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Crunchy Cat

Ask An American Atheist Anything You Like!

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The verses you gave (27:18-19) are in of themselves proof that the Quran shows us that God gave Solomon the ability to communicate with insects.

 

18. Till, when they came to the valley of the ants, one of the ants said: "O ants! Enter your dwellings, lest Sulayman and his armies should crush you, while they perceive not.''

 

19. So he (Sulayman) smiled, amused at her speech and said: "My Lord! Grant me the power and ability that I may be grateful for Your favors which You have bestowed on me and on my parents, and that I may do righteous good deeds that will please You, and admit me by Your mercy among Your righteous servants.''

 

That fact that Sulayman was amused at the speech of the ant indicates that he understood what the ant said.

 

Thanks FirdawSeeker, I do understand that Solomon's amusment at the speech of the ant indicates he understood what it had said. What I don't see is the documentation where Solomon was given the paranormal ability to communicate with insects. He just kind of one day listened to ants. Unless that is documented somewhere, I have to presume the text is contradicting the reality of human->insect communication ability.

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History section, 2nd sentence, same article. How is that different?

 

I would be happy to break it down in a simple sequenc-of-events comparison:

 

Quran:

 

1) Smoke (smoke is tiny carbon particles resulting from burnt materials) and Earth already existed and overlapped.

2) An omnipotent life form asked both the smoke and Earth to come to him.

3) The smoke and Earth (being sentient life forms apparently) agreed.

4) The omnipotent life form separated the smoke and Earth into seven 'heavens' (with Earth remaining in the lowest 'heaven').

5) The omnipotent life form then adorned the Earth with the Sun and the galaxy / universe with other stars.

 

 

Reality:

 

1) Many stars and planets already existed.

2) Our sun formed and gravity pulled unused stellar material into a flat disk around the sun.

3) Gravity pulled chunks of the ring's stellar material together into clumps and planets formed (Earth being one of them).

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Here is what I found from Harun Yahyas website about it

 

Allah knows the truth.....

 

Thanks Vishah,

 

That is a pretty good explanation. Certainly if the ants were sentient life forms shape-shifted as ants then that would explain alot. It does of course beg the question, can anyone show me a real live Jinn? If they are extinct, then what about Jinn fossils? A life form that can change its shape so drastically is going to have some very interesting DNA... revolutionary I would presume.

 

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Asking for fossils of Jinns is the same as asking for fossils of intelligence, or thinking of a person who lived a 1000 years ago..

 

We cannot see Jinn .....

 

What I know about Jinn is that they are made from smoke less fire....

 

Surathu Rahman Chapter 55 vers verse 15

15. And He created Jinns from fire free of smoke:

 

I think if you see a Jinn in its real shape, may be you are not going to post in gawaher after that... We might have to go and meet you at a phsycological care center .. heheheh ....

 

 

You might be also interested in this if you are so fond of Jinns .... :sl:

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetharunyahya(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/Quran_translation/Quran_translation72.php"]Surathu Jinn Chapter 72[/url]

Edited by vishah

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Asking for fossils of Jinns is the same as asking for fossils of intelligence, or thinking of a person who lived a 1000 years ago..

 

Why can't we see Jinn? Wouldn't the death of a Jinn leave bones behind (I am assuming their natural form has bones).

 

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Its ur assumption .... and assumtions arent always correct..

For example, if I say Tea is made from water, sugar and tea leaves, and if you assume that it will have flash and bones then I dont know what to say... :sl:

 

I have given you the answers directly and from what it was created....

 

.. and please refrain from quoting the full text to reply to a part of it... also take some time to read forum rules

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Crunchy Cat,

 

I have been reading the posts very carefully and observing the responses that you have been giving as well as the responses you have been receiving. I have found that throughout the posts you have continuously been asking us for evidence to point to the existence of the Creator, and we, unfortunately, have not been very forthcoming.

