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Anti-Muslim Film Director killed by Muslim

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It is evil brother. But the problem is non-muslims commit all kind of sins: adultery, homosexuatiy, associcating partners with God etc. Should it mean we ought to do the same? If we do, then they will be punished anyway but so will we.

 

The person may have demonstrated incorrent Islam, our task is to correct him but not to join in the ignorance

 

:w:

 

 

But you do the same .....and worse - you murder .

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Of course, murdering the guy makes no difference either- it makes it worse, as I said before.

 

If you had stopped there it would have been a great post.

 

But that was possibly the only way the murderer saw of making his point, I guess.

 

Always the "but" when it involves a Muslim. Is it wrong, yes or no?

 

 

If the murderer was indeed a Muslim

 

You're kidding right?

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But you say you do your best to see our side: If you were a Muslim, saw a movie that abuses the Word of Allah (SWT)...what would you have done?

 

I have seen many movies that argue against what I believe, and often in horrible ways. I have never approved of killing the people that made the movies though, and in fact it would revolt me if someone did.

 

If someone did kill a film maker for espousing things I don't believe in I can assure you completely that I would condemn the murder.

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If killing folks who make really bad movies full of falsehoods was the American way, Michael Moore would have been killed 59,000,000 times.

 

:D

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:D

 

[at]gill: lol, no, that's not a western view only. If I saw a movie concerning anything but blaspheme of religion and I didn't like it, I'd go see another movie too. The problem with your view is, however, you speak of God as a human, and that it was God who ordered V.G. to be killed. Van Gogh has (or had) a right to his own opinion, and to be murdered for that is wrong.

 

[at]Livius: (I think it was a great post anyway :D) I answered your question already: The murder of an innocent is a horrible crime in Islam. I only stated why I thought the murderer might have killed him.

And no, I'm not kidding. Forgive me for sounding like a paranoid conspiracy theorist, but there is a very large possibility of the murderer not being a Muslim.

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:D

 

You misunderstand me. I said that, by giving your art example, you were saying that since God created the Qur'an, and all the muslims (art critics) said it was wonderful and someone denies it (Van Gogh, I assume) then should they be killed, and I answered:

 

"... you speak of God as a human, and that it was God who ordered V.G. to be killed."

 

I am trying to say that NO, God did NOT order him to be killed. This was just a reply to your example, slightly off-topic, nothing more. I apologize for not having spoken more clearly.

 

Now, if you will excuse me, I'm off to break my fast.

 

:w:

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From reading some of the posts those that are non-Muslim keep asking the same question…’is it right or wrong?’ life isn’t black and white, in this sense we can’t give you a straight answer because we would not be considering all the situations involved. Personally it is wrong to kill an innocent, and the Qur’an states that. However, on the bases of his death you can’t say that the murderer should be cursed. This is simply because he felt that law was not going to take action so he took it in his own hands. The director is dead now! Dwelling on it and trying to argue for his life is not going to resurrect him from his grave. The bottom line is he used his power to a disadvantage and had to pay a high consequence.

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From reading some of the posts those that are non-Muslim keep asking the same question…’is it right or wrong?’ life isn’t black and white, in this sense we can’t give you a straight answer because we would not be considering all the situations involved. Personally it is wrong to kill an innocent, and the Qur’an states that. However, on the bases of his death you can’t say that the murderer should be cursed. This is simply because he felt that law was not going to take action so he took it in his own hands. The director is dead now! Dwelling on it and trying to argue for his life is not going to resurrect him from his grave. The bottom line is he used his power to a disadvantage and had to pay a high consequence.

 

The issue of murder is black and white. It is wrong to take another human beings life. That simple. The murderer should be cursed because he broke this basic human law and now someone is dead. And for what? because he made a fictional 10 minute movie that someone found distasteful. A story that Theo Van Gogh didnt even write mind you. The story was written by a muslim woman.

 

Think about the implications that this murder would have on the public view of Islam now. I would never have heard or seen this movie unless the director was murdered. Think about how popular this movie is going to be now and how much worse Islam will look in the world. Once again, much like the case of Irshaad Manji and Salman Rushdie, muslims have shot themselves in the foot.

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Netherlands braces for 'jihad'

 

 

By Anthony Deutsch

ASSOCIATED PRESS

 

THE HAGUE  The Dutch government yesterday vowed tough measures against what a leading politician called "the arrival of jihad in the Netherlands" after a death threat to a Dutch lawmaker was found spiked with a knife to the body of a slain filmmaker by his radical Muslim attacker.

A five-page letter released Thursday night by the justice minister forced political leaders  including Amsterdam's Jewish mayor and members of parliament  to take on bodyguards.

