Tunisia

well, actually they did. God, His Spirit and His word are prevalent throughout the Old Testament. The Christian view of a triune God is not "three" gods. By comparing it with polytheism you are making the wrong assumption that there are three seperate deities. There's only ONE. Your mistake. Don't see what your problem is. The Qur'an has verses along the same lines. Do you think God has to excuse to mankind His righteous wrath? There is a purpose to everything God does (at least there is in the Bible), who are you to question God? If you took the time to read in context the verse you quoted you may understand to some extent the reasons God commanded such. But hey, but maybe that wouldn't suit your agenda. :D So don't say any more for fear of embarrassing yourself further.

Yes He was most definitely crucified. All evidence points to that fact.

Bit in bold, you may have a point. Christians worship YHWH the ONE true God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I don't know what God you believe you worship but I am starting to see that maybe it's not the God of Abraham. Btw, YHWH is not a mass-murderer. What a shameful thing to say. I pray God will forgive you.

This is something you take on faith. To use the Qur'an to prove itself in this way is circular reasoning. You have chosen Islam as your religion, or was born into it either way it's your path. I can understand why you believe you've chosen the right path. I beg to differ, God chose my path to follow the Way. So to you your religion to me mine. God bless.

You put it more consisely than I. I do tend to go on. :) I seemed to have got carried away with this section of the forum. I guess it's just when one has Jesus, It's too beautiful not to share. Peace to you.

Only thing I will say in response to your post dear is, God has NO partners or associates. What's worse? Little or no hope of salvation and the risk of eternal separation from our loving God.

Your proof is? Also, how does the fact every word is the same as it was 1400 years ago prove those words were truth from God? Let's recap for a second. Is it about religion or is it about God? No where in the Bible does God speak of "religion" God commands obedience, love and worship of Him alone. He does not say we have to follow a religion, but to have relationship with God we must have faith in Him alone. All the prophets taught this. From the beginning God decreed that mankind would pay a penalty for sin against Him. Throughout the Old Testament blood sacrifices were offered as atonement for sin, both individually and collectively. The animal sacrifices offered could never pay the once and for all penalty that was required. Only God Himself could provide the perfect sacrifice, in Jesus. Whatever you think the Bible teaches Jesus did die by crucifixion as a sacrifice for the sins of mankind. Matthew 20:17-19 - Jesus predicted He would be crucified, then rise again. Matthew 26:28 - He claimed that He would shed His blood for the remission of man's sins. [20:28] John 19:31-35 - John claimed to be an eyewitness to Jesus' crucifixion. [Acts 2:23] Ephesians 1:7 - Redemption and forgiveness are through His blood. 1 Peter 2:24 - He bore our sins in His body on the tree. Hebrews 2:9 - He tasted of death for every man. If Islam denies these statements from Jesus and the Bible, how can it yet claim to believe the Bible is from God and Jesus was a true teacher? Is it enough to say without proof "ah, but your Bible was corrupted and those aren't the real words of Jesus" - "jesus' real teaching were in the Injil which is lost without trace". That leaves you to believe that a prophet of such importance as Jesus (and like it or not whatever you say the Qur'an does indeed lead one to believe that Jesus was a prophet of greater importance of any other) that Jesus would be so careless with the revelation entrusted to him that it would disappear without trace and be replaced within the lifetime of his disciples with a totally different message. The very idea is incredulous, but it's what you are basically asking me to believe of Jesus if I am to see truth in Islam. The Bible teaches that Jesus was raised from the dead, as proved by the testimony of eyewitnesses. Matthew 20:17-19 - Jesus predicted He would be crucified and then rise again. [Matt. 16:21] Luke 24:44-46 - Jesus taught that His death and resurrection was a fulfillment of prophecy. Romans 1:4 - Jesus is declared to be the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead. 1 Corinthians 15:3-8 - He died for our sins, was buried, and arose as prophesied and as testified by eyewitnesses who saw Him alive. The resurrection of Jesus is absolutely fundamental to the claims of Jesus and the gospel. The disciples repeatedly affirmed it to be true on the basis of eyewitness testimony. Whereas you have no proof at all for your alternative view. Yet we should take it on faith! The Bible teaches that salvation can be obtained only through Jesus. John 14:6 - Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." Acts 4:12 - "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." So we have Jesus a prophet which both the Bible and Qur'an confirm was without sin, then I feel it reasonable to assume that He spoke truth when He said we can only be saved through Him, no other way. Islam denies salvation through Jesus. Therefore, Islam cannot save and you have no way to be saved. The Old Testament had animal sacrifices. The New Testament has the superior, perfect sacrifice of Jesus. But, Islam has no sacrifice for sin at all. You have a hope, but no surety. Without a sacrifice for sin, there can be no remission. It follows that Islam not only is not a superior system, but it cannot save at all. Jesus fulfilled the law, He was the culmination of the law. Islam goes back in time, placing your trust in the law to save you. Much like the Jews and Pharisees of the Old Testament the ones Jesus castigated for placing more importance on the law than they did faith in God. I never feel a backward step is as good as a step forward. That's the whole point of Gods progressive revelation in the Bible, we move forward in enlightenment always striving for a relationship with God. How can you possibly claim that the system of law found within Islam is better or improvement on what went before. Given the fact it does not work any better than any secular law of the land. Do you also think Christians are somehow without law? ( pexcepting the law of the land obviously). God's law is made up of various components, the Ten Commandments cover every aspect of what we need to adhere for life. What laws does Islam offer that did not already exist? That's the truth of it, as I see it. Nothing funny about it at all.

