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Crunchy Cat

Ask An American Atheist Anything You Like!

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Sure here is another Link. I would put it in PDF but i dont know how.

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetbadongo(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/file/5622212"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetbadongo(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/file/5622212[/url]

Edited by believer6

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PropellerAds
brother you are trying to talk your way by people when you think its reality , when that by sequence is out of border .. you can fly in space but your still in the picture , until you see what the truth is by not observing but by deobserving your observation inside the factors of self and upon the gratitude of Unfaithed Faith ,

brother , for a study more into the way athiests see life is a study of selfs logic to an extent of no end of the observation ,...

 

If I am not mistaken, this message basically said evaluating truth based on evidence is bad and evaluating truth based on how it makes you feel is good. If this is correct then it makes sense as many people value their psychological needs over truth.

 

please reconsider of my information which can help you attain truth and get your grip back to the picture of its picture , because brother if you have to observe and be logical i can give you verses of truth that tells us why muslims we should stop this because it can get to shrk means to disbelieve like you for instance :sl: .. to get back is a way ., its hard , but its how you will clarify it then try to defend yourself from all these sinful negative Satanic Thoughts ( Shaytan ) , which makes you have this .. this is what he wants Satan wants you to lose ..

 

when i put the concept of satan right now your observing in an inexplicable matter , i know

 

thats why we muslims Alhamdilel Allah we have this border that tells us what we are .. and why we are in this life .

 

Logic, observation, evidence, and thoughts all the above are the result of an 'evil' life form? Wow, that's an interesting way to devalue education and inquiry.

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You mean 'You don't Agree'. :sl:

 

It honestly doesn't matter whether I agree or disagree. It does matter if Reality does or doesn't. Truth is the conformity of a concept or notion in the mind to actual reality.

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:sl: brother

 

brother you will agree with my explaination maybe not now but later ,i like when you give explainations from your logic its nice to hear it in ( cartridged ) game , and that will result in an error .

im afraid to say your understanding of my comments is hard because of the remedie that is it and its hard for you to remedise the infection that is in your heart , when you dont want to support with the remedie. however, i like to tell you that i will go step by step , i thought the infection is weak like the many others that i fixed with 2 great comments .. you need 8 comments or less for your situation, i will start with you but remember the agreement brother.

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Jinn are of the unseen world, much like angels are. What is the unseen world? It is the world that human beings cannot see. There are jinn and angels all around us at all times, but although they can see us, we cannot see them. However, some jinn have the abilities to enter our world by turning into animal forms and to some extent, human forms (Satan for example had the abilities to look human).

 

Explain to me where the contradiction is?

 

Where are their remnants? Did you miss the part about the unseen world?

 

It has conceptually moved since your last assertion. The current assertion states that Jinn exist in a separate unseen world yet they are all around us and can see us. How can they be all around us and interact with photons if they are in a separate world? If Jinn can enter our world in animal and semi-human form, where are the Jinn whom died in those forms in our world? Their skeletal structure would obviously be very different for starters. Where are all the entry points of the Jinn entering our world? It would likely take an enormous amount of energy and there would be lots of remnants left over from entry and exit.

 

Also, humanity was given limited information. Don't expect to know every little detail about them.

 

You mean in all this time, humanity has learned more about innumerable life forms but not Jinn?

 

 

Good is what God prescribed for us in the Qur'an, and bad is what He warned against. I think we'd need an entirely different topic if we wanted to discuss all the things that are good and all that are bad.

 

'Good' and 'Bad' then are then a laundry list documented in the Quran? Do they exist as objective features of reality or are they simply words in a book?

 

 

Yep! The Qur'an.

 

To flip this coin, is there any objective evidence that he does not exist?

 

The Quran is evidence that a book exist. Evidence of 'iblis' the life form would be an instance of it directly or a direct instance of its unique effects. And yes there is objective evidence that 'iblis' does not exist. Simply put, the claim 'iblis exists' has been around since the Quran and since that time, there has been zero supportive evidence of that claim. That absence of evidence of a long period of time (a massive sample size) becomes evidence of absence.

 

 

The Qur'an and the Hadiths.

 

Is there objective evidence that proves none of the above are true?

 

The Quran and Hadiths are evidence books exist. And the answer to your question is the same as above.

 

Do you seek to insult by calling the Qur'an a lack of evidence?

 

I seek to point out that some of the fantastic claims presented in the Quran have no corresponding phenomena in reality. Truth is the conformity of a concept or notion to actual reality. Evidence is a demonstration supporting that a given reality is valid.

 

And what exactly do you mean that the Qur'an is not evidence? It is the word of God and anything that is in it is the truth without a doubt. Whether you choose to disbelieve is your prerogative.

 

I meant the Quran makes some wild claims about rather fantastic life forms and places, yet there is no objective evidence supporting those claims. Don't you find that odd?

 

1) Are you saying that if I go charging towards an ant hill, the ants will not be alarmed and escape harm's way? It is, after all, the nature of living things to sense danger and to react appropriately to it.

 

That's not what I am saying however, I know the answer to that question already. The ants will not move out of the way if you are charging towards them. They might freak out if you step on them but likely they will try to attack you instead of escaping (they are kind of stupid that way). What I was saying is that an ant doesn't have the mental capacity to distinguish between humans, identify them by name, and identify groups of humans with specific uniforms and tools as being an army.

 

 

<CONTINUED...>

Edited by Crunchy Cat

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2) Have you forgotten that Sulaiman is a prophet? Prophets are recognized by animals and even lesser creatures.