 

Well, fair enough. I believe that you are entitled to that. For Muslims, Iman (Faith) is not the blind acceptance of conjecture. It is the acceptance and belief in the clear evidence that is presented. This is opposed to kufr (disbelief) which is the utter denial and rejection of that evidence.

 

As for the evidence of Allah's existence, the problem is not in a lack of evidence, the problem is in not knowing where to begin. Absolutely everything within the Universe is a clear and apparent sign of the existence of the Creator. The Earth and all that it contains, the Sun, the Moon, the Stars, the countless variety of plants and animals that inhabit this Earth, all point to the existence of the Creator. The fact that you developed and were fashioned out of a lowly sticky substance into an advanced, multi-functioning, walking, talking human being with eyes, ears, and the ability to communicate using advanced language, is in of itself a living miracle/proof/evidence/sign of Allah's existence as well as His Power, Ability, Knowledge, Wisdom, and Skill.

 

If you want evidence, then go look in a mirror. Go look outside. Go look anywhere and see and observe the countless number of living, animate beings that exist in this world and how far more advanced even the most simple of these beings are to even the most advanced man-made technology that exists in this world today. If all of mankind gathered together to produce even the like of a fly with all of their sophisticated technology and resources they would not be able to do so. Yet, you deny that these things have a Creator?

 

But, what good is evidence? What good is it, if the one it is presented to rejects it and refuses to believe in it? Even the most compelling evidence will not convince one who persists upon stubbornly rejecting the Truth. We are told in the Quran that Pharoah rejected Moses even after he saw with his own eyes the sea being split by him, so it does not surprise me if you were to reject the other clear and apparent signs that are literally in front of your face every single day.

 

Like I said before, Iman (Faith) is the belief in Allah's Signs. The Signs that we all see and hear everyday. It is through reflecting upon these Signs that one is able to get a feel for His Omnipotence, His Majesty, His Power, Knowledge, Wisdom, and Skill. It is then (and only then) that one becomes humble before his/her Creator and then realizes the ultimate Truth: that there is no deity worthy of worship except for the Creator.

 

Kufr (disbelief) on the other hand is the rejection of that which is apparent. The denial of the obvious and clear signs that constantly surround one. Kufr in Arabic is also related to the Arabic word for ingratitude. Ingratitude towards Allah in spite of all that He has given you.

 

What I invite you to is to turn away from kufr and to turn towards iman. I invite you to accept and believe in the clear signs that are presented before you. I invite you to be grateful to Allah for all of the countless favors that He has given you and to not be ungrateful to Him. I invite you to worship Him and Him alone. If you do so you will be forgiven for all of your past sins and you will start anew. If on the other hand you turn away and refuse and die in your rejection then know that Allah has promised Hell for those who are too ungrateful and too arrogant to serve Him.

 

I hope and pray that Allah Guides you as well as myself

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Vishah,

 

Let me phrase it another way. Is there an objective evidence that Jinn exist or have ever existed? I am not aware of any life form living on Earth that leaves no trace of its existence in life or death (especially considering how many people are on Earth to find such things).

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FirdawsSeeker,

 

Everything you presented is evidence of the existence of those items. When you say look around, I see evidence of all those things I am 'seeing'. Ex. Seeing a tree is evidence that a tree exists. Seeing a dog is evidence that a dog exists. Seeing a star is evidence a star exists. What the examples you presented are not evidence for is an omnipotent life form. I can psychologically project human qualities onto anything I want and everything becomes magical and sentient in my mind, but that is anthropomorphism.

 

Maybe part of the issue is that it is not understood how to provide evidence that a life form exists. There is the direct way which is simply to produce an instance of it and there is an indirect way which is to provide an instance of a demonstratable effect of it. Take prayer for example. Most monotheistic omnipotent life forms will grant prayers that completely defy the laws of reality (miracles). Show me prayer working in such a fashion. Pray a retarded person intelligent, pray a tree into solid diamond, pray someone's amputated limb back, etc.

