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Seperate Religion And State?

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So, ######, you don't believe the story that one day Mohammed announced that henceforth alcohol was sinful, so the good citizens of Mecca who had been drinking made themselves vomit?

 

I repeat - one day alcohol was permissable, the next it wasn't. All on the basis of "God said so".

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You have ignored the point he made about CONSENT

and

The argument is that anything an adult CHOOSES to do is permissable, as long as it doesn't harm anyone else.

 

What if two adults chose to have CONSENSUAL sex in the streets ...why should u stop it ?

What about walking around with absolutely no clothes in a busy shopping mall.

Your principles necessitate than any individual should be allowed to do so and this is why one of the posters above have no problems with drugs and incest. We despise this principle and short-sightedness

 

 

God said one thing one day and somthing else the next.

You are being stubborn.

Islam as of today is complete and will not change for ever and It has not for the last 1400+ years

The laws of Islam were implemented in a step by step manner so that's its easy on the people .

Edited by al-malibari

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Now lets us compare the crime statistics between USA that has separated religion from state and Saudi Arabia that practise some of Islamic law:

 

SAUDI CRIME STATS:

 

Type of crime *number of cases * [ranking]

 

Assaults 4,705 [39th of 57]

Car thefts 5,573 [31st of 55]

Murders 105 [48th of 62]

Murders (per capita) 0.00397456 per 1,000 people [61st of 62]

Prisoners 23,720 prisoners [40th of 164]

Rapes 87 [52nd of 65]

Rapes (per capita) 0.00329321 per 1,000 people [65th of 65]

 

AMERICAN CRIME STATISTICS:

 

Assaults 2,238,480 [1st of 57]

Car thefts 1,147,300 [1st of 55]

Drug offences 560.1 per 100,000 people [4th of 34]

Murders 12,658 [6th of 62]

Murders (per capita) 0.042802 per 1,000 people [24th of 62]

Murders with firearms 8,259 [4th of 32]

Murders with firearms (per capita) 0.0279271 per 1,000 people [8th of 32]

Rapes 89,110 [1st of 65]

Rapes (per capita) 0.301318 per 1,000 people [9th of 65]

Total crimes 23,677,800 [1st of 60]

 

It seems to me that Muslim countries are safer to live in than secular countries like USA. The number of crimes can be eliminated or minimized if Muslim countries practise all the Islamic law.

 

SOURCES: Seventh United Nations Survey of Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice Systems, covering the period 1998 - 2000 (United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, Centre for International Crime Prevention); International Centre for Prison Studies; Mr Lennox-Boyd's reports to the House of Commons.

Edited by wiseguy

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What if two adults chose to have CONSENSUAL sex in the streets ...why should u stop it ?

What about walking around with absolutely no clothes in a busy shopping mall.

Your principles necessitate than any individual should be allowed to do so and this is why one of the posters above have no problems with drugs and incest. We despise this principle and short-sightedness

 

I personally have no problem at all with consensual sex anywhere people want to have it, and I have even fewer problems with nudity. If it wasn't that there are far more compelling problems facing the world, I think that promotion of nudity would be a very worthy cause. By the way, many saddhus in India go about completely naked, and this doesn't seem to cause any crises.

 

I agree that incest between consensual partners is perfectly OK, but I do wonder if, given the power structures of family relationships, true consent could often be given.

 

######, how about choosing a much less religious society than the US as a basis for comparison? Scandinavian or Antipodean countries, for example.

 

Islam as of today is complete and will not change for ever and It has not for the last 1400+ years

The laws of Islam were implemented in a step by step manner so that's its easy on the people .

 

I repeat, one day alcohol was permitted, and the next day it wasn't. How do you know that god doesn't have a long-term plan to make gay marriage permissable?

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The US regime legalize alcoholic drinks and the consequence is the alcoholic drinks become medical and social problems:

 

A. Alcohol/drug problems are 2nd most common mental disorders, involving between 6% to 7% of adults. In adult males, they rank first at 8% to 10%. (NIMH, 1984.) 1 in 7 adults in USA are alcoholic or problem drinkers. Only 3% of alcoholics are on skid row

 

B. Comorbidity of Alcoholism and Other Mental Disorders (Kessler, 1994, '97):

 

14% of US population is highly comorbid for substance abuse and serious mental illness 37% of alcohol abusers & 53% of drug abusers have at least 1 other mental illness).

