Jump to content
Islamic Forum
JCBeliever

Seperate Religion And State?

Recommended Posts

Skavau, we can go on and on arguing about our conflicting beliefs, but I have a feeling that neither of us is willing to change our stances.

This is the internet. Since when has an argument had the desired effect? I never expected you to change your stance and honestly never expected to be convinced.

 

I just want to say one thing thoug. If God had left us to govern ourselves in any way that we please, then the only forms of government that I would support are the same ones that you do. But I don't believe that this is the case. And it's impossible for me to feel otherwise.

I understand that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PropellerAds
This is the internet. Since when has an argument had the desired effect? I never expected you to change your stance and honestly never expected to be convinced.

 

I think we've both stated our opinions, and have argued over it. Any more arguments would be rather redundant and repetitive. But if there's another topic that comes up, I'd be more than happy to get into that as well.

 

Salam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Why are we not allowed to walk around stark naked? Because nudity itself is a sin, regardless of what it might or might not cause. There are parts of the human body that are considered awrah, which means that they are not MEANT to be exposed. If sexual desires between the genders ceased to exist, do you think that would make nudity less indecent and barbaric? Wrong.

 

But, but, god changed the rules about alcohol, why might he not change the rules about nudity? I am making the point that your so-called ethics rest entirely on your understanding of what god says, not on any logic. Therefore, if the god can change the rules (as he did with alcohol) you have absolutely no certainly that your so-called ethics will be the same tomorrow as they are today. You have made your conduct dependent on the whims of a supernatural being. That isn't an ethical system.

 

You can't have it both ways - you can't argue that Islamic laws are rational, but then ultimately base them on "God said so". they are either based on reason or they aren;t.

 

And so, back to the topic, it makes for a very unpleasant society if these completely arbitrary laws are the basis for the legal and ethical systems. I loke my laws and ethics to be based on reason, not the whims of an imaginary supernatural being.

 

I'd agree with your bicycle analogy if it actually applied to the way we're told god operates. But it doesn't. Anthropomorphising the motives of an infinite being just doesn't work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I had to stop reading at the word "changed" again. Do you actually read the posts, or do you intentionally skip lines and comments as you please? I hope this is the case, otherwise it would mean that you don't know or understand half of what is actually said.

 

Do you, or do you not know the definition of the phrase "change of mind"? Judging by your deluded words, I'm guessing that would be a no.

 

Changing one's mind means going against choices previously made. It involves having second thoughts, and realizing another alternative to the one that you had originally planned.

 

Let me say it simply for you. It is impossible for someone to change their mind unless they abandon a plan that they hadn't previously thought or planned to abandon. God knew and had planned out every event that would happen in this universe long before creation. You. Are. Wrong.

 

why might he not change the rules about nudity?

 

There you go again. I can't read a sentence without wondering again if you have the capabilities to understand what is said.

 

Nudity, on its own, is a sin. Nudity would never be allowed, why? Because while nudity is not dangerous and life-threatening in the way that alcohol is, it is indecent and barbaric.

 

Nudity is prohibited entirely for the reason that it is nudity. Alcohol is prohibited because of its harmful effects. You are comparing apples and oranges, and you don't even seem to be smart enough to realize it.

 

Also, here is something else that you've carelessly neglected to learn. Prophet Muhammad was the last prophet of Allah. God will never bring another law concerning anything, not even alcohol. Drill this into your brain.

 

That isn't an ethical system.

 

In one breath you say that it is an unethical decision and then in the next you say you love your laws to be based on reason. Try not to dig your own grave. Ethics and logic neither define one another, nor do they have any correlation.

 

Secondly, it's hilarious that you are attempting to bring in ethics into this discussion. You telling me that something is unethical would be like Hitler telling someone not to be racist.

 

I love my laws and ethics to be based on reason, not the whims of an imaginary supernatural being.

 

You love your laws to be based on your selective reading and picking of what pleases you.

 

blah blah blah bicycle analogy blah blah I don't know the answer blah blah

 

You have no valid argument against my example and are thus going in circles to avoid answering directly. How typical. If you disagree, then do tell me how fallible a wise father would be, and what your reasoning is behind it.

 

actually applied to the way we're told god operates.

 

So let me get this straight. You, the atheist, decide how God operates? You, the atheist, basing this decision off of what you have been told, can make rulings on whether or not we can know what God's motives are? Oh wow, consider me convinced! What a remarkable counter-argument!

 

Do you even know how ridiculous what you're saying is? You don't believe in God, ergo how can you believe in anything you're told by other atheists concerning how He might operate? Who is teaching you this nonsense?

 

Anthropomorphising the motives of an infinite being just doesn't work.

 

Atheists thinking that they know God better than those who follow Him just doesn't work.

 

And by the way, please continue making comments such as "imaginary supernatural being". It does well to reinforce just how narrow-minded and self-centered atheists like you are.

 

Salam.

Edited by Redeem

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello everyone, I have come to this forum because I live in a city with many Muslims and have Muslim friends and collegues. I have found that the more religious a Muslim is the less intouch with reality he or she becomes. From seeing perfect morals where questionable morality is on display to claiming the koran is perfect in every way when it quite obviously is not. This mindset stretches to history, the more religious many Muslims become the more they try to whitewash history and claim that pre Islamic Arabia was lost in barbarity and uneducated ingnorance, they then go on to claim the scientific discoveries of the Greeks as revelations of the Koran even though these Greeks discoveries predate Islam by centuries. I will start a thread to debate the Islamic rewritting of history and the claim the the Koran is scientific elsewhere but in the meantime I noticed ###### was displaying a very skewed and ignorant view of history.