The document, attached to the body of filmmaker Theo van Gogh, was titled "An Open Letter to [Aayan] Hirsi Ali," referring to a Somali-born member of parliament. She had scripted Mr. van Gogh's latest film, "Submission," which criticized the treatment of women under Islam.

Miss Hirsi Ali, who calls herself an ex-Muslim, has gone into hiding.

"Death, Ms. Hirsi Ali, is the common theme of all that exists. You and the rest of the cosmos cannot escape this truth," the letter said.

"There will come a day when one soul cannot help another soul. A day that goes paired with terrible tortures, ... when the unjust will press horrible screams from their lungs.

"Screams, Ms. Hirsi Ali, that will cause chills to run down a person's back, and make the hairs on their heads stand straight up. People will be drunk with fear, while they are not drunken. Fear will fill the air on the Great Day," the letter said.

"I know definitely that you, Oh America, will go down. I know definitely that you, Oh Europe, will go down. I know definitely that you, Oh Netherlands, will go down. I know definitely that you, Oh Hirsi Ali, will go down," it said.

Deputy Prime Minister Gerrit Zalm agreed with comments by other politicians who called Mr. van Gogh's slaying a declaration of Islamic jihad, or "holy war."

"We are not going to tolerate this. We are going to ratchet up the fight against this sort of terrorism," he said. "The increase in radicalization is worse than we had thought."

Among measures under consideration is an emergency law to enable authorities to revoke the Dutch nationality of dual citizens suspected of terrorist activity so that they can be deported.

Mr. Zalm said the intelligence service, which already has expanded since the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks in the United States, would receive more funding to help it monitor potential terrorist recruits.

The suspected killer in the van Gogh case, a 26-year-old Dutch-Moroccan national, was arraigned on six terrorism-related charges.

Mr. van Gogh, a descendant of 19th-century Dutch painter Vincent van Gogh, was fatally shot and stabbed Tuesday while cycling down an Amsterdam street. The remains of the provocative social commentator and author, whose throat was slashed in the attack, will be cremated Tuesday in a public service.

The slaying is testing already strained relations between the ethnic Dutch population and the Muslim community. There are about 300,000 Moroccan immigrants in the Netherlands out of a population of 16 million.

Mr. Zalm said talks were ongoing with Muslim groups over how to avoid a violent backlash against Muslims.

Arsonists are believed to have set fire to a Masjid in the central Dutch city of Utrecht, police spokesman Peter Keijzers said. There were no reports of injuries.

Jozias van Aartsen, parliamentary speaker for the nationalist People's Party for Freedom and Democracy (VVD), the second-largest party in the government of Prime Minister Jan Peter Balkenende, issued a statement that called Mr. van Gogh's slaying tantamount to a declaration of war.

"The jihad has come to the Netherlands and a small group of jihadist terrorists is attacking the principles of our country," he said. "I hope the Netherlands will now move beyond denial and do what is fitting in a democracy  take action.

"These people don't want to change our society, they want to destroy it," he said.

The terrorist threat left by Mr. van Gogh's killer carries the ideology of a terrorist movement, Takfir wal Hijra or "Repentance and Flight," which advocates isolation from what it calls the sinful world, Dutch press reported.

Chief prosecutor Leo de Wit said the suspected killer, identified only as Mohammed B., faces at least six terrorism-related counts, including charges of murder and "participating in a criminal organization with terrorist characteristics."

The suspect, wounded in the leg in a shootout with police, has refused to talk to investigators. He was arrested with a note in his pocket titled "Drenched in Blood."

Authorities arrested eight other suspects in Mr. van Gogh's slaying and are looking into any links between the suspects and foreign terrorist groups.

Two suspects were released, Mr. de Wit said yesterday. Six will be charged with conspiring to commit murder, he said.

Prosecutors said all are Islamic radicals of North African ancestry. Four also were arrested Oct. 23 on suspicion of plotting a terrorist attack but were released for lack of evidence. Justice Minister Piet Hein Donner told parliament the four had contacts with a suspect in last year's Casablanca bombings.

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Peace Crystal Eyes,

 

 

However, on the bases of his death you can’t say that the murderer should be cursed. This is simply because he felt that law was not going to take action so he took it in his own hands.

 

So if Muslims do something that Christians or Jews or Hindus feel is blasphemous they have should not be condemned for taking the law into their own hands?

 

The law wasn't going to take action because the law shouldn't take action! It is not against the law to offend someone and anyone who kills someone because of it should be condemned by everyone, no ifs ands or buts.

 

Muslims keep saying he deserved it? No, he didn't. Using that logic then every time a Muslim insults another religion they deserve to be killed also.

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The issue of murder is black and white. It is wrong to take another human beings life. That simple. The murderer should be cursed because he broke this basic human law and now someone is dead. And for what? because he made a fictional 10 minute movie that someone found distasteful. A story that Theo Van Gogh didnt even write mind you. The story was written by a muslim woman.

