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Crunchy Cat

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Everything posted by Crunchy Cat

  1. Atheist's Psychology

    I almost forgot to address the op. It's not a matter of figuring something out, it's a survivial behavior run amok. A psychological phenomena called anthropomorphism is where humans project human qualities on to non human objects / phenomena. For example, bugs bunny, mother nature, father time, the grim reaper, and 'God' (projection of human qualities onto the universe). Can you provide some examples of the definsiveness in question? I can probably better answer the question once I understand what you are seeing. Whenever I hear the word 'God', I think delusion resulting from anthropomorphization of reality into an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent life form. Can you show me the study demonstrating that the world's population of atheists are more inclined towards philosophy than science?
  2. Atheist's Psychology

    It's most often a value conflict. Atheists value truth more than the emotional / psychological satiation of fantasy. Theists value the emotional / psychological satiation of fantasy more than truth.
  3. Please Help, I Need Advice.

    A big message of Islam is to use your brain, so if you really love her then be there for her... and that's it.
  4. The question was asking for atheist opinion (a speculation... not a statement of truth). In that context, what I stated IS my opinion. To declare it 'wrong' would require you to produce evidence that is not my opinion. I am doing just fine... crunchy even in milk as always! How are you doing odobknarf? BTW, I don't think I ever told you that I love your online name... mainly because it has the word 'narf' in it :sl:.
  5. Neither. I strongly speculate it is: 3. Reality always exists and our universe is a small cross-section of change.
  6. That's an easy one. Nobody knows. What we do know is that the universe went through a rapid inflation, a few minor contractions, and is presently in accelerated inflation. Most inflationary models and m-theory models that explore what is outside of our universe predict that our universe is a blip of change in a larger system of infinite change. For example, type II A/B m-theory predicts that our universe is a natural D-brane formation at the end of a throat (or around a handle) of infinite Calibi Yao space.
  7. Plans To Attack Our Forum

