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  1. My apologies, I had no idea that word in particular was banned. I strike the stars and replace it with "half-thought-about" and hope that helps :D
  2. I didn't quite get that from the letter, but I do see your point on that and I can understand but I feel it isn't particularly the point as stated. The wider issue is, now that this has "kicked off" people will get information about WHY these things are done, which is why I don't regard teh arrogance dripping in this letter important (in addition to what's already been said) because no doubt it will subside once this debate has run through its course. Again, contemplating I see your point but I originally thought this was due to this "east-meets-west" thing whereas the West has fought for this liberation of being able to flaunt ourselves he'll see this as an affront to womens' rights rather than exercisal thereof. Probably my original response was partly trying to play devils' advocate and the rest I'm not sure because I can't remember... :D I'm not sure which part your referring to and I won't bother checking because that response was probably half-******* done to be quite frank and probably an initial rather not well-thought out response (shred me at your will). That said, I totally agree- and I do support the wearing of the veil and I'm definitely sure I didn't say that I disagreed with it. Never seen them. If I were a dictator, I'd ban contemplative nuns. End of. However, comparing a habit to the most conservative veils (the ones where I was admitting they're intimidating) is like apples and pears. However, I'm not a Christian so you can't ask that of me and expect the response I think you're hoping for. Thank you for pre-answering :D However, you're missing the point: a pin stripe suit as opposed to a veil is stupid because they're different items. I see your point that you want me to say in turn that I wouldn't ban those things but I'm not about to ban the veils either. I am perfectly comfortable with my answer- because I'm not about to ban anyone from wearing anything. Or ban people who don't wear anything. I am uncomfortable with your accusations or implications but I only have myself to blame for that because I've obviously not put across my real viewpoint there and with that I apologize for wasting your time. stop that now. That is something I've not said nor intended to imply. I have no prejudices, as opposed to the rest of my family, on the grounds that I know no muslims and therefore have no right to judge. I'm sorry you've misinterpreted that. Incidentally, I did meet a muslim on Monday (well I was under the impression he was a hindu due to what my mum had told me... she didn't know apparently... very irrelevant story and I was remeeting him) and to be honest, I didn't see him any differently when I thought he was a hindu, didn't know either way and when I did find out he was a muslim. We shared viewpoints on a few issues, including the veils. You cannot be racist when prejudicing an idea. But I don't practise this. And in the UK, they shouldn't be illegal to criticize an idea in the very least. All through your post, you have (probably due to my rash posting) presumed I am prejudiced and yet you now are doing the same thing. You have seen this: 1 post? in that post, you see I say I would be intimidated at the most conservative veil. I am clearly a "Westener" And from that you've managed to presume this: I will hate muslims when I meet one on an intimate level I support bigotry and forcing ideas down peoples' throats that don't want them And I am racist automatic decisions because of one post. Again, part of that could be my fault but I see the majority of hte blame to you. I believe I have been tolerant of these assumptions throughout your post because I acknowledge that my post hasn't best reflected my opinion but now is the time to set things straight. To reiterate everything I've said in my post so far: 1) I accept the wearing of the veil (I can't say I actively encourage it because to be frank something that covers ones' face and reading through the topic again where it's made women feel EXPECTED to be modest and feeling OBLIGED to do certain things (whether they've made the choice or not to live up to them) and added to the fact it's a relatively alien concept to me I can't encourage it when it's not something I believe in. The religion I follow encourages many of the things Islam and others forbid) 2) my "Quasi-religion of human rights" - please clarify what that means? Are you saying I'm following a fake religion because it isn't [edit: yours] or are you saying that my veiw of human rights is quasi? I can refute the latter because I swear by a general rule of "if it isn't doing anyone any harm, it's fine with me" and another of "speak in any manner of what you like because they're only words even if they do offend" and if beleiving in a more-or-less absolute free speech and beleiving in the freedom to do what you want both in public and in private so long as it hurts no one (as well as seperation of religion and state completely [i.e indeed sacking the teacher who's under suspension for wearing the veil and compromising her ability to do her job according to the children and ousting bishops from the House of Lords and removing the church affairs of the monarch]) Then indeed, I am following a "quasi" religion of human rights. Anyway, in short, I apologize for any confusion that I have caused in the contradictions that appear between the two posts because they were written in different moods as well as a hundred other different motives that are strange to me as well. But please take this post as an amendment or clarification. Best wishes.
  3. Islam in England

    Shame!!! :D
  4. Not Wearing The Veil?