 

Think about the implications that this murder would have on the public view of Islam now. I would never have heard or seen this movie unless the director was murdered. Think about how popular this movie is going to be now and how much worse Islam will look in the world. Once again, much like the case of Irshaad Manji and Salman Rushdie, muslims have shot themselves in the foot.

 

 

First let me correct your mistake, that woman, is not Muslim…she is kufar now, as she has put it!

 

O.k., if the case of killing someone is as black and white why is it that every year so many murders and rapist get away because they pleaded ‘not guilty’ or why is that mothers get away with abortion…that too is killing innocent lives or in your mind don’t such things not count because Muslims are not involved entirely?

 

 

peace

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O.k., if the case of killing someone is as black and white why is it that every year so many murders and rapist get away because they pleaded ‘not guilty’ or why is that mothers get away with abortion…that too is killing innocent lives or in your mind don’t such things not count because Muslims are not involved entirely?

 

Murderers and rapist get away because the plead 'not guilty'?!? I dont understand. That really doesn't happen very often. Or at least not at a rate that is worth noting. Having an abortion is completely different from physically murdering someone. Yes some believe that abortion is murder and the whole issue is highly debateable but noone can debate that it isn't wrong to physically and deliberately take someones life. Can you see the difference between having and abortion and stabbing someone 6 times and shooting him (as was done to Van Gogh)

 

But I dont want to debate the morality of abortions. The point of my post is that muslims dont need Theo Van Gogh to make them look bad. They are doing a fine job of doing that themselves. What makes Islam look worse? A made up 10 minute movie that shows rape victims, or the deliberate murder of a man, by a muslim, who suppoerted 2 muslim women being elected into Dutch office? You decide.

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peace,

 

shirazC you deliberately tried to divert from abortion...whether you like it or not abortion is just as bad...both people killed innocent people knowingly!

and yes many murders and rapist get away with pleading 'not guity' cause they have good lawyers.

 

Don't sit there judging what this Muslim man did as if no other nation has commited a sin!

 

 

 

peace out.

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The difference, Crystal Eyes, is that when someone gets away with murder because of their lawyer you don't see people saying "the person that got killed deserved it".

 

My question for Muslims is "did this man deserve to die for what he did?".

 

If you feel the answer is yes then say so.

 

If you feel the answer is no then say so without conditions.

 

 

Don't sit there judging what this Muslim man did as if no other nation has commited a sin!

 

I don't believe anyone has made this argument have they? This is something that you have projected on others because of how you feel, not because of any intention on the part of the posters.

 

Someone in the name of your religion has murdered someone in cold blood. Other people from your religion have come here and said that the man deserved it. Should your anger be at the ones who condemn the murder or the ones who condone it?

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Sulemaan,

 

Peace

 

I was expecting this question - Anyway, as I have said that untill I get you the correct english translation of his work, I cannot comment on the Sheikh's view on the Earth's rotation, more so because this letter is a clarification and not an explanation. However, assuming that the Sheikh did comment as such, it should be noted that there was no Fatawa or a religious edict stating that those who do not believe are unbelievers. In fact any Sheikh does not have the authority to make his fatawa a critereon of belief. This is against Islam, then how can we expect a noted Islamic Scholar to do it?

 

Regards,

I'll repeat what I said somewhat earlier :

The fact that you forgave me my perceived errors is, to me, rather more important than whether a venerable and respected (but still human and therefore fallible) scholar may have been incorrect in a minor doctrinal matter ten years ago.
And the rest of the comments on this forum are also more important.

 

But I still owe you a thousand thanks for your correction. I have issued a "you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_aebrain.blogspot(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/2004/11/retraction.html"]Retraction[/url] on my blog. A matter of personal intellectual honour, unconnected with the topic at hand.

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Peace,

 

Livius

 

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, so if my fellow brothers and sisters feel that this man deserved what he got, so be it…and yes all non-Muslims come here saying that what this Muslim man did is sickening when they themselves think that only Muslims commit murder…that is certainly what many posts imply!

 

Personally I don’t think the man deserved to die…what he did was wrong and if you scroll through the pages you’ll find my answer stating clearly!

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But you do the same .....and worse - you murder .

Please be carefull when you use the term "you". I can only assume u r directly referring to me. In which case, please double, triple check all the record u can find about me and u will not find any such thing against me. U have my full assurance :D

 

However, if u r asking y other muslims do so, then i would seriously advise u ask them, for i am no way responsible for their actions, no soul should bear the burden of another.

 

However, wouldnt u call it justice if ur whole family is killed by a person and the u avenge for it? If those muslims do that and not kill other innocent ppl for that person's action, then it can be categorised as justice. But that would be going off the topic if we discuss that on this thread.

