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iceHorse

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Everything posted by iceHorse

  1. Do You Back Western Intervention In Syria

    Are regional leaders doing any meaningful peacekeeping?
  2. Do You Back Western Intervention In Syria

    Can you describe what you think the rest of the world should do, if anything? (wow, this thread came back from the dead :) )
  3. Hi Guys, Glad to be back, hope you're all well. While I was gone I read an English version of the Quran. Then I did spot checking comparisons with a different translation to verify that I had read a reasonable translation. In the spot checking I did, I found the two translations to be very similar, so I hope I have a decent exposure to this scripture. If I was to use *only* the Quran as my guide to understanding Islam, I would have to conclude that I disagree with many of the basic values of Islam. Again, this is if I use *only* the Quran as my guide. So how would you recommend that I achieve a better understanding of Islamic values? What else can I study? Or would you say instead, that reading the Quran *is* the best way to understand Islamic values?
  4. As I study the Quran I find many places in which it explains itself and defends itself against any attacks that might happen. Here is how I understand these verses: == The Qualities of the Quran 4:82 - The Quran has no contradictions within itself 10:15 - The Quran is clear and not changeable 15:9 and 41:41 - The Quran cannot be corrupted 26:195 - The Quran is written in plain (Arabic) language 39:23 - The Quran repeats some parts many times 43:2 and 43:3 - The Quran is clear and understandable 69:51 - The Quran is true and certain 86:13 - The Quran contains the strict laws (of Islam) == About Muhammad and the Quran 6:105 - The Quran is not a plagiarism 12:111 - The Quran is not a forgery 25:4 - The Quran is not a lie, it is not invented by Muhammad 81:22 - Muhammad is not a madman Do you think I have understood these passages correctly?
  5. The Quran Explains The Quran

    In verses 4:82, 10:15, 26:195, 43:2, 43:3 the Quran declares itself to be clear and understandable, and in 86:13 it declares that it holds the strict laws.
  6. The Quran Explains The Quran

    Younes, I think I have a good idea from you, thanks. dot, Happy New Year! I'm not trying to argue, but sometimes the best way to learn is to discuss the edges and the difficult concepts.
  7. Several months ago I asked about Islamic values. At that time I left the question open-ended. Since then I have found a short list of values that I think sum up the things I care about: - Honor - Freedom - Arts - Knowledge - Friendship - Logic - Compassion Do you agree with this list? If not, how would you change it?
  8. Islamic Values, Take 2

    Since making this post, I've had some further discussions, and I think I might be able to be more specific. First, I was directed to this quote from Hassan al Banna. (I hope he is not a controversial figure, I just liked the quote): From my Western perspective I have to say I like this definition. Now it does leave some important details out. Below are four "values" that most people in the West view as essential: - freedom of speech (this includes the right to criticize any religion) - equality for all people (this includes women, gays, and Jews) - secular government (this means no Sharia) - freedom of religion (this means apostasy is not a crime) Whether you consider yourself "moderate" or not, I'm curious to know your stance on these four values. Of course it could well be that you agree with some but not all!
  9. The Quran Explains The Quran

    I tend to agree with QEDs logic. But either way, I would hope that we can say that the Quran can never be wrong. In other words, if some Imams say that the Hadith provides *extra details* not provided by the Quran, that could be okay. But shouldn't we be suspicious if any of the Hadith disagrees with the Quran?
  10. Best Hadith Says Koran Is Corrupted

    Well now I'm getting confused. In a separate thread I proposed that the Quran is: true, clear, understandable and complete. No one disagreed with that proposal!
  11. The Quran Explains The Quran

    After six days, no one has disagreed with these conclusions. So, if we can say that the Quran is true, clear, understandable, and complete, then why are the Hadith needed at all? It would almost seem that the Hadith were created by people who didn't agree that the Quran is true, clear, understandable and complete?
  12. Again, a discussion aimed at improving mutual understanding and peace... We all know that in the West, Islam is often associated with terrorism. We know many Muslims in the West feel that they are the targets of "Islamophobia". In short, we know that a lot of tension exists. We often hear it said that most Muslims in the world are "moderate". But what does that mean? A common way to learn about large groups is through polling, this is a common practice, and everyone falls into some categories. Let me propose a few categories. They might not be good categories, we can add and subtract, but it might be interesting to see how people on this forum feel about these categories. I'll propose starting with "easy" ways to be moderate, and then harder and harder ways: Easy: Anyone who would never commit terrorism. Not as easy: Anyone who disagrees with terrorism. Harder: Anyone who will publicly speak out against terrorism. Really Hard: Anyone who publicly debates with terrorists. In your experience, what percentage of Muslims do you think would fall into these categories? We could do a similar poll concerning the introduction of Sharia into Western countries: Easy: Anyone who would never actively participate in spreading Sharia. Not as easy: Anyone who disagrees with spreading Sharia Harder: Anyone who will speak out against spreading Sharia Really Hard: Anyone who will publicly debate people who are trying to spread Sharia. What percentage of Muslims living in the West do you think would fall into these categories?
  13. Can We Define "moderate Muslim" ?