 

15. And indeed We gave knowledge to Dawud and Sulayman, and they both said: "All praise be to Allah, Who has preferred us above many of His believing servants!''

16. And Sulayman inherited from Dawud. He said: "O mankind! We have been taught the language of birds, and we have been given from everything. This, verily, is an evident grace.''

17. And there were gathered before Sulayman his hosts of Jinn and men, and birds, and they all were set in battle order (marching forward).

18. Till, when they came to the valley of the ants, one of the ants said: "O ants! Enter your dwellings, lest Sulayman and his armies should crush you, while they perceive not.''

19. So he (Sulayman) smiled, amused at her speech and said: "My Lord! Grant me the power and ability that I may be grateful for Your favors which You have bestowed on me and on my parents, and that I may do righteous good deeds that will please You, and admit me by Your mercy among Your righteous servants.''

 

One of the ants perceived that an army was approaching. The ant recongnized that its leader was a prophet of God. It warned the other ants to get inside their dwellings, in case they were trampled by Sulaiman and his army who, the ant thought, would never be able to see the ants.

 

Sorry, where is the line that stated 'God' gave ants (or even insects) the magical ability to identify prophets (by name no doubt)?

 

 

Can you disprove that prophet Sulaiman spoke to ants? So who are you to preach about what reality is and what contradicts it?

 

Actually I can. I can prove that humans cannot communicate with ants, ants have no concept of human identity, ants cannot distuish the functions of different groups of humans, and that there is no section of the Quran that explicitly states Solomon was given a magical ability to communicate with insects.

 

From what I'm reading, you consider reality to be anything in your limited view of this world. You believe what you know is the reality, and what you don't is not.

 

That's an interesting interpretation. Incorrect but interesting.

 

We do not need to prove anything to atheists. Our duty is only to teach.

 

Does it bother you that some of what are teaching would be considered objectively false by reality?

 

If they want evidence, then I'm still waiting on the evidence that disproves the existance of God, to begin with.

 

If we're talking about the concept of a generic omnipotent life form than nobody can prove a negative in that situation as there is no concrete detail. If however we add detail from a specific claim of 'God' (take 'Allah' for example) then proving its non-existence is fairly simple (even though technically the onus of proof is solely on the claimant). I'll make this proof a little more detailed than previous examples:

 

* The claim of 'God' has existed since any history has been recorded. Since that time, there has been zero supportive evidence of that claim.

 

* There are loads of objective assertions made in any scripture (i.e. 'word' of 'God'). A huge amount of those have been directly proven incorrect through science.

 

* There are loads of contradictory statements made by scripture. Reality does not support contradicton.

 

* Humans naturally anthropmorphize... that is take human features and put it them on *something*. This gives rise to talking toasters, bugs bunny, mother nature, father time, and of course 'God' (putting human features on reality).

 

* Humans psychologically want infalllible authority figures giving them approval. They psychologically want to have a great relationship with themselves. They psychologically want to group together and be 'purposed'. 'God' becomes that authority figure, becomes a proxy between the consious and unconscious (for establishing a relationship with yourself), and becomes the source of a purposing.

 

* Humans are genetically prone to 'believe' as it is a survival requirement to make quick decisions with incomplete information or to accept what the 'group' accepts to gain their support and resources.

 

All these facts serve as very strong supportive evidence that specific man-made claims of 'God' aren't real.

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What i am about to show you is good solid evidence that Islam is true. And i am ASKING you to check it out unless you fear of becoming a muslim.

 

It is 135 pages or more all about Islam but the first 44 is the one you should concetrate the most on. any ways check it out!!!

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetbadongo(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/file/5605438"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetbadongo(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/file/5605438[/url]

 

Thanks believer6. Does the document's text provide evidence for the existence of paranormal life forms? If so, I would be happy to give it a look.

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:sl: brother

 

brother you will agree with my explaination maybe not now but later ,i like when you give explainations from your logic its nice to hear it in ( cartridged ) game , and that will result in an error .

 

I am glad to hear that you've liked my input :sl:.

 

 

im afraid to say your understanding of my comments is hard because of the remedie that is it and its hard for you to remedise the infection that is in your heart , when you dont want to support with the remedie. however, i like to tell you that i will go step by step , i thought the infection is weak like the many others that i fixed with 2 great comments .. you need 8 comments or less for your situation, i will start with you but remember the agreement brother.

 

I find it immensly interesting that my world-view is considered an infection. What would you say my heart is infected with?

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i knew you would ask that question , but the infection is called the sickness of the heart . :sl:

 

your not happy in life untilyou know the truth you will see how we muslims see life soon :sl:

 

 

i know what will happen in the start ... you will be angry from all of us because we didnt put much effort with you ,

because we didnt say it in the right way of what you think is right...

then you will be exhorting other people to truth , and others who may not listen ..you might / will beat them if they dont listen... and try to sacrifice pain for them..

 

but i hope once you see the truth you will wait and have patience with learning more rather then exploit this unremarkable unbiased feeling in this world ... the reality the word reality of the reality !!!!.

 

i know when some1 handles such thing to himself he will want others to know rather then them go to the wrong path.

 

what are we doing now is for the world benefit

Edited by alsheeba

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i knew you would ask that question , but the infection is called the sickness of the heart . :sl:

 

What is it?

 

your not happy in life untilyou know the truth...