 

Anyway, as i mentioned before, i do not think that person ought to have been killed.

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I think the muslim people have to realise they share the world with 5 billion other humans who are not muslim, you cant just kill people because they have an opinion of something, the killing of this INNOCENT man once again proves the wickedness and the irrationality of people brainwashed by religioin.

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Anti-Muslim Backlash in the Netherlands

 

So it begins. From "you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,11322044%255E1702,00.html"]The Australian[/url]

Three Dutch Masjids had been targeted in failed arson attempts at the weekend, reports said.

 

Police arrested three suspects as they tried to set fire to the An-Nasr Masjid in the western town of Huizen last Friday night.

 

Unidentified suspects also attempted to set fire to a Masjid in Breda in the south, although the fire had petered out by the time police reached the scene.

 

In Rotterdam, a palette was set alight at the Mevlana Masjid, but the fire did not spread. Pig heads and a placard with insulting slogans were nailed to the door of another Masjid in the port city.

 

Vandals also daubed red paint over a Moroccan associative building in Amsterdam at the weekend.

I don't care who did this, nor whether they were Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Shinto or whatever. This is wrong. No ifs, ands or buts.

 

That appears to be the difference between us. We don't care who did it. there's no "free pass" because someone is of the same religion - the question isn't even asked. Wrong is wrong, no matter who does it.

 

Is it as wrong as slitting the throat of someone you disagree with, or feel insulted by? That I leave up to the scholars. The Pigs heads mean that this was a deliberate and calculated insult to all Muslims everywhere. I'm Australian, not Dutch. But I extend what apologies are due to all Muslim readers of this forum, on behalf of the non-Muslim world, for this insult. It is against every tenet of Christianity. It is against every tenet of Judaism. It is against every tenet of Buddhism. It doesn't dishonour Islam though, it dishonours the rest of us instead. And we're not going to try to deny it, saying that it was Muslims who did it to try and make the rest of us look bad, nor that "No Jew would do such a thing" nor "No Christian would do that", nor "No real Buddhist would think of it - so it must have been a Muslim Conspiracy". Another difference between us.

 

It might be useful if other non-Muslims joined me in condemning this action too. Now is not the time for "trying to understand the arsonists view", it's the time for taking the sting out of the insult to people on this forum, none of whom (I remind you) had any connection to the murder. They are innocent. They have been grievously wronged. So let's say so.

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Anti-Muslim Backlash in the Netherlands

 

So it begins. From "you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,11322044%255E1702,00.html"]The Australian[/url]

I don't care who did this, nor whether they were Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Shinto or whatever. This is wrong. No ifs, ands or buts.

 

That appears to be the difference between us. We don't care who did it. there's no "free pass" because someone is of the same religion - the question isn't even asked. Wrong is wrong, no matter who does it.

 

Is it as wrong as slitting the throat of someone you disagree with, or feel insulted by?  That I leave up to the scholars.  The Pigs heads mean that this was a deliberate and calculated insult to all Muslims everywhere. I'm Australian, not Dutch. But I extend what apologies are due to all Muslim readers of this forum, on behalf of the non-Muslim world, for this insult. It is against every tenet of Christianity. It is against every tenet of Judaism. It is against every tenet of Buddhism. It doesn't dishonour Islam though, it dishonours the rest of us instead. And we're not going to try to deny it, saying that it was Muslims who did it to try and make the rest of us look bad, nor that "No Jew would do such a thing" nor "No Christian would do that", nor "No real Buddhist would think of it - so it must have been a Muslim Conspiracy". Another difference between us.

 

It might be useful if other non-Muslims joined me in condemning this action too. Now is not the time for "trying to understand the arsonists view", it's the time for taking the sting out of the insult to people on this forum, none of whom (I remind you) had any connection to the murder. They are innocent. They have been grievously wronged. So let's say so.

 

 

:D

 

interesting :D

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I'm Australian, not Dutch. But I extend what apologies are due to all Muslim readers of this forum, on behalf of the non-Muslim world, for this insult.

 

I don't believe anyone should apologize for something they didn't do.

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Peace aebrain and others,

 

Three Dutch Masjids had been targeted in failed arson attempts at the weekend, reports said.

 

Police arrested three suspects as they tried to set fire to the An-Nasr Masjid in the western town of Huizen last Friday night.

 

Unidentified suspects also attempted to set fire to a Masjid in Breda in the south, although the fire had petered out by the time police reached the scene.

 

In Rotterdam, a palette was set alight at the Mevlana Masjid, but the fire did not spread. Pig heads and a placard with insulting slogans were nailed to the door of another Masjid in the port city.

 

Vandals also daubed red paint over a Moroccan associative building in Amsterdam at the weekend.

 

I agree aebrain, whoever did this has been very badly brought up and are a shame to themselves and their families. I hope they're caught...

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