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Seperate Religion And State?

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The Taliban, by the way, had helped Bin Laden make those famous tapes where he explains his role in the 9-11 attacks. Those guys had the evidence and still didn't give him up.

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Anyway, back on topic ...

 

I see this question as impossible for Muslims to consider objectively, as their god and prophet have specifically told them that Islam is a political system as well as a religion. To deny it would be blasphemy.

 

Like so many things that Muslims pretend to discuss, it is based on irrational belief and a fear of hell, not argument, proof and logic. Muslims are not alone in this, of course, but they (currently) are the perveyors of the most nonsense in the world.

 

 

Regarding my earlier point that religions do (sometimes) oppress - it's telling that none of the angry responses actually deny this, they just do the very, very familiar "Yeah well, so does Teh West" cop-out. That is not actually an argument.

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You seem to be under the misguided impression that Islam is based on "nonsense" and that your own personal opinions and the opinions of people who are likeminded to you are not.

 

There is no such thing as "political Islam" and "personal Islam". There is only Islam, a way of life for all human beings, in all aspects of their lives. God created us not to live as we please, but to live as He commanded.

 

I would advice you not to throw around concepts of logic and rationality. What I view as being logical is entirely different from what you would define it as. Until we both agree on what the definition of logic is, there is no way you can begin to understand Islam.

 

Salam.

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Yes, Islam is a political system as well as a religion. And because Muslims are not allowed to question Islam, they are unable to argue about political issues such as the separation of Church and State. To do so would be blasphemous. In fact, as Muslims believe that the Koran contains all knowledge, and as they believe that to question the Koran is blasphemous, Muslims are not allowed to argue about anything if arguing involves (as it almost always does) hypothesising. No wonder they get so frustrated and violent so quickly.

 

While I agree that there might be different ways of viewing the world, there is (broadly, with quibbles among experts) no argument about what constitutes logic.

 

But give me your definition of logic, anyway.

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Islam is perfectly ok with seperating the church and state, because we have nothing to do with the church :sl: .

 

On a more serious note, the church as you understand it has nothing to do with our history.

Don't Import your assumptions about Europe and its results and apply it to something totally different . This is irrational.

 

Why should we separate Religion and State ?

because European Experience dictates so ?

and We should all strive to emulate the enlightened, civlized, progressive, blah blah blah .. ?

Isn't that what you are saying ?

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Yes, Islam is a political system as well as a religion.

 

No it isn't.

 

Islam simply encompasses all aspects of our lives. Once again, God did not create us to come up with our own rules. He created us to follow His rules.

 

When put like this, just how stupid would we have to be to question and change what God has decreed?

 

To do so would be blasphemous.

 

No. To do so would be utterly idiotic because it would only lead to trouble in the hereafter for the individual.

 

No wonder they get so frustrated and violent so quickly.

 

What exactly does refusing to do anything that involves blasphemy have to do with frustration and violence? It would be like me saying "waiting in traffic makes people frustrated enough to kill pets". There's absolutely no proof to suggest this.

 

While I agree that there might be different ways of viewing the world, there is (broadly, with quibbles among experts) no argument about what constitutes logic.

 

If I say "We are very close to the sun because it only takes 8 minutes for sunlight to reach us" and you say "No, the sun is actually very far because most of its heat doesn't fully impact us", which one of us would be using logic? Both. To say that it is close because of the rate at which sunlight reaches Earth is to use logic. To say that it is far because of how much of its heat reaches Earth is just as logical. What it all comes down to is opinion.

 

It is your opinion that Islam is not the true way of life. Perhaps it is also your opinion that God does not exist. But your logic to arrive at either conclusion is no better than my own logic.

 

I'm sure we're also drifting out of topic.

 

Salam.

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I meant this Pact of Umar:

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetfordham.edu/halsall/source/pact-umar.html"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetfordham.edu/halsall/source/pact-umar.html[/url]

 

One of these rules is :

We shall not build, in our cities or in their neighborhood, new monasteries, Churches, convents, or monks' cells, nor shall we repair, by day or by night, such of them as fall in ruins or are situated in the quarters of the Muslims.