 

Well that's not true right out of the gate. I am happy with the quality and quantity of truth I know. I also am excited at the discovery of new truth.

 

...you will see how we muslims see life soon :no:

 

Cool, it will be interesting to see how that compares and contrasts with other beliefs.

 

i know what will happen in the start ... you will be angry from all of us because we didnt put much effort with you ,

because we didnt say it in the right way of what you think is right...

 

I haven't been angry with anyone yet :sl:; allthough, a few others have felt frustrated and possibly insulted by me.

 

then you will be exhorting other people to truth , and others who may not listen ..you might / will beat them if they dont listen... and try to sacrifice pain for them..

 

Truth (when its known) stands on its own. It can be shown to people and I can't control whether it makes someone feel pleasure, neutrality, or pain.

 

but i hope once you see the truth you will wait and have patience with learning more rather then exploit this unremarkable unbiased feeling in this world ... the reality the word reality of the reality !!!!.

 

I'm all ears if you have any interesting truths to share.

 

i know when some1 handles such thing to himself he will want others to know rather then them go to the wrong path.

 

what are we doing now is for the world benefit

 

I can understand that.

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hmm i think you dont get me , its probably the leak . :sl: no worries brother

i will try my best to close that leak soon..

 

 

i know your happy but only in brain :no: my prespective is to make you understand how we understand , many of my brothers tried with you but your being very resisting by such ignorance glitch or maybe you want the finalday to come to see it in your eyes and words wont satisfy you until then.

know 1 thing , try not to overcome brain powers to use them for the intensiveness of visuals and imaginations , because when ( faith ) comes you must know you have a limit :j: this limit is for the people when they know and have faith , and then here we're fear and love comes. and here when you will know that you cant think more because of your limits ,.. and here you will understand and must understand that you cananot do anything but pray and thank Allah for everything.

 

dont be out side the picture brother :D

:sl:

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In this case, the "painter" would be God, and the questions are answered in His revelations. You claiming that the world just somehow came to be, or always was, isn't based on anything but a human guess.

Of course, there is no reason to suppose that the Earth was at all 'designed' or 'created' by any specific force. There is great reason to presume cause and effect regarding its conception but there is no reason to suppose any directed effort otherwise known as design.

 

It is just a guess to claim that God created it, and it is a guess supported by no objective evidence.

 

We are the creation, the only true knowledge we have is the knowledge which has been revealed to us from God... you have to understand that human knowledge is limited. If I were to ask you what happens when you die - you couldn't answer me because you haven't yet reached that stage in life.

There is no doubt that we are fallible. But there is also no reason to presume the infallible.

 

If you claim that the world created itself, or just was "there", then please show me how that complies with the rules of this earth. Give me an example of something that just happened to come into existence, or always existed.

Neither is true. The world did not create itself and it has not been for all eternity. It was however, caused.

 

No offence, but it doesn't take a genious to work out that you're ideology is flawed. If you are a man of science and logic, then why are you not keeping to the facts - everything has a creator, they just do not somehow create themselves.

Except that not everything does have creator. Where is the logic in declaring that everything has a creator?

 

Most followers of atheism seem to laugh at the idea of religion. Yet however illogical you find God and faith, look at what you are following... it's no more logical than how you perceive religion to be.

I dislike the term 'followers of Atheism'. Atheists are just what we call people who disbelieve in God.

 

Now, in relation to your question, Suppersion... yes, EVERYTHING does have a Creator - feel free to try and prove me wrong. It's a rule, everything around us was created. In the world we live in, things don't appear out of nothing. HOWEVER, these rules are for the creation, not the CREATOR.

And there we have it, by divine decree you declare that your conception of God is not answerable to your own logic. You have negated your own principles and you rendered God arbitrary. Why do you think that the above at all sounds reasonable? Why could an Atheist with equal resilience not simply declare that the universe is eternal?

 

Moreover, there is no such thing as proof (only evidence and reason) and not everything is created. Everything is caused but not necessarily created.

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Blaise Pascal a 17th century mathematician said ‘’ it’s safer to believe in god because the consequences of not believing are too terrible to comprehend’’ the only way to know if god really existents in your case would be to die, and that unfortunately is too late to save your self.

 

Galileo Galilei whom had a major role in the scientific evolution you atheists so proudly embrace over the true lord, said:

‘’ the Holy Scripture teaches us how to go to heaven not how the heavens go’’

God created this universe and every thing in it; he created the laws of physics and left them for us to uncover. Science might have explained many facts but I dare you to bring us one human discovery with absolute proof that contraindicates what the holy Quran said 15 centuries ago!

 

Do you know what science original sin is? Its absolute certainty, with the human mind being limited our comprehension of things around us can always be as imperfect as our selves. Newton one of the great fathers of modern science said ‘’ the universe is created by a great mechanic, god’’

And don’t tell us that those great minds jumped to conclusions and filled the gaps they didn’t know back then by saying its gods doing. Those scientists didn’t discover new laws and prove dissuaded theories by denouncing god.

 

About Darwinism just because it contraindicates the bible does not mean it contra indicates the holy Quran. First of all remember that Darwin’s work is called the THEORY of evolution and it’s still a theory which makes it open for corrections and defections. I think we are at a point where you can’t say that Darwin’s theory is entirely incorrect but you still cant say that it entirely is! Let’s take the world’s creation event by the lord which took 7 days according to Islam, well when you say that all we see today was created in 7 days it does sound rather hectic but did you know that those 7 days were not human days but god days? Meaning that their duration was vastly different in fact its said in the Quran that one day of god is equivalent to 50,000 years in our world so if you want to measure how long it took to create the seven skies and every thing in them it would be 350,000 years and that in its divinity sounds easier to digest don’t you think?

