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Skavau

Torture In Hell

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I touched upon this with Redeem in a previous discussion in 'Separate Religion And State'. I ask, how is it just for God to send someone to hell for disbelieving in him (for eternity or otherwise)? Belief is not a choice and nor is it a conscious act of vindictive spitefulness. It is a subjective conclusion that an individual reaches after a specific experience of natural phenomena. There is no question of being able to by 'choice' change that conclusion, because at that point you have already made it. You can only change your belief if you are convinced that your belief is wrong and/or that another belief is right. To do that you must be exposed to different viewpoints or different experiences in life.

 

So belief is not a choice, and nor is it also vindictive by nature. I might be an Atheist, but I am not an Atheist because of a 'hatred of belief' or 'arrogance' or 'denial' or for any other rhetoric that some theists like to pretend I am, but I am an Atheist because I contest the existence of a God. I am a Soft Atheist in that I do not declare that there is no God but I simply disbelieve in the assertion that there is a God. As stated, my disbelief in the God proposition rests with skepticism and lack of evidence and/or reason under my world view to suppose a God. I cannot at all 'change' my belief because I would have to be sincerely convinced of its falsehood and/or the validity of another belief to do so.

 

And this brings me to my point - disbelief or belief in God is based on a sincere conclusion of reality, then why should those who disbelieve in God be sent to hell for all eternity? It is the equivalent of sending someone to hell for getting their information incorrect. It is also grossly unjust. Disbelief in God at most would last a lifetime whereas torture in hell lasts eternity. It to me paints a picture of an insecure and spiteful God who sends (or 'allows') his creation to hell for simply not recognising his existence. It also paints an incompetent God for also God would have always known those that would not believe in him and what it would take to convince them - but instead, they end up in hell. Did God allow that to happen, fail to stop it or did he want it to happen?

 

I ask quite simply: How is it just to send someone to hell for getting their information wrong? Which is exactly what this is.

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PropellerAds

If you, Skavau, choose not to believe in God even after you have been told about Him, whose fault would this be?

 

Salam.

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If you, Skavau, choose not to believe in God even after you have been told about Him, whose fault would this be?

Told about him by whom? By you? By Mormons? By Catholics? By Jehovah's Witnesses?

 

Lots of people tell me about what they think God is. I still remain unconvinced of God and this is a consequence of my understanding of reality. My understanding cannot arbitrarily flick by choice, but it inevitably changes with knowledge. Just because I have been told by some about what they think God is and have been told by some that I should believe in God does not make my unchanged disbelief in God anymore of a choice than before.

 

To change my belief concerning God I would have to be convinced that there is a God. Someone telling me that there is one in and of itself does not cut it. Perhaps you think it should, but it does not. It is also not at all my choice that it does not cut it, it is a consequence of my current knowledge where someone telling me about God is unable to make sincerely believe in God.

 

To put it through further, could you sincerely decide to believe in Christianity? Could you suddenly change your outlook to Christianity? I doubt you could not?

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Told about him by whom? By you? By Mormons? By Catholics? By Jehovah's Witnesses?

 

This is an Islamic forum. I think you know who I meant. I'm also not going to get into a philosophical debate, but will do my part in showing you the steps toward discovering the truth for yourself.

 

It is the duty of human beings to discover God and to filter out any false misconceptions. It seems to me that when anyone brings in the argument "but there are so many religions", they are using this as a scapegoat. Do you know how you will discover the truth? By sincerely seeking it, without any prejudice or skepticism. Without attempting to refute it at every turn. Without overrationalizing and ridiculing.

 

There is a place to start. You can attend lectures, you can take Islamic courses, you can read the Qur'an and study its meaning. You can do all of this with the intention of being guided to the righteous path.

 

In fact, simply praying to God with an open and sincere heart to guide you to the true way and to protect you from all that is useless or harmful, that is something anyone can and should do. Why don't you? Why doesn't anyone?

 

There is a chapter in the Qur'an titled Al-Fatihah and which every Muslim reads at least twice in every one of the 5 daily prayers.

 

1. In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

2. Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;

3. Most Gracious, Most Merciful;

4. Master of the Day of Judgment.

5. It is You we worship, and You we seek aid from.

6. Show us the straight way,

7. The way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who do not go astray.

 

Read it. Learn it. And use it. Maybe then you will see a change within yourself.

