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melliodora

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  1. Nope, you fail to get the distinction between traits that an individual can develop and traits that can be passed on genetically. We don't have a problem with penicillin-resistent bacteria because individual bacteria become resistent - there would only be tiny numbers of them We have a problem when the bacteria change genetically and are able to pass the resistence to their offspring. Bacteria which are the offspring of genetically-changed penicillin-resistent bacteria are also penicillin-resistent before they ever meet penicillen. They are a slightly different species. That's evolution. The experiment (on what basis do you call it "silly"?) shows that one of the populations of bacteria evolved to be able to get carbon from citrate, which was not something its species was physically able to do before. This wasn't a matter of individuals being able to do it, but their offspring as well - the entire population could do it because it had evolved into a slightly different form. (That isn't the point of this experiment - evolution in the laboratory is so common that I would have to search back a long way to find papers from the time when it was novel. This experiment demonstrated that the evolutionary changes which had taken place in the bacteria were either the result of extremely rare mutations - which is why it took 30,000+ generations and why the other populations hadn't evolved in the same way, or - and this is what they were interested in - it was the individual history of this population over 30,000 generations which allowed the change to be made. Because part of the populations were frozen at various points, they can be reanimated to see if the changes happen if they get a chance to "replay" their history, and studied to see which were the changes which lead to the breakthrough, and what role contingency played.) Adaptiopn IS evolution, if it is able to be passed on to offspring. If the Koran says that mountains are stakes (and means it literally), then the Koran is wrong. However I haven't seen the passage where this is claimed to be said. I suspect that it's another case of ignorant people making the Koran look bad by claiming that it is saying something that it isn't.
  2. Obama

    The 12 Federal Reserve banks are controlled by a board selected by the Prsident and ratified by the Senate. It's difficult to see how fraud could be involved in this arrangement. It doesn't make any difference if the individual banks are privately owned or not. It's actually hard to imagine that Americans would put up with a socialist idea like the government owning the country's major bank. I can do massive C&Ps too, but instead here's a link to a well-reasoned argument against the conspiracy theory (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetusagold(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/federalreserve.html"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetusagold(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/federalreserve.html[/url] Here are a few pertinent paras, starting with the Conclusion:
  3. That's a pretty offensive rant. Luckily I am not as quick on the "report" button as some. You aren't being very coherent, but I'll summarize thae arguments (again) and we'll see if you can respond to them without losing your temper. 1. The earth's core is mostly iron. Look at any textbook or science website if you need proof of this. As ususal, Wikipedia has a succinct summary. It is not the case that the iron in the earth's core "came down", as it was present when the earth formed - there was no planet for it to "come down" to. 2. I'm not saying that the Koran is wrong when it says that iron arrived on earth via meterorites (the earth itself was a sort of a proto-meteor at one time), I'm saying that the fact that some meteroites are iron would have been known at the time. The Koran in fact does not claim that it is presenting new knowledge, it is offering a religious explanation for the phenomenon. The people who claim that it is miraculous are the frauds and the ignorant who damage Islam by making false claims about it. 3. Humans sought, mined and worked iron for thousands of years. they also sought, mined and worked many other metals. They knew how to make bronze long before the 7th century. They even knew how to make steel long before the 7th century. Worked iron was common on the Arabian Peninsula long before the 7th century. I have no idea if the Arabs made their own iron or bought it, but either way, they were familiar with iron and other metals. 4. Hiumans have long been interested in meteorites. Collections of meteorites by various ancient peoples have been found across the world. A human who knew about iron and who knew about meteorites would have no trouble determining if a meteroite was made of iron. It would have been the sort of fact that was passed around the iron-working community and also the astronomical community. 5. Here's the Abstract of a scientific paper about evolution observed in the laboratory. At the website (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetpnas(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/content/105/23/7899"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetpnas(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/content/105/23/7899[/url] you can read the full paper, details of the experiments and so on. If you can find fault with their methods and reasoning they would welcome it. That's how science works. 6. Mountains are not in any sense "anchors". Mountains are mostly formed either by the pushing up of the edges of colliding tectonic plates (for example, the Himalayas, which are young mountains), by volcanic activity (there are very old and very new volcanic mountains), or the wearing down by erosion of ancient plateaus (for example, most non-volcanic mountains in Australia - these are very old).
