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Skavau

Torture In Hell

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Astaghfirullah.

 

You have no ability of understanding Allah (swt).

And Allah (swt) is all fair and just.

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You have no ability of understanding Allah (swt).

My understanding (this thread in mind) is based entirely from what Muslims tell me. I am sorry my conclusions are not to your standards.

 

And Allah (swt) is all fair and just.

That may be what you believe, but it is not what I believe. I cannot believe that a God who burns someone in hell for eternity for the 'crime' of disbelief is all fair and just.

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My understanding (this thread in mind) is based entirely from what Muslims tell me. I am sorry my conclusions are not to your standards.

That may be what you believe, but it is not what I believe. I cannot believe that a God who burns someone in hell for eternity for the 'crime' of disbelief is all fair and just.

 

 

Torture of hell fire for all eternity is fair. Because People spend their entire lives

following Satan (devil) and his ways. Crimes, immoralities, murders... all the evil things.

Never do these people remember God. Never thank God. Never pray to God. And lead other people

away from God, so it seems fair that these people who have always led people astray from

belief. That they pay the price for it.

 

Think about it logically if I commit murder, I get life imprisonment. Its a fair punishment.

Because I took someones life.

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Hi Skavau, I have read the whole post with a lot of interest, I see the brothers on the Forum are trying to explain things to you, but you (forgive me if I am wrong) do not want to change your ideas and beliefs, so I will not try to convince you, one, because I cannot and do so, and two, because you are not ready to be convinced. The things are in front of you, and it's your choice to accept the facts or not. It goes beyond saying though that when a person looks then Allah open up paths for him, then again if Allah wants, he can Guide anyone.

 

Just want to clear one thing here though, we humans do not know who will go to paradise and enjoy and who will go to hell and be tortured, that is something unseen and unknown, Allah through His infinite Mercy could forgive whom He wants, we as Muslims do not question Him, we believe firmly that Allah is Just and will treat His creation in a Just manner. .

 

Also wanted to clear another thing that it is not Non Muslims who will be put into hell, but the Non Believers. Non Believers are those who do not believe in LA ILAAHA ILLALLAH (there is no one worthy of worship but Allah). Only Allah knows what is obvious to everyone, and also what is hidden in a person's heart, the knowledge of Humans is limited to what they see in front of them.

 

I pray to Allah for the guidance of Humanity. Take care, umAhmad.

Edited by umAhmad

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Torture of hell fire for all eternity is fair. Because People spend their entire lives

following Satan (devil) and his ways.

Some people might do that, but not everyone does. Unless of course you define 'following Satan' as being Non-Muslim, in which case everyone follows Satan unknowingly. How is punishment for an error there fair?

 

Crimes, immoralities, murders... all the evil things.

Yes. But they all take place in a finite existence, whereas hell is eternal torture.

 

Never do these people remember God. Never thank God. Never pray to God. And lead other people

away from God, so it seems fair that these people who have always led people astray from

belief. That they pay the price for it.

Of course, you have not read the original post or you have ignored it. I shall repeat:

 

"Belief is not a choice and nor is it a conscious act of vindictive spitefulness. It is a subjective conclusion that an individual reaches after a specific experience of natural phenomena. There is no question of being able to by 'choice' change that conclusion, because at that point you have already made it. You can only change your belief if you are convinced that your belief is wrong and/or that another belief is right. To do that you must be exposed to different viewpoints or different experiences in life."

 

These people you refer to do not remember, thank nor pray to God because they honestly believe there is no God or no evidence for God. There is no malicious, spiteful or attempt of vice in their disobedience in God - only sincere mistake. You now say that because of their errors they should be destined for eternal torture. Now how is that fair?

 

Moreover, why should so much emphasis be based upon worshiping God? Why should there be such a penalty for not doing so, irrespective of the reason?

 

Think about it logically if I commit murder, I get life imprisonment. Its a fair punishment.

Because I took someones life.

I cannot help but find this disgusting. Whilst I do not disagree with a life imprisonment being a fair punishment for the crime of murder, I find it repulsive that you connect disbelief in God, a statement of opinion with murder. There is absolutely no comparison. To commit a murder is to commit an act of destruction on another human being. To believe or disbelief is to conclude your experiences and knowledge. There is no choice nor inherent consequence in disbelief, where there is direct consequence and complete choice in murder.

 

You have not demonstrated how disbelieving in God is warrant for any punishment let alone eternal punishment in hell.

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Hi Skavau, I have read the whole post with a lot of interest, I see the brothers on the Forum are trying to explain things to you, but you (forgive me if I am wrong) do not want to change your ideas and beliefs

I simply want to know the moral reason or basis for eternal torture (or indeed otherwise) for disbelief.

 

so I will not try to convince you, one, because I cannot and do so, and two, because you are not ready to be convinced. The things are in front of you, and it's your choice to accept the facts or not

Belief is not a choice. I cannot accept the facts via prerogative, I would only be acting dishonestly. I cannot equate a God of omnibenevolence with a God that also burns people in hell for eternity.

 

Just want to clear one thing here though, we humans do not know who will go to paradise and enjoy and who will go to hell and be tortured, that is something unseen and unknown, Allah through His infinite Mercy could forgive whom He wants, we as Muslims do not question Him, we believe firmly that Allah is Just and will treat His creation in a Just manner. .