 

N.B please don’t misunderstand me the lord could create the world we are in today with a blink of an eye or even faster but it’s his wisdom that we cant fathom unless he shares crumbs of it with us.

As for how old life is on earth where the bible says that Noah’s flood is 45 hundred years ago clearly this is incorrect how could the pyramids be built around the era of such a catastrophe as the flood and how is it so that Noah and Moses are not to far apart. Plus I am sure there are many facts that falsify what the bible says on this matter.

On the other hand Islam is quite clear that Noah flood was not around 3000 BC but was an age before that. Check out those pictures and please don’t mind the Arabic. (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yeteda2at(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/vb/showthread.php?t=718"]Al Hejer[/url] Those are pictures of an ancient city called AL hejer where the lord had sent his illustrious prophet Salah peace be upon him to those sinful lot living there and Salah’s mission ended up in the complete annihilation of this city's populace so sever is the punishment for those who challenge god via his own will! Now the reason I am saying this is because according to archeology those palaces carved out of entire mountains are over 4000 years old and in the Quran there are many generations including a few prophets between prophet Noah and prophet Salah peace be upon them all. So Noahs flood didn’t happen around 3000 BC but before that via a huge difference. And that my friend does not contra indicate with the hieroglyphs of ancient Egypt like the biblical version does.

 

Another thing I would like to discuses with you is a direct challenge to the very heart of Darwin’s theory, Natural selection. Now I never understood natural selection as a concept it seems extremely deficient, why did nature select mammals when the dinosaurs died? Such small weak crawlers surely there were better critters back then. In any case have you ever thought of the possibility that natural selection might have been correct but through a different definition say…. Divine selection?

Another question well for the past 3000 years humans have started to record their findings in various ways starting from Aristotle in Greece to others in the far east of china. Why has none of them ever reported seeing a species evolve? How does one species under go a morphological change to become a different species with better adaptation skills? Has any one seen it happen or is it merely what we see in front of us right now and we irrationally developed some theories to fill in the gaps of our discoveries?

 

I challenge you to bring up any thing that contra indicates with any thing in the Quran from the smallest verse to the longest chapter.

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Blaise Pascal a 17th century mathematician said ‘’ it’s safer to believe in god because the consequences of not believing are too terrible to comprehend’’ the only way to know if god really existents in your case would be to die, and that unfortunately is too late to save your self.

How ironic for you that Blaise Pascal was actually a Catholic.

 

Regarding his Wager, however:

 

Pascal's Wager (or the Muslim variant) is a completely flawed and dishonest argument. First of all, the assertion that there is more to gain by simply being a Muslim over an Atheist or Agnostic has absolutely nothing to do with wherever Islam is true or not. All you are doing is attempting to give a reason to believe based on fear. You are advocating that an individual should believe X because of Y. This is an appeal to consequences fallacy.

 

Do you think it is honest to believe in something because if it is true then a God will damn you to hell for all eternity? Do you think burning someone in hell for not believing in you is morally justifiable?

 

The flaw in Pascal's Wager comes regarding its truth value of proclaiming that believing in X has better results than Y. It is false. If the Fundamentalist Christians are correct then you will be burning in hell for all eternity. If various Islamic sects are correct then you might be burning in hell for all eternity. Anyone could end up being wrong and consequently anyone could end up burning in hell for all eternity for their beliefs. So the premise of the argument is rendered redundant.

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It honestly doesn't matter whether I agree or disagree. It does matter if Reality does or doesn't. Truth is the conformity of a concept or notion in the mind to actual reality.

 

 

How does the atmosphere serve as a protective ceiling for the earth?

 

How does each one of the billions of cells in the human body know and perform its individual tasks?

 

How does this extraordinary ecological balance exist on earth?

 

How did the flawless order in the whole universe come into being?

 

Who provided the delicate balances in the world?

 

How did living beings, incredibly diversified in nature, emerge?

 

 

The existence of God is OBVIOUS. Ignoring it would only be the beginning of the greatest damage we could ever do to ourselves. That is simply because God is in no need of anything. He is the One Who shows His greatness in all things and in all ways. God is the owner of everything, from the heavens to the earth. We learn the attributes of God from the Qur'an:

 

God! There is no god but Him, the Living, the Self-Sustaining. He is not subject to drowsiness or sleep. Everything in the heavens and the earth belongs to Him. Who can intercede with Him except by His permission? He knows what is before them and what is behind them but they cannot grasp any of His knowledge save what He wills. His Footstool encompasses the heavens and the earth and their preservation does not tire Him. He is the Most High, the Magnificent. (Surat al-Baqarah: 255)

 

 

In every detail of the infinitely varied world, man finds his Creator. God, the owner of everything in the whole universe, introduces Himself to man through the flawless design of His creation. Everything surrounding us, the birds in flight, our beating hearts, the birth of a child or the existence of the sun in the sky, manifest the power of God and His creation. And what man must do is to understand this fact.

 

 

So you never plead ignorance that all living beings, living or non-living, show the existence and greatness of God. Look at things around you and strive to show appreciation in the best manner for the eternal greatness of God.

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How does the atmosphere serve as a protective ceiling for the earth?