  4. As I said, you have suggested many tests by which one could detrermine whether or not there is a board. There are no equivalent tests for a supernatural being's existence. (Your analogy isn't terribly good, though - for a start it assumes a creator, the point it is trying to prove. And it would be better to say that everyone was handed thousands of employee handbooks with different rules, to go along with the thousands of religions.) No. I didn't say that and I specifically refuted that. It isn't what happens to an individual which defines a species, it's whether or not new genetic traits re passed to their offspring. Evolution is and cannot be separated from the its proposed holistic theory: That the first creation of life was by lightening striking amino acids and forming the first proteins which gained life and originated the first micro-organism, which over time developed into all creatures on Earth. Nonsense. Darwin's book is called 'The Origin of the Species', not 'The Origin of Life'. And it is not the case that biologists claim that there is just one possible way that life appeared. Research continues. Try reading some. It has been categorically disproven by agnostic and non-muslim professors and scientists using accurately recorded experiments, including Louis Pasteur, Sir Fred Hoyle, Charles Wickramasinghe and others, let alone that Darwin himself professed that we need evidence of intermediary fossils to back up the claim (none was found across 150 years except for the skull that turned out to be manufactured and half of a modern orangutan's) and that he based it on the thought that maggots were mutations of dead flesh, rather than they were laid in by flies When did Fred Hoyle - an astronomer - perform a biological experiment? If it was the case that there was not enough evidence for evolution to be the best current hypothesis about the development of life, it's odd that the vast majority of biologists, genetecists, palaeontologists etc think that it is. (There's no point in using the Argument from Authority - almost all the Authority supports evolution.) You call it a possible postulation only because there's no other way to start the Big Bang but are perfectly satisfied to cover your ears and eyes because everything a few milliseconds afterwards can have some imaginated way to explain it, as if those milliseconds are not the WHOLE importance of existence within themselves Please read what I write. If you are saying that a supernatural being caused the BB, there's no evidence against that. If you are sayiing that because a supernatural being caused the BB and therefore the universe behaves in a certain way, there's no evidence against that. However there is no evidence whatsoever that the supernatural being has acted in any way in the universe since then. There isn't even any evidence that the supernatural being still exists. No it hasn't! What you might be referring to was using radiation to force mutated wings that had no muscles, tendons or function is a miniature Hiroshima effect, and the flies died. They were not new species, they were the same species with extra useless extremities. That's mutilation, not evolution. Nope, genetic changes that are passed onto offspring have been observed. (You don't seem to be up on current genetics - it isn't simply a matter of bombarding things with radiation and see if they change - individual genes can be manipulated.) I'm not sure if the inability to interbreed with the non-changed members of the population has been observed, but the mechanism by which the inability to interbreed arises has been found. Hahahaha, that is EXACTLY the language Newton used to discover gravity!!!! He didn't say "Oh, the apple just drops" he said "WHY is this apple dropping? What is driving it? There needs to be a deliberate force." Maybe English isn't your first language, in which case you don't realize that the word "deliberate" means that there is intention, which in turn means that there is consciousness. Newton did not say that there was a "deliberate" force, he said there was a force. If English is you first language you need to seriously consider how you misuse it. You've tried Argument from Authority - fail Now you're trying ad hominen - fail. Wrong. Earth has always had iron - most of the centre of the earth is iron. The video's point is that all the iron on the surface of the earth arrived there via meterors. (Which is not strictly true, as some iron got to the surface from the centre of the earth.) The video claims that no-one in 7th century Arabia could have known that meterorites are sometimes composed of iron, and thus the Koran mentioning it is miraculous. You don't have to think very hard to see that that is not so. Humans mined and worked iron for thousands of years before the 7th century, and humans have been interested in meteorites for longer. Some peoples collected meteorites (and what is the Black Stone if it isn't a meterorite?). It is not surprising, much less miraculous, that someone in 7th-century Aabia had heard that there were iron meteorites. If "everyone" thought the earth was flat, they had forgotten what the Greeks had determined not very long before. The Greeks even calculated a pretty good diamter of the earth. You are on a false trail assuming that humans knew little about iron and could not know it when they saw it. Humans were very good at extracting and working iron. Metallurgy weas one of the earlier skills to be learned. As I said, it is not the case that all of the Earth's iron came from metorites - the Earth's core is mostly iron. You are misrepresenting me. I am not trying to take anything away from the Koran, I am complaining about people (through stupidity or dishonesty) making false claims about the Koran. I've given you an example of a claim made about miraculous knowledge in the Koran and demonstrated that this claim is false. I'm happy to do the same for the "hundreds" of other claims if you bring them up one by one - a new thread for each would be appropriate. (Although I cannot let pass the "mountains are anchors" thing - that's simply ludicrously untrue! Maybe we also need to talk about the claims of scientific 'facts' in the Koran which are not scientific facts.) For a brief introduction to debunking these false claims, go back to the Islam & Science forum and look at the 'Some Scientific Truths of the Koran' thread.