Are you saying here that you have no idea who will end up in heaven or hell?

 

Also wanted to clear another thing that it is not Non Muslims who will be put into hell, but the Non Believers. Non Believers are those who do not believe in LA ILAAHA ILLALLAH (there is no one worthy of worship but Allah).

You just said you didn't know who goes to hell. Anyway, I do not believe in Allah. So under that I am going to hell. This is right and just according to you (or rather, do you agree with Islam that it is right and just)?

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Dear Skavau,

 

If you commit a crime and proven guilty, you would be punished by courts of law. If you kill a man, you would be imprisoned for life or hanged to death for breaking the law. Can you rape a woman and then you claim that you don't know the law? If your answer is yes, I am afraid that your wife, daughters, sisters, mother etc would be raped by rapists who claim that they don't know the law! If a man kill your daughter, would you allow the man to do it with impunity? Therefore, if you break the law of Allah (God), Allah would punish you unless you repent sincerely and truthfully. In other word you are responsible for your own actions.

 

Allah has sent His prophets and messengers to all mankind to guide them back to the path of Allah so all human beings have no right to blame Allah if Allah punish them for breaking the law of Allah. They are wrong for ignoring, breaking or even defying the guidance and rules of Allah that Allah has given to them for the betterment of their way of life.

 

Muslims believe that Allah has given human beings freewill. This means that they can choose right or wrong and that they are responsible for their choices.

Edited by wiseguy

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If you commit a crime and proven guilty, you would punished by courts of law.

Yes you would.

 

If you kill a man, you would be imprisoned for life or hanged to death for breaking the law. Can you rape a woman and then you claim that you don't know the law?

Well, yes you could claim that. It would not be very convincing, but it would be possible. I can see where this is going however, the implication you are making is that 'disbelieving in God is breaking his law and therefore there is punishment for it'. But this completely misses the question. I know that this is what you believe, I know that this is what Islam and Muslims say. I want to know how you morally justify that law. I want to know how it is morally right to punish someone in hell for getting their information wrong. For we all know the reasons behind the punishment of rape and murder, the reasons for punishment for disbelief are not yet clear.

 

Therefore, if you break the law of Allah (God), Allah would punish you unless you repent sincerely and truthfully. In other word you are responsible for your own actions.

I know that this is under your world view, the law of Allah - but I want to know what makes that law morally right. It appears no greater to me than a fascist terminating citizens for not recognising his power.

 

Allah has sent His prophets and messengers to all mankind to guide them back to the path of Allah so all human beings have no right to blame Allah if Allah punish them for breaking the law of Allah.

Allah may have sent his prophets and messengers, but their portrayal of what Allah wants would not convince everyone. And Allah knows this. Allah is omniscient and created humanity. Allah would have always known that millions of people would not be convinced by his prophets and messengers and with a very poor rate of success (the majority not believing in Allah or recognising Islam) you would be reasonable in guessing incompetence on Allah's behalf.

 

Here is my perspective: I do not believe Allah exists. I do not believe the Quran was written by Allah. These are sincere and currently unchangeable disbeliefs on my behalf. I should be punished in hell for that?

 

They are wrong for ignoring, breaking or even defying the guidance and rules of Allah that Allah has given to them for the betterment of their way of life.

But they are sincere and they are well-meaning. And why is it wrong inherently to defy or ignore the rules of Allah? Do you mean wrong as in an incorrect judgment, or morally wrong?

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What do you need a proof of morality for? Its beyond the capability of our brains to answer your question. Plus, its irrelevant, as it will be imposed upon us anyway.

 

Atheists always fall in the same mistake: they think they're able to grasp everything by reason and brain power. This is not true. We can't even grasp simpler concepts, like infinity, or souls. We can only understand finite stuff, and things we can measure, touch or see. The lifespan of humanity is only a tiny minute compared to this universe, and we are a tiny part of that minute. And the lifespan of the whole universe is a tiny minute compared to infinite afterlife. Materialistic matter is not all there is, there are other creations that we may never encounter in this life. Its ridiculous to think that we can understand all this, not to mention measuring or judging it. Atheists are rdiculously arrogants.

 

You should be able to understand the necessity of a belief system, Islam not only gives you the ultimate belief system, but it provides you with a complete way of life. But, like sister Umahmad mentioned, you don't seem ready for it yet. Like all atheists, you're too obsessed with your brain power, and self-logic. But I do hope at some point that you feel the truth, not measure it.

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What do you need a proof of morality for?

I don't understand that question.

 

Its beyond the capability of our brains to answer your question.

If you mean, it is impossible to justify the righteousness of burning someone in hell for a thought crime then I admire your honesty. Simply saying 'Because God says so' is the most honest answer you can give, but it is also the most troublesome answer morally.

 

Plus, its irrelevant, as it will be imposed upon us anyway.

Yes, if Islam is true. But I think it is very relevant if you claim God is omnibenevolent.

 

Atheists always fall in the same mistake: they think they're able to grasp everything by reason and brain power.

Here is one Atheist who thinks otherwise.

 

This is not true. We can't even grasp simpler concepts, like infinity, or souls.

The existence of souls is up for question.