 

78% of men & 86% of women with alc. dependence in the NCS had at least one other lifetime psychiatric disorder; in 63% this preceded the onset of alcoholism (NCS, '97). 25% to 50% of suicides involve alcohol (Frances ,'87); as do 20% of Emergency Room Visits Depressed alcoholics are at higher risk for suicide than non-alcoholic depressed patients.

 

More than 50% of younger alcoholics report regular, heavy polysubstance abuse.

 

C. 43% of US adults report exposure to alcoholism in their families.

 

D. Medical Problems: 3rd ranking cause of death in USA., after Cancer & Heart Disease; 100,000 alcohol related "premature" deaths per year; average 15 year reduction in life span.

 

The fact above reflect a failure of a secular country to protect its citizens.

 

Source: (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetmedical-library(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/journals4a/alcoholism.htm"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetmedical-library(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/journals4a/alcoholism.htm[/url]

 

On the contrary, Saudi Arabia bans alcoholic drinks so the effect of alcoholic drinks on its citizens is minimal.

Edited by wiseguy

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You Whittle are avoiding my question. Please read my challenge for you above!

Edited by wiseguy

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So, ######, you don't believe the story that one day Mohammed announced that henceforth alcohol was sinful, so the good citizens of Mecca who had been drinking made themselves vomit?

 

I repeat - one day alcohol was permissable, the next it wasn't. All on the basis of "God said so".

 

You are avoiding my question. Please read my challenge for you above! I challenge you to show me any Quranic verses that support your baseless allegation that God change His mind on alcoholic drinks.

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How do you know that God won't suddenly come out and say that homosexuality is OK as long as you don't do it while praying?

 

This is how I know....

 

Surathul Maida Chapter 5 verse 4

 

"..............This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion........"

 

How we know that this message will be there ...

 

Answer

Surathul Hijr chapter 15 verse 9

9. We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).

 

 

Please ask some mature questions ....

 

Religion is not a toy infront of us ..... Its time for you to think seriously....

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I challenge you to show me any Quranic verses that support your baseless allegation that God change His mind on alcoholic drinks.

 

Sorry, mate, I don't know the Koran. I do know that one day alcohol was permitted and the next day it wasn't.If god didn't change his mind, how can that have happened? And if god changed his mind once, why can't he do it again?

 

Vishah, as god changed the rules about alcohol, how do you know he won't change other rules? And why is this treating religion like a toy? I think it's a delusion, not a toy.

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You Whittle should not make any baseless allegations against Islam and Muslims since you don't know Islam and the Holy Quran. Allah is the All-Wise and All-Knowing so He will not change His mind for He knows best.

Edited by wiseguy

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:sl:/Greetings

 

Whittle, it'd be useful if you could provide the source for your information. You have mentioned that you don't know the Qur'an, yet appear to "know" something about alcohol with regards to the Prophet (pbuh)'s time? This has no basis in fact, hence please provide the source for your information.

 

The Qur'an is the fixed word of God and cannot be altered. Please bring forth one change in the laws as set by Allah that had taken place after the 23 years of revelation? Can you do that for me?

 

I'd like you to read the following very carefully, and I hope you come to terms with your query:

 

The Gradual Prohibition of Alcohol in Islam by Bassam Zawadi

 

Allah did not send down all the laws at one time. The Quran was sent down over a period of 23 years. In the first 13 years of Mecca, none of these laws were sent down. As a matter of fact, if you analyze the Meccan Surahs, they all talk about Tawheed, Shirk, Day of Judgment, and Hell, Heaven etc. This was done in order to first build up the faith of the believers. Then in Madina, the laws were sent down. This is to teach us that people change gradually and not just overnight. This is the wisdom that Muslims even apply today. That if there is a sinner and wishes to turn back to God, he doesn’t conform to all the of laws and quit all the sins he does over night. His mind would eventually pop and lose hope of ever changing. But a person is to change gradually.

 

Drinking was a part of the lives of the people at that time and Allah in his divine wisdom had them quit gradually. This was Allah’s plan the whole time. But if Allah were to completely prohibit drinking all at once, it would have been very difficult for them to abide by that law immediately. This simply shows Allah’s mercy and consideration for his creation.