    Look, I'm (very bad word would go here if I were less of a person) sick of this "defenciveness" there is nothing to defend because it has not been attacked. Please realise, he ASKS the veil to be removed. He doesn't DEMAND or REQUIRE that it be moved, and if they decline (as they are totally free to do so) then there is no consequence. Your sisters in Islam, your sisters in law and sisters that moved out with her boyfriend last month will always be free to wear a veil. Please get the facts straight that he doesn't actually force them to remove the veil, and protesting against this (what I consider) reasonable request is only violating HIS right to want to see the person he's talking to. I am totally behind Mr Straw in this matter. I'm also behind you guys if anyone actually demanded it be removed in a public place (such as a surgery) or if anyone rips it off without legitimate cause. I'm sure Mr Straw and 99.9% of the country is. I'd also like to wonder, if it takes an external influence to solidify religious beleifs then there is a question about how much you really beleive in the first place... and if you are certain you're solid and comfortable with your faith why does it need to change because one person has said he asks you to do what you're already doing... Forever in my humble if not outspoken opinion
  5. Godless Approach At Morality

    Answer: the fear of all those things happening to him. I don't understand how you mention in reference to heaven and hell and then say you don't want it referenced....
  6. On the whole, good letter. I do think this persons' intent is not to portray a holier-and-wiser-than-thou attitude but to show genuine concern. The most conservative veils are intimidating, because you cannot see the person you are dealing with. I do think the veils should be banned in school, or allow all people to wear pretty much what they like in schools. Because, I don't personally care how many religions or how old it is or how great their messiah is, all things should be fair. Either all should be allowed to wear veils etc or none. Mr. Cooper's second point is totally valid: the government is a facilitator to individuals, it shouldn't have concern for cults, sub-societies and so forth. It's JOB primarily is to make sure that all individuals get on well with each other or are in a safe environment. I will accept that there is a tone of arrogance, but with all greatest respect meant, I do not think that the British people feel as though they are being treated in the way one is meant to treat Muslims, in a signifigant minority of cases. Most of my family do feel that they're treated with disrespect by the muslim community. I do not, because I know no muslims personally. Every time there is a debate on an Islamic issue there're always stories on how someone feels disrespected by Muslims and there's always a muslim who seems to be demanding what others do not hope to acheive in this country. That being said, this is why I'm not surprised they've printed this letter: the people need to be represented by the paper that they're patron of. This person seems to be representing the views of the readers and therefore that's why it's printed.
  7. Paganism

    One MUST choose is an oxymoron. :D I agree, blindly following anything is stupid. Whatever religion you are, if you do it because your family do it, then more fool you. I made a concious decision to convert to my religion despite disapproval from my parents... but there you go. to the origin: If you are a pagan, good for you. I won't ask why on a religious high ground, but I will ask out of curiosity. human sacrifice? I don't know about that...
  8. On the contrary, it does give us the right to criticise and insult providing it isn't slanderous or libelous. Islam might restrict you from insulting or depicting the prophet, but it doesn't stop anyone else. That being said, I'm not 100% sure in what context the cartoons were drawn, but according to BBC it was almost a dare from the writer of a book to illustrate. I'm not sure of the contents of the book, but because the prophet is dead, and I'm under the impression that dead people's estates can't sue for libel... it is perfectly legal. However, speaking of the issue of freedom of speech, the last time I checked, threatening someone with death was a crime. Needless to say, I'm not trying to tar anybody with the brush of incitement to murder, but what I am saying is that crime was committed on the inciter's part not on the paper's part.
  9. About Atheism..

    I could disprove the monkey- I merely have to reach out to your shoulder and see if I can touch it. Should you say it has moved- I shall move to where you say it is now. Failing that, I shall brandish a stick until I heard a monkey scream. Without hearing the monkey scream- you could argue he has got away- but then, you still wouldn't have an invisible monkey now would you? Because he's run away and you'll never find him. Unless you have heat goggles. Then I shall request to see the monkey through them. You'll argue he doesn't emit heat- he will be a dead monkey.
  10. Islam in England

    I too am glad that we can talk frankly :D I'm certain most muslims do engage with non muslims on a generally regular basis (be it for work or for social gatherings, it's almost impossible not to in this country) but I mean that Allah is irrelevant in this not to disrespect your god (mainly because I feel that nothing I can ever say will ever change the opinion of any muslim on Allah) but simply to say- surely you could go to your god on the day of judgement and say to him: "You will know this, but just in case you've got a bit too much on your mind to have it in the focus of mind: I tried my level best not only to live in the way you've asked me to, but I've also tried to bring the world to an understanding of us and thus left others to follow the way in peace" If I was Allah, I'd be damn impressed. :D I am glad you feel at home here, it is your right to do so. Referring to an earlier post about you being accused of things because of your religion, I can relate to that. I've been spat on for my religion. But going back on topic. we neither want wars launched in our name either... we are being dragged into the same place as the US here. I wasn't trying to say that it was solely you (as a muslim community) who could solve this problem, I was merely saying that you need to do PR to boost the image of Islam so that some of the inhabitants of the UK feel less prejudiced and scared by Islam so we can bridge the gap- I just feel it is only the muslim community that can instigate this kind of relationship... as the media (biased or unbiased as you view it) seems to portray muslims as a sort of secret cult type thing until something annoys them and then suddenly bang all hell lets loose. Again, returning the wishes.
  11. Pope Sorry For Offending Muslims