Edited by Crunchy Cat

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I would be happy to break it down in a simple sequenc-of-events comparison:

 

Quran:

 

1) Smoke (smoke is tiny carbon particles resulting from burnt materials) and Earth already existed and overlapped.

2) An omnipotent life form asked both the smoke and Earth to come to him.

3) The smoke and Earth (being sentient life forms apparently) agreed.

4) The omnipotent life form separated the smoke and Earth into seven 'heavens' (with Earth remaining in the lowest 'heaven').

5) The omnipotent life form then adorned the Earth with the Sun and the galaxy / universe with other stars.

Reality:

 

1) Many stars and planets already existed.

2) Our sun formed and gravity pulled unused stellar material into a flat disk around the sun.

3) Gravity pulled chunks of the ring's stellar material together into clumps and planets formed (Earth being one of them).

 

Indeed that is one of the definitions of smoke. Other definitions include:

 

1. the visible vapor and gases given off by a burning or smoldering substance, esp. the gray, brown, or blackish mixture of gases and suspended carbon particles resulting from the combustion of wood, peat, coal, or other organic matter. (As you said)

2. something resembling this, as vapor or mist, flying particles, etc.

3. Physics, Chemistry. a system of solid particles suspended in a gaseous medium.

 

So, there is no contradiction between the two

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Indeed that is one of the definitions of smoke. Other definitions include:

 

1. the visible vapor and gases given off by a burning or smoldering substance, esp. the gray, brown, or blackish mixture of gases and suspended carbon particles resulting from the combustion of wood, peat, coal, or other organic matter. (As you said)

2. something resembling this, as vapor or mist, flying particles, etc.

3. Physics, Chemistry. a system of solid particles suspended in a gaseous medium.

 

So, there is no contradiction between the two

 

Which definition is the Quran using? Also, whatever definition is chosen it doesn't magically make the Quaran sequence of events vs. the reality sequence the same or even similar. The difference is quite immense.

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How dont know how to say....

 

Those who goes lunatic is one evidence ..... I have seen one with my both eyes and have heard many such stories, and how they got cured... and have even met a person who was once lunatic ... but not now...

 

Someone was kidding that i was looking like a Jinn... and that women stared at me seriously and said ... no you are not.....

 

However, the Quran says its enough for a believer, to believe, but as per you, I can understand your situation...........

 

One more thing... How about, concentrating on one common topic rather than debating several in one single thread... I think it will be a better idea.... You come up with a topic and we will continue until we settle down....

Also, please take time to understand and to think about the responses you get... and then come up with a reasonable argument...

 

Vishah

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Which definition is the Quran using? Also, whatever definition is chosen it doesn't magically make the Quaran sequence of events vs. the reality sequence the same or even similar. The difference is quite immense.

 

Quran events vs Reality?

 

Quran is reality.

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Which definition is the Quran using? Also, whatever definition is chosen it doesn't magically make the Quaran sequence of events vs. the reality sequence the same or even similar. The difference is quite immense.

 

No, it isn't.

 

2. something resembling this, as vapor or mist, flying particles, etc.

 

Anything that resembles the definition that you provided could also be considered 'smoke', such as the interstellar dust or gas that the stars are made out of. I got this from a pdf book titled

"The Bible, The Quran, and Science", by Dr. Maurice Bucaille. I can send it to you if you would like.

 

"The basic process in the formation of the Universe therefore lay in the condensation of material in the primary nebula followed by its division into fragments that originally constituted galactic masses. The latter in their turn split up into stars that provided the sub-product of the process, i.e. the planets. These successive separations left among the groups of principle elements what one might perhaps call 'remains'. Their more scientific name is 'interstellar galactic material'. It has been described in various ways; there are bright nebulae that reflect the light received from other stars and are perhaps composed of 'dusts' or 'smokes', to use the terminology of experts in astrophysics, and then there are the dark nebulae that are less dense, consisting of interstellar material that is even more modest, known for its tendency to interfere with photometric measurements in astronomy."

