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JCBeliever

Seperate Religion And State?

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Peace and Salaam to everyone,

 

We see in the Middle East and some African countries that some governments have integrated Islam and the State, only to form what Westerners see as oppressive and corrupted states (Iran, Sudan, Taliban, to name some). Do you Easterners see this the same way? Should State be non-religious and religion not be entwined with state?

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Peace

 

Religion is not the cause of corruption or oppression (Islam is against both), people are.

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October 1, 2007

 

From Iraq to Burma Hypocrisy Rules the West[using large font size is not allowed]

 

By PAUL CRAIG ROBERTS

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetcounterpunch(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/roberts10012007.html"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetcounterpunch(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/roberts10012007.html[/url]

 

Shame has vanished from Western "civilization." Hypocrisy has taken its place.

 

On September 28, British Prime Minister Gordon Brown could be heard on National Public Radio decrying the use of violence against democratic protesters by the government in Burma. Brown declared the British people's revulsion over the violence inflicted by the Burmese government on its people. But Brown said nothing about the violence the British government was inflicting on Iraqis and Afghans.

 

George W. Bush also struck the blameless pose when he declared: "The world is watching the people of Burma take to the streets to demand their freedom, and the American people stand in solidarity with these brave individuals."

 

Bush and Brown do not have the same sympathy for the peoples of Iraq and Afghanistan. Neither Bush nor Brown stand in solidarity with those who are demanding their freedom from foreign occupation by American and British troops. Indeed, Bush and Brown, as commanders in chief, are on a killing spree that makes the government in Burma look extremely restrained by comparison.

 

Why were British soldiers sent to kill Iraqis and Afghans? September 11 had nothing whatsoever to do with the UK. No doubt but that the corrupt Tony Blair was paid off to drag the British people into Bush's Middle East war for American/israeli hegemony, but Brown has done nothing to terminate Bush's use of the British military as mercenaries.

 

The NPR announcers also supported the Burmese people, but they, too, show little disturbance over Bush's five-year old wars that we now know were based entirely on lies. Al Qaeda is not the Taliban, and Iraq had no WMD. Neither country was a threat to the US. Now that we know this, why does the media still give Bush and Brown a free pass to use violence against Iraqis and Afghans?

 

To cut to the chase, what is the difference between Bush and Brown on one hand and the murderous Burmese government on the other? Bush and Brown are actually worse. They pretend to be democrats concerned with what people actually want. The Burmese government doesn't pretend to be anything but a military dictatorship. Moreover, the Burmese government is clean by comparison as it hasn't committed acts of naked aggression--war crimes under the Nuremberg standard--by invading other countries and attempting to occupy them.

 

Despite all the killing Bush has accomplished, he thirsts for yet more blood. Iran is in his and israel's sights. All indications are that Bush is going to attack Iran. Propaganda, demonizations, and crass lies are pouring out of the Bush regime and its media and academic propagandists such as Columbia University president Lee Bollinger. Both parties in Congress have lined up behind the coming attack on Iran. The despicable senator Joe Lieberman even snuck language into a bill to give Bush the go ahead.

 

Who is going to stop Bush from a third war crime? Not his vice president, Not his national security adviser, not his secretary of defense. Not his secretary of state. Not Congress. Not the US military. Not the corporate fat cats. Not the israel Lobby. Not the bought and paid for "allies." Not the anti-war movement. Not the American people. Certainly not the media.

 

Americans are content with whatever crimes their government commits as long as the justification is Americans' safety.

 

Americans' willingness to murder others out of fear for their own safety is a result of September 11. The antiwar movement is impotent, because it has accepted the government's 9/11 story. To oppose a war when you accept the government's reason for the war is an indefensible position.

 

The Bush regime knows that if people will believe its 9/11 story, they will believe anything. Propaganda silences facts, and Americans fall for one set of falsehoods after another. Americans believe the government's lies that Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, and Syria are responsible. Americans have been convinced that without "regime change" in these countries, the American superpower will remain helpless in face of stateless Muslims armed with box cutters.

 

Americans have been brainwashed to believe that Muslims hate us for our "freedom and democracy," whereas in fact the problem is the US government's immoral foreign policy and interference in the internal affairs of Muslim countries. Bush's message to the Middle East is clear: Be a puppet state or be destroyed.

 

In the meantime, to prevent democracy and civil liberties from getting in the way of making Americans safe, Bush has set aside habeas corpus, due process, right to legal representation, privacy, and the separation of powers mandated by the US Constitution. Otherwise, Bush says, we will lose the "war on terror."

 

Bush says he has made Americans safe by ridding them of these constitutional impediments to their safety. And once American bombs fall on Iran and Syria, those countries will be free and democratic, too, like Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

In leading Americans to this conclusion, Bush has sunk the United States to a new low in human intelligence and morality.

Paul Craig Roberts was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan administration. He was Associate Editor of the Wall Street Journal editorial page and Contributing Editor of National Review. He is coauthor of The Tyranny of Good Intentions.He can be reached at: PaulCraigRoberts[at]yahoo(contact admin if its a beneficial link)

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Your allegation above is refuted by my thread The Uk, Us And israeli Regimes Bomb Civilian Targets In Iraq:

Bombing civilian targets to start civil wars in Iraq ( Political Front).

 

The US invasion of Iraq based on Bush's lies is illegal. And the US regime and its US forces and its allies have committed war crimes in Iraq by systematically invading, destroying and occupying Iraq, using weapons of mass destruction to destroy civilian targets and massacre innocent Iraqi people, imposing food sanctions and economy embargoes on Iraq to cause millions of Iraqi babies and children to die, terrorizing, torturing, raping and murdering/massacring innocent and defenseless Iraqi people etc.