 

The gradual prohibition came in 3 verses in the following order:

 

Surah 2:219

 

They ask you about intoxicants and games of chance. Say: In both of them there is a great sin and means of profit for men, and their sin is greater than their profit. And they ask you as to what they should spend. Say: What you can spare. Thus does Allah make clear to you the communications, that you may ponder

 

Then....

 

Surah 4:43

 

O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say.....

 

Then....

 

Surah 5:90

 

O ye who believe ! wine and the game of chance and idols and divining arrows are only the abomination of Satan's handiwork. So shun each one of them that you may prosper.

 

Muslims fail to realize how unfair this gradual progression truly is for others. After all, neither Muslim scholars nor those seeking to implement Islamic law will allow for the gradual abandonment of intoxicants. Anyone converting to Islam must immediately forsake all consumption of intoxicants since those verses which allowed for drinking have been abrogated by the outright prohibition of alcoholic drinks. Where is the fairness in that? Why was it permitted for the first generation of Muslims to slowly come off of drinking whereas all subsequent generations of converts must not drink at all, even if they may happen to be addicted to alcohol and might find it hard to just give it up instantaneously?

 

The answer to that is very simple. You have to understand that the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) came alone as one man. He was bringing a revolution and he was on his own to help bring these people to the straight path. These people needed to slowly change. They needed to change spiritually first before they were to get themselves ready for the more physical laws. However, in today's society you have over 1.5 billion Muslims. If some one converts to Islam, he already has such a huge society filled with Muslims who are willing to support him in his struggle to join Islam, unlike the case when the Prophet first came to preach the Message and he was on his own.

 

I hope this helps

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I do know that one day alcohol was permitted and the next day it wasn't.

 

Before going further, I want to ask you a few questions

 

If you are truthful what evidence can you show, to say that it was PERMITTED, and then it was made unlawful?

 

Please show ur evidence before going to a further discussion.

 

Dear brothers and sisters, let him show his proof and wait until he responds to this post....

 

Salam

Edited by vishah

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No, it's your world view that is wholly unprovable and entirely subjective. And trust me, you do not want to get into an argument about fairness, and lack of it, in western states.

We're talking about Secularism as a concept.

 

Whose ethics? Yours?

Not mine. That is not my decision.

 

In the first place? Where is this "first place"?

They never had the right to murder or rape anyone.

 

Also, you really shouldn't speak of the benefits of others and society when you consider it someone's right to kill another human being while they're on drugs or alcohol.

Except I didn't say that now, did I?

 

I'm pretty sure that violence and crime are things the government protects against (or at least tries to). And why should drugs and alcohol be any different? Why shouldn't we protected from people who are careless enough to get uninhibited to the point where they are dangerous?

I suspect we actually do. Rehabilitation. It is just we do not know who is going to be careless enough to become dangerous.

 

Nice strawman.

 

I'm pretty sure that the scenario of a drug/alcohol free world would apply to any and all lands where Islam is heavily enforced. Can the same be said for America and other Europe countries besides Holland? Can you guarantee that a world full of drugs wouldn't impact society as deeply as alcohol did the U.S?

No.

 

Sounds to me like someone would be upset that they can't have their way. You accuse God of being a fascist when your words make you just as egotistical, if not more.

How is God not at all fascist when he demands humanity do X on pain of Y?

 

And I do not believe the ridiculous claim that God would be sympathetic to those who completely reject Him and who associate their well-being and success with others besides Him.

Presume person X. He is a nice person. He does good in life and offers a lot to his community. He does not believe in a God.

 

Person X in this scenario disbelieves in God not for ethical reasons but purely on the basis that he or she sees lack of evidence concerning the existence of God. He has heard of Islam and many other beliefs but he remains unconvinced. God putting Person X to hell for such would be essentially putting him to hell for getting his information wrong.

 

Sincerity doesn't make someone right. But it makes them honest. Should a Person X who sincerely disbelieves in God but acts morally righteous and values virtue be damned to the hellfire for all eternity or otherwise? What makes punishing them at all right let alone for eternity?

 

If that is the case, then you believe that you have the western right to propagate your beliefs on others, peacefully or not.

I belief I have the right to assert my beliefs.

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Whats next concensual intercourse with animals should be legalized ?

We are incapable of recognising whether an animal can consent.

 

This is what secular liberalism leads to and this is exactly why we DESPISE it from the very bottom of our heart.

Except it does not necessarily lead to that.