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The jinn are of the unseen. They are made of a different substance then ourselves so they do not have bones. Then can however, change shape and take the appearance of human beings as well as other animals. They have the ability to choose between good and evil just like we do. We consider the devil (iblis) to be one of them. They sometimes possess human beings and they are frequently called upon by magicians. We believe in them because they are mentioned in the Quran.

 

The ants that Solomon spoke to were not jinn. It is automatically understood from the Quran that whatever ability a human being possesses whether it is extraordinary or not is something that Allah gives to a person. From the Quranic standpoint, my sight and hearing and everything else that I possess come from Allah. Therefore, the Quran simply mentioning that Solomon could speak to the ants is automatically understood that Allah gave him the power to speak to the ants.

 

If you like I can give you verses that proof this.

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:sl:

 

I wouldn't listen to Harun Yahya too much... in fact I wouldn't listen to him at all.

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How dont know how to say....

 

Those who goes lunatic is one evidence ..... I have seen one with my both eyes and have heard many such stories, and how they got cured... and have even met a person who was once lunatic ... but not now...

 

How do you distinush between a lunatic whom is a Jinn and someone whom is simply mentally ill? Consequently, are all Jinn lunatics? I would imagine it would be difficult to sustain a species if all members were insane.

 

Someone was kidding that i was looking like a Jinn... and that women stared at me seriously and said ... no you are not.....

 

What was she looking for when staring?

 

However, the Quran says its enough for a believer, to believe, but as per you, I can understand your situation...........

 

It's not really a situation / issue for me as reality agrees with my worldview.

 

One more thing... How about, concentrating on one common topic rather than debating several in one single thread... I think it will be a better idea.... You come up with a topic and we will continue until we settle down....

Also, please take time to understand and to think about the responses you get... and then come up with a reasonable argument...

 

Vishah

 

The intent of the thread is to allow anyone to explore the mind of an American Atheist (myself) with Q&A. It has been my experience that in an open question situation, forcing a topic can be restrictive. I would however be happy to suggest questions to ask (maybe to get the ideas flowing).

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No, it isn't.

 

2. something resembling this, as vapor or mist, flying particles, etc.

 

Anything that resembles the definition that you provided could also be considered 'smoke', such as the interstellar dust or gas that the stars are made out of. I got this from a pdf book titled

"The Bible, The Quran, and Science", by Dr. Maurice Bucaille. I can send it to you if you would like.

 

"The basic process in the formation of the Universe therefore lay in the condensation of material in the primary nebula followed by its division into fragments that originally constituted galactic masses. The latter in their turn split up into stars that provided the sub-product of the process, i.e. the planets. These successive separations left among the groups of principle elements what one might perhaps call 'remains'. Their more scientific name is 'interstellar galactic material'. It has been described in various ways; there are bright nebulae that reflect the light received from other stars and are perhaps composed of 'dusts' or 'smokes', to use the terminology of experts in astrophysics, and then there are the dark nebulae that are less dense, consisting of interstellar material that is even more modest, known for its tendency to interfere with photometric measurements in astronomy."

 

Which definition of smoke is being used? Show me where the Quaran specifies it. Also like I said, regardless of the definition the difference is immense and as you have not been able to see that, let me show you a tiny subset of the obvious differences:

 

Quran:

 

1) Smoke (smoke is tiny carbon particles resulting from burnt materials) and Earth already existed and overlapped.

2) An omnipotent life form asked both the smoke and Earth to come to him.

3) The smoke and Earth (being sentient life forms apparently) agreed.

4) The omnipotent life form separated the smoke and Earth into seven 'heavens' (with Earth remaining in the lowest 'heaven').