 

The Lancet, one of Europe's most important and respected medical journals, estimating that 650,000 Iraqis had been killed due to the U.S.-led invasion of their country, 601,000 violently. Source: Burnham, Gilbert, Riyadh Lafta, Shannon Doocy, and Les Roberts, "Mortality after the 2003 invasion of Iraq: a cross-sectional cluster sample survey," The Lancet, October 11, 2006

 

The Nation recently interviewed fifty Iraq combat veterans on the record, of whom "dozens … witnessed Iraqi civilians, including children, dying from American firepower." The veterans said these killings usually went unreported and unpunished, one suggesting that it would be impossible to investigate every incident where an Iraqi civilian was killed or wounded because they are so frequent. Source: Hedges, Chris and Laila Al-Arian, "The Other War: Iraq Vets Bear Witness," The Nation, July 9, 2007
Edited by wiseguy

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JCBeliever.....why do you condone the war crimes committed by the US regime, its US forces and its allies?

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You know, ######, it's possible to condemn war crimes committed by everyone, Muslim, Westerner, Easterner, Pacific Islander, whatever. In fact many people here who condemn the atrocities of the Taliban, Al Quaeda, etc, HAVE condemned (eg) the invasion of Iraq and the civillian deaths. Do you condemn the Taliban for targetting schools which teach girls? A 'yes' or a 'no' will be fine.

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Religion is not the cause of corruption or oppression (Islam is against both), people are.

 

Actually, religion IS (sometimes) the cause of oppression. It's just that most religions define themselves as being unable to oppress. If I lived on Aceh and wanted to wear my Speedos to the beach, taking along my clarinet, a nice bottle of wine, some ham sandwiches and my affectionate same-sex partner (whose teddy-bear is called Mohammed), religion would mean that I was not allowed to. I would be oppressed. The same applies to any religion which has rules of behaviour. If a religion says that some behaviour is wrong and enforces it, some people are oppressed. Of course, from the religious perspective it isn't repression, it's ensuring harmony with a god or gods.

 

Face it - either you tolerate behaviour that your religion condemns or you are setting yourself up for a life of trying to oppress people.

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JCBeliever.....why do you condone the war crimes committed by the US regime, its US forces and its allies?

 

Because, I don't believe your sources. America has precision missiles. Some civilians may have been killed, true, but not that many. Besides, these were not purposeful attempts to destroy innocent lives, not like what Alqaeda, millitias, and the Taliban were doing, or the 9-11 people were doing. Yes, would you condemn these people??

 

 

Actually, religion IS (sometimes) the cause of oppression. It's just that most religions define themselves as being unable to oppress. If I lived on Aceh and wanted to wear my Speedos to the beach, taking along my clarinet, a nice bottle of wine, some ham sandwiches and my affectionate same-sex partner (whose teddy-bear is called Mohammed), religion would mean that I was not allowed to. I would be oppressed. The same applies to any religion which has rules of behaviour. If a religion says that some behaviour is wrong and enforces it, some people are oppressed. Of course, from the religious perspective it isn't repression, it's ensuring harmony with a god or gods.

 

Face it - either you tolerate behaviour that your religion condemns or you are setting yourself up for a life of trying to oppress people.

 

That is why I don't believe religion should be the same as secular law because religions become corrupt when they have power over everyone. The best thing that happened to the Catholic Church is when the Pope lost the Papal states. Material corruption wasa thing of the past. I don't see a problem with a state based on ethical principles found in religions, I believe America was designed this way by the founding fathers.

 

To relate back to Islam. Muslims wanting to establish Sharia as the state law of the land are begging for severely corrupted politics. I mean, just look at Iran and Sudan. I hope to God these aren't their ideal Islamic countries!

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Hi all

 

It comes down to freedom of speech, but with it has to come freedom to offend also.

 

I currently have no religious beliefs but i would stand next to you and protest if they tried to ban people from having them said beliefs. Even if i find them beliefs offensive i feel you should have to right have them UNTIL it opposes on others freedom of speech.

 

 

Peace all

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:sl:

Muslims consider implementing Replacing Islamic Laws with the laws of corrupt Politicians as an aspect of Disbelief.

Any one who does it is a disbeliever. Politics have always generally been corrupt whether Muslim or Not .

 

Islamic Laws are meant to prevent people from encroaching on other's freedoms. And It includes preventing people from Alcohol , because the evil it causes is worse than any amount of Good in it, Its effect on the society is well known.

 

Face it - either you tolerate behaviour that your religion condemns or you are setting yourself up for a life of trying to oppress people.

Nonsense,

How many of your countries allow people to walk naked through out the country ?

Isn't concesual Incest still criminal in almost western liberal countries?

How about taking drugs because I want to?

Who has the right to say what I should do and do no ...Its my body , my life ....<invidualistic rant>

 

There, you are oppressing all the people who want to do above . Why the double standards ?

 

 

 

Do you condemn the Taliban for targetting schools which teach girls? A 'yes' or a 'no' will be fine.

Iam not ######, If Taliban has done it then they should be condemned for it .

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Because, I don't believe your sources. America has precision missiles. Some civilians may have been killed, true, but not that many. Besides, these were not purposeful attempts to destroy innocent lives, not like what Alqaeda, millitias, and the Taliban were doing, or the 9-11 people were doing. Yes, would you condemn these people??

What about Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo bay ?

what about the rapists in your army ?

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Because, I don't believe your sources.

 

I CAN LEAD A HORSE TO WATER, BUT I CAN'T MAKE IT DRINK. And the horse would die of thirst because of its ignorance.

 

America has precision missiles. Some civilians may have been killed, true, but not that many. Besides, these were not purposeful attempts to destroy innocent lives, not like what Alqaeda, millitias, and the Taliban were doing, or the 9-11 people were doing. Yes, would you condemn these people??

 

Precision missiles? What a joke!

 

The fact is the US Air Force has attacked and destroyed civilian targets killing innocent civilians in Iraq, Afghanistan etc.

 

Lets us read the following news:

 

1) Afghans: NATO airstrikes kill 14 workers

 

By AMIR SHAH, Associated Press Writer

Wed Nov 28, 6:57 PM ET

 

KABUL, Afghanistan - NATO warplanes hunting Taliban fighters in eastern Afghanistan mistakenly bombed an Afghan road construction crew sleeping in tents, killing 14 workers, Afghan officials said Wednesday.