  5. Music Industry? Pardon Me Its Actually The Demon Industry

    I too am trying to help, by suggesting alternatives. And surely you aren't saying that Muslims only listen to mass-market junk music.
  6. Obama

    A three-second google got me a list of reserve banks worldwide. Are you seriously saying that the Saudi Arabian Monetary Agency, Bank Indonesia and the Central Bank of Yemen are all part of Teh Zionist Conspiracy? Afghanistan - Da Afghanistan Bank - Central Bank of Afghanistan Albania - Banka e Shqipërisë - Bank of Albania Algeria - Banque d'Algérie Angola - Banco Nacional de Angola Anguilla - Eastern Caribbean Central Bank Antigua & Barbuda - Eastern Caribbean Central Bank Argentina - Banco Central de la Republica Argentina Armenia - Central Bank of Armenia Aruba - Central Bank of Aruba Australia - Reserve Bank of Australia Austria - Österreichische Nationalbank Azerbaijan - National Bank of Azerbaijan Bahamas - The Central Bank of The Bahamas Bahrain - Bahrain Monetary Agency Bangladesh - Bangladesh Bank (Central Bank of Bangladesh) Barbados - Central Bank of Barbados Belarus - National Bank of the Republic of Belarus Belgium - Banque Nationale de Belgique Belize - Central Bank of Belize Benin - Banque Centrale des Etats de l'Afrique de l'Ouest Bermuda - Bermuda Monetary Authority Bhutan - Royal Monetary Authority of Bhutan Bolivia - Banco Central de Bolivia Bosnia & Herzegovina - Central Bank of Bosnia & Herzegovina Botswana - Bank of Botswana Brazil - Banco Central do Brasil Bulgaria - Bulgarian National Bank Burkina Faso - Banque Centrale des Etats de l'Afrique de l'Ouest Cambodia - National Bank of Cambodia Cameroun - Banque des Etats de l'Afrique Centrale Canada - Bank of Canada Cape Verde - Banco de Cabo Verde Central African Republic - Banque des Etats de l'Afrique Centrale Chad - Banque des Etats de l'Afrique Centrale Chile - Banco Central de Chile China - People's Bank of China Colombia - Banco de la Republica Comoros - Banque Centrale des Comores Congo Democratic Republic - Banque Centrale du Congo Congo Republic - Banque des Etats de l'Afrique Centrale Costa Rica - Banco Central de Costa Rica Croatia - Croatian National Bank Cyprus - Central Bank of Cyprus Czech Republic - Ceska Narodni Banka Denmark - Danmarks Nationalbank Djibouti - Banque Centrale de Djibouti Dominica - Eastern Caribbean Central Bank Dominican Republic - Banco Central de la Republica Dominicana East Caribbean States - Eastern Caribbean Central Bank Ecuador - Banco Central del Ecuador Egypt - Central Bank of Egypt El Salvador - Banco Central de Reserva de El Salvador Equatorial Guinea - Banque des Etats de l'Afrique Centrale Estonia - Eesti Pank Ethiopia - National Bank of Ethiopia European Union - European Central Bank Faeroe Islands - Landsbanki Føroya Fiji - Reserve Bank of Fiji Finland - Suomen Pankki France - Banque de France Gabon - Banque des Etats de l'Afrique Centrale Gambia - Central Bank of The Gambia Georgia - National Bank of Georgia Germany - Deutsche Bundesbank Ghana - Bank of Ghana Greece - Bank of Greece Grenada - Eastern Caribbean Central Bank Guatemala - Banco de Guatemala Guinea - Banque Centrale de la République de Guinée Guinea-Bissau - Banque Centrale des Etats de l'Afrique de l'Ouest Guyana - Bank of Guyana Haiti - Banque de la République d'Haïti - Central Bank of Haiti Honduras - Banco Central de Honduras Hong Kong - Hong Kong Monetary Authority Hungary - Magyar Nemzeti Bank Iceland - Central Bank of Iceland India - Reserve Bank of India Indonesia - Bank Indonesia Iran - Bank