5) The omnipotent life form then adorned the Earth with the Sun and the galaxy / universe with other stars.

 

 

Reality:

 

1) Many stars and planets already existed.

2) Our sun formed and gravity pulled unused stellar material into a flat disk around the sun.

3) Gravity pulled chunks of the ring's stellar material together into clumps and planets formed (Earth being one of them).

 

 

Differences:

 

A ) The Earth exists before the Sun and other stars in the Quaran. Other stars and the Sun exist before Earth in reality.

B ) Stellar material and the Earth are sentient life forms in the Quaran. Stellar material and the Earth are not life forms in reality.

Edited by Crunchy Cat

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The jinn are of the unseen... Then can however, change shape and take the appearance of human beings as well as other animals.

 

Doesn't that strike you as a contradiction?

 

 

They are made of a different substance then ourselves so they do not have bones... Then can however, change shape and take the appearance of human beings as well as other animals.

 

How do they do that without bones? What different substance exactly are they made out of? Where are the remnants of this mystery sustance from dead Jinn?

 

 

They have the ability to choose between good and evil just like we do.

 

What are 'good' and 'evil' objectively?

 

 

We consider the devil (iblis) to be one of them.

 

Is there any objective evidence that 'iblis' exists?

 

 

They sometimes possess human beings and they are frequently called upon by magicians.

 

Is there any objective evidence that Jinn exist and posess humans? Is there any objective evidence that magic exists and that it can be used to summon Jinns?

 

 

We believe in them because they are mentioned in the Quran.

 

Doesn't it strike you odd at the absence of evidence for the things you accept as true?

 

 

The ants that Solomon spoke to were not jinn.

 

They were just super-sentient ants then capable of individual and group recognition of human action and intent?

 

It is automatically understood from the Quran that whatever ability a human being possesses whether it is extraordinary or not is something that Allah gives to a person. From the Quranic standpoint, my sight and hearing and everything else that I possess come from Allah. Therefore, the Quran simply mentioning that Solomon could speak to the ants is automatically understood that Allah gave him the power to speak to the ants.

 

If you like I can give you verses that proof this.

 

So basically you're saying that you can show me a verse that says whenever something that contradicts reality occurs without it being documented that 'Allah' made it so, its is to be assumed the reason is because 'Allah' made it so. Sure, show me the verse.

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brother you are trying to talk your way by people when you think its reality , when that by sequence is out of border .. you can fly in space but your still in the picture , until you see what the truth is by not observing but by deobserving your observation inside the factors of self and upon the gratitude of Unfaithed Faith ,

brother , for a study more into the way athiests see life is a study of selfs logic to an extent of no end of the observation ,...

 

please reconsider of my information which can help you attain truth and get your grip back to the picture of its picture , because brother if you have to observe and be logical i can give you verses of truth that tells us why muslims we should stop this because it can get to shrk means to disbelieve like you for instance :sl: .. to get back is a way ., its hard , but its how you will clarify it then try to defend yourself from all these sinful negative Satanic Thoughts ( Shaytan ) , which makes you have this .. this is what he wants Satan wants you to lose ..

 

when i put the concept of satan right now your observing in an inexplicable matter , i know

 

thats why we muslims Alhamdilel Allah we have this border that tells us what we are .. and why we are in this life .

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Reality doesn't agree :sl:.

 

You mean 'You don't Agree'. :sl:

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Doesn't that strike you as a contradiction?

 

Jinn are of the unseen world, much like angels are. What is the unseen world? It is the world that human beings cannot see. There are jinn and angels all around us at all times, but although they can see us, we cannot see them. However, some jinn have the abilities to enter our world by turning into animal forms and to some extent, human forms (Satan for example had the abilities to look human).

 

Explain to me where the contradiction is?

 

How do they do that without bones? What different substance exactly are they made out of? Where are the remnants of this mystery sustance from dead Jinn?

 

Where are their remnants? Did you miss the part about the unseen world?