 

If confirmed that NATO hit the wrong target, the incident in mountainous Nuristan province late Monday would be the first major blunder in months. U.S.- and NATO-led forces drew sharp criticism earlier this year for causing civilian casualties that have undermined their reputation among Afghan civilians and hurt Western-backed President Hamid Karzai's government.

 

Afghan officials said bombs hit two tents housing Afghan engineers and laborers contracted by the U.S. military to build a road, killing 14 workers.

 

US, NATO and other foreign troops in Afghanistan came under scathing criticism earlier this year for carrying out airstrikes based on poor intelligence that caused numerous civilian casualties.

 

2) Three British soldiers killed by bomb from American jet

by JAMES KIRKUP

Sat 25 Aug 2007

 

The forces, from 1st Battalion, the Royal Anglian Regiment, called for air support from US forces. But when two US F-15 aircraft arrived at the scene, one dropped a bomb directly on to a British position, killing the three soldiers instantly and two ended up in hospital.

 

Source: The Scotsman

 

That is why I don't believe religion should be the same as secular law because religions become corrupt when they have power over everyone. The best thing that happened to the Catholic Church is when the Pope lost the Papal states. Material corruption wasa thing of the past. I don't see a problem with a state based on ethical principles found in religions, I believe America was designed this way by the founding fathers.

 

Christian churches, priests and their officials had abused Europe by manipulating states and people of Europe during the Dark Ages of Europe and the Middle Ages of Europe that caused Christians to separate state from church by embracing secularism.

 

To relate back to Islam. Muslims wanting to establish Sharia as the state law of the land are begging for severely corrupted politics. I mean, just look at Iran and Sudan. I hope to God these aren't their ideal Islamic countries!

 

The hypocrisy of the West is very clear when it produces nuclear weapons to destroy all mankind and civilizations, uses nuclear energy for generating electricity, and allows the israeli regime of terror to have nuclear weapons so that it can terrorize Arab countries such as Palestine and Lebanon with impunity. On the contrary Iraq is attacked, invaded and occupied by the West for the non-existent WMDs. When a Muslim country tries to develop nuclear power plant to generate electricity for domestic purposes, the West threatens to attack and destroy the nuclear power plant and the western media slander and insult the Muslim country.

 

The West claims falsely that it is promoting democracy while rejecting the Hamas government that is elected by the majority of Palestinian people through a fair democratic election.

 

Darfur in Sudan has oil wells and petroleum reserve so the West wants the oil by trying to intervene in Sudan which is a Muslim country. On the contrary, the West including the US regime allows Hutus and Tutsis (both are Christians) to massacre each other during the infamous Rwanda genocide. The West doesn't care about the starvations, poverty etc in other countries because the countries don't have any petroleum reserve.

 

The fact is the West is being ruled by a bunch of hypocrites.

Edited by wiseguy

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What about Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo bay ?

what about the rapists in your army ?

 

Abu Ghraib was one incident and the millitary punished those involved.

At Guantanamo bay, come on! These people are allowed Qurans. Is this treatment seen in your countries for other prisoners of other religions? Besides, if these people are released, they go right back fighting the US. What do you do with them?

Rapists in American army, you think this was a barbarian horde or something? There aren't the Huns, but the millitary of a civilized country.

 

 

When a Muslim country tries to develop nuclear power plant to generate electricity for domestic purposes, the West threatens to attack and destroy the nuclear power plant and the western media slander and insult the Muslim country.

 

You mean Iran? The leader of Iran said that israel should be wiped off the earth. And then they want to suddenly build peaceful nuclear powerplants. Some people don't trust these guys.

 

So do you condemn Sunni/Shiite millitias and Taliban and Al-quaeda? You must have forgot to answer. You mentioned two accidents, but these guys I listed, they don't kill people in "accidents"!

 

 

The fact is the West is being ruled by a bunch of hypocrites.

 

I'm not saying that Western countries are perfect, but they truly protect religious freedoms. Both Muslims and Christians and convert people to their religions without being arrested and punished. What happens to missionaries in the Middle East?

Edited by JCBeliever

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Abu Ghraib was one incident and the millitary punished those involved.

 

Abu Gharaid is just one of numerous US illegal concentration/detention centers all over the world in which innocent men and women are terrorized, tortured, raped or murdered by the soulless US-Zionist soldiers and agents. It reflects the brutality, barbarity and cruelty of the so-called civilized USA.

 

At Guantanamo bay, come on! These people are allowed Qurans. Is this treatment seen in your countries for other prisoners of other religions? Besides, if these people are released, they go right back fighting the US. What do you do with them?

 

At Guantanamo bay, innocent Muslim men and women, who are defending their countries against the US imperialism, are terrorized, tortured, raped or murdered by the soulless US-Zionist soldiers and agents. My country does not treat non-Muslims as animals. Non-Muslims have their right in my country. And we never desecrate the Bible nor the Torah. On the contrary, Bush and his American terrorists have no proofs to try them in any courts of law so Bush and his terrorists imprison them without trial. Hitler and Bush are twin brothers. And the US-Zionist soldiers and agents have desecrated the Holy Quran according to the media.

 

Yes Muslims have their right to defend their countries against the US imperialism. Even French people fought the Nazi forces to liberate France and Americans fought the British to liberate USA. And the US regime emerges as the worst terrorist organization that attack, invade and occupy sovereign countries and terrorizing or massacring millions of innocent civilians.

 

Rapists in American army, you think this was a barbarian horde or something? There aren't the Huns, but the millitary of a civilized country.

Yes US soldiers are barbarians for raping innocent girls and women in Germany, Japan, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq etc after the 2nd World. Therefore the US army is a barbarian horde.

 

You mean Iran? The leader of Iran said that israel should be wiped off the earth. And then they want to suddenly build peaceful nuclear powerplants. Some people don't trust these guys.