 

 

Now I'm no fan of Isreal and I think the mesianic settlers should be forcibly removed from Palestinian land and if they will not go peacefully I don't care if they die defending their illegal settlements. They are religious fundamentalists who are almost as bad as Bin Laden and co but ###### talks about this conflict as if he is either ignorant of the history of this conflict and blind to the complexity of the situation in the middle east. Most likely I think he is blinded by a sense of them and us, good (Muslim) and bad (Jew) this would explain his lack of clarity on this matter.

 

He claimed that "israel should be wiped off the earth for it is established by Zionist terrorists through illegal, brutal, barbaric and sadistic methods. It also attack and terrorize Arab countries. Zionists have terrorized and massacred innocent Palestinian and Lebanese people. If the US regime had wiped the Nazi regime off the earth, I have my right to wipe israel off the earth so that Palestinian people may get their land back."

 

Now not only is he demanding that Isreal should be wiped out which implies he is an advocate of genocide he implies that the Isreali state is akin to the Nazi war machine. None of this has any basis in reality.

 

Yes Isreal was established by terrorism but no the Stern Gang where not as bad as the Islamic terrorists of today.

 

Lets look at this without partisan eyes, who has killed the most Palestinians, the Isreali's or the Arab nations? Who has killed the most palestinians? The Kuwaiti's, the Lebanese, the Jordanians. Do you know about Black September? Why do you do not hate Jordanians for Black September, You do not hate the Syrians for the 56 day long siege of the Palestinian refugee camp in 1976 in which the Syrian army left over 3000 Palestinians dead. Why do you not hate the Kuwaiti's for the mass killings of Palestinians in the wake of the ousting of Sadams troops?

 

Why do you only talk of Isreal, why in Muslim lands are Palestinians in camps living as second class citizens? why do you not attack these Muslim countries for their refusal to give the Palestinians rights? when persecuted Arab Jews are welcomed with open arms to Isreal? What of the Arab Jews? Why do they flee from Muslim lands to Isreal? What of Arab Christians, why do they flee to Isreal and the west? What of all the Muslims who flee to the UK, USA, Sweden, Holland etc Many of them are fleeing because of Muslim opression.

 

 

This conflict is complicated and some things Isreal does are wrong but sometimes the cruelty of Muslims surpass that of the Isreali's but you don't seem to care about that. It only seems to be that Muslims are being subjugated by Jews that angers you, Palestinians being killed by Arab Muslims goes un-noticed and inspires no Muslim anger. Why is this?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Peace

I read your post and there are many things you are confused about? But I noticed that the root of your confusion is mainly due to your lack of knowledge of the present world politics. I know that my statement is very vague. You need to look along this line, it will explain why the majority Muslim governments are behaving the way they are. I’ll also explain why those that resist to being subjects of the oppressors are never entitled to freedom. I would have explained it in more but I apologise for not being able to do so now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have found that the more religious a Muslim is the less intouch with reality he or she becomes.

 

I have found that the less religious a person is, the less in touch with reality he or she becomes.

 

and claim that pre Islamic Arabia was lost in barbarity and uneducated ingnorance,

 

Who claimed that they were uneducated? Everyone knows that, when it came to education and business, the Arabs were on top of their game. It was their actions (such as burying of infant girls to avoid financial responsibilities) that was the reason they were "lost in barbarity".

 

From seeing perfect morals where questionable morality is on display

 

What questionable morality? What do you use to judge someone as having questionable morality?

 

I will start a thread to debate the Islamic rewritting of history

 

You will debate this using whose history books? Yours?

 

Salam.

Edited by Redeem

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What do you mean my history books? I'm not a historian, I have written no historical books. But if you think the holocaust is a lie and the koran revealed embryology then you are not talking about history you are talking about blind faith and ignorance. If that is your history then your history has no basis in reality.

 

When I say history I mean a history that uses the best data at hand and is honest about everything from European barbarity to American barbarity, Mayan barbarity manifested by the sacrificing of humans, Conquistadors killing Mayans, Greeks inventing democracy, the crusades, the inqusition, the Nazis, The Grand Mufti of Palestine supporting Hitler, the enlightenment, the civil rights movement, the Corsair slave traders, the Ottoman imperialists, the Algerian genocide, the invention of the lightbulb, the invention of elevators and traffic lights, the advancements in medicine, the despicable lies of George Bush and the genocidal intolerance of Al Qieda.

 

I'm talking about human history not partisan history.

 

If you think of history as a "them and us" thing, as a partisan game where Islam is the greatest and Western lies steal Islams glory and slander Islams purity then you are as out of touch as the worst and most deluded fundamentalist in Christian America or the wilds of Afghanistan.

 

How can we have a debate if you refuse to accept anything but the books written by devout Muslims? You are by default excluding yourself from any meaningfull conversation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote ( jamestaylor)

 

Now not only is he demanding that Isreal should be wiped out which implies he is an advocate of genocide he implies that the Isreali state is akin to the Nazi war machine. None of this has any basis in reality.

Your BIG mouth shows that you are a slanderer for slandering me.