    I'm here to learn, not argue. On this point we will have to agree to disagree. :)
  14. Can We Define "moderate Muslim" ?

    Here are several places where the topic of fighting and dying for Allah is discussed: 3:140 3:143 3:157 3:158 3:169 - 3:172 4:69 4:74 4:75 4:77 9:20 9:29 9:38 - 9:43 9:86 33:16 33:23 47:2 - 47:4 47:20 56:10
  15. Can We Define "moderate Muslim" ?

    andalusi - I didn't know that. thanks! but in the Quran translation that I read, that's not the kind of martyrdom that the Quran is mostly talking about. it might be that the sort of situation you described is discussed a few times, but for the most part, martyrdom is discussed in the context of fighting non-believers. Correct?
  16. What Is Islamophobia To You?

    To look at it from a strictly academic perspective, we could say that: "Islam" is a collection of ideas, and "phobia" is an irrational fear of something. So technically, we could define Islamophobia as: "An irrational fear of the collection of ideas known as 'Islam' ". Now, whenever I see this term used in practice, it's not meant this way. It's usually meant as a short-hand for "bigotry against Muslims". I think it's a bad term that does more harm than good. Of course I know that sometimes there is "bigotry against Muslims". In a similar way, a lot of people don't like Jews, and we have a word for that, "anti-semitism". But anti-semitism refers to the people, not the ideas of Judiasm. The reason I say that the word does harm, is because of organizations like CAIR in the U.S. If someone in the U.S. burns a Quran, CAIR shouts: "Islamophobia!". But in the U.S., we are free to criticize every religion. If we want to, we can burn Qurans or Bibles or Torahs or the Bhagavad Gita, or whatever. And in the U.S. (and in other places in the West), people DO protest against religion; every religion. Not everybody likes the ideas in the Bible. not everybody likes the ideas in the Quran. Muslims think Christians are going to hell, and Christians think Muslims are going to hell, and some people (like me), think nobody is going to hell. So when CAIR cries "Islamophobia!" most people just think: "There go those CAIR jerks spouting off again". This doesn't help anyone.
  17. Thanks Younes, So reviewing, and it also sounds like the idea of classifying or rating (e.g. weak, sound, good...) ? Is it largely true that a relatively small percentage is considered to be "the best"? For example, if you understand this 10%, you really will have a good sense of the Hadith in general? If so, can anyone point me to that, most useful portion?
  18. Have you ever seen statistics about what percentage of Muslims in the world ever read the entire Quran? I have a feeling that the fact that I've read an entire translation of the Quran and that I've read a small bit of the Hadith makes me as studious as many Muslims? (I also read parts of two other translations, just to be sure that the one I read seemed accurate - which it did.)
  19. Paradise, You are correct, I was being imprecise and casual with my last post, I felt Younes was looking for a quick summary.
  20. My understanding is that the Hadith have gone through many stages of being collected by scholars. Then the scholars decide which ones are valid and discard some. Then another generation of scholars came along and did more editing and rearranging and so on. The basic idea is that at this point the Hadith that remain have been influenced by Islamic scholars. Very different than the Quran. Is this understanding correct?
  21. Thanks for that Younes, So, if I understand correctly, you're now mostly talking about the Hadith? Is that correct? If so, isn't it the case that the Hadith have been compiled and recompiled and edited and re-edited by many, many scholars for hundreds of years?
  22. fathi - From my perspective you and I are having a discussion, and we're using our minds and thinking - which is what the Quran tells us we should do. That doesn't mean we will always agree. I understood what you said. And I agree that sometimes the same word will have different meanings depending on the situation or the context. I also agree that the spoken word can have power that it doesn't have when it's written. Now I'm asking you to think a little more deeply, a little more philosophically. For this discussion, I'm using the Quran as the ultimate authority. For this discussion I'm only saying to you what I read in the Quran. When you say I need to have context, my response is that the Quran tells me I don't. The Quran proclaims itself to be eternal and clearly understandable. That means that people 10,000 years from will be able to understand it. They will not need to know about Muhammad living in the desert in order to understand the Quran. Is there anything I just said that goes against what's in the Quran?
  23. If I take the Quran at face value, I should it trust it when it tells me that it is eternal, not corruptible, clear, and easy to understand. I should trust the Quran more than some scholar or Imam who tells me that I can't understand it without his help.
  24. Can We Define "moderate Muslim" ?

    fathi - I think you are a good person. I think you are not fully honoring the Quran when you say these things. The idea of martyrdom is promoted repeatedly in the Quran. It seems you are deciding which parts of the Quran to follow and which parts to ignore. I am trying to understand its entire message, not just the politically correct bits. Again, I AM NOT SUPPORTING AL QAEDA in any way, but I think they have said over and over again that when they do a suicide attack, they are defending Islam from aggressors. This is what the Quran instructs them to do. Now, you and I agree that they've lost their way, but the problem is that their defense is plausible!
  25. This is an interesting perspective (I have heard it before, btw). Let me ask you this... how do you know what you just said?
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