 

The Pact (Covenant) of Umar (c. 717 A.D.) is a letter to the Umayyad caliph Umar II from the Christians a treaty between and the ahl al-kitab (Çåá ÇáßÊÇÈ) ("people of the Book") living on the lands newly conquered and colonized by Muslims. While the conditions of the Pact were authoritative, the level of enforcement varied, as shown by the existence of churches constructed long after the Muslim conquests which means Muslims tolerate Christians, Jews etc.

 

On the contrary, the Catholics of Spain seized all Masjids and turned them into churches after the Muslim Spain had fallen into Christian hands. The Catholics also forced Muslims, Jews and Protestants to convert to Christianity and terrorized and massacred or murdered Muslims and Jews who refused to convert to Christianity while forcing the rest of Muslims and Jews to leave Spain for Muslim countries and seizing their properties.

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bungalow2 ......Your allegation is false. The fact is Islam is the complete way of life so we Muslims have Islamic politic, Islamic cultures, Islamic social, Islamic justice, Islamic law etc so we don't need secularism. On the contrary,Christian priests had abused the state and Christians and non-Christians in Europe that forced Christians and non-Christians to reject Christian intervention in states by introducing secularism.

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It's a shame you would believe this, it is illogical compared to the real reasons I gave. You can't turn everything into anti-American rage, you know the Russians are not so perfect. What do you think about Chechnya right now? You think they must be poor people duped by America to do these things? I don't think so.

 

I have shown you the evidence straight from the horse's mouth that proves the US regime caused the Afghan-Soviet War.

 

Again, why are Muslims in America not being killed and genocided? What you say does not make sense.

 

Fishes in aquarium are being fed while fishes in the sea are being hunted, killed and eaten.

 

Maybe you are not right on everything. America only supports israel because it's more democratic and a "buffer" against extremist Muslims and Iran. Political reasons, not anti-Palestinian reasons.

 

israel is established by Zionist terrorists who rob Palestinian people of their land and terrorize, massacre and force Palestinian people to leave Palestine for Arab countries. Therefore, the US regime is supporting Zionist terrorists and criminals.

 

America does wants to help the Peace process and wants to see more peace over there.

 

The US regime helps the Zionist terrorists to get more land and israel becomes bigger through the so-called 'U.S.-brokered peace agreements' while Palestinian people lose more land and Palestine becomes smaller. Therefore, the US regime is abetting the israeli regime of terror in robbing Palestinian people by tricking Palestinian people to give more land to israel through false promises.

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*sigh* yes, Islam is "a complete system", therefore Islam is a political system as well as a religious system. And my point stands - it is not possible for Muslims to debate modes of government because they have no choice but to accept the mode they believe their god dictates. And on a broader scale, it is theoretically not possible for Muslims to debate anything because their "complete system" is supposedly perfect and also because to question this "complete system" would be blasphemy. Of course in reality there is no consensus nor any means of achieving consensus on just what the rules actually are, so you have constant squabbling and sects.

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Islam encourages Muslims to acquire knowledge for the betterment of all mankind.

 

For example:

 

The Holy Quran 3:190-191

 

"Behold! in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the alternation of night and day,- there are indeed Signs for men of understanding,- Men who celebrate the praises of Allah, standing, sitting, and lying down on their sides, and contemplate the (wonders of) creation in the heavens and the earth, (With the thought): "Our Lord! not for naught Hast Thou created (all) this! Glory to Thee! Give us salvation from the penalty of the Fire."

 

The Holy Quran 96: 1-5

 

Proclaim! (or read!) in the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, Who created- Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood: Proclaim! And thy Lord is Most Bountiful,- He Who taught (the use of) the pen,- Taught man that which he knew not.

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Actually, the first verse could quite easily be seen as advocating passive contemplation, a la Buddhism; the second has nothing to do with gaining knowledge except in the negtive sense that we have learned that people are NOT formed out of a clot of congealed blood, and the Koran is thus wrong.