If God chooses not to protect ALL His word then there is no point giving revelation to mankind. The Bible says Gods words cannot be changed, Jesus said His word will last forever. So, that's a gaurantee as good as any you believe you have. Besides I'm not a disbeliever I worship God alone in Truth, love and sincerity. God knows that. Isa in the Qur'an is not the same as the Biblical Jesus. I don't doubt at all that you believe you love the same Jesus, that's because you don't know the real one. Jesus will return to usher in the Kingdom of God on Earth at the end times He will judge both the living and the dead. HE will know His own. You have absolutly no idea what He will or will not tolerate, that is your opinion based on your belief. Which obviously differs from my own. I know which end times scenario I find more logical. Exactly. No one could take his life because He GAVE His life voluntarily. This is what Jesus said - note he said I have the authority.. Not God gave me the authority. The command He received from the Father. It was Gods will that Jesus give His life. It was Gods plan from the beginning. "No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have the authority to lay it down and the authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father." John 10:18 That is a shocking and insulting comment to make! There is only ONE God, YHWH the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. One God consisting of His Word (Jesus) and His Holy Spirit. These are NOT three seperate gods, if you believe they are you are talking blasphemy. God created the world, the universe and everything in it through His word - Jesus - His Spirit gave breath to creation. God is Holy and divine so how can His word and Spirit not be considered Holy and Divine? God is praised in the Bible as being Holy, Holy, Holy.. Holy is GOD. Look I accept you don't believe, you don't understand if you did you wouldn't have said Christians have a few gods. I realise it's hard to accept something you don't understand even harder if you've been told to believe an inaccurate misrepresentation of it. But, really there's no call to mock those (Christians) who do understand it and for who it makes perfect logical sense. As I see it if God did not possess plurality within His divine nature, there would be no need for creation at all. It all stem from love.

What's this? Some kind of sick joke!

Apology accepted. With the utmost respect dot, what you say here is incorrect. You have no proof that the words attributed to God or Jesus in the Bible is a fabricated lie. Just as you cannot prove that the Qur'an is the only authentic words of God either. You can only take that on faith. As for our books (I assume you mean the Gospels) being authored 400 years after Jesus is nonsense. There is manuscript evidence to back that up. This guarantee idea, and that only the Qur'an has it, is quite frankly ludicrous. What reason would God send over 2000years of progressive revelation through over 40 prophets - men and women from all walks of life and backgrounds as recorded in the Bible. Only to allow it to be corrupted by His humble puny creation - man! If God can't or won't protect all His word then what's the point of any revelation at all. Oh.. And God did promise to protect His message in the Bible.. So I guess it's down to which message you believe is from God. you sure about that? Jesus may have never said the words "I am God" but then again He never said the words "I am just a prophet" either. Yet we know He was a true prophet, a prophet unlike any other Prophet. There are a great many ways to put your point across other than direct speech. In fact direct speech would have done Jesus no favours at all if He had said "I am God worship me". Actions however speak louder than words. There is nothing similar in the creation of Adam and Jesus. Adam as first man was created from dust, a full grown man. Jesus was born of a virgin, and there's a reason why that had to be, you accept He was born of a virgin seeing it's in the Qur'an but you have no idea why it was necessary for Jesus to be born this way. The Qur'an doesn't tell you, a crucial piece of information and God doesn't want you to know. Because you don't know this information you can't accept the crucifixion because you have no understanding of why God willed it. Because God didn't want you to know? However, if the Bible is correct about sin, the virgin birth, the atoning crucifying death of Jesus and we being offered salvation because of it. Then what? Did God not wish you to be saved??? I share the hope that you too will one day find the truth, and the truth shall set you free. I don't think it can be found in a book though. Peace to you dot. I sincerely wish you well. I may not agree with you on a good many points but I believe your heart is in the right place.