Do you mean the O-Zone Layer?

 

How does this extraordinary ecological balance exist on earth?

 

How did the flawless order in the whole universe come into being?

What 'balance'? What 'flawless order'? You appear to be changing the reality of existence. How on earth is there flawless order in the universe?

 

Who provided the delicate balances in the world?

No-one. You are failing to understand Atheism. You seem to think that there is an equivalent to God in Atheism. You ask questions which presume God's own existence and you also presume certain aspects of your world view whilst doing it too.

 

The existence of God is OBVIOUS. Ignoring it would only be the beginning of the greatest damage we could ever do to ourselves. That is simply because God is in no need of anything. He is the One Who shows His greatness in all things and in all ways. God is the owner of everything, from the heavens to the earth. We learn the attributes of God from the Qur'an:

 

God! There is no god but Him, the Living, the Self-Sustaining. He is not subject to drowsiness or sleep. Everything in the heavens and the earth belongs to Him. Who can intercede with Him except by His permission? He knows what is before them and what is behind them but they cannot grasp any of His knowledge save what He wills. His Footstool encompasses the heavens and the earth and their preservation does not tire Him. He is the Most High, the Magnificent. (Surat al-Baqarah: 255)

Or not.

 

In every detail of the infinitely varied world, man finds his Creator. God, the owner of everything in the whole universe, introduces Himself to man through the flawless design of His creation. Everything surrounding us, the birds in flight, our beating hearts, the birth of a child or the existence of the sun in the sky, manifest the power of God and His creation. And what man must do is to understand this fact.

There is obviously an exception to that rule: me. I do not find any of the above that you describe.

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It has conceptually moved since your last assertion. The current assertion states that Jinn exist in a separate unseen world yet they are all around us and can see us. How can they be all around us and interact with photons if they are in a separate world? If Jinn can enter our world in animal and semi-human form, where are the Jinn whom died in those forms in our world? Their skeletal structure would obviously be very different for starters. Where are all the entry points of the Jinn entering our world? It would likely take an enormous amount of energy and there would be lots of remnants left over from entry and exit.

 

You seem to think that this world is limited only to what you can see or can touch, when it actually overlaps with, to put it simply, another and unseen world. To some extent, the word "dimension" might explain it, although it is doing injustice to the process.

 

Jinn are not like ghosts that are simply invisible. They live in a world that is seperate from ours, but that exists in this same Earth. What is our world? It is simply what we are able to see, interact with, and can study. If it is possible for God to create this time, space, and this universe, is it impossible for Him to create the unseen world?

 

This isn't a Sci Fi movie. There are no "entry and exit points". Fictional concepts of "dimensions" and their gateways are just that, fictional.

 

Why do you also seem to be under the misguided notion that those Jinn who die in animal forms remain in this world? Or that their animal forms are any different from a regular animal? Really now, you're making things up about my religion.

 

You mean in all this time, humanity has learned more about innumerable life forms but not Jinn?

 

You mean in the same way that they have learned nothing about God? Or have been unable to disprove His existance?

 

Are you also going to make the flawed argument that, if human beings haven't studied it, it doesn't exist? Especially when jinn are not part of the "innumerable life forms" that exist in our visible world?

 

'Good' and 'Bad' then are then a laundry list documented in the Quran? Do they exist as objective features of reality or are they simply words in a book?

 

There is no such thing as a "laundry list" in the Qur'an, let alone of "good' and "bad". You're also downplaying the powers of words by slapping the word "simply" in front of them.

 

Can you expand on what you mean by objective features of reality? It sounds to me like you are asking if "good" and "bad" are independant aspects of reality that can be studied and formed opinions on. Which would be a no.

 

that there is no section of the Quran that explicitly states Solomon was given a magical ability to communicate with insects.

 

You seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing. I know for a fact that it matters not to you what is or isn't in the Qur'an, so you trying to argue that you want to see a section that explicitly states prophet Sulaiman was given "maaagical poooowers" to communicate with "insects" is counter-productive even for you.

 

In any case, as I've already stated, the Qur'an does not spell out everything for you. You have to learn Islam to understand it.

 

The Quran is evidence that a book exist. Evidence of 'iblis' the life form would be an instance of it directly or a direct instance of its unique effects. And yes there is objective evidence that 'iblis' does not exist. Simply put, the claim 'iblis exists' has been around since the Quran and since that time, there has been zero supportive evidence of that claim. That absence of evidence of a long period of time (a massive sample size) becomes evidence of absence.

 

Lack of proof is not proof that something does not exist. That is illogical. If this is the things they teach atheists, then by all means believe them, but don't expect others to meekly adopt what seems like completely nonsensical philosophy.

 

The only thing lack of proof suggests is just that, lack of proof. Though I must say that this is a double-edged sword. If humanity has had no proof to disprove the existance of Satan over the past centuries, do you also believe that evidence to disprove Satan's existance does not exist? Or do you practice double standards?

 

The Qur'an is evidence that a book exists? Right. It is also evidence that everything in it exists or has existed at some point. Why? Because if it is the word of God, then who knows what is the truth and what isn't better than Him?

 

Again you're trying to explain things in the way that you believe them, without any regard as to my own personal beliefs. I don't abide by the same laws of philosophy and theology as you, you should take that into consideration. I, on the other hand, have no desires to disprove atheism and am not blindly attempting to do so through my own personal reasoning.

 

The Quran and Hadiths are evidence books exist. And the answer to your question is the same as above.