    If they come, modify their posts so they appear to be threatening other members personally. Track their IP's and then contact the police. They will be traced, exposed, and arrested. As you can see I don't advocate a fair fight :sl:.
  8. Between a concept and an anology. For example a belief in the paranormal is not the equivelant to water nor is it a biological necessity as water is. It's evolutionary psychology 101. You are of course forgetting that alot of the world is different now. For example, whether or not I accept the assertions of a social group no longer has any bearing on the resources I can attain necessary to survial. Moths often cannot distinguish between star light and light bulbs. The behavior is an evolutionary advantage of navigation by star light. Belief is similar in this respect. Children for example cannot distinguish between a belief that is based on reality or one that is based on fantasy. To them it's proverbially just another source of photons.
  9. Opinion would be "I don't like it". Lack of conformity would objectify it a little bit. My statement is that its a survival mechanism. If it weren't it wouldn't be present. As a child if you believe what your parents said about swimming in a crocodile infested lake then you are going to survive. If you believe what a group believes then they are more likely to share their resources with you. If you hear something strange and believe you are going to be attacked and run like hell then if you're right then you survived. There is nothing that contradicts this. Belief rests on human evaluation of information. It can be logical, illogical, etc. It's mechanism is rooted in its ability to promote human survial.
  10. The anology is so bad it's like hammering a large square peg into a small circular slot. Belief is a survial mechanism allowing you to (for example) make quick decisions in the presence of incomplete information. It is not an accurate determiner of truth.
  11. Of course if the water doesn't exist then the horse couldn't drink regardless. If the person leading the horse cannot distinguish between water and non-water then the horse is screwed.
  12. To make it sounds more believable. An example credible publication I have read is: Watt, W. Montgomery (1961). Muhammad: Prophet and Statesman. Oxford University Press, 19. ISBN 0-19-881078-4. But yes, you are correct in that the moment the objective reality test fails is the moment the whole house of cards falls apart as being true. Sorry, arrogance or not... truth is truth. You're assuming I haven't; however, to an atheist it is too much to ask if there is no demonstrable value to it. Remember, we already know the paranormal is bunk and that is the foundation that most forms of theism rest on. The probability of such a day existing is equal to the probability of an invisible pink unicorn drinking coffee on the event horizon of a worm hole in the zaboombafoo dimension.
  13. The Quran of course makes incorrect assertions about objective reality; hence, it is not perfect nor is there objective evidence it was dictated by an omnipotent life form. Stage performers often give flawless performances with practive. David Copperfield for example has never made an error. I'll speculate that Muhammad's potential epilepsy was used in combination with an equivelant of practiced stage performance. ... ... ... <CONTINUED>
  14. It would be closest to a hobby given the choices listed. I disagree those are the only three possibilities because they can come in different combinations that do make them distinct; however, because the objective reality test fails, it rules out the option of telling the truth. Beauty can be understood objectively. It is any kind of cognitive activity that stimulates the pleasure center. Of course it can also be understood subjectively by experiencing it. I did, just not in the way you wanted. I'll address them individually if it helps the message to be understood better. There's a decided agreement among American enthusiasts that Harry Perry musical work is inimitateable. No human, to this day, can come up with verses that sound anything like it: (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetyoutube(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/watch?v=mCohY_CtQlM"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetyoutube(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/watch?v=mCohY_CtQlM[/url] ... ... ... <CONTINUED>
  15. I agree and just because there might be possibilities doesn't make them probabilities. Take a look at the number of views on the thread and other popular threads where atheists and / or theists disagree with each other. You will note that assertions are usually read repeatedly. Islam's value exists in any philosophical gems that result in practical constructive behavior or emotional / psychological need fulfillment. That's one reason I choose to learn about many religions included; however, it provides no other value beyond because it neither establishes objective truth or furthers objective knowledge. You're issuing a claim that other realities are possible; however, not only is there no evidence of this, all observations and theories strongly suggest a single reality (not universe). Now there might be other universes out there... ours might be a part of a multiverse of some kind; however, they would all be connected by a single raw reality. While other universes may have vastly different properties they would still be consistent, persistent, and non-contradictory. Regardless of whether or not it sounds arrogant, what matters is if its true. Because I posess knowledge of human behavior doesn't make me an omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient life form. An excellent question! Some of the gems are leadership principles, learning principles, judgment priciples, dietary principles, working pricniples, and relationship principles. Often times yes. That would be neat if I could; however, I think I need to simply contribute to some ground work concerning identification of human needs, outlets for them, behavioral relations, etc. ... ... ... <CONTINUED>
  16. As repeater correctly pointed out the purpose of this thread was to theists an opportunity to provide evidence on atheists terms. It's bullheaded and arrogant to assume otherwise.
  17. Of course it's not fair :j:, we're not on equal ground; however, like you implied I get to expose your reactions and observe. Like I said, philosophy has limits. Also, circular assertions are those that don't define, differentiate, and connect to the objective. None of the original definitions I provided have that issue. The issue is that you're attacking the wrong issue :D. I claim that if you put your hand in camp fire for 10 minutes, your hand will be burned. The demonstration and the result are self evident. It is consistent, persistent, and non-contradictory. It is falsifiable. Anyone can perform it. Try to do the same for the paranormal. You're essentially debating against reality and that is a debate that you can never win. No matter what, you have no objective evidence to influence an atheist with and you are not influencable by the objective evidence that an atheist would have. To demonstrate, ask yourself the question: What would convince you that Islam is false? The answer of course is nothing. Deep down inside you know that all other religion's assertions are false so they pose no threat as an alternative 'God' is never going to say "oh you got it wrong and now you are going to undergo torture for an eternity in my hell". What remains of course is truth... and that poses a real threat; however, it can be dismissed simply by valuing your psychological / emotional needs above it.