 

But you do have a problem, ######. If (as someone else posted) Islam gives rules for every second of everyone's life, then there is absolutely no room for questioning, hypothesizing or even enguiry as to the benefits of the rules.

 

I think the sudden change of the rule about alcohol (which, by the way, proves beyond doubt that the Koran is not infallible) shows this beautifully. Before the change Muslims would have argued to the death that alcohol was permitted; after the change they would argue to the death that it isn't. How can you have any self respect in that sort of system?

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hypothesizing or even enguiry as to the benefits of the rules.

This is your ignorance, Hundreds of books have been written by classical Muslim scholars on the topic . Just because you don't know it , doesn't mean it does not exist

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Actually, the first verse could quite easily be seen as advocating passive contemplation, a la Buddhism; the second has nothing to do with gaining knowledge

 

In the first verse, God asks all human beings to study/learn and do research and in the second verse God says that it was God who taught (the use of) the pen and taught man that which he knew not.

 

except in the negtive sense that we have learned that people are NOT formed out of a clot of congealed blood, and the Koran is thus wrong.

 

You are wrong for making the wild allegation above. Your baseless allegation reflects your ignorance.

 

The Quran on Human Embryonic Development:

 

Source: (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetIslam-guide(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/frm-ch1-1-a.htm"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetIslam-guide(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/frm-ch1-1-a.htm[/url]

 

In the Holy Quran, God speaks about the stages of man’s embryonic development:

 

We created man from an extract of clay. Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed. Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot), then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance)... 1 (Quran, 23:12-14)

 

Literally, the Arabic word alaqah has three meanings: (1) leech, (2) suspended thing, and (3) blood clot.

 

In comparing a leech to an embryo in the alaqah stage, we find similarity between the two2 as we can see in figure 1. Also, the embryo at this stage obtains nourishment from the blood of the mother, similar to the leech, which feeds on the blood of others.3

 

######you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetIslam-guide(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/ch1-1-a-img1.jpg[/img]

 

Figure 1: Drawings illustrating the similarities in appearance between a leech and a human embryo at the alaqah stage. (Leech drawing from Human Development as Described in the Quran and Sunnah, Moore and others, p. 37, modified from Integrated Principles of Zoology, Hickman and others. Embryo drawing from The Developing Human, Moore and Persaud, 5th ed., p. 73.)

 

The second meaning of the word alaqah is “suspended thing.” This is what we can see in figures 2 and 3, the suspension of the embryo, during the alaqah stage, in the womb of the mother.

 

######you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetIslam-guide(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/ch1-1-a-img2.jpg[/img]

 

Figure 2: We can see in this diagram the suspension of an embryo during the alaqah stage in the womb (uterus) of the mother. (The Developing Human, Moore and Persaud, 5th ed., p. 66.) (Click on the image to enlarge it.)

 

######you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetIslam-guide(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/ch1-1-a-img3.jpg[/img]

 

Figure 3: In this photomicrograph, we can see the suspension of an embryo (marked B ) during the alaqah stage (about 15 days old) in the womb of the mother. The actual size of the embryo is about 0.6 mm. (The Developing Human, Moore, 3rd ed., p. 66, from Histology, Leeson and Leeson.)

 

The third meaning of the word alaqah is “blood clot.” We find that the external appearance of the embryo and its sacs during the alaqah stage is similar to that of a blood clot. This is due to the presence of relatively large amounts of blood present in the embryo during this stage4 (see figure 4). Also during this stage, the blood in the embryo does not circulate until the end of the third week.5 Thus, the embryo at this stage is like a clot of blood.

 

######you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetIslam-guide(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/ch1-1-a-img4.jpg[/img]

 

Figure 4: Diagram of the primitive cardiovascular system in an embryo during the alaqah stage. The external appearance of the embryo and its sacs is similar to that of a blood clot, due to the presence of relatively large amounts of blood present in the embryo. (The Developing Human, Moore, 5th ed., p. 65.) (Click on the image to enlarge it.)

 

So the three meanings of the word alaqah correspond accurately to the descriptions of the embryo at the alaqah stage.