 

We can only understand finite stuff, and things we can measure, touch or see. The lifespan of humanity is only a tiny minute compared to this universe, and we are a tiny part of that minute.

Yes.

 

And the lifespan of the whole universe is a tiny minute compared to infinite afterlife.

It is in fact, under your world view infinitely smaller than the afterlife.

 

Materialistic matter is not all there is, there are other creations that we may never encounter in this life. Its ridiculous to think that we can understand all this, not to mention measuring or judging it. Atheists are rdiculously arrogants.

I never said we can understand it all. And your ad hominem attack on Atheists is noted.

 

You should be able to understand the necessity of a belief system, Islam not only gives you the ultimate belief system, but it provides you with a complete way of life.

Yes. It provides a guideline on how one should live his or her life. So?

 

But, like sister Umahmad mentioned, you don't seem ready for it yet. Like all atheists, you're too obsessed with your brain power, and self-logic. But I do hope at some point that you feel the truth, not measure it.

This is incoherent, and nothing more than religious rhetoric. The generalisation of Atheists is noted as well as the presumption that I am ignoring the truth. You do not seem to understand that I do not believe in Islam because I see no evidence of Islam. You also apply the only standard of truth as Islam. Whilst you may believe Islam is the truth, it would be in complete opposition to the discovery of truth for someone impartial to just focus on Islam.

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Well, yes you could claim that. It would not be very convincing, but it would be possible.

 

How many percent of criminals, who claim that they don't know about law, are not convicted of their crimes by courts of law? If it would be possible, I am sure criminals will commit crimes such as breaking your home, murdering your family etc with impunity since they claim that they don't know about law. That means only lawyers can be charged of committing crimes for they know the law.

 

I can see where this is going however, the implication you are making is that 'disbelieving in God is breaking his law and therefore there is punishment for it'. But this completely misses the question. I know that this is what you believe, I know that this is what Islam and Muslims say. For we all know the reasons behind the punishment of rape and murder, the reasons for punishment for disbelief are not yet clear.I know that this is under your world view, the law of Allah - but I want to know what makes that law morally right.

 

I want to know how you morally justify secular law. I want to know how it is morally right to punish , imprison, fine, or even hang someone to death for breaking the secular law. Please tell me how it is morally right to hang or electrocute you to death after you have murdered a man.

 

It appears no greater to me than a fascist terminating citizens for not recognising his power.

 

If you break the law of your country, the government of your country and the courts of law would imprison, fine, or even hang you to death. It appears no greater to me than a fascist terminating citizens for not recognising his power.

 

Allah may have sent his prophets and messengers, but their portrayal of what Allah wants would not convince everyone. And Allah knows this. Allah is omniscient and created humanity. Allah would have always known that millions of people would not be convinced by his prophets and messengers and with a very poor rate of success (the majority not believing in Allah or recognising Islam) you would be reasonable in guessing incompetence on Allah's behalf.

 

There are 1.6 billions of Muslims all over the world now so it is a success thus reflect the competence of Allah's behalf.

 

Here is my perspective: I do not believe Allah exists. I do not believe the Quran was written by Allah. These are sincere and currently unchangeable disbeliefs on my behalf. I should be punished in hell for that?

 

If Allah exists and you are saying that you do not believe Allah exists and YOU do not believe the Quran was written by Allah, do you expect Allah to treat you kindly and humanely after you have slandered and insulted Him the Creator? Do you expect Him to give you a heaven after you have denied His existence?

 

But they are sincere and they are well-meaning. And why is it wrong inherently to defy or ignore the rules of Allah? Do you mean wrong as in an incorrect judgment, or morally wrong?

 

And why is it wrong inherently to defy or ignore the rules of a country that you live or stay in? How sincere and well-meaning are they when some of them invent lies to slander and insult Islam and mislead other people by creating and promoting Islamophobia? Why don't they go to any Islamic centers to study Islam if they really want to know Islam for ignorance is not an excuse.

Edited by wiseguy

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How many percent of criminals, who claim that they don't know about law, are not convicted of their crimes by courts of law?

Practically none.

 

I want to know how you morally justify secular law. I want to know how it is morally right to punish , imprison, fine, or even hang someone to death for breaking the secular law.

Secular Law is just the separation of religion and state. It is a good thing for a number of reasons. The separation of both religion and state automatically stop religious intervention in the lives of the individual. They provide the basis for every single individual to live their life as they choose to. You can have your lifestyle choices and live by them and likewise so can I, the only restraint is the reasonable request of libertarianism (your right to your freedom ends when it touches my nose).

 

In a secular democratic state you have the option to influence governmental policy and legislation. You have no such influence under a theocratic system. That is because the laws aren't my laws, they are this 'God' characters, whoever He is. I do not therefore recognise the fundamental legitimacy of them, and unless you recognise the religious beliefs that underpin this system, neither should anyone else.

 

Please tell me how it is morally right to hang or electrocute you to death after you have murdered a man.

I don't think it is right.

 

If you break the law of your country, the government of your country and the courts of law would imprison, fine, or even hang you to death. It appears no greater to me than a fascist terminating citizens for not recognising his power.

These Tu Quoques are meaningless. The government of my country is democratic and the punishment for crime in many instances is reasonable, in fact it is infinitely more reasonable than eternal torture in hell for thought crimes. The government would be kicked out of power by the masses if it ever tried to justify punishment for thought crimes.