 

Yes I demand that israel should be wiped out because it is established by Zionist terrorists who terrorize and rob Palestinian people of their land but I was not and am not an advocate of genocide for I believe that Zionists should return Palestine to Palestinian people who are Muslims, Christians and Jews who have been living in Palestine since the time is immemorial and the Zionists should return to Europe etc for they had been living in Europe since the time is immemorial.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote ( jamestaylor)

they then go on to claim the scientific discoveries of the Greeks as revelations of the Koran even though these Greeks discoveries predate Islam by centuries. I will start a thread to debate the Islamic rewritting of history and the claim the the Koran is scientific

 

The Quran on the Origin of the Universe:

 

Source: (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetIslam-guide(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/frm-ch1-1-c.htm"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetIslam-guide(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/frm-ch1-1-c.htm[/url] and (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetislamonline(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/english/Science/2002/10/article11.shtml"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetislamonline(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/english/Science...article11.shtml[/url]

 

In the Holy Quran we read:

 

"Ãæáã íÑ ÇáÐíä ßÝÑæÇ Ãä ÇáÓãÇæÇÊ æÇáÃÑÖ ßÇäÊÇ ÑÊÞÇ ÝÝÊÞäÇåãÇ.." a (ÇáÃäÈíÇÁ:30)

 

"Haven't the unbelievers seen that the heavens and the earth were joined together (in one singularity), then we clove both of them asunder.” (the Holy Quran 21:30)

 

This verse reflects the unity of creation as a dominating factor in the orderly form of the universe throughout its evolutionary history from one stage to another.

 

Scientists are now certain that the universe came to being by a big bang:

######you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetislamonline(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/english/Science/2002/10/images/pic11-a.jpg[/img]

 

More recent calculations indicate that hydrogen and helium were the primary products of the Big Bang, with heavier elements being produced later within stars. The extremely high density within the "primeval atom" would cause the universe to expand rapidly. As it expanded, the smoky cloud of hydrogen and helium thus formed would cool and condense into nebulae stars, galaxies, clusters, super clusters, black holes, etc.

 

This explains the original singularity of the universe; its explosion to a huge cloud of smoke from which the different heavenly bodies were formed by separation into eddies of various masses followed by condensation. The condensed bodies were arranged into stellar systems, clusters, galaxies, supergalaxies, etc., and the formed galaxies started to drift away from each other, causing the steady expansion of the universe.

 

The Glorious Quran describes these three successive stages in the verses (21: 30), (41: 11) and (21: 104). The first and the third of these verses are discussed above, while the second reads:

 

"Ëã ÇÓÊæì Åáì ÇáÓãÇÁ æåí ÏÎÇä ÝÞÇá áåÇ æááÃÑÖ ÅÆÊíÇ ØæÚðÇ Ãæ ßÑåðÇ ÞÇáÊÇ ÃÊíäÇ ØÇÆÚíä"a (ÝÕáÊ)

 

"Then He (Allah) turned to the sky while it was smoke, and ordered it the earth to come into being willingly or unwillingly, they answered: we do come in willing obedience*" (41: 11)

 

######you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetislamonline(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/english/Science/2002/10/images/pic11-b.jpg[/img] ######you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetislamonline(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/english/Science/2002/10/images/pic11-c.jpg[/img]

 

The science of modern cosmology, observational and theoretical, clearly indicates that, at one point in time, the whole universe was nothing but a cloud of ‘smoke’ (i.e. an opaque highly dense and hot gaseous composition). Source : The First Three Minutes, a Modern View of the Origin of the Universe, Weinberg, pp. 94-105. This is one of the undisputed principles of standard modern cosmology. Scientists now can observe new stars forming out of the remnants of that ‘smoke’ (see figures 10 and 11).

 

######you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetIslam-guide(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/ch1-1-c-img1.jpg[/img]

 

Figure 10: A new star forming out of a cloud of gas and dust (nebula), which is one of the remnants of the ‘smoke’ that was the origin of the whole universe. (The Space Atlas, Heather and Henbest, p. 50.)

 

######you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetIslam-guide(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/ch1-1-c-img2.jpg[/img]

 

Figure 11: The Lagoon nebula is a cloud of gas and dust, about 60 light years in diameter. It is excited by the ultraviolet radiation of the hot stars that have recently formed within its bulk. (Horizons, Exploring the Universe, Seeds, plate 9, from Association of Universities for Research in Astronomy, Inc.) (Click on the image to enlarge it.)

 

The illuminating stars we see at night were, just as was the whole universe, in that ‘smoke’ material. God has said in the Quran:

 

Then He turned to the heaven when it was smoke... (the Holy Quran 41:11)

 

Because the earth and the heavens above (the sun, the moon, stars, planets, galaxies, etc.) have been formed from this same ‘smoke,’ we conclude that the earth and the heavens were one connected entity. Then out of this homogeneous ‘smoke,’ they formed and separated from each other. God has said in the Quran:

 

Have not those who disbelieved known that the heavens and the earth were one connected entity, then We separated them?... (the Holy Quran 21:30)

 

Dr. Alfred Kroner is one of the world’s renowned geologists. He is Professor of Geology and the Chairman of the Department of Geology at the Institute of Geosciences, Johannes Gutenberg University, Mainz, Germany. He said: “Thinking where Muhammad came from . . . I think it is almost impossible that he could have known about things like the common origin of the universe, because scientists have only found out within the last few years, with very complicated and advanced technological methods, that this is the case.” (To view the RealPlayer video of this comment click here (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetIslam-guide(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/frm-ch1-1-c.htm)"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetIslam-guide(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/frm-ch1-1-c.htm)[/url]. Also he said: “Somebody who did not know something about nuclear physics fourteen hundred years ago could not, I think, be in a position to find out from his own mind, for instance, that the earth and the heavens had the same origin.” (View the RealPlayer video of this comment (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetIslam-guide(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/frm-ch1-1-c.htm)"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetIslam-guide(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/frm-ch1-1-c.htm)[/url].