 

The next stage mentioned in the verse is the mudghah stage. The Arabic word mudghah means “chewed substance.” If one were to take a piece of gum and chew it in his or her mouth and then compare it with an embryo at the mudghah stage, we would conclude that the embryo at the mudghah stage acquires the appearance of a chewed substance. This is because of the somites at the back of the embryo that “somewhat resemble teethmarks in a chewed substance.”6 (see figures 5 and 6).

 

######you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetIslam-guide(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/ch1-1-a-img5.jpg[/img]

 

Figure 5: Photograph of an embryo at the mudghah stage (28 days old). The embryo at this stage acquires the appearance of a chewed substance, because the somites at the back of the embryo somewhat resemble teeth marks in a chewed substance. The actual size of the embryo is 4 mm. (The Developing Human, Moore and Persaud, 5th ed., p. 82, from Professor Hideo Nishimura, Kyoto University, Kyoto, Japan.)

 

######you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetIslam-guide(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/ch1-1-a-img6.jpg[/img]

 

Figure 6: When comparing the appearance of an embryo at the mudghah stage with a piece of gum that has been chewed, we find similarity between the two.

A ) Drawing of an embryo at the mudghah stage. We can see here the somites at the back of the embryo that look like teeth marks. (The Developing Human, Moore and Persaud, 5th ed., p. 79.)

B ) Photograph of a piece of gum that has been chewed.

(Click on the image to enlarge it.)

 

How could Muhammad have possibly known all this 1400 years ago, when scientists have only recently discovered this using advanced equipment and powerful microscopes which did not exist at that time? Hamm and Leeuwenhoek were the first scientists to observe human sperm cells (spermatozoa) using an improved microscope in 1677 (more than 1000 years after Muhammad ). They mistakenly thought that the sperm cell contained a miniature preformed human being that grew when it was deposited in the female genital tract.7

 

Professor Emeritus Keith L. Moore8 is one of the world’s most prominent scientists in the fields of anatomy and embryology and is the author of the book entitled The Developing Human, which has been translated into eight languages. This book is a scientific reference work and was chosen by a special committee in the United States as the best book authored by one person. Dr. Keith Moore is Professor Emeritus of Anatomy and Cell Biology at the University of Toronto, Toronto, Canada. There, he was Associate Dean of Basic Sciences at the Faculty of Medicine and for 8 years was the Chairman of the Department of Anatomy. In 1984, he received the most distinguished award presented in the field of anatomy in Canada, the J.C.B. Grant Award from the Canadian Association of Anatomists. He has directed many international associations, such as the Canadian and American Association of Anatomists and the Council of the Union of Biological Sciences.

 

In 1981, during the Seventh Medical Conference in Dammam, Saudi Arabia, Professor Moore said: “It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the Quran about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, because almost all of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of God.”9 ( To view the RealPlayer video of this comment click here (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetIslam-guide(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/video/moore-1.ram"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetIslam-guide(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/video/moore-1.ram[/url] ).

 

Consequently, Professor Moore was asked the following question: “Does this mean that you believe that the Quran is the word of God?” He replied: “I find no difficulty in accepting this.”10

 

During one conference, Professor Moore stated: “....Because the staging of human embryos is complex, owing to the continuous process of change during development, it is proposed that a new system of classification could be developed using the terms mentioned in the Quran and Sunnah (what Muhammad said, did, or approved of). The proposed system is simple, comprehensive, and conforms with present embryological knowledge. The intensive studies of the Quran and hadeeth (reliably transmitted reports by the Prophet Muhammad’s companions of what he said, did, or approved of) in the last four years have revealed a system for classifying human embryos that is amazing since it was recorded in the seventh century A.D. Although Aristotle, the founder of the science of embryology, realized that chick embryos developed in stages from his studies of hen’s eggs in the fourth century B.C., he did not give any details about these stages. As far as it is known from the history of embryology, little was known about the staging and classification of human embryos until the twentieth century. For this reason, the descriptions of the human embryo in the Quran cannot be based on scientific knowledge in the seventh century. The only reasonable conclusion is: these descriptions were revealed to Muhammad from God. He could not have known such details because he was an illiterate man with absolutely no scientific training.”11 (View the RealPlayer video of this comment (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetIslam-guide(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/video/moore-2.ram"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetIslam-guide(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/video/moore-2.ram[/url] ).