 

israel should be wiped off the earth for it is established by Zionist terrorists through illegal, brutal, barbaric and sadistic methods. It also attack and terrorize Arab countries. Zionists have terrorized and massacred innocent Palestinian and Lebanese people. If the US regime had wiped the Nazi regime off the earth, I have my right to wipe israel off the earth so that Palestinian people may get their land back.

 

I'm not saying that Western countries are perfect, but they truly protect religious freedoms. Both Muslims and Christians and convert people to their religions without being arrested and punished. What happens to missionaries in the Middle East?

 

The secular Western countries have committed brutal war crimes against humanity. They massacred more than 6,500,000 people during the Napoleonic Wars, 10 million people during the 1st World War, 62 million people during the 2nd World War etc. Western countries truly protect their hypocrisy and freedom to wage wars, invade and occupy other secular countries and terrorize and massacre innocent people. Therefore secular countries are practising the rule of jungle.

Edited by wiseguy

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Abu Gharaid is just one of numerous US illegal concentration/detention centers all over the world in which innocent men and women are terrorized, tortured, raped or murdered by the soulless US-Zionist soldiers and agents. It reflects the brutality, barbarity and cruelty of the so-called civilized USA.

 

Many countries don't punish their millitary officials who do corrupt things.

 

 

At Guantanamo bay, innocent Muslim men and women, who are defending their countries against the US imperialism, are terrorized, tortured, raped or murdered by the soulless US-Zionist soldiers and agents. My country does not treat non-Muslims as animals. Non-Muslims have their right in my country. And we never desecrate the Bible nor the Torah. On the contrary, Bush and his American terrorists have no proofs to try them in any courts of law so Bush and his terrorists imprison them without trial. Hitler and Bush are twin brothers. And the US-Zionist soldiers and agents have desecrated the Holy Quran according to the media.

 

What country are you from?

Innocent Muslims? You mean individuals brainwashed in madrases that teach hatred and glorify killing. No, I hope very much that there aren't considered true Muslims or that makes Islam look bad.

 

 

Yes Muslims have their right to defend their countries against the US imperialism. Even French people fought the Nazi forces to liberate France and Americans fought the British to liberate USA. And the US regime emerges as the worst terrorist organization that attack, invade and occupy sovereign countries and terrorizing or massacring millions of innocent civilians.

 

None of this would happen if 9-11 didn't happen. Who are the first aggressors in this conflict? Who was on those planes?

 

 

Yes US soldiers are barbarians for raping innocent girls and women in Germany, Japan, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq etc after the 2nd World. Therefore the US army is a barbarian horde.

 

The Soviets acted like a barbarian horde when they invaded Afghanistan and killed millions of people and destroyed everything like the Russians did to Chechnya. America tries to build schools and facilities in Afghanistan for the new government and the people, but the Talivan keeps destroying them. They do not want the Afghan people to be educated, smart modern people.

 

 

israel should be wiped off the earth for it is established by Zionist terrorists through illegal, brutal, barbaric and sadistic methods. It also attack and terrorize Arab countries. Zionists have terrorized and massacred innocent Palestinian and Lebanese people. If the US regime had wiped the Nazi regime off the earth, I have my right to wipe israel off the earth so that Palestinian people may get their land back.

 

Do you mean that the the state of israel should be dismantled and ARabs rule over the Jews, or that all the Jews should be killed off? Or that they Jews should be deported to their various countries of origin?

 

About Lebanon, what do you think about Hezbollah firing missiles from people's houses in villages? Don't they have some blame for Lebonese people killed?

 

 

The secular Western countries have committed brutal war crimes against humanity. They massacred more than 6,500,000 people during the Napoleonic Wars, 10 million people during the 1st World War, 62 million people during the 2nd World War etc. Western countries truly protect their hypocrisy and freedom to wage wars, invade and occupy other secular countries and terrorize and massacre innocent people. Therefore secular countries are practising the rule of jungle.

 

At least Americans don't burn your flags, or riot everytime someone makes cartoons of our prophets, or names teddy bears after our prophets.

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Actually, religion IS (sometimes) the cause of oppression.

Being opressed is just a matter of perspective. There are many instances that theists are being opressed by non-religionists.

 

It's just that most religions define themselves as being unable to oppress.

Democracy also claims so.

 

Besides, these were not purposeful attempts to destroy innocent lives, not like what Alqaeda, millitias, and the Taliban were doing, or the 9-11 people were doing.

Phew, how comforting. As long as you do it so elegantly and sophisticatedly and with your uniforms, then you would never be the same as Al-Qaeda, even though your own media reported American purposeful attemtps at destroying villages full of civilians.

 

To relate back to Islam. Muslims wanting to establish Sharia as the state law of the land are begging for severely corrupted politics. I mean, just look at Iran and Sudan. I hope to God these aren't their ideal Islamic countries!

Your ideal American politics are not less corrupt than Iran's or Sudan's politics.

 

At Guantanamo bay, come on! These people are allowed Qurans. Is this treatment seen in your countries for other prisoners of other religions? Besides, if these people are released, they go right back fighting the US. What do you do with them?

This argument that says "come on they are allowed Qur'an" is so widely used by pro Guantanamo Bay people, that it makes think that the reason for the US government to allow it is to cut short those who disagree with Guantanamo Bay. I am thinking to capture and torture your civilians days and nights 24 hours, but I give them a bible to compensate for the torture and to protect myself from any criticism leveled against me.

 

You mean Iran? The leader of Iran said that israel should be wiped off the earth.

Sir, it is off the map, not off the Earth. And there is nothing wrong with wiping israel off the map.

 

I'm not saying that Western countries are perfect, but they truly protect religious freedoms.

Who said that Western countries are perfect. Btw, the West can learn a lot of things from my country about protecting religious freedoms.

 

Many countries don't punish their millitary officials who do corrupt things.

And what is the point? If I intend to kill B by using my soldier, then I'll do it. And then I get away from my crimes by punishing my own soldiers.

 

What country are you from?

