those who purportedly eschew the virtues of democracy, freedom of thought and speech are the worst abusers when it comes to committing acts of oppression, anger and violence and many Muslims (and other non-Muslims as well) have become their victims over the ages right up to the present times. Again you are wrong. Islam does not need protection from anything at all. Islam has survived and will continue to survive any satire, criticism, rational or irrational argument and even insults. How Muslims feel is an entirely different matter. I'm quite sure if I insulted you under the guise of freedom of speech, there would come a point where you would retaliate, perhaps even violently. Absolutely. But this doesn't mean that its adherents can or will. Again, do not confuse Islam with the actions of some of its followers. Many actions of Muslims can be un-Islamic. The fact that Islam is the truth and has declared it so makes it dangerous to people who for reasons of their own do not want to accept the truth and you fear it, justifiably. I don't blame you either.
  3. Llogical Is A Hypocrite

    :sl: Please discuss only beneficial topics here. Chit-chat and idle talk between brothers and sisters violate our forum rules. If you're bored or just want to chill out, you can do that freely in your gender room. Thank you for your understanding, and for helping us keep this forum's Islamic code of conduct.
  4. Llogical Is A Hypocrite

    I do not see any benefit in this thread and I am closing it.
  5. About The Apostates

    Yes, absolutely. All purported contradictions arise from our own failing to comprehend or our putting our own interpretations above God's logic. All fundamental flaws come about out of our own mistakes. Let us not attribute such mistakes to God. The human condition is such that even if such perfection is attained, there is no guarantee (perhaps one may say rightfully so) that other humans will accept it for what it is, even if a fairly large number do - that is free will in action. The majority of humans will not attain any such level of perfection, but that does not mean that the standard of perfection does not exist, whether you accept it or not. The human condition is such that everything is subject to human interpretation, even when a standard of perfection exists - this becomes a reference point for all human thought, intention and conduct, imperfect or flawed though it may be. Humans will argue, fight and go to war even about basic concepts of right and wrong, even when the standards of right and wrong have already been set out, whether by God or human society itself. See my remarks above. You cannot equate your logic with that of God and you cannot judge the Qur'an by your own standards. Belief is a strange thing, partly logic and partly faith, yet having as its basis its own truth - whether you accept it or not is immaterial to its relevance. All of the human condition is wide open to interpretation and this is not a peculiarity of Islam - that is what makes us human. As far as I am concerned there is no muddle on the subject of apostasy, but that does not stop anyone, Muslim or otherwise, from making a muddle out of it. That is one of the main differences between God and man. There is no debate with God's logic but when it comes to mankind, everything - even that which is otherwise totally logical - is open to debate. Even if Jesus (pbuh) were to descend to earth and proclaim that he is only a human being and not "Son of God", this would be subject to intense debate and many of his own so-called followers would reject it (and him), even if it were the truth and it was completely logical. Logic or perversion? This is a fundamental error. Only the Qur'an is perfect, since it was revealed and dictated word for word directly from God through the Archangel Gabriel to the Prophet (pbbuh). There are many different types of Hadith which have been reported, not all of which may be considered authentic or "strong" based on various criteria which were applied by the early scholars of Islam, primarily the chain and quality of narration, etc. based on the overall trustworthiness of each narrator. Even those Hadith which could be considered authentic may prove to be not so upon greater examination and study, in particular those which contradict the Qur'an - these have nothing to do with the Prophet (pbbuh) and could even be fabrications. As far as I am concerned, the Prophet (pbbuh) could not have contradicted the Qur'an in any way and any Hadith which appears to do so is suspect unless there are acceptable Islamic reasons for it which are based on the Qur'an. The quest for such perception should be the main goal of human existence, thought and conduct for it will lead to nearness to God and acceptance by Him. It is not really a tall order at all, unless you want to perceive it as being so. What would you call someone who has found the truth and then abandons it? Anyway I did say "at worst". You may call it a cheap shot if you wish, but it is certainly better than being put to death for it. I would not by any means treat anyone, even an apostate with contempt, far less deep contempt - pity perhaps, but contempt never. But then again, I personally would not even jump to such a conclusion, since I could also be wrong for even thinking of such a person as being stupid. Perhaps through this experience he may even get closer to God...is still a distinct possibility if he was to sincerely repent - which he would not have the opportunity of doing if he was sentenced to death.
  6. * Funny Quotes*