_____________________________

 

Footnotes:

 

(1) Please note that what is between these special brackets ... in this web site is only a translation of the meaning of the Quran. It is not the Quran itself, which is in Arabic.

 

(2) The Developing Human, Moore and Persaud, 5th ed., p. 8.

 

(3) Human Development as Described in the Quran and Sunnah, Moore and others, p. 36.

 

(4) Human Development as Described in the Quran and Sunnah, Moore and others, pp. 37-38.

 

(5) The Developing Human, Moore and Persaud, 5th ed., p. 65.

 

(6) The Developing Human, Moore and Persaud, 5th ed., p. 8.

 

(7) The Developing Human, Moore and Persaud, 5th ed., p. 9.

 

(8) Note: The occupations of all the scientists mentioned in this web site were last updated in 1997.

 

(9) The reference for this saying is This is the Truth (videotape). For a copy of this videotape, please visit this page.

 

(10) This is the Truth (videotape).

 

(11) This is the Truth (videotape). For a copy, see footnote no. 9.

Edited by wiseguy

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But you do have a problem, ######. If (as someone else posted) Islam gives rules for every second of everyone's life, then there is absolutely no room for questioning, hypothesizing or even enguiry as to the benefits of the rules.

 

Islam is the complete way of life so we Muslims don't need secularism. Islam encourages us Muslims to study and discuss religious issues and worldly knowledge. After all during the Islamic Golden Ages, Muslims contributed science, mathematics, physics, biology, medicine, pharmacy, engineering, social study, geography etc to the world when Europeans were living in the Dark Ages of Europe. In fact there were many Europeans went to study at Islamic universities in Muslim countries and they brought the knowledge back to Europe.

 

Islam's Contribution to the World and Western Civilization:

 

 

I think the sudden change of the rule about alcohol (which, by the way, proves beyond doubt that the Koran is not infallible) shows this beautifully. Before the change Muslims would have argued to the death that alcohol was permitted; after the change they would argue to the death that it isn't. How can you have any self respect in that sort of system?

 

The fact is Islam forbids alcoholic drinks. I challenge you to show me any Quranic verses that allow Muslims to drink alcoholic drinks.

Edited by wiseguy

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Umm, you have shown a verse saying that humans develop from "a clot of congealed blood", and you have shown a verse saying that humans are formed out of "an extract of clay". Which of these utterly contradictory (and both wildly incorrect) ideas does the Koran really mean?

 

######, Islam does not allow free investigstion and argument because it does not allow you to decide to no longer be a Muslim. It's like saying that someone in jail is free because they are allowed to discuss the outside world.

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*sigh* yes, Islam is "a complete system", therefore Islam is a political system as well as a religious system. And my point stands - it is not possible for Muslims to debate modes of government because they have no choice but to accept the mode they believe their god dictates. And on a broader scale, it is theoretically not possible for Muslims to debate anything because their "complete system" is supposedly perfect and also because to question this "complete system" would be blasphemy. Of course in reality there is no consensus nor any means of achieving consensus on just what the rules actually are, so you have constant squabbling and sects.

 

You still do not understand. Islam is not " a political system as well as a religious system". Islam is a way of life, a way that our creator has told us to live. There is no "religious Islam" or "political Islam". There is only Islam, which Muslims follow in all aspects of their lives.

 

You keep talking about "Muslims can't debate their system", but you avoided my point. If God told you to live a certain way, would you do the opposite? Just answer this simple question.

 

Salam.

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Umm, you have shown a verse saying that humans develop from "a clot of congealed blood", and you have shown a verse saying that humans are formed out of "an extract of clay". Which of these utterly contradictory (and both wildly incorrect) ideas does the Koran really mean?