 

So you are afraid because it threatens your lifestyle ?

It would negate me to a second class citizen.

 

Consider us the same replace Atheist with Muslim, and Islamic with Secular Liberalist

How are you oppressed under Secular Liberalism?

 

So you admit Secularism mandates religions confirm to its principles.

Yes.

 

Do you believe that there is oppression unless religion has the power to influence law?

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Visha, if one day it was permitted to be intoxicated (note, not just drink alcohol but actually be intoxicated) except at prayer, and the next it as not permitted to even drink alcohol in tiny amounts, I'd say that the rules had changed, wouldn't you?

 

Surah 4:43

 

O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say.....

 

Surah 5:90

 

O ye who believe ! wine and the game of chance and idols and divining arrows are only the abomination of Satan's handiwork.

 

Essentially, the excuse that Muslims would not have obeyed the law if it was introduced suddenly is saying that Mohammed/God used an "end justifies the means" strategy of allowing sin for the future good.

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Surah 4:43 doesn't say that it is permitted to be intoxicated. In fact Muslims are not permitted to pray if they are intoxicated. And we see that Surah 5:90 supports Surah 4:43 that it is not permitted to drink alcohol. Therefore, you Whittle have insulted your own brain by making baseless allegation above.

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Essentially, the excuse that Muslims would not have obeyed the law if it was introduced suddenly is saying that Mohammed/God used an "end justifies the means" strategy of allowing sin for the future good.

 

You are slandering Islam again. I challenge you to show me any Quranic verses that allow sin for the future good.

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Skavau, we can go on and on arguing about our conflicting beliefs, but I have a feeling that neither of us is willing to change our stances. And because you weren't really twisting the meanings of the Qur'an and Islam like Whittle here is doing, then I will leave you to your opinions.

 

I just want to say one thing thoug. If God had left us to govern ourselves in any way that we please, then the only forms of government that I would support are the same ones that you do. But I don't believe that this is the case. And it's impossible for me to feel otherwise.

 

Redeem, as your god changed his mind about the permissability of alcohol, you really cannot argue about the dangers of alcohol being a reason for its banning.

 

You did not answer my question, allow me to repeat it for you.

 

If a father does not let his children to ride a bicycle (2 wheeled) until they're older and then allows them to ride one after that, is he "changing his mind"? Is he fallible? Did he make a mistake by not allowing them to ride the bicycle when they were too young and then realize his error and change his mind? Or was he wise enough to know that it was dangerous for them when they were younger?

 

The point of my post? Is knowing when to allow people to do something and when not to, being fallible?

 

I'd like to see you try to argue that the father should have handed a huge bike over to his 2 year old for fear of being blamed for "changing his mind".

 

Oh and by the way, "my god" will never change His mind again. So your point is stupid.

 

Salam.

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A comparison between Muslim countries and secular countries

 

Gun Statistics

 

Gun Violence

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetwagv(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/gun-violence.php"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetwagv(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/gun-violence.php[/url]

 

The United States has by far the highest rate of firearms death compared to any other industrialized nation. (Harvard Injury Control Research Center, Harvard School of Public Health. "Racial Disparities and Firearm Deaths Among Youth.")

 

The rate of firearm homicide in the United States is 19 times higher than that of 35 other high-income countries. (Krug EG, Powell KE, Dahlberg LL. Firearm-related deaths in the United States and 35 other high- and upper-middle-income countries. International Journal of Epidemiology. 1998; 27: 214-21.)

 

Firearm injuries are the second leading cause of injury death in the U.S., and have killed more than 28,000 Americans each year since 1972. (CDC, National Center for Health Statistics, 2004.)

 

In 2004, 29,569 people were killed by guns in America- 81 people a day- including 16,750 suicides; 11,624 homicides; and 649 unintentional or accidental shootings. (WISQARS, Injury Mortality Reports. National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, Centers for Disease Control. Available at: (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10_sy.html.)"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10_sy.html.)[/url]

 

About 3% of firearm fatalities in 2001 were unintentional, claiming the lives of 802 people and disproportionately affecting males. (Frattarloi S, Webster DW, Teret S. Unintentional Gun Injuries, Firearm Design, and Prevention: What We Know, What We Need to Know, and What Can Be Done. Journal of Urban Health. 2002; 79:49-59.)