 

Now I challenge you jamestaylor to show me any Greek scientists who had discussed the Big Bang (the Origin of the Universe) correctly. Please show me your evidence and references to support your claim.

 

I believe the Holy Quran is perfect for it is the word of Allah (God) and I don't give a damn to your allegation since you jamestaylor are a non-religionist who reject God based on your ignorance and arrogance.

Edited by wiseguy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

in my opinion the state should be non-religious...

simply cuz religion is everybody's subjective choice

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

By the way you still sound like an advocate of genocide and you sound like you are totally ignorant of history and geography, the Middle East has been populated by Jews, Christians, Buddhists and non believers since before the creation of Islam. You are allot like Ariel Sharon if you think that the earth should be divided up and your group should be separated from the rest of mankind, maybe by a big wall? or are you erring on the side of Hitler and do you think that seperation should not be a physical wall but a hirachy in which Muslims are the masters and all of the rest of mankind are subdued, killed or banished from Muslim lands? Then what? Genocide or does the genocide begin with the destruction of the Jewish state?

 

If you don't wan't to live in peace with your fellow man and think the Middle East should be pure Muslim lands then you are the one whos world view runs parralel to the Nazis. Calling me big mouth shows imaturity and your lack of knowledge about the history of lands you care enough to kill for is criminal. I think there are many more educated Muslims on this site who would be far more productive to debate than you Mr ######.

 

As for your scientific miracles.....There is no seperation, no heaven and earth just the universe. The Koran is totally wrong. The sun does not travel across the sky or set in a muddy pool. We travel around the sun and we are all made out of the same things that stars are made of, we originaly came from stars. The earth and everything on it including you and I are part of the universe. We where not magicked into existance by a god who created our realm independantly of heaven where he sits in a garden with rivers of wine and a dearth of young female virgins to reward his earthly warriors.

 

This is all so un scientific but you cling to three or four vague refrences to gaseous smoke and singularities being cloven asunder by mighty god and you hold them alloft as if they where impossible to argue against, as if they where scientific evidence but they are not and you still believe those unscientific things like the virgins for people who kill and die for Islam. You can't have it both ways, is the Koran scientific or supernatural, does it describe the big bang perfectly without looking to the Greeks and if it does is it right that mountains are like tent pegs instead of the result of plate techtonics. First you have to decide which Koranic science you believe in and if you uncritically believe in it all then you must choose which modern science to jettison and if you are doing that why bother with science at all, you have the Koran you don't need science.

 

The so called science you have painstakingly cut and pasted from someone elses website is just a loose interpretation of some ambiguous religious verses. They can be interpreted in more than one way and to try to twist those verses into somekind of amazing revalation which proves that Islam is true by predating modern scientific discovery is just desperate and it's bad science.

 

The theory of relativity is unambiguous, the germ theory is unambiguous, the theory of evolution is unambiguous. They are complicated pieces of science as anything that describes so much must be but they are based on observation, evidence and experimentation not on a loose interpretation of a vaguely written verse in a holy book which has verses that contradict the ones you are holding up as scientific. Science looks at the world around us and studies it to come to conclusions you are looking at a sentence written in a book and trying to make reality fit that sentence and you are conveniantly ignoring the scientific heresy in the pages of the Koran. It's bad science, it's desperate, it's wrong and it's disingenuous.

 

 

 

You hold up these vague and easily manipilated verses as proof of some kind of miracle but you conveniantly ignore the unambiguous verses that are quite plainly proved wrong by science, those verses that talk about the sun setting in a muddy pool or that mountains are placed by god as tent pegs to hold the world together.

 

There is nothing miraculously new in the Koran, much of your so called evidence for your miracles are actually theories that predate the Koran by centuries. The idea that the universe began as some sort of gaseous vortex was ubiquitous throughout Greek and Persian ideologies plus Hindus made some rather strikingingly accurate theories but I don't suppose you are tempted to take any Hellenistic science, Persian science or Indian science and see it as a proof that the Zoroastrians, the Greek pantheon of gods or Hinduism is true. So the Koran takes some old theories and rewrites them, some of them it improves on some of them it gets completely wrong but you hold up the improved theories of the Greeks and Persians as proof of the devine revalation of Mohammad. Now you really are stretching a bad argument, cluthing at straws dear boy.

 

If the Koran had in it's pages a cure for cancer, the dates of the tsunami, the dates of the Hiroshima bomb and the instructions for the creation of electricity then I would have to take your claim seriously that the Koran could quite possibly be the magic book you proclaim it to be but so far you have not done that sorry.

 

Just find out a bit about Aristotle, hipocrates and galen these three alone will show you there is nothing miraculous or ahead of it's time in what you claim as a miraculous scientific prediction.