 

If you do not wish to do this, then that is your choice for this lifetime

 

Salam.

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This is an Islamic forum. I think you know who I meant.

Okay. You.

 

I'm also not going to get into a philosophical debate, but will do my part in showing you the steps toward discovering the truth for yourself.

Presuming I discover the truth and change my beliefs as a consequence, there is still no choice in belief. It would be a consequence of my new knowledge.

 

It is the duty of human beings to discover God and to filter out any false misconceptions. It seems to me that when anyone brings in the argument "but there are so many religions", they are using this as a scapegoat.

It is an observance. By what can a skeptic judge to be the the 'truth' when there hundreds of claims as to what is the truth? Those who embark into intellectual inquiry and cover all beliefs also come to drastically different conclusions to each other. This leads me to conclude that everyone's measurement of the truth is indeed different and therefore an objective truth is almost impossible.

 

Do you know how you will discover the truth? By sincerely seeking it, without any prejudice or skepticism. Without attempting to refute it at every turn. Without overrationalizing and ridiculing.

Quite possibly. Or perhaps the truth is actually a complete unknown to humanity and there is no way we can examine it. In which case I will never reach the truth.

 

I would still be sincere however.

 

There is a place to start. You can attend lectures, you can take Islamic courses, you can read the Qur'an and study its meaning. You can do all of this with the intention of being guided to the righteous path.

Why Islam first? Why not all beliefs? That is the only sincere way. Your method is not a search for the truth but simply a search for Islam. Someone sincere looking for a 'righteous path' would not decide beforehand that Islam was that path, nor would he or she exclusively search for Islam. He or she would inquire to all beliefs.

 

In fact, simply praying to God with an open and sincere heart to guide you to the true way and to protect you from all that is useless or harmful, that is something anyone can and should do. Why don't you? Why doesn't anyone?

Because I don't believe that God exists. Why don't you pray to Thor, Zeus or Odin? Why don't you consult Vishnu?

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My question has always been why don't you believe in Allah?

Because I don't see any reason nor evidence to suppose Allah. Moreover, it is the Muslims claim that Allah exists. It is their claim. I realise this is a Muslim forum, but it is the claimant who has to back up his or her contentions.

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Have you done what I asked you to yet, Skavau? If you were sincere in wishing to be saved from hellfire, you would have by now. Spend your time seeking guidance rather than trying to refute me and those on the forum.

 

Edit: Though I should add that you did nothing to refute my actual point, which was that most people seek only to show others how much they disagree, and how much they disbelieve. And not how much they are willing to discover the truth. Tsk tsk.

 

Salam.

Edited by Redeem

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Have you done what I asked you to yet, Skavau? If you were sincere in wishing to be saved from hellfire, you would have by now. Spend your time seeking guidance rather than trying to refute me and those on the forum.

I have not done what you asked regarding Islam. A true inquiry into the 'righteous path' involves no bias or preconcieved notions as you yourself stated. To pray to Allah being a Non-Muslim would be dishonest and current context in mind, selfish (due to the purpose being avoidance of hell).

 

Moreover, this does not answer the question posed in the original thread. Why is disbelief in Allah good reason to be tortured in hell, eternity or otherwise?

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You haven't tried to discover the truth yet? And you expect to find it? Or you think "uhh, well, I didn't really know what the truth was even though I wasn't willing to discover it" is going to save you from hellfire? After all, that is the only excuse you have at this moment.

 

To pray to Allah being a Non-Muslim would be dishonest and current context in mind, selfish (due to the purpose being avoidance of hell).

 

Wow, how could I have missed this gem of a post? Who told you to believe that praying for guidance to Allah as non-Muslim is dishonest? WHEN does someone ever pray for guidance? When they are already guided?

 

You're making up really bad excuses not to do as I adviced you to.

 

Salam.

Edited by Redeem

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You haven't tried to discover the truth yet?

I have not tried to search for what the truth in so much that I have not launched a personal campaign to search through religious, scientific, ethical and philosophical beliefs on reality.

 

And you expect to find it?

No I do not expect to find the truth. I believe it is arrogant to think one has the truth and impossible to discover the truth.