 

Also, humanity was given limited information. Don't expect to know every little detail about them.

 

What are 'good' and 'evil' objectively?

 

Good is what God prescribed for us in the Qur'an, and bad is what He warned against. I think we'd need an entirely different topic if we wanted to discuss all the things that are good and all that are bad.

 

Is there any objective evidence that 'iblis' exists?

 

Yep! The Qur'an.

 

To flip this coin, is there any objective evidence that he does not exist?

 

Is there any objective evidence that Jinn exist and posess humans? Is there any objective evidence that magic exists and that it can be used to summon Jinns?

 

The Qur'an and the Hadiths.

 

Is there objective evidence that proves none of the above are true?

 

Doesn't it strike you odd at the absence of evidence for the things you accept as true?

 

Do you seek to insult by calling the Qur'an a lack of evidence?

 

And what exactly do you mean that the Qur'an is not evidence? It is the word of God and anything that is in it is the truth without a doubt. Whether you choose to disbelieve is your prerogative.

 

They were just super-sentient ants then capable of individual and group recognition of human action and intent?

 

1) Are you saying that if I go charging towards an ant hill, the ants will not be alarmed and escape harm's way? It is, after all, the nature of living things to sense danger and to react appropriately to it.

 

2) Have you forgotten that Sulaiman is a prophet? Prophets are recognized by animals and even lesser creatures.

 

15. And indeed We gave knowledge to Dawud and Sulayman, and they both said: "All praise be to Allah, Who has preferred us above many of His believing servants!''

16. And Sulayman inherited from Dawud. He said: "O mankind! We have been taught the language of birds, and we have been given from everything. This, verily, is an evident grace.''

17. And there were gathered before Sulayman his hosts of Jinn and men, and birds, and they all were set in battle order (marching forward).

18. Till, when they came to the valley of the ants, one of the ants said: "O ants! Enter your dwellings, lest Sulayman and his armies should crush you, while they perceive not.''

19. So he (Sulayman) smiled, amused at her speech and said: "My Lord! Grant me the power and ability that I may be grateful for Your favors which You have bestowed on me and on my parents, and that I may do righteous good deeds that will please You, and admit me by Your mercy among Your righteous servants.''

 

One of the ants perceived that an army was approaching. The ant recongnized that its leader was a prophet of God. It warned the other ants to get inside their dwellings, in case they were trampled by Sulaiman and his army who, the ant thought, would never be able to see the ants.

 

So basically you're saying that you can show me a verse that says whenever something that contradicts reality occurs without it being documented that 'Allah' made it so, its is to be assumed the reason is because 'Allah' made it so. Sure, show me the verse.

 

Can you disprove that prophet Sulaiman spoke to ants? So who are you to preach about what reality is and what contradicts it?

 

From what I'm reading, you consider reality to be anything in your limited view of this world. You believe what you know is the reality, and what you don't is not.

 

We do not need to prove anything to atheists. Our duty is only to teach. If they want evidence, then I'm still waiting on the evidence that disproves the existance of God, to begin with.

 

Salam.

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What i am about to show you is good solid evidence that Islam is true. And i am ASKING you to check it out unless you fear of becoming a muslim.

 

It is 135 pages or more all about Islam but the first 44 is the one you should concetrate the most on. any ways check it out!!!

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetbadongo(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/file/5605438"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetbadongo(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/file/5605438[/url]

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What i am about to show you is good solid evidence that Islam is true. And i am ASKING you to check it out unless you fear of becoming a muslim.

 

It is 135 pages or more all about Islam but the first 44 is the one you should concetrate the most on. any ways check it out!!!

 

you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetbadongo(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/file/5605438

 

 

Hey, believer6

Would you be able to send me a copy of that PDF. I tried to go through that link but it only gave me one try and I was unable to download it. My email is FirdawsSeeker84[at]gmail(contact admin if its a beneficial link)

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