  18. Of what claim specifically? I cannot demonstrate anything miraculuous nor will I demonstrate the upper bound of my knowledge on any topic as I don't have the stamina or desire to write a book simply to appease you. I can demonstrate that I know about Muhammad's life he is documented as having; however, I would question what value there is in doing so. Correction, I gave you a video of many fish jumping out of a large body of water and observing what is outside of it. Maybe it was too much sensory input and because it was a lake it somehow prevented you from seeing the fish. Lets focus in a little. Here is a single fish jumping out of the ocean; thus, observing what is outside of it: (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetyoutube(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/watch?v=jw3b-yRfbCI"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetyoutube(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/watch?v=jw3b-yRfbCI[/url] Wait, are you saying the book demonstrates that 'God' objectively exists? Regarding open mindedness: (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetweirdsciencecolumn(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/site_weirdsciencecolumn/weirdscience-openmind112504.htm"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetweirdsciencecolumn(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/site_wei...nmind112504.htm[/url]
  19. Theres nothing in particular to enlighten you about. I know enough to know that the paranormal is bunk and that invalidates any claims of it being true. I know enough to extract any value surrounding such claims and discard the rest. You bet: (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetyoutube(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/watch?v=m30U8TQXriQ"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetyoutube(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/watch?v=m30U8TQXriQ[/url] Does the book demonstrate the existence of the paranormal?
  20. I know and I have to eat, sleep, work, and pay attention to the little ones just like everyone else.
  21. Unfair? Maybe. Dishonest? Not in the least. What that genuine conversation established was a firm observation of the the answers to the OP. Notice how no muslims are disagreeing with your assertions and no atheists are disagreeing with mine in that little commentary. The issue between atheism and theism is a value conflict and an inability to use our respective values to influence or be influenced by the others. Thats what it is. Claim: A camp fire will burn your hand badly if you leave your hand in it for 10 minutes. Demonstrate: Put your hand in a camp fire for 10 minutes. Observe: Does the demonstration correspond to the claim's validity? Looks quite valid. There is nothing to indicate that other realities would be real or even possible. In fact what is known about reality (not our Universe as that is often confused with reality) suggests there is only one. I know exactly why you and others are Muslim. It's human psychology. I know why you see 'God' in everything. I know why you feel 'God'. I know why people 'believe'. I know what psychological needs are met by Theism. I know all these things from an objective standpoint as well as from a subjective experiential standpoint. Part of my interest in Islam is that there are a few philisophical gems within it that have caught my attention; however, I don't know if they are practical and exerciseable in day to day life. Alot of my interaction with people on this form takes the form of a larger experiment to see if those philosophies translate into coherent human behavior. The ones that do are the ones that have value to them. I do the same thing for other religions as well. What I am trying to do is extract the constructive and effective gems and formulate a model of how they work. In addition I am modeling various human psychological / emotional needs and observing how the interact with any extracted gem.
  22. Heh, I use that tactic to draw people into a conversation sometimes. Attempt to assign guilt, pity, and a challenge of judgment. At least your honest in your desire to manipulate. Popper's territory was philosophy not science. His claim to fame was the assertion that if it's not falsifiable then its not science... which is good. What I don't think he realized is that if something is not falsifiable then it's also not real :j:. He criticized inductionism alot but when you look at his examples, his criticism is really about incompleteness. For example, if I assert the sun rises in the west then that assertion is true unless for example the Earth is destroyed by a black hole. It's a foofy philosophical argument and asserters of science knew about incompleteness long before Popper issued his criticisms. Now, back to my assertion of reality being consistent, persistent, and non-contradictory while at the same time my knowledge of reality being incomplete. A Popper inductionism criticism would really mean that my assertion does not take into account the incompleteness and therefore might be falsified by that incompleteness despite the observation that reality violations don't occur. This is where philosophy hits a limit because it is a product of a human being... a biological difference detection machine that collects energy to persist... completely subject to the laws of reality. Jumping into science, if reality was violated and contructs such as difference, interaction, quantity, quality, symmetry / non-symmetry, distribution, etc. ceased to function then there could be no truth, there could be no information, there wouldn't be anything. In other words a reality violation would be equivelant to non-existence; however, there is no evidence that an objective 'nothing' exists; hence, the implication (and it's a very strong one) is that something always exists and for that something to be there it has to be consistent, persistent, and non-contradictory. This is why philosophy isn't very valuable to the world of science consequently... it has limits in its touch points with reality (and it often ends up as an exploration of the subjective world rather than the objective one).
  23. Knowledge by observation, knowledge through education, knowledge by work, knowledge by experimentation, you name it. I do think the point as rather been missed. Any knowledge gained about Islam doesn't change one simple truth. It's claims of the paranormal cannot be demonstrated as being real; whereas, claims in science (for example) can be demonstrated as being real. For example, I claim the zaboombafoo dimension exists and produce three billion pages of information aboute it are you going to study it to every last detail if I can't demonstrate it really exists? If your answer is yes then I have to assume we have a vast difference in our understanding of how to learn.
  24. Any claims to the definition of reality I asserted are verifiable. They are self-evident observables. Observations are facts. It's really that simple. If it wasn't you would be able to find objective contradiction in a heat-beat... but you cannot. This is so tragic. A circular definition would be for example "A cell phone is a phone that is cellular". None of the definitions provided do this. Regardless of completeness, so long as a defintion is bound to something that uniquely identifies it then it's a solid definition. 'Brand' of objective evidence? There is only one kind... reality provides it. You gain visibility, make an observation, and viola... you have a fact... you have a hunk of evidence. Now if you plug that into a theory is up to you. Saying the pragraph is dismissed doesn't dismiss it. The definitions I provided are supported by observation and there is no contradiction to it. It's not an assumption. It's an observation... a fact. The bottom line is that I can demonstrate a claim (I did in the case of an invisible substance being lighter than air). You in turn can replicate the demonstration and I can even hold your hand and show you how. Lordy... it's not unknown... its incomplete and you're ignoring existing knowledge. It's another defense mechanism to shield a belief. Ignore the knowns, claim allegory, reinterpret words, reinterpret context, place it out of bounds, etc. etc. etc. Anyhow, this topic is technically over regardless. Here is a summary: Q: What will it take for an atheist to believe? A: Objective evidence that the paranormal is real. Q: Can muslims provide that objective evidence? A: No. Q: Would muslims be influenced by any objective evidence that demonstrates their belief is incorrect? A: No.
  25. Heh, I think the debate for this topic is over. The OP questions were answered :sl:. The answer to your question of course is that it fails the objective reality test. Evidence is a demonstration of truth and that is out of theism's reach. At the same time, I always love a good debate though. There might be a themed thread for a good ol' fashioned 'Atheists vs. Theists' throwdown ja?