 

California's gun homicide rate remains high: 1730 gun homicides in 2004 (4.8 per 100,000 populations). (Crime in California 2004, CA Dept. of Justice).

 

About two-thirds of all homicides in the state are committed with handguns. (Homicide in California 2003, CA Dept. of Justice.)

 

Now lets us compare the crime statistics between USA that has separated religion from state and Saudi Arabia that practise some of Islamic law:

 

AMERICAN CRIME STATISTICS:

 

Assaults 2,238,480 [1st of 57]

Car thefts 1,147,300 [1st of 55]

Drug offences 560.1 per 100,000 people [4th of 34]

Murders 12,658 [6th of 62]

Murders (per capita) 0.042802 per 1,000 people [24th of 62]

Murders with firearms 8,259 [4th of 32]

Murders with firearms (per capita) 0.0279271 per 1,000 people [8th of 32]

Rapes 89,110 [1st of 65]

Rapes (per capita) 0.301318 per 1,000 people [9th of 65]

Total crimes 23,677,800 [1st of 60]

 

SAUDI CRIME STATS:

 

Type of crime *number of cases * [ranking]

 

Assaults 4,705 [39th of 57]

Car thefts 5,573 [31st of 55]

Murders 105 [48th of 62]

Murders (per capita) 0.00397456 per 1,000 people [61st of 62]

Prisoners 23,720 prisoners [40th of 164]

Rapes 87 [52nd of 65]

Rapes (per capita) 0.00329321 per 1,000 people [65th of 65]

 

SOURCES: Seventh United Nations Survey of Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice Systems, covering the period 1998 - 2000 (United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, Centre for International Crime Prevention); International Centre for Prison Studies; Mr Lennox-Boyd's reports to the House of Commons.

 

The US regime legalize alcoholic drinks and the consequence is the alcoholic drinks become medical and social problems:

 

A. Alcohol/drug problems are 2nd most common mental disorders, involving between 6% to 7% of adults. In adult males, they rank first at 8% to 10%. (NIMH, 1984.) 1 in 7 adults in USA are alcoholic or problem drinkers. Only 3% of alcoholics are on skid row

 

B. Comorbidity of Alcoholism and Other Mental Disorders (Kessler, 1994, '97):

 

14% of US population is highly comorbid for substance abuse and serious mental illness 37% of alcohol abusers & 53% of drug abusers have at least 1 other mental illness).

 

78% of men & 86% of women with alc. dependence in the NCS had at least one other lifetime psychiatric disorder; in 63% this preceded the onset of alcoholism (NCS, '97). 25% to 50% of suicides involve alcohol (Frances ,'87); as do 20% of Emergency Room Visits Depressed alcoholics are at higher risk for suicide than non-alcoholic depressed patients.

 

More than 50% of younger alcoholics report regular, heavy polysubstance abuse.

 

C. 43% of US adults report exposure to alcoholism in their families.

 

D. Medical Problems: 3rd ranking cause of death in USA., after Cancer & Heart Disease; 100,000 alcohol related "premature" deaths per year; average 15 year reduction in life span.

 

Source for the information above: (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetmedical-library(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/journals4a/alcoholism.htm"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetmedical-library(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/journals4a/alcoholism.htm[/url]

 

A 2001 report estimates that medium and high consumption of alcohol led to 75,754 deaths in the USA. Low consumption has some beneficial effects so a net 59,180 deaths were attributed to alcohol (Source: Alcohol-Attributable Deaths Report, United States 2001). Alcohol has also been linked to cancer. "3.6% of all cancer cases worldwide are related to alcohol drinking, resulting in 3.5% of all cancer deaths" Alcohol is also a potentially addictive substance to a large percentage of people. Source: Burden of alcohol-related cancer substantial, Reuters Health August 3, 2006). It seems to me that by legalizing alcohols, the US regime has failed to save its own citizens.

 

On the contrary, some Muslim countries have banned alcoholic drinks so the effect of alcoholic drinks on their citizens is minimal:

 

Saudi Arabia completely bans the production, importation or consumption of alcohol and imposes strict penalties on those violating the ban, including weeks to months of imprisonment, and possible lashes, as does Kuwait. During the Gulf War in 1991, the Coalition banned its troops in Saudi Arabia from drinking alcohol in order to show respect for local beliefs.