 

The Qur'an is evidence that proves everything in it. Refer back to the previous quote.

 

I seek to point out that some of the fantastic claims presented in the Quran have no corresponding phenomena in reality. Truth is the conformity of a concept or notion to actual reality. Evidence is a demonstration supporting that a given reality is valid.

 

Because as creation we should be shown and given indepth explanations concerning every aspect of the rest of creation, am I right? You know, because we owe God oh-so-much.

 

I meant the Quran makes some wild claims about rather fantastic life forms and places, yet there is no objective evidence supporting those claims. Don't you find that odd?

 

You are discrediting the existance of God and His creation because you are unable to see (your type of) proof of either. Don't you find that odd?

 

That's not what I am saying however, I know the answer to that question already. The ants will not move out of the way if you are charging towards them. They might freak out if you step on them but likely they will try to attack you instead of escaping (they are kind of stupid that way).

 

I'm guessing you never played around ant hills as a child. Which would be a good thing, because children can be rather sadistic toward animals and insects when they are young. But if you have ever stood in front of an ant hill and then stomped your foot on the ground (a force that is enough to make the ant hill tremble since it's usually made of dirt), the ants that are loitering outside will disappear into their ant hills. Are they going off to find courage to return and "attack" us? You decide.

 

What I was saying is that an ant doesn't have the mental capacity to distinguish between humans, identify them by name, and identify groups of humans with specific uniforms and tools as being an army.

 

Ants do not have the mental capacity to distinguish between humans or identify them by name. Ants and all of creation have the ability to recognize prophets of God. Show me objective evidence that ants cannot recognize prophets of God instead of trying to spoon-feed me your beliefs.

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Sorry, where is the line that stated 'God' gave ants (or even insects) the magical ability to identify prophets (by name no doubt)?

 

If you studied Islam, you would come to know that this universe and all that is in it recognizes the prophets of God. The living creations of God are very much aware of God and His plan. It is human beings and jinn that are blinded by this world.

 

God did not give the ants "magical abilities to identify prophets by name". This implies that it was an action that took place at that specific time, which is completely wrong, and stating "Oh and by the way in case you didn't know, living things have the ability to recognize prophets" in the Qur'an itself is redudant for those who have knowledge about Islam. Otherwise everything in the Qur'an would come with an explanation, which would make it lose all of its elements.

 

 

Actually I can. I can prove that humans cannot communicate with ants, ants have no concept of human identity, ants cannot distuish the functions of different groups of humans, and that there is no section of the Quran that explicitly states Solomon was given a magical ability to communicate with insects.

 

I didn't ask "Can you prove that humans cannot communicate with ants?" I asked "Can you prove that prophet Sulaiman did not communicate with ants?"

 

Can you?

 

That's an interesting interpretation. Incorrect but interesting.

 

Do you deny that you believe what is unknown to human beings and does not have visible or tangible proof does not exist?

 

Does it bother you that some of what are teaching would be considered objectively false by reality?

 

Does it bother you that your perception of reality is false?

 

If we're talking about the concept of a generic omnipotent life form than nobody can prove a negative in that situation as there is no concrete detail.

 

In other words, you cannot prove that God does not exist. The rest of your words are nothing more than opinions and silly semantics. All I'm seeing are "Human beings tend to do this" and "Human beings tend to do that".

 

* There are loads of contradictory statements made by scripture. Reality does not support contradicton.

 

I love exposing the lies behind these so-called contradictions in the Qur'an. Do you have any?

 

Salam.

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How ironic for you that Blaise Pascal was actually a Catholic.

 

Regarding his Wager, however:

 

Pascal's Wager (or the Muslim variant) is a completely flawed and dishonest argument. First of all, the assertion that there is more to gain by simply being a Muslim over an Atheist or Agnostic has absolutely nothing to do with wherever Islam is true or not. All you are doing is attempting to give a reason to believe based on fear. You are advocating that an individual should believe X because of Y. This is an appeal to consequences fallacy.

 

Do you think it is honest to believe in something because if it is true then a God will damn you to hell for all eternity? Do you think burning someone in hell for not believing in you is morally justifiable?

 

The flaw in Pascal's Wager comes regarding its truth value of proclaiming that believing in X has better results than Y. It is false. If the Fundamentalist Christians are correct then you will be burning in hell for all eternity. If various Islamic sects are correct then you might be burning in hell for all eternity. Anyone could end up being wrong and consequently anyone could end up burning in hell for all eternity for their beliefs. So the premise of the argument is rendered redundant.

 

If you think that if missed the fact that Pascal was a catholic then you are gravely mistaken. However the reason I quoted such a man is because he is one of the founders of the modern scientific revolution we live in today.

One more thing this is not a simple math quiz it’s an eternity of sorrow or joy you are so ignorantly trying to compute. But like I said before for you people the only way to believe is to die and that it self is unfortunate because then it will be too late.

Let me ask you some thing; where did humanity gain it morals form? Science? Or perhaps human logic? No I think not, unfortunately we can all see the effects of atheism in the world today, never in human history have people sunk so low:

-Prostitution rates are high for example in the year 1998 one in three women in jails were arrested for prostitution; 7 in 10 women imprisoned for felonies were initially arrested for prostitution.

-homosexuality and its shameful marriages, never have people declared such an unholy marriage not even in the stone ages where some human tribes walked naked. This none productive act will only lead to worse out comes today men marry men tomorrow men marry animals and it happened.