    "Democracy: The worship of jackals by jackasses". H. L. Mencken "America is a country that doesn't know where it is going but is determined to set a speed record getting there". Laurence J. Peter "Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons". Bertrand Russell "The smaller the mind the greater the conceit". Aesop "It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument". William G. McAdoo "Terrorism is the war of the poor. War is the terrorism of the rich." - Leon Uris, Trinity, a Novel of Ireland, 1976
  7. Is Bible The Word Of God

    What the Qur'an says about the "seven heavens" is beyond your comprehension and what you seek to relate it to based on your own defective understanding is not only completely irrelevant but ignorant as well. These "seven heavens" have absolutely nothing to do with the 5 planets visible to the naked eye, pus the sun and the moon. That is only your own mistaken assumption, yet you seem to be aware that the non-solar stars are further away than all the planets. The Qur'an in fact confirms this. The mistaken ancient notion that the planets, the sun and the moon revolved around the earth had nothing to do with the Qur'an and in fact this mistaken belief which was rife in Christianity was dispelled by the Qur'an. Muslims knew this to be the reverse - that the earth revolved around the sun - because of the Qur'an. If the stars adorn the lowest level of these "seven heavens", then that is the limit of human knowledge, up to the furthermost galaxies of the stars known to man which are perhaps billions of light years away. The "seven heavens" are even further away than that. Whatever "shooting stars" are, you certainly have no idea what happens in the spiritual realm since you probably assume that the spiritual realm does not exist. If the Qur'an states that these meteors become "missiles" to drive away the evil ones then that is what they do, apart from their purely physical and material effects. Just because your finite mind cannot accept that certainly does not mean that the Qur'an is the product of fallible human intelligence. In reality what you have shown is only your own ignorance. Please think more/harder and do more research before bombarding us with such misleading statements.
  8. God's Existence

    Perhaps that is what your ego wants you to think. What proof? Logically it can also be proof that your ego does get in the way of truth. My proof is that I refuse to let my ego get in the way of what I already know. Sounds like your ego talking. Massive self-deception going on here under the quise of looking for evidence - which your ego has rejected and will continue to reject as long as you let it. Pray for your own good that you manage to overcome your ego. Question is pray to whom? :D I see your logical dilemna. :D
  9. God's Existence

    There is only one thing stopping anyone from acknowledging the existence of God, logically or otherwise - and that is that person's own ego. Our ego tells us we know more than anyone else - so no matter what anyone else says and that includes God, we know better. Why should we be guided or swayed or "conditioned" by anything or anyone else except ourselves - even God? We are preconditioned by our own egos yet complain about being preconditioned by God or religion or whatever. We are the only creatures who have been given that free will to decide for ourselves whether we want to follow the dictates of our own egos or to submit to the will of God. Knowing the consequences of our actions or inactions, it is only the stubbornness of our own desires that will disallow us from acknowledging the existence of God and what we need to do to ensure our own personal salvation. It is this characteristic that distinguishes mankind from the rest of creation - and it has the potential to elevate man to a level higher than that of the angels or to bring him to a level lower than that of the devils. Logically or otherwise, you choose which you want to be! Do the math yourself, no matter how you calculate it, there is only 1 right answer, whether you accept it or not. Good luck! - Even if luck has nothing to do with it.
  10. Whats This Religion?

    In my experience, inadequate though it may be, if you are sincerely looking for the right path or the truth, and keep trying, you will find it, beyond any doubt. There will be obstacles along the way, sometimes caused by our own inadequacies and way of looking at things, but sincerity tends to neutralise such obstacles...It all depends on what you are really looking for.
  11. Males Having Underage Sex

    Islam does not condone any such thing and you know it. While it may be unique to certain "Muslims", Islam is totally against it. Kind regards, yusufar
  12. Evolution?