 

Qatar bans the importation of alcohol and it is a punishable offense to drink alcohol or be drunk in public. Offenders may incur a prison sentence or deportation. Alcohol is, however, available at licensed hotel restaurants and bars, and expatriates living in Qatar can obtain alcohol on a permit system.

 

The United Arab Emirates restricts the purchase of alcohol from a liquor store to non-Muslim foreigners who have residence permits and who have an Interior Ministry liquor license. However bars, clubs, and other establishments with liquor licenses do not face the same restrictions. Alcohol was first permitted in Bahrain, known to be the most progressive Persian Gulf state and the earliest to prosper, popular with those crossing the causeway from Saudi Arabia.

 

Non-Muslims may bring small quantities of alcohol into Brunei for personal consumption.

 

Iran began restricting alcohol consumption and production soon after the 1979 Revolution, with harsh penalties meted out for violations of the law. However, there is widespread violation of the law. Officially recognized non-Muslim minorities are allowed to produce alcoholic beverages for their own private consumption and for religious rites such as the Eucharist.

 

Alcohol was banned in Afghanistan during the rule of the Taliban. In the wake of the ousting from power of the Taliban, the ban was lifted for foreigners, who can buy alcohol in certain shops on presentation of their passport to prove they are foreigners.

 

Libya bans the import, sale and consumption of alcohol, with heavy penalties for offenders.

 

Tunisia has a selective ban on alcohol products other than wine, with consumption and sale being allowed in special zones or bars "for tourists" and in big cities [3]. Wine, however, is widely available. Morocco prohibits the sale of alcohol during Ramadan [4]

 

Sudan has banned all alcohol consumption and extends serious penalties to offenders.

 

Source: (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Prohibition#Middle_East.2C_North_Africa.2C_and_CenAsia"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Prohibition#M...nd_Central_Asia[/url]

 

It seems to me that secular countries have failed to protect their citizens when they legalize alcoholic drinks, drugs, guns etc. The secular countries also separate religion from the states that causes many immoral people to commit crimes against humanity in secular countries. It seems to me that Muslim countries are safer to live in than secular countries like USA. The number of crimes can be eliminated or minimized if Muslim countries practise all the Islamic law.

Edited by wiseguy

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Now lets us compare Crime Statistics of Muslim countries and secular countries > Rapes (per capita) (most recent) by country:

 

SOURCE: Seventh United Nations Survey of Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice Systems, covering the period 1998 - 2000 (United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, Centre for International Crime Prevention)

 

Rank Countries Amount (top to bottom)