 

Or you think "uhh, well, I didn't really know what the truth was even though I wasn't willing to discover it" is going to save you from hellfire? After all, that is the only excuse you have at this moment.

You have still not answered the question. How is not knowing something (in this instance not knowing that Allah exists) good reason to be tortured in the hell fire for eternity or otherwise? Why do I need an excuse for being unable to believe in Allah? That is what my observation of reality has led me to.

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Aha! There is the heart of the matter. You do not seek to discover the truth. You do not want to be guided. You are quite pleased with your state of disbelief. You only wish to argue and to make a big show of refuting theists, correct?

 

You have still not answered the question.

 

I do not need to answer any of your questions. I only engage in discussions with two kinds of people:

 

1) Those who are seeking knowledge and want to be rightly guided.

2) Those who think they can turn the meaning of the Qur'an upside down and get away with it.

 

I have nothing to gain out of discussing Hell and who enters it, with someone who does not wish to learn. It would be like attempting to speak to someone who sticks his fingers in his ears.

 

Salam.

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Aha! There is the heart of the matter. You do not seek to discover the truth. You do not want to be guided. You are quite pleased with your state of disbelief.

I make no secret I am contented with my disbelief in God. I see no reason to become a Theist. But I do intend to enhance my knowledge in religion, philosophy, science and many subjects. I enjoy finding new information.

 

You only wish to argue and to make a big show of refuting theists, correct?

Absolutely not. I wanted an answer to the original question which you appear to have so eloquently dodged.

 

I do not need to answer any of your questions.

So leave the thread and stop derailing it. Trying to dig into my motives is just a pointless waste of time when you could have just asked.

 

I only engage in discussions with two kinds of people:

 

1) Those who are seeking knowledge and want to be rightly guided.

2) Those who think they can turn the meaning of the Qur'an upside down and get away with it.

Okay.

 

I have nothing to gain out of discussing Hell and who enters it, with someone who does not wish to learn.

I want to learn why Muslims (or most, according to my experience at least) seem to think that eternal torture in hell for a crime of 'disbelief' is perfectly alright. I want to understand the moral basis behind that. I would think that if I was a Muslim, it would be the biggest problem in the faith.

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So leave the thread and stop derailing it. Trying to dig into my motives is just a pointless waste of time when you could have just asked.

 

Do you even know what the meaning of the word derailing means when applied to topics? Derailing involves going entirely off-topic. Don't be stupid. Your main point centered around hellfire and disbelief. I replied by showing you that if you applied yourself to discovering the truth, you would need not worry about either.

 

Wasting my time? How presumptous of you to think so. I enjoy proving to everyone just how ridiculously pompous and arrogant atheists are to think that they can simply snap their fingers and have all of their questions answered without a question. Ridiculous beyond belief.

 

If you do not wish to see my posts, then leave. It doesn't get any simpler.

 

I wanted an answer to the original question which you appear to have so eloquently dodged.

 

There is that display of arrogance again. Snap, and it is done, right? You get answers when you show us that you deserve them.

 

No one with all of their wits in place would try to have a conversation with someone who has no desire to learn. After all, the Qur'an tells us "As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe." (Baqarah, 6). Truer words were never spoken.

 

Salam.

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Peace upon those who follow the guidance.

Funny we, humans. The more we think, with that piece of meat we call brain, the more we go astray. Those who lead happy life are always those who don't think too much.

Life is so simple, yet we complicate it and enjoy the pain, and in the way, we forget that we're but tiny creatures in that universe, where all other creations knew who made them, by basic instinct. Yet some of us refuse to even say thanks.

 

Dear Skavau, allow me to ask you one question: who or what created you?

Whatever your answer is, that would be your Creator. Refusing to recognize that 'something' caused your creation is impossible. That 'something' we happen to call God. Its as simple and basic as that.

 

Now, your argument is not valid. If you don't believe in a god, then you don't believe in an afterlife, so you cannot criticize a state that you refuse to even recognize. If it turned out that you were wrong, then you can blame no one but yourself. You had your choices. Its not that God will enjoy torturing, for He is above everything, and He is beyond all our earthly feelings. Its a promise, and a warning. But He is also The Merciful, and many non-believers will be forgiven and not admitted to eternal hellfire. But I'm afraid no one can be so sure.

