Jump to content
Islamic Forum


  • Content count

  • Joined

  • Last visited

Everything posted by fallow

  1. Torture In Hell

    If I was an omniscient god I would not need to set up a "test" in the first place. I'd know the results already. And if I was a good god I would not set up a system where eternal torture was the punishment for anything, much less the non-crime of being ungrateful.
  2. One that proved the existence of supernatural beings - let's say angels. And by 'proved', I mean in a replicable experiment. A genuine 'miracle' would do, too, but proof will be more difficult - hearsay isn't evidence. (I realise that there are claims for lesser paranormal events which I also think are wrong, but I'm not going to be able to prove or disprove vague reports of Russians doing ESP or whatnot. Anyway, it ought to be equally as easy for you to prove angels as people doing card tricks.) That's exactly what I'm asking for. Sorry, but I didn't read all you 'argument from design' stuff. As I said earlier, I don't buy that argument. edit - OK, I see that that's your only argument, so I read it. You can't seriously think it proves anything. It's main argument seems to be that a TV couldn't exist via evolution. Of course a TV couldn't exist via evolition! It isn't a living thing reproducing by DNA! You surely can''t believe that that's a serious argument against evolution or for a god?
  3. {sniff} Are You A Zionist?

    Possibly, but that doesn't make it a full-blown war. I'm claiming that sending kids to blow up buses and lobbing missiles into towns will never defeat israel, and that that's all the Palestinians are capable of. You have a very dangerously naive idea of the strength of the US. Because you have been brainwashed into think that the US is doing the best it can to kill Muslims, you see the fact that it DOESN'T do this much as evidence that it is unable to do so. Wrong. If the US wanted to defeat (say) Syria and it was vitally important to defeat Syria, it would take about 10 minutes. By the way, do you know how long the Roman empire lasted? If the Palestinians' stupid friends had negotiated instead of invaded in 1967, Palestine would be a lot bigger and wealthier today. With each act of violence and retaliation the possible results of negotiation dwindle. It's as though the so-called friends of Palestine want it to suffer. Negotiation is the only option.
  4. Ayaan Hirsi Ali - The Liar

    That's the problem with hate-speech laws. They are too vague. It's better to have no restrictions. The definition of art has always ben a concern in law - it was always legal to display paintings of naked women, even when it was illegal to publish photographs of naked women. Film Festivals were allowed to show films that would have been censored or banned for ordinary cinemas. And so on. Many people believed that this showed a class bias - the people who went to art galleries and film festivals were supposed to be able to control themselves better than the less educated working class. Anyway, if your artwork is an artwork, you'll be able to defend it in debate with people who are offended. If you are charged you'll be able to defend yourself in court. But I agree, why should you? Better to have free speech. I don't know enough about the NSW Homosexual Villification law (which is actually just one small part of the Anti-discrimination Act) to say, but I do know that oponents of the law claimed that it would make reading the Bible aloud in public would become a crime, as the Bible advocates killing gays (or something). No-one has been charged with reading the bible aloud, nor do I know of any other frivolous charges. Whether this is because the law is designed to prevent this, or whether the legal system has enough common-sense to avoid it, I don't know.
  5. Seperate Religion And State?

    Umm, is there a truly Islamic country in the world now? No? So why can't we say that Islam has failed? But my point was that your solution to these social problems (some of which I don't agree ARE problems) is a totalitarian state. Things would have to be much, much worse than they are for me to agree that a totalitarian state is good idea.
  6. {sniff} Are You A Zionist?

    Palestine is nowhere near full-scale warfare. I'm prepared to give some credence to the line that the Pastinians are so traumatised that they can't help themselves. However, that doesn't excuse all the other Muslims who are urging them to continue the worse-than-futile violence. They will never defeat israel. Their violence directly causes more suffering for themselves. Their only hope is negotiation. Why don't you help work towards that? I repeat - if Mandela and De Klerk could negotiate the end of a far nastier regime, of much longer standing, affecting many more people, why can't the israelis and the Palestinians?
  7. {quote]The biggest Miracle of the Quran is that it has remained unchanged for 1400 years. I hope you don't really mean that that is the biggest 'miracle' - if it is, then I'm not going to be very impressed by the others. That simply isn't a miracle. It's easily explainable by non-supernatural means.
  8. Slavery