Markazi Iran Iraq - Central Bank of Iraq Ireland - Banc Ceannais na Heireann - Central Bank of Ireland israel - Bank of israel Italy - Banca d'Italia Ivory Coast - Banque Centrale des Etats de l'Afrique de l'Ouest Jamaica - Bank of Jamaica Japan - Nippon Ginko Jordan - Central Bank of Jordan Kazakhstan - Kazakstan Ulttyk Banki Kenya - Banki Kuu Ya Kenya - Central Bank of Kenya Korea - The Bank of Korea Kuwait - Central Bank of Kuwait Kyrgyzstan - National Bank of the Kyrgyz Republic Laos - Bank of the Lao P.D.R. Latvia - Latvijas Banka Lebanon - Banque du Liban - Central Bank of Lebanon Lesotho - Central Bank of Lesotho Libya - Central Bank of Libya Lithuania - Lietuvos Bankas Luxembourg - IML - Banque Centrale du Luxembourg Macao - Monetary Authority of Macau Macedonia - Narodna Banka na Republika Makedonija Madagascar - Banque Centrale de Madagascar - Banky Foiben'i Madagasikara Malawi - Reserve Bank of Malawi Malaysia - Bank Negara Malaysia - Central Bank of Malaysia Maldives - Maldives Monetary Authority Mali - Banque Centrale des Etats de l'Afrique de l'Ouest Malta - Bank Centrali ta' Malta Mauritania - Banque Centrale de Mauritanie Mauritius - Bank of Mauritius Mexico - Banco de Mexico Moldova - Banca Nationala a Moldovei Mongolia - Mongol Bank - Central Bank of Mongolia Montserrat - Eastern Caribbean Central Bank Morocco - Bank Al-Maghrib Mozambique - Banco de Moçambique Namibia - Bank of Namibia Nepal - Nepal Rastra Bank - Nepal Central Bank Netherlands - De Nederlandsche Bank Netherlands Antilles - Bank van de Nederlandse Antillen New Zealand - Reserve Bank of New Zealand Nicaragua - Banco Central de Nicaragua Niger - Banque Centrale des Etats de l'Afrique de l'Ouest Nigeria - Central Bank of Nigeria Norway - Norges Bank Oman - Central Bank of Oman Pakistan - State Bank of Pakistan Palestine - Palestine Monetary Authority Papua New Guinea - Bank of Papua New Guinea Paraguay - Banco Central del Paraguay Peru - Banco Central de Reserva del Peru Philippines - Bangko Sentral Ng Pilipinas Poland - Narodowy Bank Polski Portugal - Banco de Portugal Qatar - Qatar Central Bank Romania - National Bank of Romania Russian Federation - Bank Rossiyi - Bank of Russia Rwanda - Banque Nationale du Rwanda Saint Kitts & Nevis - Eastern Caribbean Central Bank Saint Lucia - Eastern Caribbean Central Bank Saint Thomas & Prince - Banco Central de São Tomé e Príncipe Saint Vincent and the Grenadines - Eastern Caribbean Central Bank Samoa - Central Bank of Samoa San Marino - Istituto di Credito Sammarinese Saudi Arabia - Saudi Arabian Monetary Agency Senegal - Banque Centrale des Etats de l'Afrique de l'Ouest Serbia - National Bank of Serbia - Narodna Banka Srbije Sierra Leone - Bank of Sierra Leone Singapore - Monetary Authority of Singapore Slovakia - Narodna Banka Slovenska Slovenia - Banka Slovenije Solomon Islands - Central Bank of Solomon Islands Somaliland - Baanka Somaliland South Africa - South African Reserve Bank Spain - Banco de España Sri Lanka - Central Bank of Sri Lanka Sudan - Bank of Sudan Surinam - Centrale Bank van Suriname Swaziland - Central Bank of Swaziland Sweden - Sveriges Riksbank Switzerland - Schweizerische Nationalbank Syria - Central Bank of Syria Taiwan - Central Bank of China Tajikistan - National Bank of Tajikistan Tanzania - Benki Kuu Ya Tanzania - Bank of Tanzania Thailand - Bank of Thailand Togo - Banque Centrale des Etats de l'Afrique de l'Ouest Tonga - National Reserve Bank of Tonga Transnistria - Trans-Dniester Republican Bank Trinidad & Tobago - Central Bank of Trinidad & Tobago Tunisia - Banque Centrale de Tunisie Turkey - Türkiye Cumhuriyet Merkez Bankasi Uganda - Bank of Uganda Ukraine - National Bank of Ukraine United Arab Emirates - Central Bank of the United Arab Emirates United Kingdom - Bank of England United States - The Federal Reserve Board Uruguay - Banco Central del Uruguay Uzbekistan - Central Bank of Uzbekistan Vanuatu - Reserve Bank of Vanuatu Venezuela - Banco Central de Venezuela Viet-Nam - State Bank of Viet-Nam Yemen - Central Bank of Yemen Zambia - Bank of Zambia Zimbabwe - Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe
  7. Obama

    You dpn't know the first thing about the Federal Reserve System. If you did, you'd realize that most countries in the world have a Reserve Bank, many of them of much longer standing than the US Federal Reserve System. The US Federal Reserve's charter and operations aren't very different from the others. You might disagree with some of the policies of reserve banks, but surely you aren't saying that every Reserve Bank in the world is part of the Evul Zionist Konspiracy! Of you are saying that, why aren't you complaining about the Bank of England (the UK's reserve bank)? I'd be a lot more impressed if he was an economist. Do you know who "owns the Fed"? A quick google would tell you that the Federal Reserve System is made up of 12 different banks (and also associate banks), overseen by a board which is appointed by the President and ratified by the Senate. It is answerable to the President and the Senate. Its charter requires that it conforms to the economic policies of the government of the day. Just where exactly is the nefarious activity in this? I've never seen anyone but loopy right-wing Americans (and those who get their information from loopy right-wing Americans) claim that the Women's Liberation Movement is a Zionist Plot.
  8. Music Industry? Pardon Me Its Actually The Demon Industry

    I don't think anyone denies that mainstream popular music is commercially-driven junk. (It's often fun junk, though.) However if you don't want to listen to it there are plenty of alternatives. Go to a local venue and listen to a young band. Listen to an 'alternative' radio station. Get into the career of a great artist (there are still Bob Dylan albums I've never heard - that's a treat I am saving up). Serious and intelligent artists are few and far between, but they do exist. Or, of course, you could discover that you prefer a different type of music - try some.
  9. Obama

    Then why is he concerned about the US Federal Reserve Board and womens' liberation in America? And he uses exactly the same language and arguments as used by US white supremacists. You are following someone who is not only racist and misogynist, but a plagiarist.
  10. Obama

    As I said before, it amazes me that Muslims get their information from the racist (and misogynist) dregs of American society.
  11. Obama

    *gobsmacked* Are you saying that the only posiible explanation for poor economic performance is Teh Zionist Konspiracy?
  12. Obama

    The Federal Reserve System (which is made up of 12 privately-owned banks - that is, shareholder-owned - controlled by the Federal Reserve Board, the members of which are appointed by and are answerable to Congress) is not "a private company". Before you repeat falshoods from anti-semitic sites you should try to do a bit of research for yourself. I really don't understsand why so many Muslims are happy to take at face-value information from people who believe that non-whites are inferior.