 

This life, of a few years, that we spend on this tiny planet, is a test. You pass if you recognize your Creator, and live by His rules, or fail if you refuse to do so, and take your chances later. Its only fair.

 

And a personal advise: don't judge your Creator, for we are not equipped with what enables us to do so. We can only base our judgment on our limited logical powers of our brains, the little knowledge we were allowed access to, and a set of feelings related only to the human species . None of those qualify us to judge our Creator.

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Do you even know what the meaning of the word derailing means when applied to topics? Derailing involves going entirely off-topic. Don't be stupid. Your main point centered around hellfire and disbelief. I replied by showing you that if you applied yourself to discovering the truth, you would need not worry about either.

Okay, fine - but what if my search for 'truth' did not lead me to Islam? Should I be subjected to burning in hell then or not? Unless of course by 'discovering the truth' you mean 'become a Muslim', then all you are saying is: "Well you won't go to hell if you're a Muslim" which ignores the question, which asked was,

 

How is it just to send Non-Muslims to hell for eternity simply for getting their facts wrong?

 

Wasting my time? How presumptous of you to think so. I enjoy proving to everyone just how ridiculously pompous and arrogant atheists are to think that they can simply snap their fingers and have all of their questions answered without a question. Ridiculous beyond belief.

I never expected my question to be answered in a single response. I at least hope some would attempt to address it.

 

If you do not wish to see my posts, then leave. It doesn't get any simpler.

There is that display of arrogance again. Snap, and it is done, right? You get answers when you show us that you deserve them.

Is this an implication that every new member has to 'prove' themselves? What you are essentially saying is that you can come into any thread, say what you want but do not feel you have to do anything or answer any questions that the thread poses if the original poster is 'not worthy'. To me pomposity screams here from all angles.

 

Think what you want of me, but I would like the question to be addressed - not my intentions.

 

No one with all of their wits in place would try to have a conversation with someone who has no desire to learn. After all, the Qur'an tells us "As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe." (Baqarah, 6). Truer words were never spoken.

So if it is pointless to have a conversation with me, you know what my recommendation for you will be.

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Funny we, humans. The more we think, with that piece of meat we call brain, the more we go astray. Those who lead happy life are always those who don't think too much.

I cannot argue with that.

 

Life is so simple, yet we complicate it and enjoy the pain, and in the way, we forget that we're but tiny creatures in that universe, where all other creations knew who made them, by basic instinct. Yet some of us refuse to even say thanks.

Of course, if Allah does exist then I am not thanking Allah because my disbelief presumes there is no such thing as Allah. But this still remains a sincere disbelief, and as my original post stated: "belief is not a choice, and nor is it also vindictive by nature."

 

Is my mistake though worthy of eternal torment in hell?

 

Question: who or what created you?

I was not created. I was caused.

 

Whatever your answer is, that would be your Creator.

False.

 

Refusing to recognize that 'something' caused your creation is impossible.

Quite.

 

That 'something' we happen to call God. Its as simple and basic as that.

I know this is what you do.

 

Now, your argument is not valid. If you don't believe in a god, then you don't believe in an afterlife, so you cannot criticize a state that you refuse to even recognize.

I simply see this as another evasion of the question. I recognise and understand the situation completely regarding punishment in hell for all eternity (or, indeed otherwise). I want you to tell me why you think it is perfectly okay for Non-Muslims to be tormented in hell for all eternity for sincere mistakes.

 

If it turned out that you were wrong, then you can blame no one but yourself.

I could jump into various other discussion there regarding my 'choice', but I am not going to. This is not the thread.

 

Concerning it though, I cannot blame myself because belief is not a choice. Belief is a reaction to observed phenomena and acquired knowledge. I cannot sincerely change my belief to Islam. I could pretend to be a Muslim, but that is all it would amount to. Moreover, God still set up the conditions where those who disbelieved would find themselves in hell. What makes that right?

 

You had your choices. Its not that God will enjoy torturing, for He is above everything, and He is beyond all our earthly feelings. Its a promise, and a warning.

It is what God set up. If God allows it, then God feels no contention against it. Why is it morally right for it to be the case?