 

There are 1.6 billions of Muslims all over the world now so it is a success thus reflect the competence of Allah's behalf.

But there is also the other 80% of the global population.

 

If Allah exists and you are saying that you do not believe Allah exists and YOU do not believe the Quran was written by Allah, do you expect Allah to treat you kindly and humanely after you have slandered and insulted Him the Creator?

There is difference between not expecting to be burnt in hell for eternity and an expected to be treated kindly. I would fiercely protest being burnt in hell for a mistaken belief. As I have said, my disbelief of Allah is not from any kind of malevolence or spiteful nature - it is from a conclusion of my experiences of natural phenomena and my gained knowledge. It is a pure mistake. Should I be punished for that?

 

And why is it wrong inherently to defy or ignore the rules of a country that you live or stay in?

It isn't if those rules are unjust.

 

How sincere and well-meaning are they when some of them invent lies to slander and insult Islam and mislead other people by creating and promoting Islamophobia?

They could be very well meaning. Some people really do fear Islam and what you call 'Islamaphobia' they call telling the masses of what they perceive as 'Islamism'.

 

But we're not just talking about them, we're also talking about those who just disbelieve. Those that have only heard of Islam in their PSRE class and those that have largely ignored religion all their lives. Should they go to hell for their disbelief?

 

Why don't they go to any Islamic centers to study Islam if they really want to know Islam for ignorance is not an excuse.

Perhaps they have. You would do better to ask them that.

Edited by wiseguy
I correct the highlighted word. The word should be 'and YOU' not 'I'.

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Hello,

 

It's more like, if one comes across the message of Islam, and he knowingly disbelieves in it, be it due to arrogance, pride etc, and eventually dies in this state, then he/she is regarded as a disbeliever.

 

It may actually be very common for human beings to reject a message despite knowing it being true. Sometimes we attain 'convictions', and other times due to neglegance and bad deeds, it goes down. This is very common among Muslims (ie. someone who is always holding their believe, even though with variation), so I guess there are non-Muslims out their who do not want to accept the message despite realising about its divinity.

 

In Islam, we believe almighty God is just. So if we can present good excuse to Him about our shortcomings in this world, then He is forgiving. At the same time, we shouldn't be 'knowingly' misbehaving, because it leads to bigger rejections due to the growth of pride and arrogance.

 

As always, God knows best.

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these atheists just want to attract attention , they invade peaceful calm websites and forums and tries to complicate everything , they just want some attention , as they arabic saying tells : ( the dogs park and the life just goes on ) ,

 

 

keep talking skavau , yes will write replies to you , but we have our lives and we dont think about what u say except when we write you a post ...

 

 

I am wondering how can anyoone stands himself while he feel such neglicted !

 

I once saw a documentary movie , it's american and it shows a little pretty child hiding behind her mom's back , she was scare of one atheist walking around ! good child !

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these atheists just want to attract attention

Actually, I frequent (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetummah(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/forum"]Ummah[/url] and rarely make any threads at all. I mostly respond to what I see as bigotry, inaccuracies about people. The only person I see trying to get attention is you.

 

they invade peaceful calm websites and forums and tries to complicate everything , they just want some attention , as they arabic saying tells : ( the dogs park and the life just goes on ) ,

You are aware of the purpose of this subforum? This is a forum called 'Answering anti-Islamic Allegations'. I am merely doing what is expected of this forum. If this is too complicated for you then I humbly request you simply do not read it.

 

keep talking skavau , yes will write replies to you , but we have our lives and we dont think about what u say except when we write you a post ...

I don't know what you're talking about. This is my first response in two days. I never even suggested that you think about what I type. Do you enjoy making things up about people?

 

I am wondering how can anyoone stands himself while he feel such neglicted !

Everyone should first of all stand for themselves. Moreover, I assume by 'neglicted' you mean 'neglect' in which case, how do you know I feel such? Stop making things up about me. It is dishonest and completely irrelevant.

 

I once saw a documentary movie , it's american and it shows a little pretty child hiding behind her mom's back , she was scare of one atheist walking around ! good child !

Beware of the boogeymen.

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Skavau,

Please accept my apologies for what MomentsForLife wrote. He does not reflect the friendly atmosphere of this forum. He was warned before, and he just earned himself a new one.

 

We always remind our members to respect everyone, and to use tolerance and gratuity between us. Without that, we cannot represent our case, and probably cause more harm than benefit. We should be thankful and grateful for anyone who accepts our invitation and decides to join our community in peace. Thank you all.

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Practically none.

Therefore, ignorance is not an excuse for not to be punished by any courts of law so ignorance is not an excuse for not to be punished by God since there are many Islamic centers you can visit to learn more about Islam from Islamic scholars.

 

Secular Law is just the separation of religion and state. It is a good thing for a number of reasons. The separation of both religion and state automatically stop religious intervention in the lives of the individual. They provide the basis for every single individual to live their life as they choose to. You can have your lifestyle choices and live by them and likewise so can I, the only restraint is the reasonable request of libertarianism (your right to your freedom ends when it touches my nose).