    No problem. Misunderstanding is also one of the basic building blocks of the universe. In the very second line of my post I said: "Everything we see (and do not see) did not come into existence by itself - with the exception of God. Everything else other than God is His Creation." Is this not clear? I really don't know how much clearer I can be. What is it you do not understand of this? As far as I am concerned, and this I believe is the Islamic position as well, Creation (by the Word "Be!") is the process by which everything in the natural world was brought about. Nothing was ever created or brought about by evolution, except change of what was originally created by God - which is as it was meant to be. As far as I am aware, only mankind has not been subject to this evolutionary change - we have remained basically the same as when the first man was created. Evolution can never explain how anything in nature was brought about, but only how nature or natural life has changed over a long period of time. Attempts by so-called evolutionists to expand this into a concept of how life itself came into being fall far short of any such intention, leading to many missing links, including the "Missing Link" - that between apes and man. In reality there is no such link so it cannot be missing nor will it ever be found. There is only ONE explanation for the existence of everything as we know it in nature and that is Creation by God. There is no contradiction between Creation and evolution, since evolution is an integral part of the process that natural life has been programmed to go through after Creation - each change is not and need not be a new Creation but merely a process shaped by environmental and other factors. I trust I have been able to make myself clearer.
  13. Evolution?

    Evolution is only a theory, but there is solid evidence for it. Did I say or even imply that creation was brought about by evolution? :D Kind regards, yusufar
  14. The Truth?

    If this thread is going to degenerate into a mudslinging contest, I will have no hesitation in closing it. This is not the way of dialogue. Apologize to each other, guys and tone it down please. Kind regards, yusufar
  15. Evolution?

    Contrary to popular belief, Islam and evolution are not incompatible or in opposition to one another nor does Islam contradict evolution. Everything we see (and do not see) did not come into existence by itself - with the exception of God. Everything else other than God is His Creation. All Creation has a basic building block and everything was created with that basic building block - as to what it is that is for you to find out :D - Islam knows the answer and I believe even science has recently become aware of it. Even the smallest created thing (call it atom or quark or lepton or gluon - or whatever) is made of this basic building block - which essentially by itself has no substance. Suffice to say for the time being that before God created all of Creation, nothing else existed other than God and that the basic building block of Creation is not of the Essence of God. God alone is not subject to time. All Creation is subject to time. With time comes change. With change comes evolution. With evolution comes experience. With experience comes science. With science comes explanation. With explanation comes understanding. With understanding comes enlightenment. With enlightenment comes awareness. With awareness comes submission to God. God did not create the first human being at the beginning of Creation but rather at the end of it. The first human being whom God created (Adam [pbuh]) was unique and complete in himself and not subject to evolution as everything else created millions (or even billions) of years before him was. Let us be clear on this. Kind regards, yusufar
  16. The Truth?

    Patience, my friend. As you know (or perhaps did not realise) yesterday/the day before was the Muslim festival of the 1st of Shawal, just after the fasting month of Ramadhan, and most Muslims have been celebrating and entertaining guests to their homes or visiting friends and relatives. It's no different for me and I was too busy and later too tired to open up my computer. But things will get back to normal pretty fast I believe. Kind regards, yusufar
  17. It would be useful and save a lot of time and trouble if new posters (both Muslim and Non-Muslim) who use English translations of the Qur'an were to read and understand the following article: (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.meforum(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/article/717"]Assessing English Translations of the Qur'an[/url] Knowing that each of the translations have their own particular biases and understanding exactly what these are will certainly go a long way towards a proper understanding of the Qur'an in the original Arabic, even if still approximate. What is even more important is to approach such study and attempt at understanding with good intentions to know the truth and not just to put down everything which is merely either mistakenly or purposely assumed to be a proper translation. This article may in itself not be sufficent for the above purposes, but is a good starting point for further study and understanding of any (English) translation of the Qur'an - a prerequisite for those - both Muslim and non-Muslim - who sincerely want to know more about Islam. Kind regards, yusufar
  18. English Translations Of The Qur'an