Innocent Muslims? You mean individuals brainwashed in madrases that teach hatred and glorify killing. No, I hope very much that there aren't considered true Muslims or that makes Islam look bad.

What country are you to make such an ignorant statement?

 

Wassalam,

Y

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Innocent Muslims? You mean individuals brainwashed in madrases that teach hatred and glorify killing. No, I hope very much that there aren't considered true Muslims or that makes Islam look bad.

 

Muslims have their right to defend their countries against the US forces that are invading and occupying Muslim countries and terrorizing innocent Muslims. Even the Americans fought the British to liberate USA. French and Russian people fought the Nazi regime to liberate France and Russia respectively. Chinese fought Japanese forces to liberate China. History also tells us how ancient people fought invaders to liberate their countries/states. Your allegation above makes you look bad.

 

None of this would happen if 9-11 didn't happen. Who are the first aggressors in this conflict? Who was on those planes?

Please tell me who they were.

 

The Soviets acted like a barbarian horde when they invaded Afghanistan and killed millions of people and destroyed everything like the Russians did to Chechnya.

 

And now the US regime and its allies are acting like a barbarian horde. The US regime and its allies are invading Afghanistan and killing so many innocent Afghan people and destroying everything like the Russians did to Afghanistan and Chechnya.

 

America tries to build schools and facilities in Afghanistan for the new government and the people, but the Talivan keeps destroying them. They do not want the Afghan people to be educated, smart modern people.

 

Why don't you tell me how the US forces attack, invade and destroy Afghanistan? Why don't you tell me how the US forces use WMDs to destroy civilian targets in Afghanistan etc? Why don't you tell me how the US forces terrorize and massacre innocent Afghan people? Why don't you tell me how the US forces imprison Afghan people without trial and tortured them in Afghanistan, Guantanamao and other CIA secret centers?Afghan people are smart people who know that Christian crusaders and Christian puppets are occupying Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia etc.

 

Do you mean that the the state of israel should be dismantled and ARabs rule over the Jews, or that all the Jews should be killed off? Or that they Jews should be deported to their various countries of origin?

 

israel should be abolished because israel is an illegal state that is established by Zionist terrorists who rob Palestinian people of their land. After all robbery is a crime. The Zionist immigrants, who come after the 1st World War, should leave Palestine for good. The Jews who lived in Ottoman era should be allowed to live in Palestine. Palestinian people should be allowed to return to Palestine. The majority would determine the government of Palestine.

 

About Lebanon, what do you think about Hezbollah firing missiles from people's houses in villages? Don't they have some blame for Lebonese people killed?

 

The israeli regime of terror have been attacking, invading and terrorizing Lebanon since 1948 so you cannot blame Hezbollah for firing missiles into israel. Hezbollah is defending Lebanon against the Zionist imperialism. After all members of hezbollah are Lebanese people so they have their right to defend Lebanon against the brutal and barbaric israeli forces that massacre Lebanese and Palestinian babies, children, women, elderly people, unarmed men.

 

At least Americans don't burn your flags, or riot everytime someone makes cartoons of our prophets, or names teddy bears after our prophets.

 

Yeah Americans don't burn our flags or riot. Americans use bombers, fighter-bombers, tanks, artilleries, WMDs etc to attack and destroy civilian targets and terrorize and massacre millions of innocent foreigners in sovereign countries such as Germany, Japan, Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, Nicaragua, Panama etc.

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None of this would happen if 9-11 didn't happen. Who are the first aggressors in this conflict? Who was on those planes?

I wage war by scapegoating B, and then when people asked why did I wage war, I just said because B started all of this?

 

America tries to build schools and facilities in Afghanistan for the new government and the people, but the Talivan keeps destroying them. They do not want the Afghan people to be educated, smart modern people.

Sorry, but when did the US try to build schools and facilities in Afghanistan for the new government and the people? Since when the US become an angel?

 

Do you mean that the the state of israel should be dismantled and ARabs rule over the Jews, or that all the Jews should be killed off? Or that they Jews should be deported to their various countries of origin?

Yes, some Zionists should be deported back to their home in Europe. And election should be held involving Jews, Christians and Muslims. The new country should not be necessarily be built on Jewish beliefs like it is today.

 

About Lebanon, what do you think about Hezbollah firing missiles from people's houses in villages? Don't they have some blame for Lebonese people killed?

Sure, they have some blames. And then why were the bombs drop on the hospitals too? on the UN posts too? They were also firing missiles from there?

 

At least Americans don't burn your flags, or riot everytime someone makes cartoons of our prophets, or names teddy bears after our prophets.

And why do you think it is worse than US massacring of millions of people?

 

Wassalam,

Y

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Actually, religion IS (sometimes) the cause of oppression.

 

History tells us how the Russians who were communists (atheists/non-religionists) had terrorized and massacred millions of Muslims, Christians etc in Soviet Union. Chinese , who are communists (atheists/non-religionists), have terrorized and massacred millions of Buddhists, Muslims, Christians etc in China. Members of Khmer Rouge are atheists and they had terrorized and massacred millions Buddhists, Muslims, Christians etc in Cambodia. It seems to me that atheists are worse than Nazis.

Edited by wiseguy

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History tells us how the Russians who were communists (atheists/non-religionists) had terrorized and massacred millions of Muslims, Christians etc in Soviet Union. Chinese , who are communists (atheists/non-religionists), have terrorized and massacred millions of Buddhists, Muslims, Christians etc in China. Members of Khmer Rouge are atheists and they had terrorized and massacred millions Buddhists, Muslims, Christians etc in Cambodia. It seems to me that atheists are worse than Nazis.

 

Any ideology or religion that rules a society and declares if so and so doesn't conform to these beliefs is a traitor and dangerous and an infidel, that is oppressive. Omar's strict rules he imposed on non-Muslim communities are also very oppressive. Even today it's almost impossible for Christians to build new churches in Muslim ocuntries.

 

I wage war by scapegoating B, and then when people asked why did I wage war, I just said because B started all of this?