 

######, Islam does not allow free investigstion and argument because it does not allow you to decide to no longer be a Muslim. It's like saying that someone in jail is free because they are allowed to discuss the outside world.

 

You bungalow2 are wrong for making the wild allegation above. Your baseless allegation reflects your ignorance.

 

Here is the Quranic verse that reject your allegation:

 

Allah says regarding the stages the fetus goes through:

 

"And indeed We created man (Adam) out of an extract of clay (water and earth). Thereafter We made him (the offspring of Adam) as a Nutfah (mixed drops of the male and female sexual discharge) (and lodged it) in a safe lodging (womb of the woman). Then We made the Nutfah into a clot (a piece of thick coagulated blood), then We made the clot into a little lump of flesh, then We made out of that lump of flesh bones, then We clothed the bones with flesh, and then We brought it forth as another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators. After that, surely, you will die. Then [again], surely, you will be resurrected on the Day of Resurrection." (The Holy Quran 23:12-16)

 

The stages a human passes through are:

 

Extract of Clay: Adam the father of mankind, was created from clay. This verse falsifies the theory of evolution and proves that man is a distinct creation. Mankind did not evolve from other species.

 

Mixed sperm: In this stage male and female discharge mix in the womb, the result of which the egg may become fertilized or die by the will of Allah. If the egg becomes fertilized the first stages of creation would commence. Allah says: Indeed, We created man from a sperm-drop mixture that We may try him; and We made him hearing and seeing.) (The Holy Quran 76:2)

 

The Beginning of the Human Development

######you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetthekeytoislam(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/en/assets/images/g_beginning_human_developme.jpg[/img]

 

######you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetthekeytoislam(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/en/assets/images/g_fertilization_1.jpg[/img]

 

a. Diagrams illustrating fertilization , the procession of events beginning when the sperm contacts the secondary oocyte's plasma membrane and ending with the intermingling of maternal and paternal and paternal chromosomes at metaphase of the first mitotic division of the zygote. A, secondary oocyte surrounded by several sperms, two of which have penetrated the corona radiate.

b. The pronuclei are fusing. (Taken from Dr. Keith Moore, The Developing Human, pg. 34 - 7th edition)

If the semen fails to fertilize the ovum, it would be cast out of the womb along with it, but if it fertilizes the egg and creates a zygote, it would cling to the side of the womb in the form of a blastula. If Allah wills that it cling in the womb, it would move onto the Alaqah stage (i.e. a leech like, suspending thing).

 

Allah says:

 

O people, if you should be in doubt about the Resurrection, then [consider that] indeed, We created you from dust, then from a sperm drop, then from a clinging clot, and then from a lump of flesh, formed and unformed - that We may show you. And We settle in the wombs whom We will for a specified term, then We bring you out as a child, and then [We develop you] that you may reach your [time of] maturity. And among you is he who is taken in [early] death, and among you is he who is returned to the most decrepit [old] age so that he knows, after [once having] knowledge, nothing. And you see the earth barren, but when We send down upon it rain, it quivers and swells and grows [something] of every beautiful kind.) (The Holy Quran 22:5)

 

######you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetthekeytoislam(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/en/assets/images/g_fertilization_2.jpg[/img]

 

Blood Clot/Clinging Thing: It is described as such, since it clings to the womb; in a manner similar to a leech which feeds off the blood of other creatures.

 

######you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetthekeytoislam(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/en/assets/images/g_embryo_leech.jpg[/img]

 

Lateral view of an embryo (24 to 25 days). B. Drawings illustrating the similarities between a leech and a human embryo at the 'Alaqah' stage. (Taken from Dr. (Keith Moore, The Developing Human, pg. 71 - 7th edition

 

Reference: (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetthekeytoislam(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/en/scientific-explanations/human-embryonic-phases.shtml"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetthekeytoislam(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/en/scientific...ic-phases.shtml[/url]

 

Islam encourages us Muslims to study Islam, science, mathematics, engineering, medicine etc and use the knowledge to understand Islam better and for the betterment of all mankind. Seeking knowledge is obligatory in Islam for every Muslim, man and woman. The main sources of Islam, the Qur'an and the Sunnah (Prophet Muhammad's traditions), encourage Muslims to seek knowledge and be scholars, since this is the best way for people to know Allah (God), to appreciate His wondrous creations and be thankful for them.

