Olaf

Ah yes, it's always the WRONG Islam. But still, the murdering in the NAME of Islam goes on!

No doubt we'll see no comments from my Islamic brothers and sisters here (as was the case of the Paris atrocities), because they are either covertly buoyed by the event, or too cowed by their religious indoctrination to condemn it publicly.

Thank you ECLIPSE. A thoroughly thought out answer, I must say. There's possibly a number of points there that could be debated, but the one I think is most intriguing is that of FREE WILL. How can you, I or we be absolutely certain that we have free will? Perhaps our brains are as they are, having developed organically from a genetic base, influenced by external (environmental) factors beyond our control, and ultimately having been set like a cast die; controlling' us irrespective of our imaginings that we have free will. That's possibly why some people having undergone childhood religious indoctrination, find themselves unable to release themselves from the bondage of their religious beliefs, no matter how illogical or how powerful the contradictory evidence. And in the same way, I cannot become a religious person: my brain just cannot take seriously what it recognises as pure humbug, and thus prevents me, the 'conscious' person, from even considering it. I could suggest for instance that I didn't really want to write all this, but that my brain made me do it! I think there's a chance that free will is not as simple a concept as is currently bandied around...particularly by 'believers', who like to use it as a 'blame' justification.

Hello Eclipse. I hope I'm not thought to be offensive here, but I am seriously curious about where knowledge come from, or in this case, how you came by it. You claim to know precisely what God knows- from beginning to end, as you say. But how do YOU know what God knows? How do YOU know that God's Will will be done in the end? Did God tell you this personally, or are you just speculating, or did you read this somewhere? Cheers and best wishes, Olaf.

Well I came here to learn more about Islam, and frankly, I find it (Islam) and the attitude of some of the posters here very worrisome. Olaf.

I don't mean to be rude or patronising Andalusi, but I feel sorry for you in a way. You're trying so hard to prove your religion's validity on a 'scientific' basis, yet all you end up doing is just quoting from religiously biased sources, from various crackpots, charlatans, and discredited 'scientist, who are either not qualified in the field under the spotlight, and/or whose 'science' doesn't conform to agreed and time tested scientific methods. Somebody appearing and making claims on Youtube, does not qualify as evidence. So far, all reports of near-death-experiences have failed to stand up when properly analysed. There are other and better and more plausible explanations for the experience of being near to death. But tell me Andalusi, what's your take on the 'soul' rising up into heaven? How do you think this would work? In what form does a person exist, and so on? Where is heaven? Where is God? And please, don't quote any more crackpots. Just tell me your personal understanding. I'm sincerely interested.

Er...oblivion, Eclipse. Anybody who thinks there's some form of 'life' when chemo-electrical activities cease (i.e. when a living body dies), is self-delusional and/or indoctrinated with religious mumbo-jumbo. When you're dead, you're dead. The life-after-death phenomenon stems from a confluence of fear of the unknown and wish-thinking and the tragedy of losing loved ones. But there's no mystery to death. Kaput is kaput! Whilst we may all wish to live a little longer, and never to lose our good friends and loved ones; when you're no longer a slave to the death-mystery and the futile longing for eternal life, than life acquires a new and invigorating zest: you become kind to yourself and kind to others, not because of some promised heavenly reward, but because being a good, kind, considerate and loving person brings its own rewards. Embrace this life, brothers and sisters; it's the only one you'll ever have. Amen.

Hello The Doc. That's very impressive, thanks. I shall look up Ibn Khaldun. I suspect his/her observation was perhaps a rather fanciful guess, resulting from a fertile imagination; mixed with unusual (for its time) insight and a poetic touch: rather than a truly exhaustive scientific investigation, as it was Darwin. I wonder now that why this is not part of Muslim currency. Was/is Ibn considered a lunatic or heretic? I shall investigate. Thanks again for the tip. Olaf.

I know this is old posting but I cannot for the life of me fathom why people of a religious bent persist on denying the phenomenon of evolution, when the evidence is so overwhelming and available to anyone who takes the trouble to look. Well, actually I DO know. The fact of evolution poses a devastating blow to the comfortable and easy to digest creation myth. However, there are many people with deep religious convictions (including some scientists) who have no problem accepting the evidence for evolution, and that includes major religions, popes, archbishops and what-have-you. BUT, having said that, even if the theory of evolution were to be wrong, it still doesn't prove that gods exist or are responsible for creating the universe. Evolution is based on good evidence. Gods are mere intellectual constructs. So forget trying to argue the science. It's pointless. Evolution is a fact, like air water and earth. Please, my Islamic brothers and sisters, just stick to theology.

Good God! Are you actually saying that Muslims should not think for themselves, but should simply accept Islamic teaching and Islamic faith without question? That's scary indeed! Olaf.

There's little point arguing scientific matters with you Andalusi, because you cut and paste your information from unreliable sources e.g. Christian apologetic sites. The scientist that make some of the claims that you quote are already committed to a religion, and therefore like you, are trying to make science fit into a pre-existing belief. That's not how science works. Secondly, they are often not experts in the field under scrutiny. That's a bit like a geologist making profound observations about biology on the basis of having read a few biology books. That's not the same as having a lifetime, in depth commitment to a particular scientific discipline. Secondly, their work and observation and conclusions have often not been published, peer reviewed or taken seriously by a vast majority of experts in that particular field. Lastly, and importantly, even if we can't fully explain certain scientific phenomena, that does not mean that there must be a creator god in the sky. The most you could conclude is: 'we don't know'! But there's at least good evidence that leads us to certain explanations. The evidence for the existence of gods is precisely zero. God's are not falsifiable, which is a very good reason for rejecting their existence. Stay out of science and mathematics, Andalusi, because you do yourself no credit. Just stick to arguing theology. All the best.