 

Secular Law is just a hypocrisy of secular countries for it has failed to protect Islam and Muslims when non-Muslims slander and insult Islam, the prophet Muhammad etc. It also fails to stop Islamophobia. These insults and slanders have already touched our noses that means the non-Muslims have transgressed our rights and the secular law has failed to protect our rights as a Muslim. In other word, secular law means freedom to insult and slander Islam and Muslims etc. Secularism is just a form of hypocrisy to condone the insults and slanders.

 

In a secular democratic state you have the option to influence governmental policy and legislation. You have no such influence under a theocratic system. That is because the laws aren't my laws, they are this 'God' characters, whoever He is. I do not therefore recognise the fundamental legitimacy of them, and unless you recognise the religious beliefs that underpin this system, neither should anyone else.

 

In the West, Muslims are the minority so they are unable to influence governmental policy and legislation and the rights of Muslims are often neglected. For example: France backs school head scarf ban - Feb. 10, 2004 The French National Assembly has overwhelmingly approved a proposed controversial ban on Muslim headscarves and other conspicuous religious symbols in you are not allowed to post links yetcnn(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/2004/WORLD/europe/02/10/france.headscarves/index.html

 

What does this mean? The secular French government has transgressed the basic human rights of Muslims etc.

 

I don't think it is right.

 

So you think that the secular courts of law have no right to hang, inject lethal chemical or electrocute you to death after you are found guilty of murdering an innocent person. It seems to me that you don't agree with secular law.

 

These Tu Quoques are meaningless.

 

The two quotes reflect your own writing in the past posts.

 

The government of my country is democratic and the punishment for crime in many instances is reasonable, in fact it is infinitely more reasonable than eternal torture in hell for thought crimes. The government would be kicked out of power by the masses if it ever tried to justify punishment for thought crimes.

 

How reasonable when your government hang, inject lethal chemical or electrocute you to death after you are found guilty of murdering an innocent person since death is eternal according to your (atheist) belief? The US regime is not kicked out power by masses when it attacks, invades and occupies Iraq etc and terrorizes and massacres innocent people in Iraq etc based on lies invented by the US regime. That means the US regime is being supported by ignorant masses who are easily being misinformed, misled and manipulated by the US regime. So the government would not be kicked out of power by the masses if it ever tried to justify punishment for thought crimes.

 

But there is also the other 80% of the global population.

 

The population of the word is 6.6 billions according to CIA's The World Factbook (see also The World Factbook)

and World POPClock Projection, U.S. Census Bureau . The number of Muslims in 2007 is 1.6 billions according to General Sources such as:

POPULATION REFERENCE BUREAU

CIA FACT SHEET

THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS: COUNTRY STUDIES

UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF STATE: BACKGROUND NOTES

US DEPARTMENT OF STATE: INTERNATIONAL INFORMATIOON PROGRAM

HOLT,RINEHART & WINSTON: ATLAS

HOPE FOR EUROPE: RESOURCE/LIBRARY SECTION

Utrecht University

BBC: NEWS

BBC: RELIGION AND ETHICS

CAM INTERNATIONAL: FIELDS

US CENTER FOR WORLD MISSION

 

and 1.8 billions according to Islamic Sources such as :

INTERNATIONAL IslamIC NEWS AGENCY

Ferm, Vergilius (ed.). AN ENCYCLOPEDIA OF RELIGION; Westport, CT: Greenwood Press (1976), pg. 145. [1st pub. in 1945 by Philosophical Library. 1976 reprint is unrevised.]

Islam IN CHINA: by Yusuf Abdul Rahman

PHNOM PHENH POST: Issue 10/22, October 26 - November 8, 2001

VIETNAMESE MUSLIM ASSOCIATION: History of Islam in Vietnam

REPUBLIC OF CHINA YEARBOOK: RELIGION Islam

THE HINDU: `It's easy to exploit Muslims in the name of religion'(Friday, October 01, 1999)

THE MUSLIM NEWS:Vandalized Koran stirs Japan's Muslims(11-06-2001)

ARAB NET

THE KUWAIT INFORMATION OFFICE:Kuwait Country Profile

AME INFO

OTTAWA MUSLIM NETWORK

Islam WEB

 

(Source : (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetislamicpopulation(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetislamicpopulation(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/[/url] )

 

Lets us take 1.7 billions as the average so 1.7 billion Muslims represent 25.76 % of the global population which means that there is a Muslim for every 4 persons. And please remember that we are talking about billions of Muslims.

 

What does this mean? Among every four humans in the world, one of them is Muslim. Muslims have increased by over 235 percent in the last fifty years up to nearly 1.6 billion. By comparison, Christians have increased by only 47 percent, Hinduism, 117 percent, and Buddhism by 63 percent. Islam is the second largest religious group in France, Great Britain and USA. Source : (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetislamicweb(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/begin/religions_changes.htm"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetislamicweb(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/begin/religions_changes.htm[/url]

Edited by wiseguy

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There is difference between not expecting to be burnt in hell for eternity and an expected to be treated kindly. I would fiercely protest being burnt in hell for a mistaken belief. As I have said, my disbelief of Allah is not from any kind of malevolence or spiteful nature - it is from a conclusion of my experiences of natural phenomena and my gained knowledge. It is a pure mistake. Should I be punished for that?