    What gives you the right to tell him what he cannot say? If he had just quoted Christianity, it would have been fine. I sincerely believe as much as I do not like the Pope, that the quote (in context) was an invitation to allow frank dialogue. Even if he DID stand up on the podium and say "HAHAHA IslamS ARE STUPID INNIT AIGHT GO JESUS Allah IS" whatnot and had a fat kick off at you guys, his freedom of speech (and more importantly, his freedom to be completely stupid and ignorant) should be respected. Disagree vocally yes, however, I believe that the portrayed reaction was disproportionate.
  12. Islam in England

    Thank you for replying so quickly, Emel :D You highlighted many points which I agree with but you must understand they're not really my opinions (alright, most of the time, I'll be honest) when I say things like "you should remove head-dresses" I say what other people are saying to me. Mind you, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, so I feel that either EVERYONE should "take their hats off to crime" or no one does. :D Fair. Likewise, it is just as degrading for me to be stereotyped as a theif and being asked to remove my hoodie (when I wear it with the hood up of course) just as much as it would be for you to be asked to remove the head covering. I notice on rereading my post I say: "We constantly hear about how our government is (wasting money) in reaching out to greet muslims, but muslims don't seem to reach out to us" this poorly represents what I was trying to say, I was more trying to say things like the Muslim council and things being consulted every 5 minutes as the waste of money. Not particularly including everyone or welcome those from abroad (I don't assume you've immigrated by the way). I am pleased you notice a lot of people going out to seek information about Islam, I unfortunately do not. They either don't care, or don't want to care and wish to stereotype. I find this mostly in my family or those older than me and set in their ways. The point of my post is- try and take a look from our view, and how we are being shown it. I personally and respectfully find it irrelevant about what Allah says about no one burdens the soul of another, because that won't help you. It won't stop you being called a "Paki terrorist" (it took me a while to figure out what was behind the stars, I prefer a frank approach) and it won't stop the Muslim community being alienated in a nation that they are an equal part of. So their burden will become your burden if you lot, as I said before, don't do a bit of PR and make it very obvious that you are just as appalled and sickened (as I've seen that you are here) by terrorism. To the post immediately after mine, you seem to have it right on the nail. Animosity is growing, and I think that as much as it seems unfair on Muslims to all be blamed for the acts of a few... you really need to make it obvious you are different. I seem to be some of the few in the people I talk about Islam with that will advocate it. Maybe where I live is just like that, but certainly over the last ten years patience has run out (and I have found myself like that a few times... luckily I've had the opportunity to come here and came to my senses). Peace to you also :D
  13. Islam in England

    Islam in England though... it encourages terms like "English" and so on. I have a huge chip on my shoulder with this kind of thing. It seperates us from our other British brethren who fought in WWII with us and so on. This shouldn't happen, or soon the Union might dissolve... (this is bad) But anyway, to Emel, I respect as do most that you have the right to do these things. But surely you can understand people are irritated when your (undemocratically elected) representatives demand "seperate holidays" just for "you". It isn't fair, nor is it productive for the economy. Things that people don't find fair either is that while we teens are forced to remove our hoodies and caps, you may keep your head-covering on, which is quite prejudiced. I don't have a major problem with Islam, but slowly but surely I think Islam is becoming less and less popular, and unfortunately - it is for you to deal with. We constantly hear about how our government is (wasting money) in reaching out to greet muslims, but muslims don't seem to reach out to us. This may just be because of the media but I personally can't see it. Also, statements such as "We want to see the flags of Islam fly over downing street" are quite offensive when at the same time you are seen to demand that we cannot fly our England flags at the time of the world cup on the grounds that it is offensive (reminders of the crusade) (note: England as a football team- flag OK!) . You guys have serious PR to do :D Not a lot of us will join forums like this to get a true scope of Islam.
  14. This is a Guardian article, need I say more? The paper is "chronically" and ridiculously left wing, and I find they will go with whatever the people in the wrong say and will fight to defend those who cannot be excused. Of course the Pope should be bemused. I was *A*mused and apalled by the reaction of Muslims across the world by a quote that wasn't his own. I daresay this author will have no idea whether or not the pope quoted with "apparent approval" because if it truly was "apparent" he would've said that he agreed with the opinion. How this author can state the west is "islamophobic" and "incurably" so is laughable. Neither are we anti-semitic on the whole. You'll always get nutters in the west who are Islamophobes but then again you'll always get nutters in the east who'll launch a terrorist attack- it doesn't mean we can stereotype an entire hemisphere/region of the world by the actions or opinion of one man. Silly woman.