-homicides statistics were never higher through out human history. We have reached an age where a man kills another man, and sadly the killer does not know why he killed nor does the victim know why he was murdered.

-and the last but not least result of your so called perfect godless laws and courts, never in human history have criminals and villains walked the streets free after buying their trials through keen lawyers.

Yes I see a great future for humanity in atheism, my only hope is that it never reaches my children because then I would rather be under the ground then above it.

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One more thing this is not a simple math quiz it’s an eternity of sorrow or joy you are so ignorantly trying to compute.

I never said it was. I just pointed out how 'gambling' your eternity a la Pascal's Wager is dishonest, selfish and infinitely negative.

 

But like I said before for you people the only way to believe is to die and that it self is unfortunate because then it will be too late.

Well, yes. I will no longer exist and could not believe anything.

 

Let me ask you some thing; where did humanity gain it morals form? Science? Or perhaps human logic? No I think not, unfortunately we can all see the effects of atheism in the world today, never in human history have people sunk so low:

Science is silent on morality as is Atheism. Atheism has nothing to do with morality. It is a standpoint on the existence of God (either disbelief in God or belief there is no God). To equate it to morality is like equating chess to physics.

 

-Prostitution rates are high for example in the year 1998 one in three women in jails were arrested for prostitution; 7 in 10 women imprisoned for felonies were initially arrested for prostitution.

What does this have to do with Atheism?

 

-homosexuality and its shameful marriages, never have people declared such an unholy marriage not even in the stone ages where some human tribes walked naked. This none productive act will only lead to worse out comes today men marry men tomorrow men marry animals and it happened.

What does this have to Atheism? And how do you say that homosexual marriages lead to a slipper slope to marrying animals?

 

-homicides statistics were never higher through out human history. We have reached an age where a man kills another man, and sadly the killer does not know why he killed nor does the victim know why he was murdered.

Evidence of the growth of homicides? I suspect any growth is due to population expansion and the better recording of statistics. Moreover, what does this have to do with Atheism?

 

-and the last but not least result of your so called perfect godless laws and courts, never in human history have criminals and villains walked the streets free after buying their trials through keen lawyers.

My godless laws and courts? That's nice.

 

Yes I see a great future for humanity in atheism, my only hope is that it never reaches my children because then I would rather be under the ground then above it.

So what do you actually think Atheism is? And what in your view is the method of controlling it? Outlawing godless people like me?

 

In fact, all Atheism equals is a simple disbelief in God. You are just too bigoted to see it.

 

I'm not so keen on civility when someone is telling me (or at least implying) I am evil and have no morals. It sort of dampens your spirits. A bit like living in the UK, which apparently is the cesspool of all destruction. Why last night, I saw three murders, four rape attacks whilst on my way to the local brothel. I still don't know why any of it happened.

 

I guess I should ignore the fact that when asked, no-one can tell me a better time in the UK. Where no-one can tell me where the UK was a better place to live in. Ignoring the fact that the majority of the population of the UK (and funnily, the majority of Europe) has a high standard of living, I am supposed to believe that we're all on a quick path to moral destruction.

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Disbelief in one and only God, Allah (swt) is the path of destruction.

Atheism leads nowhere. Trying to prove that God doesn't exist.

be thankful to Almighty Allah (swt). Who gave you a soul, a chance to earn reward.

 

All praise be to Allah (swt).

Seek guidance.

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Disbelief in one and only God, Allah (swt) is the path of destruction.

Well yes, if Islam is true.

 

Atheism leads nowhere. Trying to prove that God doesn't exist.

That isn't what Atheism is.

 

be thankful to Almighty Allah (swt). Who gave you a soul, a chance to earn reward.

Only if you give thanks to Talos.

 

All praise be to Allah (swt).

Seek guidance.

May Talos guide you.

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I never said it was. I just pointed out how 'gambling' your eternity a la Pascal's Wager is dishonest, selfish and infinitely negative.

What Pascal said makes sense but what your are saying is nothing more then insults, you sir insult me while we are having a decent conversation but no matter I will not sink to your level and reply I am not selfish, dishonest or negative.

 

Well, yes. I will no longer exist and could not believe anything.

Science is silent on morality as is Atheism. Atheism has nothing to do with morality. It is a standpoint on the existence of God (either disbelief in God or belief there is no God).

You didn’t answer my question but I suppose we all know the origin of human morals and ethics. Say all people were to become atheists then what, what will human morals and ethics be? I suppose it might look like this; it’s fine to walk naked in the streets, its fine to steal rape kill and lie if you’re rich and if you’re poor and some rich ignorant naive stumbles over your rights you will just have to live with it knowing that no one can execute justice.

How can you be so sure sir? Have you seen this none existence phase you speak of in a scientifically proven journal? Or maybe you spoke to a dead person? No I think not and I will tell you this is one thing science cant prove, Nor can you!

 

What does this have to Atheism? And how do you say that homosexual marriages lead to a slipper slope to marrying animals?

Through out the evolution of life on earth this long multi million year journey name one just one species that was homosexual. Living organism reproduce sexually or Asexually. Those who reproduce sexually are either hermaphrodites or none hermaphrodites like us humans. But never in the history of life on earth that a species ever thought of using the end of the gastrointestinal track as an orifice for such foul sins, but Unfortunately its us humans who have to stray from the natural order of things, but I guess since we kill any thing and every thing in our way including our own planet this is not to difficult to comprehend. Its not only atheism, it’s the liberty that follows it that causes those catastrophes. And like I said yesterday people were dreaming about intra general marriages and now they have it today its inter species marriages tomorrow we might see a man marring an object. I can hear Ibles (Satan) laughing his brains out when he sees such things surely the human mind is a weak and fragile system.