 

Are you the wisest of the wisest men? Scientists also make mistakes and their mistakes are refuted by other scientists based on new discoveries, formula, experiments, researches etc. Lets say that you have made a wrong conclusion of your experiences of natural phenomena and your gained knowledge so your wrong conclusion would lead you to conclude falsely that God doesn't exist. By rejecting the existence of the Creator (Allah), you have insulted and slandered Allah while you are living in the world that is created by Allah.

 

Can you create and manage a new universe even though you can make a table and chairs? You can't even ensure that your table and chairs would last forever when they rot to dust. We know that a carpenter may make them and we also know that a blacksmith who forges objects of iron so we know that things are created. We know that neither carpenter nor blacksmith could create the universe. The BIG question is who created the universe. Can you create the universe by yourself? Do think atheists create the universe? Can you atheists control and manage the universe? Can you make the sun to orbit the earth? Do you think that the universe exist spontaneously? Do you exist spontaneously? Can you atheists create an atom from nothing? Or a frog from nothing?

 

Lets take an example: If you work for Mr A but you help Mr B while ignoring your duty for Mr A. Do you deserve to be paid by Mr A for the work you have done for Mr B without his permission? Can you protest for being not paid by Mr A? So you have no right to ask Allah to exempt you from the hell since you deny His existence and law.

 

If you go to USA and you ignore all the rules in USA, I am sure you would be punished for breaking the rules and ignoring the existence of the US regime. If Allah has created this universe and you deny His law and existence as the Creator of this universe by making a wrong conclusion based on your experiences of natural phenomena and your gained knowledge, you deserved to be in hell for denying His existence. After all, He has sent numerous prophets and messengers to all mankind and the prophet Muhammad is His last messenger and Islam is His religion so that people including you can study Islam and decide whether to accept it or not and you are going to be responsible for your own decision so ignorance is not an acceptable excuse for you to enter heaven and escape hell. We live in modern world so we have so many facilities to study Islam. Why don't you go to any Islamic centers and discuss your problems with Islamic scholars? You are responsible for your own actions. Please do not slander Allah by saying falsely that Allah is cruel after you have insulted and slandered Him by saying that God does not exist.

 

It isn't if those rules are unjust.
So you admit that some rules of secular law of secular countries are unjust.

 

Legal systems around the world elaborate legal rights and responsibilities in different ways. Laws and legal systems reflect the society and culture out of which they arise. The differences indicate that the secular law is not a universal law for it is limited by the boundary of the countries.

 

On the contrary, Islamic Law is universal and just. Islam gives Muslims and non-Muslims the right to justice:

 

The Right To Justice

 

This is a very important and valuable right which Islam has given to man. The Holy Qur’an has laid down: "Do not let your hatred of a people incite you to aggression" (5:3). "And do not let ill-will towards any folk incite you so that you swerve from dealing justly. Be just; that is nearest to heedfulness" (5:8). Stressing this point the Qur’an again says: "You who believe stand steadfast before Allah as witness for (truth and) fair play" (4:135).

 

The point is thus made clear that Muslims have to be just not only to their friends but also their enemies. In other words, Islamic Law is not limited to the citizens of one's own country, or the people of one's own tribe, nation or race, or the Muslim community as a whole; it is meant for all human beings.

 

For example, Christian are five to seven per cent of the population of countries like Jordan, Syria, and Egypt, and have been living there peacefully for over 1400 years. Nobody put them in detention camps during the massacre of 70,000 Muslims in Jerusalem during the Crusade wars, which took place in those particular areas, nor were they harmed during the massacre of the Muslims and the Jews in Spain in 1492. It is against Islam to punish those for crimes committed by other Christians.

 

On the contrary, Japanese people were put in US detention camps after Pearl Harbour was attacked by Japanese forces during the World War II.

 

You may refer to this website that shows the superiority of Islamic Law over Secular Law and secular countries:

 

Rights Of Citizens In An Islamic State

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetjamaat(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/Islam/HumanRightsCitizens.html"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetjamaat(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/Islam/HumanRightsCitizens.html[/url]

 

They could be very well meaning. Some people really do fear Islam and what you call 'Islamaphobia' they call telling the masses of what they perceive as 'Islamism'.

Do the enemies of Islam have any right to slander and insult Islam and mislead and misinform other people to hate Islam and Muslims?

 

But we're not just talking about them, we're also talking about those who just disbelieve. Those that have only heard of Islam in their PSRE class and those that have largely ignored religion all their lives. Should they go to hell for their disbelief?Perhaps they have. You would do better to ask them that.

 

We are living in the modern world so we have modern facilities to study Islam so ignorance is not an acceptable excuse. We know people go abroad for further studies so why not study Islam before making any wrong conclusions against Islam.

Edited by wiseguy

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If, on being 'presented' with Islam, a non-believer does not believe, it's hardly the fault of the non-believer. If someone has to be at fault (and I don't think anyone is, but apparently Allah does) surely it's the person 'presenting' Islam.

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The Holy Quran 2:

 

256 Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

 

257 Allah is the Protector of those who have faith: from the depths of darkness He will lead them forth into light. Of those who reject faith the patrons are the evil ones: from light they will lead them forth into the depths of darkness. They will be companions of the fire, to dwell therein (For ever).

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Therefore, ignorance is not an excuse for not to be punished by any courts of law so ignorance is not an excuse for not to be punished by God since there are many Islamic centers you can visit to learn more about Islam from Islamic scholars.