#1 South Africa: 1.19538 per 1,000 people

#2 Seychelles: 0.788294 per 1,000 people

#3 Australia: 0.777999 per 1,000 people

#4 Montserrat: 0.749384 per 1,000 people

#5 Canada: 0.733089 per 1,000 people

#6 Jamaica: 0.476608 per 1,000 people

#7 Zimbabwe: 0.457775 per 1,000 people

#8 Dominica: 0.34768 per 1,000 people

#9 United States: 0.301318 per 1,000 people

#10 Iceland: 0.246009 per 1,000 people

#11 Papua New Guinea: 0.233544 per 1,000 people

#12 New Zealand: 0.213383 per 1,000 people

#13 United Kingdom: 0.142172 per 1,000 people

#14 Spain: 0.140403 per 1,000 people

#15 France: 0.139442 per 1,000 people

#16 Korea, South: 0.12621 per 1,000 people

#17 Mexico: 0.122981 per 1,000 people

#18 Norway: 0.120836 per 1,000 people

#19 Costa Rica: 0.118277 per 1,000 people

#20 Venezuela: 0.115507 per 1,000 people

#21 Finland: 0.110856 per 1,000 people

#22 Netherlands: 0.100445 per 1,000 people

#23 Denmark: 0.0914948 per 1,000 people

#24 Germany: 0.0909731 per 1,000 people

#25 Bulgaria: 0.0795973 per 1,000 people

#26 Chile: 0.0782179 per 1,000 people

#27 Thailand: 0.0626305 per 1,000 people

#28 Kyrgyzstan: 0.0623785 per 1,000 people

#29 Poland: 0.062218 per 1,000 people

#30 Sri Lanka: 0.0599053 per 1,000 people

#31 Hungary: 0.0588588 per 1,000 people

#32 Estonia: 0.0547637 per 1,000 people

#33 Ireland: 0.0542829 per 1,000 people

#34 Switzerland: 0.0539458 per 1,000 people

#35 Belarus: 0.0514563 per 1,000 people

#36 Uruguay: 0.0512295 per 1,000 people

#37 Lithuania: 0.0508757 per 1,000 people

#38 Malaysia: 0.0505156 per 1,000 people

#39 Romania: 0.0497089 per 1,000 people

#40 Czech Republic: 0.0488234 per 1,000 people

#41 Russia: 0.0486543 per 1,000 people

#42 Latvia: 0.0454148 per 1,000 people

#43 Moldova: 0.0448934 per 1,000 people

#44 Colombia: 0.0433254 per 1,000 people

#45 Slovenia: 0.0427648 per 1,000 people

#46 Italy: 0.0402045 per 1,000 people

#47 Portugal: 0.0364376 per 1,000 people

#48 Tunisia: 0.0331514 per 1,000 people

#49 Zambia: 0.0266383 per 1,000 people

#50 Ukraine: 0.0244909 per 1,000 people

#51 Slovakia: 0.0237525 per 1,000 people

#52 Mauritius: 0.0219334 per 1,000 people

#53 Turkey: 0.0180876 per 1,000 people

#54 Japan: 0.017737 per 1,000 people

#55 Hong Kong: 0.0150746 per 1,000 people

#56 India: 0.0143187 per 1,000 people

#57 Qatar: 0.0139042 per 1,000 people

#58 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 0.0132029 per 1,000 people

#59 Greece: 0.0106862 per 1,000 people

#60 Georgia: 0.0100492 per 1,000 people

#61 Armenia: 0.00938652 per 1,000 people

#62 Indonesia: 0.00567003 per 1,000 people

#63 Yemen: 0.0038597 per 1,000 people

#64 Azerbaijan: 0.00379171 per 1,000 people

#65 Saudi Arabia: 0.00329321 per 1,000 people

 

We find that Muslim countries are safer than the secular countries for women to live in. [using large font size is not allowed]

Edited by wiseguy

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###### please be a bit more careful when you blindly C&P - the post above does not say what stats are being displayed.

 

Redeem - so why can't we assume that god is forbidding nudity for now because some people (nortably Muslim men, if you speak to female world travellers about the countries where indecent touching most commonly occurs) cannot handle it, but in time, when the old superstitions are swept away, god will allow it? That's an exact analogy with your bicycle one, and with your explanation of god changing his mind about alcohol

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That's an exact analogy with your bicycle on

 

LOL~!

 

if your an Atheist go here (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=119332&hl="]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=119332&hl=[/url]

 

and i will help you with this problem your facing sister :sl:

 

insha-Allah you will see the truth soon.

insha-Allah

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Redeem - so why can't we assume that god is forbidding nudity for now because some people (nortably Muslim men, if you speak to female world travellers about the countries where indecent touching most commonly occurs) cannot handle it, but in time, when the old superstitions are swept away, god will allow it? That's an exact analogy with your bicycle one, and with your explanation of god changing his mind about alcohol

 

Why are we not allowed to walk around stark naked? Because nudity itself is a sin, regardless of what it might or might not cause. There are parts of the human body that are considered awrah, which means that they are not MEANT to be exposed. If sexual desires between the genders ceased to exist, do you think that would make nudity less indecent and barbaric? Wrong.

 

Secondly, you keep saying "changing his mind". Now let me ask you, how does a being who knows the past and the future, change His mind? To answer for you, it is impossible. If I make plans today to go to work tomorrow and then to stay home the day after, am I "changing my mind" when the day after arrives? Uh, no. I'm acting out my original plan.

 

You need to stop using the word "changing" to apply to God. He knew even before He created the universe that alcohol would be allowed for some, and disallowed for others.

 

Thirdly, you continue trying to avoid my question, mostly because you know I'm right. Allow me to write it in bold in case you missed it the last 2 times.

If a father does not let his children to ride a bicycle until they're older and then allows them to ride one after that, is he "changing his mind"? Is he fallible? Did he make a mistake by not allowing them to ride the bicycle when they were too young and then realize his error and change his mind? Or was he wise enough to know that it was dangerous for them when they were younger?

 

The point of my post? Is knowing when to allow people to do something and when not to, being fallible?

 

I'd like to see you try to argue that the father should have handed a huge bike over to his 2 year old for fear of being blamed for "changing his mind".

 

Salam.

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