I really don't think you're in any position to pass judgement on me for my beliefs or be dishing out warnings. As I said already only God can do that. Just something for you to think on. Jesus' teachings are found in the Injil / gospels, Jesus said He is the Way, the Truth and the Life - NO ONE goes to the Father (God) except by Him. What if He was telling the truth here? Where does that leave you? How's this for a hypothetical scenario if Jesus is the Way, and if it's Satans goal to deceive souls away from God, if you deny Jesus is the Way and follow another path want then? What if you're the one being deceived and not I? I find that quite scary. Personally I wouldn't want to be persuading people away from the path God has placed them on. Jesus says He's the only way you say Islam is the only way. Its a choice we all make based on what we know, what we feel and what we believe. Repentance is the same requirement in all Abrahamic religions. I'm not talking of repentance I'm talking of the penalty we must pay for our sin to a Holy God. You are right no one has the right to question God's decisions. We see God making judgements and decisions throughout the Bible scripture that we as creations may not understand the full implications.. The fault is with us. That's why we have faith in God because we know God is consistant. He died that we may live. Just because you don't understand the full implications or see the sense in it doesn't mean it's not truth.. The fault is with you. It possibly seems an injustice to you because you can only see it in small human terms. You see the man only, you don't see the power within the man. Jesus said He came to GIVE His life for many (us), NO ONE could take His life, it was His to give and His to take back. Jesus lives, He rose on the third day so conquering death, that we won't suffer the eternal death. Yes, He will return, in judgement to usher in the Kingdom of God, as I said already He will know His own. I'm cool with that. I wish you knew Jesus because only knowing Him can you understand Him. I know you have Isa but really, I'm sorry it's not the same Biblical Jesus. So to you your way to me mine. Go in peace.

Wow. Way harsh dot. Don't waste your pity, save it for those who need it. Christians don't. As a Christian I look to the Bible which even the Qur'an agrees contains God's words. man made books! Well someone had to put Gods word down on paper makes sense it would be man. But hey, that's me being a bit facetious, whatever. What a one dimensional view of God you have! maybe it's my turn to pity you, but to be honest I won't. You still don't get it. God is infinite, any sin against God can only be infinite. Only God can remove the infinite penalty of sin, He did this through Jesus. So in your scenario if I killed a person, I'm a sinner. If some kind person comes along and offers to take the death penalty instead of me, then beautiful self sacrificing gesture that it is, if that person was like me a sinner. Their sacrifice is worthless as far as solving my sin problem. Because a finite person does not have the power to forgive my sin even by virtue of self sacrifice. My sin can only be washed away by God. Only God has that power. God does not share His divine power with a finite being. Jesus claimed He had the power to forgive sin. I'll leave you to figure that one out. God called Jesus as Son, Jesus called God as Father, that's good enough for me. If however, you mean God has no sons in the way the Qur'an implies, then I agree 100%. That idea is most definitely blasphemous and is as abhorant to Christians as it is to Muslims. It's not up to you to decide weather or not I go to hell for eternity based on your belief. Not in your remit, God alone decides that and I'm more than happy with that thank you very much. You don't know Jesus so I'm not sure how you can love Him in the way He commands. Jesus was always more than just a prophet even the Qur'an implies that. We can agree Jesus will return, He will return to usher in the Kingdom of God and judge the living and the dead. HE will know His own. I'm good with that. I don't assume you are doing good deeds out of personal pride, maybe you misunderstood what I said. I was explaining the Bibles position on good deeds and the danger of it leading to pride. pride is a subtle thing, and one can be unintentionally prideful. You're human yes? Then I'm guessing you're prone to the same weaknesses as everyone else.. The sin of pride being one of them. If you're not warned of it then it's easier to fall into its wily trap. But maybe in Islam it's a small thing you could class as a mistake or something and not a sin as such. If you noticed in my post I place a ? At the end of the mention of good deeds because I'm not exactly sure how it works. I've read a fair bit on Islam and my Qur'an. Can't say I get the same sense of truth as you yourself do. But who knows.