 

Yes I know the claim that Mohammad was illiterate but there is no proof of that and it doesn't matter because many intelligent people where illiterate back then, information was transfered by the spoken word. Mohammad was a merchant and was married to a rich and powerful woman. He would have come into contact with people from Greece, Persia, Rome and India no doub't. He would have listened to the tales of Jews, Christians, athiests and others. To say he was illiterate so he knew nothing until the angel visited him in a cave and revealed all is another desperate attempt to claim perfection and divinity where the evidence shows there is none.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What do you mean my history books? I'm not a historian, I have written no historical books. But if you think the holocaust is a lie and the koran revealed embryology then you are not talking about history you are talking about blind faith and ignorance. If that is your history then your history has no basis in reality.

 

You're mixing things that have absolutely no relevance to one another. Firstly, who said that the holocaust did not happen? Did the Qur'an say the holocaust is a lie? Did prophet Muhammad? Why are you laying this blame at the doorstep of Islam?

 

I couldn't care less if the Qur'an revealed embryology or not, because that is not the foundation of my faith. But I hope you are not than the typical non-Muslim hypocrite who claims that certain verses in the Qur'an are "vague" and thus do not describe scientific events, but that other verses are not so vague when the hypocrites wish to "prove" that the Qur'an is not in agreement with science.

 

When I say history I mean a history that uses the best data at hand and is honest about everything from European barbarity to American barbarity, Mayan barbarity manifested by the sacrificing of humans, Conquistadors killing Mayans, Greeks inventing democracy, the crusades, the inqusition, the Nazis, The Grand Mufti of Palestine supporting Hitler, the enlightenment, the civil rights movement, the Corsair slave traders, the Ottoman imperialists, the Algerian genocide, the invention of the lightbulb, the invention of elevators and traffic lights, the advancements in medicine, the despicable lies of George Bush and the genocidal intolerance of Al Qieda.

 

And who knows about the history of pre-Islamic Arabia? Who are you to claim that they did not have barbaric practices?

 

I'm talking about human history not partisan history.

 

Human history recorded by WHO? Do you believe that there is absolutely no bias in the writings of history, which favors one side more than it does the other?

 

If you think of history as a "them and us" thing, as a partisan game where Islam is the greatest and Western lies steal Islams glory and slander Islams purity then you are as out of touch as the worst and most deluded fundamentalist in Christian America or the wilds of Afghanistan.

 

Islam IS the greatest. You are confusing Islam with the history of Islamic nations. Two entirely different things, and we would need to go into an entirely different subject to discuss the former.

 

However, if you honestly believe that the west does not lie to slander Islam and to turn the public against it, then you are in a sad state of denial.

 

Salam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

WHY ARE SO MANY "MUSLIMS" TERRORISTS?

 

I'll tell you why. Westerners have killed tens of millions of Muslims in Afghanistan, Iraq, Palestine, Russia, Chechneya, Kosovo, Egypt etc. Heck, my uncle was killed and tortured by israelis in Palestine; millions of other kids are also in my position. So it's only natural that a few of them want revenge and end up becoming terrorists. I however have forgiven the perpetrators of these deeds.b

 

Moreover, compare the tens of millions of Muslims that died at the hands of Westerners to the few hundred Westerners that died at the hands of "Muslims". Muslims are outraged when they are heard being called terrorists since the West has commited much worse atrocities against innocent civilians and not only do they get away with it, they mould peoples' minds to believe that the West are the good guys. A minority get so infuriated by this that they actually begin to loathe the West to the point that they forget what Islam has taught them and they start to kill every Westerner they see out of their rage.

 

The actions of such people is strictly prohibited in Islam, but I'm just trying to show people why terrorists do what they do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I appreciate what you're saying but I dispute your figures (which is sort of beside the point, I realise, but it's also an example of the "think of a number and triple it" school of victimology).

 

I doubt that "the West" has killed tens of millions of Muslims in, say, the past 500 years. Even if you attribute a death by a Muslim suicide bomber in Baghdad to "the West" I doubt that the figure is anywhere close.

 

By the way, Russia is not part of "the West".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well I mentioned holocaust denial because of this silly claim that history as we know it is somehow a falsehood. There are only two groups of people who deny that the holocaust ever happened and they are neo nazis and muslims. Not all Muslims but a high percentage, holocaust denial is mainstream in Muslim countries. There are even countries that still peddle the blood libel, the myth that evil Jews sacrifice a Christian child to use their blood in the making of the Matzos or drink Arab blood in their ceremonies. Yes there are ignorant and hate filled fools in the west but they do not get the forum of prime time TV slots to peddle their hate, infact if a nazi tries to demonise a race and calls for their destruction far from getting television rights and a seething mob of support they are arrested and condemned by society at large. This kind of ignorant hate filled re-writting of history and demonisation of people is rife in the Islamic countries. That is why I mentioned it.

 

If the Koran is not the foundation of your faith then what is? Are you so special that the creator of the universe has revealed himself to you and confirmed that only good Muslims are worthy of his respect and love? I'm starting to think I might be talking to someone with a rather high opinion of himself.

 

I didn't say the Koran revealed embryology I said that Hippocrates and Galen where the people who wrote that brilliant but primative science centuries before the Koran was written.

 

I'm not a hypocrite but there is absolutely nothing that predicts any scientific discoveries in the Koran. You are ignorant of the scientific method if you think it does. That does not make you a hypocrite but it does make you ignorant and blinded by faith.