 

Anyone helping B is also an enemy, like how anti-israel people equally despise America, a huge ally of israel.

Why don't people burn flags of Turkey and attack them, when they are an israel ally to and much closer than America.

 

Muslims have their right to defend their countries against the US forces that are invading and occupying Muslim countries and terrorizing innocent Muslims. Even the Americans fought the British to liberate USA. French and Russian people fought the Nazi regime to liberate France and Russia respectively. Chinese fought Japanese forces to liberate China. History also tells us how ancient people fought invaders to liberate their countries/states. Your allegation above makes you look bad.

 

Do you know what is happening in Pashtun country? There are religious madrass centers where the children and being raised and taught to be Taliban, who take Islamic extremist to the next level in terms of violence and cruelty, and terrorist sponsoring.

 

 

 

Sorry, but when did the US try to build schools and facilities in Afghanistan for the new government and the people? Since when the US become an angel?

 

America does want to convince people it is not like Russia, a power hungry country that would kill millions for it's own goals. Russians had no sense of care or ethics for the Afghan people when they invaded, they just wanted more communists to rule. America wants to show the Afghan people that they want to leave the country in a better state, so long as the people are not supporting the Taliban, a dangerous radical group that supports Bin Laden.

 

Yes, some Zionists should be deported back to their home in Europe. And election should be held involving Jews, Christians and Muslims. The new country should not be necessarily be built on Jewish beliefs like it is today.

 

The only problem is that alot of revenge might be exacted on the Jews that remain and have little power.

Also, should Jerusalem be divided into three parts for the three Religions?

 

Please tell me who they were.

 

Muslim extremists who were instructed that to kill 1000's of innocent Americans is a glorious thing and they would have 70 virgins and greatness in Jannah.

 

 

The israeli regime of terror have been attacking, invading and terrorizing Lebanon since 1948 so you cannot blame Hezbollah for firing missiles into israel. Hezbollah is defending Lebanon against the Zionist imperialism. After all members of hezbollah are Lebanese people so they have their right to defend Lebanon against the brutal and barbaric israeli forces that massacre Lebanese and Palestinian babies, children, women, elderly people, unarmed men.

 

israel just released 450 Palestinian prisoners as an act of good will for the peace talks. I mean, steps are trying to be made by israel.

 

About Lebanon, why did Hezbollah set up missile firing canons in people's houses? israel would have no choice but to bomb villages! If Hezzbollah wants to fight israel, they should not have done so cowardly. They say it's honorable to die as suicide bombers and yet fight so cowardly.

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Any ideology or religion that rules a society and declares if so and so doesn't conform to these beliefs is a traitor and dangerous and an infidel, that is oppressive. Omar's strict rules he imposed on non-Muslim communities are also very oppressive. Even today it's almost impossible for Christians to build new churches in Muslim ocuntries.

 

Does Jesus teach you to lie and slander?It would be my pleasure to refute your allegation above.

 

The Treaty of `Umar

 

In 637, after a prolonged siege of Jerusalem, the Muslims finally entered the city peacefully following the signing of a treaty by the Patraich of Elya Al-Quds (i.e. Jerusalem) and Umar himself. Several years earlier, the Patriach had announced that he would not sign a treaty with anyone other than the Caliph himself. For this reason, `Umar personally came to Jerusalem after Muslims had established control of all the surrounding territory. According to both Muslim and Christian accounts, `Umar entered the city humbly, walking beside a donkey upon which his servant was sitting. He is said to have been given the keys to the city by the Orthodox Christian Patriarch Sophronius, after conducting the peace treaty known as the Treaty of Umar, the English translation of which is provided below:

 

“ In the name of Allah, the Most Merciful, the Beneficent.

This is what the slave of Allah, Umar b.Al-Khattab, the Amir of the believers, has offered the people of Illyaa’[1] of security granting them Amaan (protection) for their selves, their money, their churches, their children, their lowly and their innocent, and the remainder of their people.

 

Their churches are not to be taken, nor are they to be destroyed, nor are they to be degraded or belittled, neither are their crosses or their money, and they are not to be forced to change their religion, nor is any one of them to be harmed.

 

No Jews are to live with them in Illyaa’ and it is required of the people of Illyaa’ to pay the Jizya, like the people of the cities. It is also required of them to remove the Romans from the land; and whoever amongst the people of Illyaa’ that wishes to depart with their money together with the Romans, leaving their trading goods and children behind, then they selves, their trading goods and their children are secure until they reach their destination.

 

Upon what is in this book is the word of Allah, the covenant of His Messenger, of the Khulafaa’ and of the believers if they (the people of Illyaa’) gave what was required of them of Jizya.

 

The witnesses upon this were Khalid ibn Al-Walid, 'Amr ibn al-'As, Abdur Rahman bin Awf and Muawiyah ibn Abi Sufyan. Written and passed on the 15th year (after Hijrah)

Then Umar asked the Patriach to lead him to the place of the old Jewish Temple. Umar was shocked to find the site covered in rubbish, as the Romans had initiated the custom of using it as a dung heap. `Umar imemdiately knelt down immediately, and began to clear the area with his hands. When the Muslims saw what he was doing, they followed his example, and soon the entire area of al-Aqsa, approximately 35 acres, was cleaned up. Thereafter, commissioned the construction of a wooden Masjid on the southern end of the site, exactly where the present-day Masjid of Al-Aqsa stands. `Umar was then led to the sites of the Foundation Stone by a rabbi, Ka'ab al-Ahbar, who had converted to Islam. The rock was surrounded it by a fence, and several years later an Umayyad Khalif built the Dome of the Rock over the site.

 

Upon taking Jerusalem, `Umar demonstrated the utmost respect for members of the other faiths living in the city. For the first time in 500 years since their expulsion from the Holy Land, Jews were allowed to practice their religion freely and live in the vicinity of Jerusalem. According to the Encyclopedia Judaica, seventy Jewish families took up residence in the city. `Umar also agreed to several pacts, called the Umariyya Covenant, with the local Christian population, determining their rights and obligations under Muslim rule.