 

Evidence of the growth of homicides? I suspect any growth is due to population expansion and the better recording of statistics. Moreover, what does this have to do with Atheism?

So what do you actually think Atheism is? And what in your view is the method of controlling it? Outlawing godless people like me?

The human population flared up a long time ago. There is evidence of cities with a population surpassing a million back in the 8th century, back then providing food and water for such a huge number was a not only a challenge but an impossible one at that health care education were scarce and that lead to false beliefs. Yes the human population has never been higher but look at the lack of education poverty and impure sources of knowledge spreading lies today. I mean if the CNN would declare that a UFO is going to show up on a specific date I would bet that half of the American population would go out doors waiting to greet the UFO while the other half are waiting indoors on their TVs. So apply this example on the anti Islamic or god programs on the Air today and you might be impressed.

What I think atheism is a lack of hope. This era is different then any other before it and you know why? Simple because god has simply left humanity to its self, never has god distanced him self from us for so long. Look at the past why is it that atheism was never as significant in the past as it is today? God has always kept in contact with us through his prophets back then. In Islam we believe that the lord had sent hundreds of thousands of prophets to humanity ever since they existed. But this is the largest gap of them all because it’s the last one. In the past there were always prophets performing miracles in the name of god but now it’s been about 15 centuries and yet we heard nothing from god no signs no proof. But this does not mean he is not there nor does it cross the truth in his words lies. I suppose it’s easier not to believe in god but that again doing the right thing is never easy.

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hmm i think you dont get me , its probably the leak . :sl: no worries brother

 

Or vice versa :D.

 

i will try my best to close that leak soon..

i know your happy but only in brain :no: my prespective is to make you understand how we understand , many of my brothers tried with you but your being very resisting by such ignorance glitch or maybe you want the finalday to come to see it in your eyes and words wont satisfy you until then.

 

Did I ever mention that I love your choice of words? I think you might also learn as well while you're showing me how you think.

 

know 1 thing , try not to overcome brain powers to use them for the intensiveness of visuals and imaginations , because when ( faith ) comes you must know you have a limit :j: this limit is for the people when they know and have faith , and then here we're fear and love comes. and here when you will know that you cant think more because of your limits ,.. and here you will understand and must understand that you cananot do anything but pray and thank Allah for everything.

 

dont be out side the picture brother :D

:sl:

 

Eek, it sounds like you just said I shouldn't use my brain but instead should express gratitude for not using it.

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What Pascal said makes sense but what your are saying is nothing more then insults, you sir insult me while we are having a decent conversation but no matter I will not sink to your level and reply I am not selfish, dishonest or negative.

I actually said the wager was dishonest, selfish and infinitely negative. Not you.

 

You didn’t answer my question but I suppose we all know the origin of human morals and ethics. Say all people were to become atheists then what, what will human morals and ethics be?

Largely unchanged, I suspect. I would imagine Libertarian understanding of ethics would become dominant. I daresay that should everyone suddenly become an Atheist, then the problems of the Middle East would diffuse themselves (although others would grow in their place).

 

I suppose it might look like this; it’s fine to walk naked in the streets, its fine to steal rape kill and lie if you’re rich and if you’re poor and some rich ignorant naive stumbles over your rights you will just have to live with it knowing that no one can execute justice.

And you accuse me of insulting you? On what basis would that happen at all? Atheism does not by definition remove justice. Of course we can execute justice without a God. This is the reason we have communities, codes of conduct and courts of law. This is the reason we have invoked laws to ensure that murderers, rapists and thieves can have justice served to them.

 

How can you be so sure sir? Have you seen this none existence phase you speak of in a scientifically proven journal?

No. But all evidence indicates there is nothing afterlife. The entire body shuts down, which all evidence indicates is wholly responsible for our existence and self-awareness.

 

Or maybe you spoke to a dead person? No I think not and I will tell you this is one thing science cant prove, Nor can you!

Neither me nor science can prove anything.

 

Through out the evolution of life on earth this long multi million year journey name one just one species that was homosexual.

No species was predominantly homosexual. So?

 

Living organism reproduce sexually or Asexually. Those who reproduce sexually are either hermaphrodites or none hermaphrodites like us humans. But never in the history of life on earth that a species ever thought of using the end of the gastrointestinal track as an orifice for such foul sins, but Unfortunately its us humans who have to stray from the natural order of things, but I guess since we kill any thing and every thing in our way including our own planet this is not to difficult to comprehend

See: Naturalistic Fallacy

 

Some people use the phrase "naturalistic fallacy" or "Appeal to nature" to characterise inferences of the form "This behaviour is natural; therefore, this behaviour is morally acceptable" or "This behaviour is unnatural; therefore, this behaviour is morally unacceptable". Such inferences are common in discussions of homosexuality and cloning. While such inferences may indeed be fallacious, it is important to realise that Moore is not concerned with them. He is instead concerned with the semantic and metaphysical underpinnings of ethics. However, others hold that it may be reasonable to assert that the term "good" is merely an affirmation of approval, and that, as such, good may be defined as "I approve."

 

Who cares if homosexuality is not natural? The entire development of humanity to where it is now was not exactly through naturalistic means.

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