 

This life, of a few years, that we spend on this tiny planet, is a test. You pass if you recognize your Creator, and live by His rules, or fail if you refuse to do so, and take your chances later. Its only fair.

Except it isn't in the slightest. To me, you invoke an image of God being an egotistical, spiteful and incompetent fascist towards humanity. He invokes an existence for humanity designed purely as a 'test' where the key to passing is to recognise him repeatedly and do everything he wants repeatedly. For those that abide, there is promise of reward and for those that fail there is promise of hell. The 'Hell' mentioned is torture. Now how is failing a test good reason for being tortured?

 

Seeing as 'failing' this test in life can involve an individual not knowing that a test is even taking place and living their life blissfully - how is it fair that they be punished?

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/shrug

 

Your loss. I mean, really. Your loss.

 

Salam.

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/shrug

 

Your loss. I mean, really. Your loss.

 

Salam.

Possibly.

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How is it just to send someone to hell for getting their information wrong? Which is exactly what this is.
Ill keep it simple.

 

It has been stated that no matter where you live on this earth, what you do for a living or whatever else maybe the case, every human being will come across Islam in his or her lifetime. They have to decide in this life whether Islam is the right choice or not.

 

So to answer your question really there is no way anyone can get their information wrong before death. So even after the truth has reached them and they disbelieved then they are the sinners.

 

Why? well look, your birth was itself miraculous. Wonder how many die before birth? Then we are born with fully functional organs and senses. Wonder how many are deformed at birth and/or dont have all the senses working. A person can breath without problems. That is a gift/miracle. Wonder how many have trouble even taking 1 breath?! You can presumably walk with 2 feet. How many dont have 1/2 feet?! You can think and reason. How many can't understand basic shapes of figures?! and/or talk. The list goes on and on and on.. and actually it is also said that if we were to count the gifts of Allah to us, we'd never be able to.

 

You've worded your questions and answers very proficiently. I'm not here to debate, argue, convince you of anything. You are free to argue all you want. I have stated the facts and that is that. The choice is yours :sl:. Sorry i'm not trying to be rude with you, i'm just kind of tired? of doing this with with everyone.

 

Peace.

Edited by Hasib

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..and remember: its not what you think of God, or His rules, that governs whether you abide by them. If you think its not just, or we are here as part of a game, fine. But you still need to play this life game by the rules. The outcome is not up to your judgment, its imposed upon us anyway, regardless of anything.

 

I was not created. I was caused

same thing.. is there a difference?

 

Is my mistake though worthy of eternal torment in hell?

Its not a mistake, its your life-time choice. You have your life ahead of you, but you insist on refusing to believe, and live till you die with that clear choice. Had you died a child, you will not be accountable, and you go to paradise. But you didn't, so its your choice, not your mistake, sorry.

 

I want you to tell me why you think it is perfectly okay for Non-Muslims to be tormented in hell for all eternity for sincere mistakes.

not mistakes, but learned choices. This forum, and countless other web resources, help you get your info right. The rest is your choice, not mistake.

 

And being ok or not makes no difference.

This is life. Protesting it makes you suffer, while adjusting to it is much better. Someone may think: is it fair to die?.. is it fair to lose one's loved ones? is it fair to suffer failures, disease and pain? We may or may nor realize that everything is for a reason. Yet, whatever we think of all this, we keep being subjected to them all.

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Ill keep it simple.

Okay.

 

It has been stated that no matter where you live on this earth, what you do for a living or whatever else maybe the case, every human being will come across Islam in his or her lifetime. They have to decide in this life whether Islam is the right choice or not.

Yes. They do have that choice of decision. But they do not have the choice of belief. I have had the choice to become a Muslim (and still have it). I cannot become a Muslim sincerely though because I do not believe that Islam is true. I cannot change that belief arbitrarily either.

 

So to answer your question really there is no way anyone can get their information wrong before death.

This is in error. If Islam is true, and non-Muslims die then we have had billions of instances where Non-Muslims have indeed got their information wrong - they presumed Islam was false. How did you come to your conclusion above?

 

So even after the truth has reached them and they disbelieved then they are the sinners.