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I think the sudden change of the rule about alcohol (which, by the way, proves beyond doubt that the Koran is not infallible) shows this beautifully. Before the change Muslims would have argued to the death that alcohol was permitted; after the change they would argue to the death that it isn't. How can you have any self respect in that sort of system?

 

I repeat my challenge for you bungalow2! The fact is Islam forbids alcoholic drinks. I challenge you to show me any Quranic verses that allow Muslims to drink alcoholic drinks. It seems to me that you have failed to show me any Quranic verses to support your baseless allegation above.

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I think the sudden change of the rule about alcohol (which, by the way, proves beyond doubt that the Koran is not infallible) shows this beautifully. Before the change Muslims would have argued to the death that alcohol was permitted; after the change they would argue to the death that it isn't. How can you have any self respect in that sort of system?

 

Riiight.

 

With new societies, civilizations and people come new laws. The laws that governed Noah's people for example are not identical to those that govern us. Why? Because God recognizes that people change, ideals change, new problems arise, and each of these must be dealt with accordingly.

 

You claim that the "sudden change of the rule about alcohol" proves that the "Koran" is not infallible. Well then, allow me to counter that by saying the rising problems in this world that center around alcoholism and alcohol-related violence and deaths is proof that humanity is not unchanging.

 

During earlier times, was alcoholism a problem? Was there such a wide-spread demand for alcoholic drinks? Was it a constant and every-growing threat to families and the lives of both alcoholics and innocent people? Uh, no. The fact that millions upon millions of people die on a yearly basis due to fatal car crashes and alcohol-related diseases and illnesses should be enough to get it banned.

 

And by the way, there is no "sudden change of the rule about alcohol" that "proves beyond doubt the Koran is not infallible". The Qur'an never allowed or encouraged people to drink alcohol. The only verses that mention alcohol are the ones that speak against it. Therefore your theory is completely false.

 

Umm, you have shown a verse saying that humans develop from "a clot of congealed blood", and you have shown a verse saying that humans are formed out of "an extract of clay". Which of these utterly contradictory (and both wildly incorrect) ideas does the Koran really mean?

 

What exactly do you mean by your comment that the Qur'an says human beings develop from a clot of congealed blood? Are you saying that in one of the stages of human development, the embryo does not resemble a clot?

 

Also, you shouldn't leap to conclusions. The clay part refers to Adam, who himself was created out of clay. There is no contradiction; there is simply your imagination running wild and unrestrained.

 

Salam.

Edited by Redeem

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Islamic Laws are meant to prevent people from encroaching on other's freedoms. And It includes preventing people from Alcohol , because the evil it causes is worse than any amount of Good in it, Its effect on the society is well known.

Except that banning alcohol is ineffective. It leads to black market trading, which ultimately becomes unregulated. There would be a crisis similar to the problem with drugs in many countries.

 

How many of your countries allow people to walk naked through out the country ?

Indeed, you cannot do that. The basis for that is not however grounded in religion. It is public standards of decency.

 

Isn't concesual Incest still criminal in almost western liberal countries?

It is.

 

How about taking drugs because I want to?

You can in some countries.

 

The secular Western countries have committed brutal war crimes against humanity. They massacred more than 6,500,000 people during the Napoleonic Wars, 10 million people during the 1st World War, 62 million people during the 2nd World War etc.

This is why it is futile to speak of the West as a unified group of people. What do you mean when you say 'West'? Do you mean countries geographically Western or Secular nations? You cannot label about half of the world. You speak also as if the 'East' of the world is wholly innocent of crimes across the world.

 

Being opressed is just a matter of perspective. There are many instances that theists are being opressed by non-religionists.

Yes. Can you cite any?