 

The history of pre-Islamic Arabia is rich and full of civilized practises and barbarity, the history of Islamic Arabia is also full of advanced civilization and barbarism. I'm not claiming that Islam didn't banish some barbaric practises but the claim that all there was was barbarity until Islam and then all was a utopian peace apart from the righteous wars waged against the enemies of Islam is so partisan, so ignorant and so disingenuos that it is not worth taking seriously.

 

We in the west don't stone women to death for adultery, in Islam this is still seen as a wholesome practise. So Islam is hardly free from barbarity or do you deny that throwing rocks at a womans head until it cracks open is barbaric.

 

I do not deny that much historical work will have the bias of the person who wrote it but it is quite easy to tell good history from bad. A history that is honest about the crimes and triumphs of many differing groups of people and doesn't lionise one group at the expense of all others is most likely to be true.

 

I assume the only history you are interested in is the one in which Islam bathes in the glory of the creator of the universe and all of the rest of mankind are hypocritical, vile beasts who cheat and steal to gain power but are always ultimately cast into the fire by the righteous Muslims and proud pious warriors of Islam. A History where invasions of Spain and Persia where not bloody affairs where Islam was spread by the sword but a beautiful flowering of Islam welcomed by the people of these countries. Now that is a biased history and yes western history books will by and large have a bias but they would have to try very hard to reach that level of partisan dishonesty.

 

I know and care about Dresden, I know about the invention of the concentration camp in Kenya, I know about the crimes of Empire, I know about the genocide of the North American Indian, I know about the civil rights movement, I know about Eddison, I know about Einstien, Newton, Shakespeare I know about the Corsair slave traders, I know about the Moorish invasion and occupation of Spain, I know about the Ottoman empire and it's wars, I know about Avicena, I know about Al-Khwarizimi, I know about the history of Thailand and their wars with their Burmese neighbours, I know allot about the recent bloody history of Cambodia.

 

I care about the human story both good and bad. I can admit the crimes of my people and aknowledge their triumphs without seeing superiority in them. After all we are all only humans and are capable of both good and bad. Are you capable of being that honest with yourself or does you faith forbid you from seeing the bad in Islamic history and society? By the way saying that Muslims can be bad but Islam is perfect is not going to wash with me. I'm not confusing Islamic history with Islam. If Islam is so perfect and given to us by the omnipotent, omniscient, merciful all loving creator then he would have known in advance that his followers would occasionaly stone a rape victim, turn to suicide bombing and have a history of spreading their religion by the sword. So if he is all powerfull,, everywhere and all knowing then he knew of the wrongs that would be done by Muslims who are honestly trying to follow his rules, so either he is not all powerful, all knowing and mercifull or the violence, stonings, beheadings and Islamic imperialism is actually part of his plan and Islam has nothing but perfection in it's history and can rise above all of human kind as impervious to criticism. If an American soldier beheads a Muslim that is a crime but a Muslim beheading an American soldier must be part of gods plan. Think about it.

 

Now you close your last post like a child in a playground with your "Islam is the greatest" chant, it makes me wonder if I'm debating someone with any maturity.

 

The international bill of human rights, freedom, equality, science and modernity are all great improvements on the beliefs of the desert.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No , for seperation between starte and religion {specailly if it is Islam }

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Really? You'd prefer to live in a state which had an official religion (that wsn't Islam) to one that treated all religions equally?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
No , for seperation between starte and religion {specailly if it is Islam }

 

If you want the state to be an Islamic theocracy you have to work out what to do about all of us non muslims. Let us choose our own rules and find our own path, force us with violence to accept your theocracy or exterminate us. Please explain your vision of the future.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

explain whats romes position in the world and why christianity has been the leader in the world were living in now and how it has effected the earth.look at what constentine did to the religion of Jesus what was the motive behind the crusades?

 

HELL what our own country was founded on was nothing more than missionarys who done nothing but kill rape and enslave the indian people. I wont mention slavery now, however what the constitution is freedom equality and justice for all is correct. But look at the state of our country drugs prostitutes crime CHILD PORNOGRAPHY, ###### strippers drug dealers, etc.. look how corrupt this system is. This is not what the forfarthers wanted but it has happened this is not what the indians wanted but it happened.

 

Islam comes to rid of all the greed the drugs the ###### the failing system and those who see Islam as the fastest growing religion are scared and they start spreading lies to protect their way of life. How is it that some man can rape your son and kill your wife go to jail and you as the victim , out of your hard working money is paying for that dirty man to live??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
explain whats romes position in the world and why christianity has been the leader in the world were living in now and how it has effected the earth.look at what constentine did to the religion of Jesus what was the motive behind the crusades?

 

HELL what our own country was founded on was nothing more than missionarys who done nothing but kill rape and enslave the indian people. I wont mention slavery now, however what the constitution is freedom equality and justice for all is correct. But look at the state of our country drugs prostitutes crime CHILD PORNOGRAPHY, ###### strippers drug dealers, etc.. look how corrupt this system is. This is not what the forfarthers wanted but it has happened this is not what the indians wanted but it happened.

 

Islam comes to rid of all the greed the drugs the ###### the failing system and those who see Islam as the fastest growing religion are scared and they start spreading lies to protect their way of life. How is it that some man can rape your son and kill your wife go to jail and you as the victim , out of your hard working money is paying for that dirty man to live??