Andalusi, your statement... Many atheists say that life was created by chance. Now i ask them , can you take numbers from 1 to 20 in a row, shake it a throw numbers out and what is the chance, that 20 numbers are in order 1,2,3,4,5....20 and not like this 3,5,1,9,15, 17... The chance that such event happens is 0% ...is 100% incorrect. The probability of the numbers being in sequential (numerical) order are just the same as they are for being in any other order i.e. non-sequential. There are 20! (twenty factorial) possible permutations of twenty numbers, hence the chances of them being in any one of those permutations i.e. 1, 2, 3, 4,....20 or 17, 3, 5, 19, ...etc., are just the same: 1 in 2.43 x 1018. If you don't believe it, try this experiment for yourself: determine a random arrangement of numbers from 1 to 20. Write the numbers from 1 to 20 on ping-pong balls or pieces of paper (or what have you), Put them in a box and draw out 20 balls one at the time and note down the order. I think you'll find that you'll be drinking lots of cups of coffee before YOUR numbers come up! What's more, there's an equal chance you might draw out a perfect numerical sequence before your numbers come up. Play X-Lotto, and see how just often your six number come up, to give you some idea. The trouble with your rebuttals of random natural processes is that you are making arguments from ignorance. I don't mean that in an unkind or insulting way. it's just that it would seem as if you have not taking the time to read even the basics of biology (or mathematics) to gain some insight into what IS possible. But because your views are so heavily influenced by your BELIEFS, and because you don't understand something, you're simply closing your eyes (and your mind) and saying: it can't be possible!! Well, the fact is, there's a considerable amount of evidence and knowledge 'out there' that can demonstrate beyond doubt that certain things ARE possible. What I personally always find so baffling is that people who hold attitudes similar to yourself, be they Muslims, Christians or Hindus or whatever etc. etc., is that you cannot believe that an eye could evolve and be formed to it's present state by small incremental steps over a long period of time, but you can believe that an invisible, unknowable being, somewhere in the sky, can create billions of galaxies, each containing billions of stars, and can somehow create millions of living organism and human beings out of a handful of dust. Yes, THAT you can believe! Doesn't it ever worry you that your explanation has absolutely no evidence to support it? The only thing you've got to go on is what you were taught to believe: a religious doctrine which you keep on reinforcing by talking to yourself, instead of looking to the evidence that overwhelmingly refutes what you believe. Have your beliefs by all means, but please, don't try to make them scientific. Cheers, Olaf.

I looked at those 'miracles', I can only conclude that together with ALL claims of 'miracles', they are just so much unsubstantiated nonsense. Notice how 'miracles' always seem to happen somewhere in the distant past, in the absence of reliable witnesses, and never documented, noted or commented on outside of (holy) scriptures. We have an abundance of ancient documents (or artifacts) that record many mundane and relatively insignificant events: but potable water flowing from someones finger...well, that apparently wasn't worth recording.

It's easy enough to become a Muslim, that's for sure. But what happens if a person utters the Shahadah (with sincere intentions), but subsequently changes his or her mind and wants to convert to another faith? Or no faith at all?

Well, Donald_M, if the rules of the website prohibit or stifle free and open discussion, then the appellation 'Forum' would be a non-sequitur. Acts of terrorism are significant world events and are in urgent need of discussion and analysis, not just at 'official' levels, but also by the rank and file; and where there is a link, however tenuous, to religious fanaticism, then a forum such as this is precisely the place where opinions/comments should be able to be aired. No, I suspect that the absence of commentary lies at a greater depth. I think it is obvious to any non-religious free-thinking person that all religions to a lesser or greater degree depend on the conformity of its flock to official doctrine. The self-styled self-appointed intermediaries (be they popes, priests, clergymen/women, pastors, imams, ayatollahs, mufti, yogi, lamas, witchdoctors, shaman et al) between the common throng and their respective deities, cannot tolerate dissent, lest it weakens their influence, power, privileges and self-importance. Hence the constructs of heresy, blasphemy and apostasy: punishments designed to deal with dissenting voices. Certainly in the past (not that long ago actually) Christianity dealt with opinions opposed or deemed 'offensive' to the central doctrine, with exquisite tortures and death- much as does parts of Islam today. http://freethoughtreport.com/download-the-report/ And to further encourage adherence and loyalty to the tribe, many religions promise a form of blissful 'afterlife': a glorious eternal existence at the side of a loving God. Adherents having experienced from an early age the threat of a temporal stick and the promise of a divine carrot, understandingly prefer to not rock the boat! (Perhaps they're not even cognisant that there is a boat to be rocked!) But it goes deeper than that still. There's also peer group pressure, and that includes subtle (and not so subtle) forms of intimidation. I'm sure there must be more than a few Islamists who feel the urge to comment on, or question certain aspects of their religion, but feel restrained to do so for fear of ridicule, condemnation or even a violent retort from within their own community. Could these be the reason then, that my sincere request for discussion has been met with deadly silence? After all, more than 700 people have viewed my post, but apart from the 'free will' discussion above, no other comments have been posted. Best wishes for the new year to all. Olaf.