    (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.newstatesman(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/200408090035"]Lost in Translation by Ziauddin Sardar[/url] Most English-language editions of the Qur'an have contained numerous errors, omissions and distortions. Hardly surprising, writes Ziauddin Sardar, when one of their purposes was to denigrate not just the Holy Book, but the entire Islamic faith... Review of "The Qur'an" Translated by M A S Abdel Haleem, Oxford University Press
  19. Apostasy in Islam

    Nothing can contradict the Qur'an! :D Perhaps these hadith may not be so sahih after all or there is a context to them which you may not be aware of. Try harder. :D As I have stated in another thread on a similar issue, which since you are bringing it up again, I will repeat here: "First of all, if Muslims accept the fact that the Qur'an is the literal Word of God that was put in the mouth of the Prophet (pbbuh), which they do, then there cannot be any contradictions, except for later verses which have abrogated other previous verses. On this issue the Qur'an is very clear - there is no compulsion in religion - that is a basic tenet of Islam. There really is freedom of choice to believe or not to believe in Islam. The Qur'an itself does not specify any temporal or worldly penalty for not believing or even for apostacy (disbelieving after believing). How does this square with the fact that punishment in the Hereafter is prescribed for not believing? Isn't that compulsion and isn't that therefore a contradiction? Here one has to be extremely careful about one's position. God has prescribed punishment for unbelief or disbelief and He has also prescribed that there should be no compulsion in religion. What does this mean? Is God contradicting Himself here? Far from it, in fact absolutely NOT. Having prescribed a set of beliefs or truths for mankind's guidance and way of life in Islam, God has both also prescribed a punishment in the Hereafter for not believing and following that guidance and way of life AND given mankind the choice of whether to believe in it and follow it or not. It cannot be any other way. The choice of whether to believe in Islam or not is and must be voluntary and of the individual's own free will, notwithstanding the other-worldly punishment for not believing and accepting Islam. If such punishment had not been so prescribed, what would be the difference between believing and not believing then? No difference! - because whether you believed or not you wouldn't be punished. Happy bliss and real freedom of choice as far as non-Muslims are concerned! They can say what they like about God and His prescribed religion for humankind and get away with it - why become a Muslim then? The difference is that - just as with any other belief - no one can force anyone else to follow Islam and become a Muslim. The acceptance of Islam and its beliefs must come out of real and voluntary internal conviction. This is the meaning of "there is no compulsion in religion". There is no way therefore that there can be any punishment in this life for not believing or for apostacy. Why does such a ruling or "law" exist in Islam therefore? This issue has of course troubled many Muslims minds and been capitalised on by practically all non-Muslims. Let us be very clear about one thing - given the explanation above, such a ruling or law is not in accordance with the Qur'an or God's prescriptions and can therefore be regarded as non-Islamic or un-Islamic, notwithstanding any "scholarly" support for it or (mistaken) belief that it is/was prescribed by God or His Prophet (pbbuh). What therefore should we make of any purported ruling by the Prophet (pbbuh) to "kill the apostates" and which has become the basis for such a law in "Islam"? Even if the majority of Muslims and Muslim scholars agreed on it, it would not be right according to the basic tenets of Islam. Yet it exists and Muslims are troubled to explain it or accept it without question or critical enquiry. Most Muslim scholars who are against such a law point out that it is based on an unauthentified report. Whatever the case is, it certainly cannot be accepted as a bare ruling or law which contradicts the Qur'an. The circumstances surrounding such a ruling (if the fact of it has been authentified beyond doubt) must also be studied. It is obvious that there can be no human law in Islam against (plain) apostacy per se or by itself. However, for example, apostacy which amounts to treason is or could be an entirely different matter. Even then it could amount only to a man-made law and not a God-given one. The Qur'an even cites the case of "multiple apostacy" which would not be possible if the death penalty was the penalty for even one instance of such an "offence". Yet over the course of time, such a man-made law could become "accepted" as Islam, even if there is no prescription for it in the real Islam. Would this make such a law "Islamic"? I don't think so. All nations have laws against treason - most notably the penalty is death, although in some countries a more "enlightened" citizenry with more "humane" ideas has resulted in this being changed to life imprisonment, but a serious penalty nevertheless. There is obviously more to the ruling "kill the apostates" than meets the eye and Muslims should not accept it as it is nor should non-Muslims condemn Islam on the basis of something which may not even be "Islamic" in the first place. As I have pointed out in another thread in this forum, which pardon me for repeating, "many Muslims today, just like non-Muslims as well, carry with them the baggage of centuries of cultural, social and personal prejudices which to them represent "Islam" but is far from the real teachings of Islam. Most people (Muslim and non-Muslim alike) find such entrenched prejudices self-comforting and will not make any effort to change or to even enquire about what the real situation is or should be, yet they will fight to the death and kill many innocents in the process to preserve or worse still propagate what is in reality only highly prejudiced and perverted beliefs. Sad, really."" Kind regards, yusufar
  20. Define Proof.