  13. If it is "obvious" it must be "obvious" for logical reasons. It must be "obvious" because experiments can be made showing it to be the case. you yourself have suggested an experiment: if there is a board it will probably fire someone who doesn't accept the employee handbook. That can be tested experimentally. If that resistence is able to be passed to offspring (which it is in the case of the bacteria; which it isn't in the case of the child and the bee toxin) it shows that a genetic change has taken place and that a new species has evolved. Plenty of things live at volcanic vents at extremely high temperature and in an extremely sulphur-rich atmosphere. There are lots of micro-ecolological niches on earth which are nothing like the general conditions. However, you now seem to be talking about the first emergence of life. Evolution says nothing about that - it's a separate discussion. Yes, chance. You'd do much better to stop presenting a false caricature of evolution and argue against what evolution actually says. No, evolution has been observed in the laboratory; that is, new species of insects have appeared. New species of flu virus appear regularly. I am getting tired of saying this: As we do not and perhaps logically cannot know what happened prior to the BB, it's just as feasible to postulate that a supernatural being caused it as anything else. However everything that has happened since a few micro-seconds after the BB is explainable without the need for a supernatural being. We keep pushing back those microseconds, and hopefully CERN will allow us to push back a few more. Please at least try to use objective language. There's no reason whatsover to use words like "deliberately" any more than you would say than an egg "deliberately" falls if you drop it. Who said it was basic knowledge? For a good example of a dishonest claim about the Koran, go to the 'Islam & Science' section and scroll down to the post 'Misleading videos'.
  14. Actually, I don't agree that someONE created us. The immediate process that caused our species to be as it is, is evolution. My point in the previous post is that you could possibly think that a supernatural being set the Big Bang in motion, and from that you might - at a stretch - say that the supernatural being was responsible for everything as it is. I don't argue that there is no god, I argue that there is no evidence for a god, nor any need to include a supernatural explanation for anything that has happened since the Big Bang. The problem with that analogy is that it would be simple to prove (in the scientific sense of the word) that there either was or there wasn't a board. I'm entirely open to proofs of the existence of supernatural beings - i just haven't seen any that work. Erm, how do you mean? Yes, the world (and everything else) wouldn't have existed if the Big Bang didn't happen. but I don't see that that says anything for (or against) the exsitence of supernatural beings. That is not true. Unless you already believe in a supernatural creator, you do not see the universe as "built". So you are attempting to prove the existence of a supernatural being with an argument that relies on assuming a supernatural being. That is literally illogical. Secondly, nothing that has happened in the universe since a few micro-seconds after the Big Bang needs to be explained by anything but fairly simple physics and chemistry. It isn't "meticulous", it's just what happens in a certain set of circumstances. Well, this is the crux. If that was the case it would be proof of a supernatural being (or intervention by aliens). However I have not seen anything in the Koran which could not have been available to humans at the time. If you have any, let's see it. I have, however seen a lot of misleading claims and frankly dishonest attempts to misrepresent the Koran and science. Wot? I didn't say it would take bateria billions of years to adjust to temperature, I said that the trilobyte was not the first multi-cellular organsim, as had been claimed. Evolution of simple organisms occurs much faster than thet - new species of simple insects can (and have) evolved in laboratories in a few years. No idea, but I can tell you about the useful mutations that happen to animals with much shorter life-spans (thus making it much more easily observable). For example, species of bacteria have evolved to be no longer susceptible to certain pathogens such as penicillin. WHICH "whole period"? You mean since life has been on earth? Sorry, but that's completely wrong. There was much less oxygen and much more CO2 in the atmosphere until plants evolved. Mammals could not have survived in that atmosphere. And without abundant oxygen you don't have an ozone layer, which means much higher levels of cosmic radiation (useful for mutating things) reaching the earth's surface.
  15. So are you saying that "created us" means "created the universe" (which preceded "us" by billions of years) and because we are a product of the universe, whatever caused the universe can also be said to have caused "us"? I agree that there is no evidence about who or what caused the Big Bang (which was the beginning of the universe), so you could just as well argue that a god caused it as anything else. And I agree that there is no necessity (or evidence, for that matter) for a supernatural being having any involvement with the universe since then. i agree. On a side-note, there was a hypothesis that life (ie single-cell organisms) arrived on earth via meterorites or comets, but I think (I'm not up on this) that it has been proven to be extremely unlikely. The current consensus is that life arose from chemical/physical reactions on earth.
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