Ignorance is not an excuse indeed. If you commit a crime such as rape or murder, it is meaningless to declare 'I did not know' because the act of rape and murder in and of themselves are totally reprehensible. What I am putting forward is that mere actions of thought are indeed not reprehensible and something which ought not be punished. The act of disbelief in Islam is simply a conclusion an individual might come to after a certain experience with natural phenomena and a certain gain of specific knowledge.

 

Moreover, not everyone can necessarily learn Islam so easily and not everyone who disbelieves in Islam is ignorant about Islam.

 

Secular Law is just a hypocrisy of secular countries for it has failed to protect Islam and Muslims when non-Muslims slander and insult Islam, the prophet Muhammad etc.

It is not the job of a secular state to stop people insulting or mocking Islam. The same goes with every religion.

 

It also fails to stop Islamophobia. These insults and slanders have already touched our noses that means the non-Muslims have transgressed our rights and the secular law has failed to protect our rights as a Muslim.

You don't have a right to not be 'offended'. I find it repulsive that some Muslims (or political correct nutjobs) seem to demand special exemption rules, removing Islam from public criticism and/or mockery. eIf the state was to actually do anything like that, then the state would no longr be Secular.

 

In other word, secular law means freedom to insult and slander Islam and Muslims etc. Secularism is just a form of hypocrisy to condone the insults and slanders.

No, Secular Law means the separation of religion and state. It is not focused around Islam, for applied Secularism precedes any notable Islamic presence in Secular countries.

 

In the West, Muslims are the minority so they are unable to influence governmental policy and legislation and the rights of Muslims are often neglected.

Lots of minorities complain about their rights being neglected.

 

For example: France backs school head scarf ban - Feb. 10, 2004 The French National Assembly has overwhelmingly approved a proposed controversial ban on Muslim headscarves and other conspicuous religious symbols in ...you are not allowed to post links yetcnn(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/2004/WORLD/europe/02/10/france.headscarves/index.html

 

What does this mean? The secular French government has transgressed the basic human rights of Muslims etc.

That's the French case. I do not agree with that.

 

So you think that the secular courts of law have no right to hang, inject lethal chemical or electrocute you to death after you are found guilty of murdering an innocent person. It seems to me that you don't agree with secular law.

You are demonstrating a flimsy understanding of Secularism. Secularism is not so much a law as a principle - the principle that state ought to be separated from religion. You seem to think that as I am a self-proclaimed Secularist, I am compelled to unconditionally support any laws in any Secular state. This is utterly false, for the laws enacted in most Secular states do not come from Secularism but other political ideologies such as Liberalism, Libertarianism, Conservatism etc.

 

And I disagree with the death penalty.

 

How reasonable when your government hang, inject lethal chemical or electrocute you to death after you are found guilty of murdering an innocent person since death is eternal according to your (atheist) belief?

My government?

 

The US regime is not kicked out power by masses when it attacks, invades and occupies Iraq etc and terrorizes and massacres innocent people in Iraq etc based on lies invented by the US regime. That means the US regime is being supported by ignorant masses who are easily being misinformed, misled and manipulated by the US regime. So the government would not be kicked out of power by the masses if it ever tried to justify punishment for thought crimes.

Sorry, I think you better check precisely where I live before deciding what my government does and does not do.

 

And any further discussion into the above is getting completely off topic in every way.

 

Lets us take 1.7 billions as the average so 1.7 billion Muslims represent 25.76 % of the global population which means that there is a Muslim for every 4 persons. And please remember that we are talking about billions of Muslims.

Even with my 20% presumption, we were still talking about billions.

 

Moreover, this is my source (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_Lets%20us%20take%201.7%20billions%20as%20the%20average%20so%201.7%20billion%20Muslims%20represent%2025.76%20%%20of%20the%20global%20population%20which%20means%20that%20there%20is%20a%20Muslim%20for%20every%204%20persons.%20And%20please%20remember%20that%20we%20are%20talking%20about%20billions%20of%20Muslims"]Adherents[/url].

 

And concerning your final assertion, Islam is growing at base through high birthrates and through expansion via immigration.

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Are you the wisest of the wisest men?

No.

 

Scientists also make mistakes and their mistakes are refuted by other scientists based on new discoveries, formula, experiments, researches etc.

Yes.

 

Lets say that you have made a wrong conclusion of your experiences of natural phenomena and your gained knowledge so your wrong conclusion would lead you to conclude falsely that God doesn't exist.

Which under your world view, I have. Unless you deny the sincerity of disbelief.

 

By rejecting the existence of the Creator (Allah), you have insulted and slandered Allah while you are living in the world that is created by Allah.

Where is the insult, precisely? If you say to me that you have just won the lottery, and I don't believe you - am I insulting you? The response that I give regarding your claim there is based on sincere disbelief as is my disbelief of the existence of God. Allah has always known under your world view that people would be of the assertion that he does not exist. He would have always known that people would come to such conclusions.

I am sorry that I might be 'insulting' or 'slandering' Allah, but those are irrelevant to the basis of my disbelief. The basis being that I see no evidence for Allah's existence. And moreover, is slander or insult good reason for eternal torture?

 

Can you create and manage a new universe even though you can make a table and chairs?