 

Ok in the modern Rome you are free to be a Muslim or a Buddhist, in the UK you are free to be a Muslim, you are even free to call for the beheadings of non muslims and call for the implimentation of Sharia law on to the non muslim population. In the USA you are free to be a peaceful practising Muslim. In the USA you are free to publicly burn the American flag and call for jihad. If anyone publicly and openly criticised Islam in an Islamic country they would be lynched by the mob, if they burnt the Koran they would be stabbed, burnt and beaten. If I want to teach Buddhist meditation or worship Shiva in Saudi Arabia I would be imprisoned and possibly totrtured.

 

I see you care about India, well the Islamic conquerers of India where far more brutal than the British as they imposed the jizya and used mass murder to convert Hindus to Islam. I know you will now say that is a lie but the way you all seem to be saying that an Islamic theocracy should be compulsory begs the question what to do about all of us non muslims who want to live free from your belief, free from a religious tax, free from dhimmi status? Well one logical consequence of your desire to impliment global Islamic theocracy is that either you agree to let non muslims have freedom, you convert the non muslims or you subjugate and kill those who do not obey. EG: Genocide, the genocide of the moguls is quite likely not a lie as they are the logical conclusion to an Islamic theocracy.

 

We humans all have the capacity to do bad things but at least under liberal democracy you can be a Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist or secular. Under your theocracy there are only two types of people the masters (Muslims) and the dhimmis (non muslims) everyone else must be exterminated because they create mischief in gods land.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

George Bush has double standards. The British Empire had double standards and both showed the worst face of real politik you could ever wish to see but Muslims have double standards also. It is a human trait.

 

Muslims hate imperialism but think the Ottoman Empire was a good thing, they hate the idea of a country being invaded but they see the Moorish invasion of Spain as glorious. You decry Islamophobia but you demonise atheists and Jews. You are all appaled at the oppresion of the Palestinians yet so few of you say anything about Darfur or the oppression of the Coptic Christians in Egypt not to mention the plight of the Tibetans, the Burmese or until recently the East Timorese.

 

You hope that laws will be implimented to ensure that cartoons cannot be drawn of Mohammad and you demand that non muslims treat Islam with the same respect as a Muslim, we must not joke about Islam or poke fun at your beliefs or you might get angry. But you quite happily laugh at the Christian belief that Jesus was the son of god and you talk about Hindus and Buddhists in a derogatory way.

 

Yet you hate the West because of their oppresion but you want to wipe out liberal democracy and freedom and impliment a theocracy the logical result of which would be opprasion.

 

It seems like a healthy dose of double standards to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well said, JamesTaylor.

 

How is it that some man can rape your son and kill your wife go to jail and you as the victim , out of your hard working money is paying for that dirty man to live??

 

I don't get your point - some secular states have the death penalty. I'm glad my country doesn't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Islam doesnot want to control your life. Islam for many is a better way of life in fact study the constitution and you will find many things that come from the QURAN. LOOK at the dark ages Islam was the way of life that opened back up education look at how many people came to Islam. They will have you belive that Islam was brought by the sword this is false, Islam WAS PROTECTED BY THE SWORD. The life of the people during the dark ages was burying first born daughters alive, idol worship, slavery, prostitution,sodomy,rape, changing JESUES sayings to suit their own needs controling mass people and if you tried to follow what JESUS preached you were killed.

 

Education wasnt free it is only for those who had control the rest of the masses was to do the bidding of those over them and those who spoke out was hanged burnt at the stake crucified and thousands of scholars killed and BIBLES burned . All to introduce this new way of life of idol worship and mass control, look kill the scholars of the BIBLE and burn the old ones and introduce a new one and kill whoever speaks out against it. IN this time the dark ages Islam comes and this is what the masses were waiting for a new way of life this new way or life was the renesonce(forgive my spelling errors) Islam destroyed the system that these elite were operating education was free, the rich had to help the poor,no more slavery,prostitution sodomy, rape, GOD WAS PUT FIRST JESUS AND OTHER PROPHETS WERE UPHELD AGAIN and thousands of people gravitated towards Islam.

 

Science started making further advancments than ever before this is facts not false. Those who wanted to keep the old system going of only for the elite was furious and they started wars against this new way of life, but they were taking back because the people actualy fought back. Wars includid christians jews and muslims fighting together against the ruling opposition, CHRISTIANS AN JEWS were free to practice their religion under this new IslamIC government those who didnt want to follow either religion were welcomed and stayed in these countries gone into hiding was gambiling, protitution, ######, sodomy,rape,etc.. OHHH what happened to those who saw this new way of life destroying the old way they ploted and planed against this new system of fredom for all knowledge for all. And it took some time but as soon as they got enough power the crusades started up professing to be CHRITIANS the went into JERUSULM and MURDERED CHRISTAIN JEW AND MUSLIM WOMEN CHILDREN MEN who were living in peace.

 

The crusade was the launchpad for getting the old system back and it worked gone were the days of gambiling prostitution etc.. now theyare making a com back! Slavery started back up, now putting people back over people was introduced (kings and queens) education is nolonger free its back in the hands of the elite. Columbus a missionary crusader went into AMERICA killed raped and stole from the IDIAN so much that the INDIAN cheifs gave in to the robbers and we call this THANKSGIVING the INDIANS are thankful for no more murder no more rape of their beautiful women and being that they surrendered they are able to live in AMERICA and not pay taxes (they werent paying any in the first place). Now comes the elite they establish presidents a constitution that they dont follow all men are created equal riiiight so where the hell does slavery fit in. Now Islam is still ongoing but they have managed to silence it once it starts to manifeist itself in the world and becomes the second and the worlds fastest growing way of life they who are on top get scared.