 

Anyone helping B is also an enemy, like how anti-israel people equally despise America, a huge ally of israel.

Why don't people burn flags of Turkey and attack them, when they are an israel ally to and much closer than America.

The US regime asked the Taliban government to surrender Osama to the US regime. When the Taliban government challenged the US regime to show concrete evidence to implicate Osama in the 9-11, the US regime failed to show any concrete evidence to support its baseless claim so the Taliban government rejected the US lies.

 

Do you know what is happening in Pashtun country? There are religious madrass centers where the children and being raised and taught to be Taliban, who take Islamic extremist to the next level in terms of violence and cruelty, and terrorist sponsoring.

History tells us how the American leaders provoked and incited Americans to fight the British in order to liberate USA. According to your so-called 'logic', the American leaders had taken American extremist to the next level in terms of violence and cruelty, and terrorist sponsoring.

 

All Muslims have their right to defend their countries against the US imperialism and the US forces and their allies that are attacking, invading, occupying and plundering Muslim countries and terrorizing and massacring innocent Muslims and desecrating the Holy Quran and Masjids in Guantanamoa, Iraq, Afghanistan etc. The US forces and their allies are a bunch of brutal and barbaric robbers, rapists, criminals, murderers and terrorists.

Edited by wiseguy

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America does want to convince people it is not like Russia, a power hungry country that would kill millions for it's own goals. Russians had no sense of care or ethics for the Afghan people when they invaded, they just wanted more communists to rule. America wants to show the Afghan people that they want to leave the country in a better state, so long as the people are not supporting the Taliban, a dangerous radical group that supports Bin Laden.

 

The US regime was behind the Soviet intervention in Afghanistan. In 1979, the US regime had formed and supported mujahideen groups in Afghanistan to overthrow the Afghan government that had good relationship with the Soviet Union. By sending Mujahideen groups into Afghanistan, the US regime hoped that the Soviet Union would intervene in Afghanistan. The Soviet Union took the US bait so the Russian forces invaded and occupied Afghanistan that led to Afghan-Soviet war that destroyed Afghanistan and so many innocent Afghan people and Russians died as a consequence of the US dirty strategy and deception.

 

Here is the evidence of the US dirty deception and strategy that destroy Afghanistan and Soviet Union:

 

"It was on 3 July 1979 , five months *before* the Soviets invaded Afghanistan, that president Carter signed the first directive for the secret support of the opposition against the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. This secret operation was an excellent idea. It lured the Russians into the Afghan trap, and you would like me to regret that? On the day when the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote president Carter, in essence: "We now have the opportunity to provide the USSR with their Viet Nam war." Indeed for ten years Moscow had to conduct a war that was intolerable for the regime, a conflict which involved the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet Empire." Source: Le Nouvel Observateur's Interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski, President Jimmy Carter's National Security Adviser. Published 15-21 January 1998. Translated by Jean Martineau

Edited by wiseguy

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The US regime was behind the Soviet intervention in Afghanistan. In 1979, the US regime had formed and supported mujahideen groups in Afghanistan to overthrow the Afghan government that had good relationship with the Soviet Union. By sending Mujahideen groups into Afghanistan, the US regime hoped that the Soviet Union would intervene in Afghanistan. The Soviet Union took the US bait so the Russian forces invaded and occupied Afghanistan that led to Afghan-Soviet war that destroyed Afghanistan and so many innocent Afghan people and Russians died as a consequence of the US dirty strategy and deception.

 

America supported mujadeen troops because the Russians invaded Afghanistan and yes they wanted the Russians to suffer humliating defeats. But there was a communist government party in Afghanistan and the Soviets wanted to make Afghanistan like neighboring USSR countries. So no, the Soviets and Americans hated one another, this was Cold War times. The Russians should have their flags burned, right.

 

 

All Muslims have their right to defend their countries against the US imperialism and the US forces and their allies that are attacking, invading, occupying and plundering Muslim countries and terrorizing and massacring innocent Muslims and desecrating the Holy Quran and Masjids in Guantanamoa, Iraq, Afghanistan etc. The US forces and their allies are a bunch of brutal and barbaric robbers, rapists, criminals, murderers and terrorists.

 

When why do the officials in Afghanistan and Iraq WANT the Americans to stay and help train their armies and give support? Sounds like they like Americans and want them to stay and help their countries more because they are good people who care about helping these countries.

 

 

It seems to me that you JCBelieve are a shameless slanderer. It would be my pleasure to refute your lies. Does Jesus teach you to lie and slander?

 

The Treaty of `Umar

 

I meant this Pact of Umar:

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetfordham.edu/halsall/source/pact-umar.html"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetfordham.edu/halsall/source/pact-umar.html[/url]

 

One of these rules is :

We shall not build, in our cities or in their neighborhood, new monasteries, Churches, convents, or monks' cells, nor shall we repair, by day or by night, such of them as fall in ruins or are situated in the quarters of the Muslims.

 

 

The US regime asked the Taliban government to surrender Osama to the US regime. When the Taliban government challenged the US regime to show concrete evidence to implicate Osama in the 9-11, the US regime failed to show any concrete evidence to support its baseless claim so the Taliban government rejected the US lies.

 

The Taliban were helping to train "terrorists" in camps. These guys were bad, it surprises me that you don't want to condemn them. They severely abused Afghans and imposed laws that were so strict they were never in their history under such strict laws.

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America supported mujadeen troops because the Russians invaded Afghanistan and yes they wanted the Russians to suffer humliating defeats. But there was a communist government party in Afghanistan and the Soviets wanted to make Afghanistan like neighboring USSR countries. So no, the Soviets and Americans hated one another, this was Cold War times. The Russians should have their flags burned, right.