Not quite sure I get what you mean here. God through Jesus paid the penalty that as a sinner I would have paid by eternity in hell. A separation from God. Without accepting Gods grace by faith as a sinner I stand condemned by the law. Like you will be condemned by the law as a Muslim, as you don't accept Gods gift of a saviour through Jesus. I found this below which explains maybe better than I can. :) 1. God Loves You. God loves you and wants you to know Him so He can fill you with peace and give you real life -- forever. "God loved the people of this world so much that He gave His only son, so that everyone who has faith in Him will have eternal life and never die." Jesus said, "I came so that everyone would have life, and have it in its fullest." Since God planned for us to have peace and life, why are we so far from God? 2. We are Separated from God. Since the beginning of time, we have chosen to disobey God and go our own way. We still make this choice today. This results in separation from God. "All of us have sinned and fallen short of God's holiness." Sin is choosing to say or do or think things that are against God's plan. "The result of unforgiven sin is death. But God's gift is eternal life given by Jesus Christ our Lord." There is only one way to reach God. 3. Jesus Christ Died for our Sins Jesus Christ is God's Son. He is the only One who can bring us back to God. Jesus died on the Cross and rose from the grave. He paid the penalty for our sin and bridged the gap between God and people. "There is only one God, and Christ Jesus is the only One who can bring us to God." "Christ died once for our sins. An innocent person died for those who are guilty. Christ did this to bring you to God." God has provided the only way – we must make the choice. 4. We Must Receive Christ. We must trust Jesus Christ to forgive our sins and receive Him as our Savior and serve Him as our Lord. "As many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believed on His name." Of course God does not punish anyone for the sake of punishment - that would make an unjust God. Yes, I agree God encourages us to do good. However, you surely know that it is impossible for you to be perfectly good all of the time. Believe, well no argument with that, we all need to put our faith and belief in God I believe that's standard across all religions. Do righteous deeds.. I guess this is where you and I may part Dot. The idea that Allah will replace your evil deeds with good (if you have a favourable balance of good deeds already?) I find a strange one. Doing good deeds also carry a risk of one sinning, the sin of pride on the part of the giver. Thus taking the glory upon themselves instead of the glory going to God. The Bible says our good deeds are like a pile of dirty rags and count for nothing lest we should boast. This does not mean we don't do good deeds but we do them out of a love for God not for any hope of our own, like them having any effect on our salvation. What you say about the Islamic forgiveness system being an active and positive one and good for the community, I'm sure is quite true. But that's besides the point Christians are not shy of giving charity, or serving others in the community. If we did not do so then we're not following Christs teachings. You are well off the mark if you think as a Christian you could just sin your way through life, not giving a fig for those around you in need and then just expect by accepting Jesus you get a free pass to heaven! Doesn't work like that, if you accept Jesus into your life, you live your life through Him that is to follow the Way He set. 1. Love God with all your heart, all your soul and all your mind. 2. Love your neighbour as yourself. The first one, to live by this means you don't want to sin, you want instead to be good. You want to obey Gods laws. You want to do the things in your life that you know are pleasing to God. Care for the poor, the sick and those in need. Forgive your enemies and those who persecute you. Abide by the law and basically live a life pleasing to God. When you repent of your sinful ways you are changed from within. The second, love your neighbour is anyone and everyone. If you love your neighbour - mankind. You don't want to hurt them, rob them or see them suffer hardship. You want to help as you would wish them to help you if situations reversed. It's simple really. Actually when you strip it all down to the bare bones the approach to charity, good deeds in our communities are not that different. We each do so out of love of God, difference being you hope for some kind of possible reward in the hereafter, whilst I don't. When God gave us life in Christ that's reward enough. Nothing I can do by my own efforts no matter how good, can ever be enough to repay that love God has already shown me. In conclusion, I find the Bibles approach to sin and forgiveness far superior to what you have Dot. Sorry for that but just saying it as I see it. :)

Shame Jacqueline never came back :(

I know what you mean. Many of the signs are there that we may be in the end days. The only being without sin that ever walked this earth is Jesus Christ. That says it all. God bless :)