 

They now own meida, newspapers hollywood and they use this to protect their way of life, the rich get rich the poor has to work like a dog to get the AMERICAN DREAM drugs wholescale prostitution strippers gambiling (LAS VEGAS A.K.A. SIN CITY) ###### all the vile things are wide spread all things to keep you in check WAKE UP!!! WHY IS THE NEWS ONE SIDED WHY ALL THE IslamIC PHOBEIA ,TERRORIST WHY?? because Islam comes to rid them of their grip on the masses and no not to enslave you into following Islam. Just look at the news why always onesided this makes ou the viewer extremly one sided you are an extremist and dont even realize it WAKE UP!!!! AND SEE YOUR BEING USED !!!!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Islam doesnot want to control your life. Islam for many is a better way of life in fact study the constitution and you will find many things that come from the QURAN. LOOK at the dark ages Islam was the way of life that opened back up education look at how many people came to Islam. They will have you belive that Islam was brought by the sword this is false, Islam WAS PROTECTED BY THE SWORD. The life of the people during the dark ages was burying first born daughters alive, idol worship, slavery, prostitution,sodomy,rape, changing JESUES sayings to suit their own needs controling mass people and if you tried to follow what JESUS preached you were killed.

 

Education wasnt free it is only for those who had control the rest of the masses was to do the bidding of those over them and those who spoke out was hanged burnt at the stake crucified and thousands of scholars killed and BIBLES burned . All to introduce this new way of life of idol worship and mass control, look kill the scholars of the BIBLE and burn the old ones and introduce a new one and kill whoever speaks out against it. IN this time the dark ages Islam comes and this is what the masses were waiting for a new way of life this new way or life was the renesonce(forgive my spelling errors) Islam destroyed the system that these elite were operating education was free, the rich had to help the poor,no more slavery,prostitution sodomy, rape, GOD WAS PUT FIRST JESUS AND OTHER PROPHETS WERE UPHELD AGAIN and thousands of people gravitated towards Islam.

 

Science started making further advancments than ever before this is facts not false. Those who wanted to keep the old system going of only for the elite was furious and they started wars against this new way of life, but they were taking back because the people actualy fought back. Wars includid christians jews and muslims fighting together against the ruling opposition, CHRISTIANS AN JEWS were free to practice their religion under this new IslamIC government those who didnt want to follow either religion were welcomed and stayed in these countries gone into hiding was gambiling, protitution, ######, sodomy,rape,etc.. OHHH what happened to those who saw this new way of life destroying the old way they ploted and planed against this new system of fredom for all knowledge for all. And it took some time but as soon as they got enough power the crusades started up professing to be CHRITIANS the went into JERUSULM and MURDERED CHRISTAIN JEW AND MUSLIM WOMEN CHILDREN MEN who were living in peace.

 

The crusade was the launchpad for getting the old system back and it worked gone were the days of gambiling prostitution etc.. now theyare making a com back! Slavery started back up, now putting people back over people was introduced (kings and queens) education is nolonger free its back in the hands of the elite. Columbus a missionary crusader went into AMERICA killed raped and stole from the IDIAN so much that the INDIAN cheifs gave in to the robbers and we call this THANKSGIVING the INDIANS are thankful for no more murder no more rape of their beautiful women and being that they surrendered they are able to live in AMERICA and not pay taxes (they werent paying any in the first place). Now comes the elite they establish presidents a constitution that they dont follow all men are created equal riiiight so where the hell does slavery fit in. Now Islam is still ongoing but they have managed to silence it once it starts to manifeist itself in the world and becomes the second and the worlds fastest growing way of life they who are on top get scared.

 

They now own meida, newspapers hollywood and they use this to protect their way of life, the rich get rich the poor has to work like a dog to get the AMERICAN DREAM drugs wholescale prostitution strippers gambiling (LAS VEGAS A.K.A. SIN CITY) ###### all the vile things are wide spread all things to keep you in check WAKE UP!!! WHY IS THE NEWS ONE SIDED WHY ALL THE IslamIC PHOBEIA ,TERRORIST WHY?? because Islam comes to rid them of their grip on the masses and no not to enslave you into following Islam. Just look at the news why always onesided this makes ou the viewer extremly one sided you are an extremist and dont even realize it WAKE UP!!!! AND SEE YOUR BEING USED !!!!!!

 

 

Ok for starters Islam means submission and it has rules for everything from who you can have sex with to how you have sex, it has rules for what you can eat, it has rules for how you use the toilet. It is in short a total life controling doctrine with angels spying on your thoughts and Allah waiting to judge you. Please don't tell me it's aim is not control and submission.

 

Secondly I don't think sex is evil only monotheists think sex is something to fear and to be ashamed of.

 

Thirdly I'm not Christian or American and I think Christianity is fairytales and the American dream is just that "A Dream!"

 

I think people having consensual sex out of wedlock is less damaging than stoning people for having sex out of wedlock.

 

I have a phobia of anything that wishes to take away freedom. Islamic theocracy would take away my freedom and use oppresion to force people to conform. Yes I have a phobia of this. I don't have Sufiphobia or Islamaphobia but I do have Islamismphobia. Well to be correct I don't have a phobia of Muslims who have some humility and are prepared to admit the possibility of their world view being wrong. To say you have faith and believe but you don't know is cool but to say you know when you don't is intrinsically divisive and I don't like it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×