    Liberate "humanity" or only Muslims?
  9. Martyrdom Anniversary Of Iraqi President Saddam Hussein

    No, you don't have any credibility because no-one who thinks the moon landings were a hoax, and that George Bush and/or Zionists did 9/11 has any credibility. Just the way it is, I'm afraid.
  10. By the way, Dr James Randi is STILL offering US$1,000,000 for anyone who can prove a paranormal event in a controlled experiment. It has been on offer since the 1960s but no-oone has won it. Hop to it, believers!
  11. Ayaan Hirsi Ali - The Liar

    WHAT gayphobia laws? In my state and afaik throughout Australia there are laws against discriminating against people by their gender and sexual orientation in schools, workplaces and so on, but none specifically against sexist/anti-gay speech. The only specifically anti-hate-speech laws are those against racial villification, and afaik they only apply in one or two states. ***edit - apologies, one state does have a Homosexual Villification law. The rationale seems to be that there can be laws against villification about things we have no control over, such as gender, race and sexual orientation. Religion is a matter of choice, and thus in a different category. Luckily, no matter what anti-free-speech laws are enacted there's absolutely no way that great artworks such as 'Ulusses' would be prosecuted for anti-Catholicism or less great ones such as 'The Satanic Verses' for anti-Islam. If a perceived insult to Islam causes a violent reaction, the criminals will always be those who commit the violence, never the poeple whose ideas cause the violence. Ideas are what make us human - restricting them is a far gresater crime that hurting someone's feelings. One reason why a puritanical worldview is met so strongly by "the west" (and numerous other regions and countries) is that there has been a constant struggle between puritanical and humanistic forces in our cultures, but over the past 100 years or so the humanistic side has finally won. Everyone gets to vote, not only people who have penises, not only people who own a certain amont of property; no-one is forced to conform to gender sterotypes; no-one is forced to be afraid of a god; no-one is forced to censor themselves. Everyone is free to decide who they are and what they want to do (with the usual 'as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else caveat). You should try it. Yes, there are problems, no they do not outweigh the vast benefits in terms of human freedom.
  12. Ayaan Hirsi Ali - The Liar

    Cool. I don't think they should include hurting people's feeling by insulting supernnatural beings. They DEFINITELY shouldn't include anycensorip whatsoever of artworks (yep, that opens another can o' worms). Sorry, but this is cultural and historial. In the past (say, prior to the early 20th century), before strong building codes and so on, fires in theatres in western countries were often calamities causing huge loss of life. Because of this, people were extremely afraid of them, so shouting 'fire!' would cause a panic which would result in many injuries and possibly deaths. The same could happen today, despite the fact that the fire is unlikely to be as disastrous thanks to building regulations and better fire brigades. So, shouting 'fire!' is unlikely to be the best thing to do - informing the management so they can alert the fire brigade and implement their fire plan is the best thing to do. Sorry, no. 'Hate speech' cannot be defined as something that you, personally, find hateful. Nor can it be defined as something that your religion finds hateful. Artists must be free to say what they want. Restrictions of artists is a very strong clue that a society has problems. The same goes for free expression in general. Good, but why would you be against people who verbally attack (forget abot the spitting) women exposing an un-Islamic amount of skin in public? You would attack a film or a TV show that did the same, wouldn't you? You would object to a nude statue being studied in a school, wouldn't you?
  13. Martyrdom Anniversary Of Iraqi President Saddam Hussein

    Sorry, but "basic and simple" facts from you include "OMG Jews did 9/11!!!!" and "OMG the moon landings were a hoax!!!!" You don't have any credibility at all. No, of course not.
  14. Ayaan Hirsi Ali - The Liar

    Damn - this misuse of the word "lie" has infected me, too. I DON'T think it's (necessarily) a lie if Mormons tell me I'm going to hell unles I convert, I think they are simply mistaken. Similarly, it's quite likely that the Mohammed cartoonists were simply mistaken. For something to be a lie there has to be intent to deceive.
  15. Ayaan Hirsi Ali - The Liar