    I would say that the fact that we are alive is sufficient proof, except if one wants to see human and other life as a whole series of complex coincidences, except perhaps for facts such as the fact that there would be no life at all on earth if the moon was only a hundred miles closer. Is that just a coincidence or by Divine design? Demanding greater proof to me is just an exercise in futility. Science has its limits, and science can only show proof of existence or how life exists but it can never prove why life exists and many other things. For example, science can never prove that the soul exists. Anyone who believes only in science is therefore condemning himself to disbelief in God, whereas in reality, according to religious belief, ALL science is really itself a proof (or if you like "sign") of God's existence and therefore explanatory of the existence of life. The outer limits of science is only the beginning of religion, spiritualism and belief in God. There is nothing incompatible between belief in God and science from this point of view. Science's limits and inability to explain everything should not be taken as proving the non-existence of God. God and life is more than just science. If the advocates of science as it is and by itself cannot accept that, it is certainly not our responsibility to prove otherwise and they will bear their own responsibility for such self-limitations. Most scientists would certainly believe in God, but to those who don't, well then - you can prove to yourself all you want that He does not exist and you can define that proof whichever way you want. As believers, we do not need proof, to define proof or to prove anything to you. There are none so blind as those who will not see and that includes the Blind Watchmaker. Kind regards and good luck to you, yusufar
  21. No cussing and swearing on my watch, thank you. Rude words also not permitted. :D Kind Regards, yusufar
  22. God's Existence

    Dear all, This thread doesn't seem to be going anywhere and in grave danger of being closed. I shall let it go on for a little while longer to keep those who seem to be amused happy until others get unhappy. :D Kind regards, yusufar
  23. You may think that that is unreasonable, but it is only yourself that is being unreasonable. Islam is not just an ideology but a way of life and for the most part peaceful and at peace with others and between its followers and God, unlike the magnified negative portrayal by the West and Western media of a few extremists who do not represent true Islam. No matter how great any ideology (or in the case of Islam, way of life) is, it cannot prevent any of it's followers or others from representing it in a negative light and therein lies the fallacy of your argument. What you perceive is not what it is or what the majority of right-thinking people perceive it as. The truth is evident and clear from error. Prejudice and perversion are obvious except to those who will not see. Kind regards, yusufar
  24. Obsession

    Only those posted by members who have not yet reached 50 posts, the idea being to avoid first timer posters from posting inappropriate and offensive links (yes it does happen) and that only those who are sincerely interested in discussion will persevere until they reach 50 posts (this may not by itself stop any troublemakers from persevering...but our moderators are quite vigilant!) Persevere, my friend, and you will reach 50 posts before you even know it. Kind Regards, yusufar
  25. Then you have not learned anything at all about Islam. Perhaps you may have been misled by what some Muslims do into thinking that that is Islam? Try to put aside what some "dedicated" Muslims do and study the real Islam instead. Many Muslims today, just like non-Muslims as well, carry with them the baggage of centuries of cultural, social and personal prejudices which to them represent "Islam" but is far from the real teachings of Islam. Most people (Muslim and non-Muslim alike) find such entrenched prejudices self-comforting and will not make any effort to change or to even enquire about what the real situation is or should be, yet they will fight to the death and kill many innocents in the process to preserve or worse still propagate what is in reality only highly prejudiced and perverted beliefs. Sad, really. Kind regards, yusufar