No.

 

You can't even ensure that your table and chairs would last forever when they rot to dust. We know that a carpenter may make them and we also know that a blacksmith who forges objects of iron so we know that things are created. We know that neither carpenter nor blacksmith could create the universe.

Yes. We do know this.

 

The BIG question is who created the universe.

Wrong. That might be your big question but it is not the big question of those without bias. The actual questions are or can be: What is the universe? What are the origins of the universe? Is there an origin to the universe? We do not have enough information at all to presume that it was created.

 

Can you create the universe by yourself? Do think atheists create the universe?

No. Both beliefs stated above would be irrational.

 

? Can you atheists control and manage the universe? Can you make the sun to orbit the earth? Do you think that the universe exist spontaneously? Do you exist spontaneously? Can you atheists create an atom from nothing? Or a frog from nothing?

No, to all of the above.

 

Lets take an example: If you work for Mr A but you help Mr B while ignoring your duty for Mr A. Do you deserve to be paid by Mr A for the work you have done for Mr B without his permission?

No.

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Continued

 

Can you protest for being not paid by Mr A? So you have no right to ask Allah to exempt you from the hell since you deny His existence and law.

This is a inaccurate analogy. To reconcile it with what you're referring it to - I would actually have no knowledge of working for 'Mr A'. No-one ever told me that I was working for him. Also to reconcile your assertion there with that of Allah, Mr A would also have a policy of punishing those who do not work for him. Seeing that Mr A did not tell me or I did not see any evidence that I was working with him and seeing how Mr A knew that I had no knowledge of working for him it would be irrational for Mr A to expect me to work for him. Seeing also that he has a policy of torture for those who do not work for him, I wouldn't actually want to work with him.

 

That is a comparable analogy with Allah. And it does not look good.

 

If you go to USA and you ignore all the rules in USA, I am sure you would be punished for breaking the rules and ignoring the existence of the US regime.

No. Only if you broke any laws. Ignoring the laws doesn't matter.

 

If Allah has created this universe and you deny His law and existence as the Creator of this universe by making a wrong conclusion based on your experiences of natural phenomena and your gained knowledge, you deserved to be in hell for denying His existence.

Why? Since when has torture been a just punishment for 'thought crimes'? Not since the days of the Third Reich and Stalinism have thought crimes ever been a basis for punishment. You are comparing God to a tyrant.

 

After all, He has sent numerous prophets and messengers to all mankind and the prophet Muhammad is His last messenger and Islam is His religion so that people including you can study Islam and decide whether to accept it or not and you are going to be responsible for your own decision so ignorance is not an acceptable excuse for you to enter heaven and escape hell.

I suggest you reread the opening post. This extract above presumes that belief is in fact, a choice - when it is not. I will repeat.

 

"So belief is not a choice, and nor is it also vindictive by nature. I might be an Atheist, but I am not an Atheist because of a 'hatred of belief' or 'arrogance' or 'denial' or for any other rhetoric that some theists like to pretend I am, but I am an Atheist because I contest the existence of a God. I am a Soft Atheist in that I do not declare that there is no God but I simply disbelieve in the assertion that there is a God. As stated, my disbelief in the God proposition rests with skepticism and lack of evidence and/or reason under my world view to suppose a God. I cannot at all 'change' my belief because I would have to be sincerely convinced of its falsehood and/or the validity of another belief to do so."

 

We live in modern world so we have so many facilities to study Islam. Why don't you go to any Islamic centers and discuss your problems with Islamic scholars?

What problems do you speak of precisely? The above paragraph presumes that I actually believe Islam is the case but cannot believe it. This is false. My own belief is that Islam is simply another religion. It has no more significance than Christianity, Hinduism and Sikhism in terms of claims to the absolute truth. hat reason do I have to pick Islam first over other beliefs? What reason do I have to study any beliefs at all?

 

Please do not slander Allah by saying falsely that Allah is cruel after you have insulted and slandered Him by saying that God does not exist.

So my own belief is in fact an 'insult' and a 'slander'? Simply me being an Atheist is slanderous, is it?

 

And I am not saying Allah is cruel, because I do not believe in Allah. I am saying torture for thought crimes is fundamentally morally wrong.

 

So you admit that some rules of secular law of secular countries are unjust.

Yes.

 

Legal systems around the world elaborate legal rights and responsibilities in different ways. Laws and legal systems reflect the society and culture out of which they arise. The differences indicate that the secular law is not a universal law for it is limited by the boundary of the countries.

There is no such thing as Secular Law. Secularism is just a principle.

 

On the contrary, Islamic Law is universal and just. Islam gives Muslims and non-Muslims the right to justice:

This is off-topic.

 

Do the enemies of Islam have any right to slander and insult Islam and mislead and misinform other people to hate Islam and Muslims?

They can insult and slander Islam all they like.

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QUOTE(######)

The BIG question is who created the universe.

 

 

QUOTE(Skavau) Wrong. That might be your big question but it is not the big question of those without bias. The actual questions are or can be: What is the universe? What are the origins of the universe? Is there an origin to the universe? We do not have enough information at all to presume that it was created.

 

So you atheists do not have enough information at all to presume that the universe was created which means you atheists have limited knowledge about the universe. Now please tell me what or who caused the BIG Bang to happen.

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