The mere presentation of Islam is evidently not enough to convince everyone of its validity. And therefore those who remained unconvinced under your world view would in fact still be getting their information wrong.

 

Why? well look, your birth was itself miraculous. Wonder how many die before birth?

This is a low standard for a miracle. My birth was highly probable after my mother was pregnant because of the high health care in this country.

 

But I do see what you are saying. Many do die before birth. You are incredibly lucky to be alive because there is an almost infinite amount of people who have never been born.

 

Then we are born with fully functional organs and senses. Wonder how many are deformed at birth and/or dont have all the senses working. A person can breath without problems. That is a gift/miracle.

You again show a very low standard for a miracle. Since when was a natural process a miracle?

 

You can presumably walk with 2 feet. How many dont have 1/2 feet?! You can think and reason. How many can't understand basic shapes of figures?! and/or talk. The list goes on and on and on.. and actually it is also said that if we were to count the gifts of Allah to us, we'd never be able to.

What is your conclusion to the question? All this implies is that one should be thankful.

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..and remember: its not what you think of God, or His rules, that governs whether you abide by them. If you think its not just, or we are here as part of a game, fine. But you still need to play this life game by the rules. The outcome is not up to your judgment, its imposed upon us anyway, regardless of anything.

So this is ignoring the question entirely. You invoke the justification by simply saying "Might equals right." This is not a moral justification for why sending someone to hell is right but a concession that we are placed under a fascist.

 

same thing.. is there a difference?

Yes, the Earth was caused under my world view. There was no intent behind the earths creation.

 

Under your world view, Allah designed it with a purpose.

 

Its not a mistake, its your life-time choice.

Which is based upon an error of judgment. The error of judgment being that Islam is false.

 

You have your life ahead of you, but you insist on refusing to believe, and live till you die with that clear choice.

I will suggest you read the first post. I will repeat what I said there:

 

"Belief is not a choice and nor is it a conscious act of vindictive spitefulness. It is a subjective conclusion that an individual reaches after a specific experience of natural phenomena. There is no question of being able to by 'choice' change that conclusion, because at that point you have already made it. You can only change your belief if you are convinced that your belief is wrong and/or that another belief is right. To do that you must be exposed to different viewpoints or different experiences in life."

 

My 'refusal' to belief is an inability to sincerely presume Islam is the case.

 

Had you died a child, you will not be accountable, and you go to paradise. But you didn't, so its your choice, not your mistake, sorry.

Where is my choice here precisely? You could argue it is my choice to disbelieve in Islam, but again there is no choice in belief. I cannot choose my conclusions on reality - for they come through observation.

 

not mistakes, but learned choices. This forum, and countless other web resources, help you get your info right. The rest is your choice, not mistake.

Presuming that the above is the case - it is obviously not enough to convince everyone. Many Non-Muslims have read the Quran, the Hadiths and have gone through a lot of commentary and articles on Islam and come out as Non-Muslims. They obviously still see no evidence and/or reason to suppose Islam through what they have read and their prerogative there is nothing but sincere. Should they be wrong in the afterlife, then they would only be getting their information wrong.

 

This is life. Protesting it makes you suffer, while adjusting to it is much better. Someone may think: is it fair to die?.. is it fair to lose one's loved ones? is it fair to suffer failures, disease and pain? We may or may nor realize that everything is for a reason. Yet, whatever we think of all this, we keep being subjected to them all.

This is almost identical to your opening paragraph on this post. It does not answer the question, it dismisses it as irrelevant.

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You have choice to choose between right and wrong.

What is right and what is wrong is not a matter of opinion. But rather the order

from Allah (swt), which he sent messengers to remind people.

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You have choice to choose between right and wrong.

Yes I do. Although I may argue that under a different topic, we shall presume such for this discussion.

 

What is right and what is wrong is not a matter of opinion. But rather the order

from Allah (swt), which he sent messengers to remind people.

So you have simply echoed the sentiments of dot and invokes morality to mean 'Might equals right' or 'What Allah says is right' and you whilst doing it reduced moral assertions to arbitrary claims not from reason but from assertion. This is not at all convincing as to the righteousness of hell, but only reaffirms my understanding that you invoke a tyrant as a God.

 

I see all explanations like the above as simple cop-outs and an inability to answer.

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