    OK. By the way, though, if someone produces an artwork offensive to (say) Mormons, and the Mormons vigorously object to it, that could be hate speech and illegal. You have to be extremely careful in framing laws to prevent hate speech. I don't actually regard the Danish cartoons as art, more as journalistic comment. But if Muslims regard them as a lie, so what? I regard the idea that I'm ghoing to hell unless I convert to Mormonism as a lie, but I don't want Mormons prevented from saying it. Actually, no - even if there is a fire, shouting 'fire' is a silly thing to do. But assuming that you are correct, my point about lack of education stands. If people were less liable to be panicked by fire there would be fewer problems. If people were less liable to be panicked by criticism of their religions there would be fewer problems. Precisely. Respecting an artist's right to say, film, write, or paint anything s/he wants is an essential part of a civilised society. Tolerating the ideas of people who do not have the same beliefs as you is another. Muslim men spitting on women wearing bikinis at Sydney beaches and calling them "whore" is not an example of respect or tolerance.
  16. Martyrdom Anniversary Of Iraqi President Saddam Hussein

    ... by the way, I don't really get your point about Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. Yes, I had forgotten that he confessed to just about everything except JFK's assasination. But you don't actually believe his confessions do you?
  17. Martyrdom Anniversary Of Iraqi President Saddam Hussein

    Yasnov, oddly enough I'm happy to be proven wrong. If you think that Bush is a worse war criminal than Saddam, let's hear your reasons.
  18. Martyrdom Anniversary Of Iraqi President Saddam Hussein

    I agree that he is responsible for deaths in Iraq, I don't agree that he planned them in the same way that Saddam did. (I don't agree that the figure is in the "millions".) I also think that Bush's culpanility is shared by the "insurgents", who are doing most of the actual killing of civillians, almost always with murderous intent.
  19. Anyway, no-one seems to be rushing in with evidence. I'll narrow it down. I would be convinced that supernatural events can occur if anyone can give me a replicable experiment which shows a physical effect of supernatural causation. That is, show me ANYTHING that happens which could not be caused by any non-supernatural process. It has to be replicable, not just theoretically but actually. Once I believe in the supernatural I can then test which particular claims about the supernatural might be true.
  20. Ayaan Hirsi Ali - The Liar

    No, I'm saying that the right to think and speak freely is one of the most important rights we have. If it needs some restrictions, (the classic "you have no right to shout 'Fire!' in a crowded theatre", for example) so be it. I don't much like racial villification laws (for example) but I can see that they might be needed in some circumstances. I definitely do not support religious villification laws. However, on the whole, people whose "emotional and mental well-being" are damaged by freely expressed ideas are probably not sufficiently educated in what it takes to live in a civilised society. If you want to live in a village where everyone thinks exactly the same (or is afraid to mention it if they don't), fine. Just don't try to enforce that cramped and sterile world on the rest of us.
  21. Ayaan Hirsi Ali - The Liar

    They can SAY what they like; they cannot DO what they like. Sorry, I don't understand this.
  22. Martyrdom Anniversary Of Iraqi President Saddam Hussein

    Really? Why do you say that? Bush may well be a war criminal. But that doesn't alter the fact that Saddam was a worse one. American law is very clear on that - American law always takes precedence over foreign law. Yasnov, you almost had me thinking that it would be worthwhile looking into who actually ordered the gassing of the Kurds, but then you came back to this DUMB 9/11 conspiracy stuff. Now I know there's no reason to check up about the Kurds. You do your cause a great deal of harm by defending nut-case theories.
  23. Martyrdom Anniversary Of Iraqi President Saddam Hussein

    Yeah, right. That's why all the Muslims in the US are in detention camps, as were the Japanese, Germans and Italians during WWII? That's why every Mulsim capital, from Djakarta to Dhaka to Dakka has been bombed? Get a grip. Also, 'the war on terror' might have been executed stupidly, but it was not baseless.
  24. Seperate Religion And State?

    twoswodrsali, I think your history is horribly wrong, but even if it wasn't, the problems you see would be equally as well solved by Communusm as Islam. Or any other puritanical, totalitarian system.
  25. Martyrdom Anniversary Of Iraqi President Saddam Hussein

    Come on now. Yes, both illegally invaded countries. No, Bush has not deliberately massacred civillians.