 

"It was on 3 July 1979 , five months *before* the Soviets invaded Afghanistan, that president Carter signed the first directive for the secret support of the opposition against the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. This secret operation was an excellent idea. It lured the Russians into the Afghan trap, and you would like me to regret that? On the day when the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote president Carter, in essence: "We now have the opportunity to provide the USSR with their Viet Nam war." Indeed for ten years Moscow had to conduct a war that was intolerable for the regime, a conflict which involved the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet Empire." Source: Le Nouvel Observateur's Interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski, President Jimmy Carter's National Security Adviser. Published 15-21 January 1998. Translated by Jean Martineau

 

Therefore it was the US regime that used brutal deception and dirty strategy to lure the Soviets into Afghanistan that led to the destruction of Afghanistan and Soviet Union and millions of Afghan people and 15 000 Russians to die in the Afghan-Soviet war.

When why do the officials in Afghanistan and Iraq WANT the Americans to stay and help train their armies and give support? Sounds like they like Americans and want them to stay and help their countries more because they are good people who care about helping these countries.

 

During the 2nd World War, Quisling, after Norwegian fascist politician Vidkun Quisling who assisted Nazi Germany to conquer his own country. Vichy France, or the Vichy regime, was the government of France from July 1940 to August 1944. It succeeded the Third Republic. The "French state" (L'État Français), as it called itself in contrast with the "French Republic", was proclaimed by Marshal Philippe Pétain, following the military defeat of France by Nazi Germany during World War II, and the vote by the National Assembly on July 10, 1940, to grant extraordinary powers to Pétain, who held the title of "President of the Council" instead of President of France. Pétain headed the reactionary program of the so-called "Révolution nationale", aimed at "regenerating the Nation."

 

Therefore according to your allegation above, during the 2nd World War, the officials in Norway and France WANTED the Nazis to stay and help train their armies and give support. Sounds like they liked Nazis and want them to stay and help their countries more because they are good people who care about helping these countries. The fact is the people of Norway and France hate them and the Nazis very much.

 

The US puppet regimes in Afghanistan and Iraq want the Americans to stay in Afghanistan and Iraq because the US puppets know that the people of Afghanistan and Iraq will overthrow them as soon as the Americans leave Afghanistan and Iraq. Nobody love traitors such as President Hamid Karzai, Jalal Talabani and Nouri al-Maliki who are the puppets of the US regime.

 

The Taliban were helping to train "terrorists" in camps. These guys were bad, it surprises me that you don't want to condemn them. They severely abused Afghans and imposed laws that were so strict they were never in their history under such strict laws.

 

Taliban is the government of Afghanistan so Taliban has its right to defend Afghanistan against the illegal American and Nato invasion of Afghanistan. After all the US regime and its Nato allies have no right to overthrow the Afghan government. The US regime are helping to train American terrorists in the US camps. These American guys are worse, it surprises me that you don't want to condemn them. The American terrorists severely abuse Iraqi and Afghan people and abuse the Geneva Convention and the International Law. The American terrorists use WMDs to destroy civilian targets killing innocent Iraqi and Afghan people.

 

Does Jesus teach you to support the American genocide of innocent Iraqi and Afghan people? Does Jesus teach you to support the Zionist genocide of innocent Palestinian people?

Edited by wiseguy

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"It was on 3 July 1979 , five months *before* the Soviets invaded Afghanistan, that president Carter signed the first directive for the secret support of the opposition against the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. This secret operation was an excellent idea. It lured the Russians into the Afghan trap, and you would like me to regret that? On the day when the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote president Carter, in essence: "We now have the opportunity to provide the USSR with their Viet Nam war." Indeed for ten years Moscow had to conduct a war that was intolerable for the regime, a conflict which involved the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet Empire." Source: Le Nouvel Observateur's Interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski, President Jimmy Carter's National Security Adviser. Published 15-21 January 1998. Translated by Jean Martineau

 

Therefore it was the US regime that used brutal deception and dirty strategy to lure the Soviets into Afghanistan that led to the destruction of Afghanistan and Soviet Union and millions of Afghan people and 15 000 Russians to die in the Afghan-Soviet war.

 

It's a shame you would believe this, it is illogical compared to the real reasons I gave. You can't turn everything into anti-American rage, you know the Russians are not so perfect. What do you think about Chechnya right now? You think they must be poor people duped by America to do these things? I don't think so.

 

 

The US puppet regimes in Afghanistan and Iraq want the Americans to stay in Afghanistan and Iraq because the US puppets know that the people of Afghanistan and Iraq will overthrow them as soon as the Americans leave Afghanistan and Iraq. Nobody love traitors such as President Hamid Karzai, Jalal Talabani and Nouri al-Maliki who are the puppets of the US regime.

Taliban is the government of Afghanistan so Taliban has its right to defend Afghanistan against the illegal American and Nato invasion of Afghanistan. After all the US regime and its Nato allies have no right to overthrow the Afghan government. The US regime are helping to train American terrorists in the US camps. These American guys are worse, it surprises me that you don't want to condemn them. The American terrorists severely abuse Iraqi and Afghan people and abuse the Geneva Convention and the International Law. The American terrorists use WMDs to destroy civilian targets killing innocent Iraqi and Afghan people.

 

Again, why are Muslims in America not being killed and genocided? What you say does not make sense. Maybe you are not right on everything. America only supports israel because it's more democratic and a "buffer" against extremist Muslims and Iran. Political reasons, not anti-Palestinian reasons. America does wants to help the Peace process and wants to see more peace over there.

 

 

Does Jesus teach you to support the American genocide of innocent Iraqi and Afghan people? Does Jesus teach you to support the Zionist genocide of innocent Palestinian people?

 

If such things were happening, then no, but you must understand I don't believe all that stuff.

If the Zionists were killing and terrorizing Palestinians, then more reason why religion and state should not be the same. A Jewish state would want to exterminate all non-Jews, if you read the Old Testament, the Jews were genociding all kinds of people to purify their land. It may seem this way today with these things you showed me on the other thread, but then I see Hamas and Hezbollah instigating attacks, and you know what if israel is just trying to fight them off? It's hard for me to understand everything over there. You have boght into much anti-American propaganda that it is hard to believe what you say.

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