 

History tells us how the Russians who were communists (atheists/non-religionists) had terrorized and massacred millions of Muslims, Christians etc in Soviet Union. Chinese , who are communists (atheists/non-religionists), have terrorized and massacred millions of Buddhists, Muslims, Christians etc in China. Members of Khmer Rouge are atheists and they had terrorized and massacred millions Buddhists, Muslims, Christians etc in Cambodia. It seems to me that atheists are worse than Nazis.

So you are now likening Atheism to Communism are you? Let us be clear is. Communism implies Atheism. Atheism does not imply Communism.

 

I resent your unsubstantiated generalisations.

 

Why should we separate Religion and State ?

because European Experience dictates so ?

Because Secularism is preferable to Theocracy.

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I think the sudden change of the rule about alcohol (which, by the way, proves beyond doubt that the Koran is not infallible) shows this beautifully. Before the change Muslims would have argued to the death that alcohol was permitted; after the change they would argue to the death that it isn't. How can you have any self respect in that sort of system?

I never knew that Islamic rules on alcohol have changed. When did it happen?

 

Wassalam,

Y

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With new societies, civilizations and people come new laws. The laws that governed Noah's people for example are not identical to those that govern us. Why? Because God recognizes that people change, ideals change, new problems arise, and each of these must be dealt with accordingly.

 

Wow! So Islam is able to change Allah's laws to suit the circumstances? I would be much, much more favourably disposed towards Islam if that was the case but I suspect that no other Muslims on this forum will agree with you.

 

But if it was the case, what limits on the changeability of laws are there? "Ideals change", you say. Would the ideals of (say) the gay community in San Francisco or Sydney now be recognised as valid by Islam? Would the ideals of wpmen wanting to be Caliphs? Etc. You have opened a whole new vision of Islam!

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Yasnov, I've read several times on this forum about Mohammed suddenly declaring that alcohol was now illegal, and the good citiizens of Mecca who had been drinking forced themselves to vomit.

 

If alcohol was legal then suddenly illegal, your prophet (and presumably thus your god) has changed his mind. Hardly "infallible" etc.

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Wow! So Islam is able to change Allah's laws to suit the circumstances? I would be much, much more favourably disposed towards Islam if that was the case but I suspect that no other Muslims on this forum will agree with you.

 

Good God. I hope you're joking.

 

Islam is the laws of God. Now how does Islam, the laws of God, change the laws of God? Your statement is ridiculous and absurd beyond comprehension.

 

But if it was the case, what limits on the changeability of laws are there? "Ideals change", you say. Would the ideals of (say) the gay community in San Francisco or Sydney now be recognised as valid by Islam? Would the ideals of wpmen wanting to be Caliphs? Etc. You have opened a whole new vision of Islam!

 

Pathetic attempt to twist my words. The limits of the "changeability of laws" is God. He sent every prophet with a specific message for specific group of people and taught them the way that they were supposed to live.

 

What are our laws and "ideals"? The same ones that were taught to prophet Muhammad. Homosexuality will always be rejected of human beings, it was an ugly sin from the dawn of time and will continue to be so until the day of judgement. Nice try (no, I'm actually being sarcastic. Horrible try).

 

If alcohol was legal then suddenly illegal, your prophet (and presumably thus your god) has changed his mind. Hardly "infallible" etc.

 

It seems that every single refutation of your absurdity sails right over your head, and you are too fixated on what you wish to see and to believe that you cannot grasp simple concepts. Now, please do explain to us how allowing those who can control their alcohol to drink, and banning it from a world that is obsessed with alcohol, is "not infallible"?

 

If my father does not let me ride a 2 wheel bicycle when I was below 10 years old and then allowed me to ride one after I turned 10, does that make him fallible? Is there absolutely no wisdom behind his actions? Is it not because he knew that I was too young to ride one before I turned 10, and that I could potentially hurt myself if I didn't do as he said? Or did he simply make a mistake or error (as the word fallible suggests) and changed his mind when I grew older?

 

Use rationality and logic instead of spouting nonsense. It also helps to understand even the most basic concepts of Islam, rather than jumping to your own ridiculous conclusions.

 

Salam.

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