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Skavau

Torture In Hell

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Yes. But your argument appears to just an assertion of might equals right.

 

Whereas yours appears to be nothing more than "I believe, therefore I am right".

 

Someone with the ability to do so.

 

Poor argument. Anyone can argue for or against something, but that hardly makes it accepted by everyone else.

 

Moreover, my argument is that these 'duties' I have been created for (under the Islamic world view) are duties in which the creator would be irrational in expecting everyone to commit themselves to them with present case existence.

 

My argument is that it is not. If God is irrational to you in this case, then you appear be self-serving and egotistical.

 

This can be summed up as basically saying 'God is exempt from criticism'.

 

Criticize God however much you like. But it's ridiculous of you to think that your scale of "just" and "unjust" is either universally accepted by humanity, or identical to that of God.

 

God under an Islamic world view has always known that the majority of people would not believe in him for many reasons (mostly around the lack oevidence for God's existence).

 

And because He knew what would happen, that is enough basis for the punishment to be lessened? Right.

 

God is also aware that belief is not a choice that an individual can make, only motives are a choice and yet you are saying that God punishes specific beliefs in and of themselves rather than an individuals motives leading up to those beliefs

 

You personally believe that belief is not a choice, when I have been arguing all along that it is. Belief is a choice, otherwise we would all believe in things that we had no desire to. The fact that you say "God is also aware that belief is not a choice" shows what a single-track mind you have.

 

Belief is gained through your own choices, to an extent.

 

Belief is gained through our own choices, period.

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If I choose to study Hinduism but conclude that it is incorrect - I cannot change that belief. That is just what my mind concluded.

 

Uh, no. It is your choice, after studying Hinduism, to disbelieve in it. Belief is not an on and off switch that is beyond the human being's control. Belief, like knowledge, is gained through efforts and actions.

 

The point is that you could not just suddenly decide sincerely to believe in Christianity,

 

That's a horrible point. How can I have belief in something that I choose not to believe in? I have no desire currently to believe in Christianity. Therefore, my belief remains my choice.

 

1. Whoever strives towards Islam (even if they don't believe in it) will be considered a Muslim

 

Never said anything remotely like this. I said "will become a Muslim", not "will be considered a Muslim".

 

2. Whoever strives towards Islam will conclude Islam.

 

Allah guides those who seek Him.

 

This is pure arrogance. You have no idea what apostates go through. They often go through incredibly difficult times coming to terms with the reality of their disbelief in a religion they have previously held through their life or fighting the reality of said scenario that they can no longer sincerely believe in their religion.

 

You are trying to reinforce your "belief is not a choice" opinion by playing on emotions. You remain wrong. No one wakes up one morning and, without any reason whatsoever, loses their belief entirely. It is a gradual process that is reinforced by the person's day to day choices and actions. In the case of Islam, no one will EVER lose their faith in Islam unless they have done or experienced something that affects their belief system. And from that point on, it is the choices they make that will determine the outcome. Will they turn to God and ask for strength? Will they ask God to protect them from the influence of Shaytan? Or will they allow their thoughts to wander, and distance themselves from God? After all, guidance is a gift from God, and guidance is only given to those who make the choice to seek it.

 

They cannot control what they have concluded.

 

They can, and they chose otherwise.

 

The simple destruction on earth through natural disasters is enough to conclude imperfection.

 

Not really. Natural disasters are nothing more than the consequences of nature. If the Earth truly were imperfect, it would not survive these natural disasters, and neither would life.

 

The destruction that meteorites cause on planets is not what I would call perfect.

 

And yet, the universe keeps on going, doesn't it? If it were imperfect, such occurences would off-set the precarious balance of the universe. It has not.

 

A list of impact craters on the moon would literally take up pages.

 

I wasn't aware that the moon was so severely impacted that it was completely destroyed, along with the Earth.

 

For a perfect universe, things seem to crash into each other a lot.

 

For such an imperfect universe, it's a wonder that it still exists. Or that the Earth exists.

Edited by Redeem

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It is first based on the notion that a specific conclusion

 

lol. Whose specific conclusion?

Secondly, it is based on the assertion

 

Whose assertion? If I go off to somewhere in Africa and find, say, a Masai herding cattle and living a simple life, will he give me this same response? Really, now.

 

Thirdly, it is based on the assertion

 

Who is making these assertions and conclusions? I'd like to meet him.

 

The first example you cite is a neglection of duty. When you bear a child you take it upon you to bring up that child.

 

Neglect of duty arising from what? Malice? Ill-intentions? Or apathy?

 

If such a woman stands up in court and says she had no ill-intentions toward her child, but that she simply had apathy, would they care?

 

The second example is not against the law.

 

In some countries, it is a criminal act to be present at a harmful situation, and refuse to provide assistance (by calling the police, for example).

 

An example of this would be France, and an example of a situation would be after princess Diana's death. Photographers who were present during the scene of the accident were charged with this law, because they did not attempt to help but were too busy taking photographs.

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetpbs(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/newshour/bb/law/july-dec97/french_9-3.html"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetpbs(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/newshour/bb/law/july-de...french_9-3.html[/url]

 

Why is it the worst thing a human being can do?

 

Solely for the reason that human beings were created to believe and to worship God, and neglecting to do so is to neglect fulfilling your only duty.

 

And your reasoning for that is 'God says it is fair therefore it is fair'.

 

That's a lot better than your reasoning, which is "I say it is, therefore it is".

 

Salam.

Edited by Redeem

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Whereas yours appears to be nothing more than "I believe, therefore I am right".

Actually, I have given reasons. The punishment is for a disproportionate amount of time (eternity) and belief is not something which an individual ought to be punished for because it is not a choice and it harms no-one.

 

Poor argument. Anyone can argue for or against something, but that hardly makes it accepted by everyone else.

Correct. But you asked who am I to argue, and I said - someone able to do so.

 

My argument is that it is not. If God is irrational to you in this case, then you appear be self-serving and egotistical.

How does thinking that Gods demands are irrational mean I am self-serving and egotistical?

 

Criticize God however much you like. But it's ridiculous of you to think that your scale of "just" and "unjust" is either universally accepted by humanity, or identical to that of God.

I never said that my understanding of ethics was universally accepted by humanity. Moreover what is this 'God' fellow? Just because you assume that God is unquestionable, uncriticisable and higher than man does not mean I have to. I am not actually criticising any God specifically, just what a specific concept of God plans to do with those who disbelieve in him. I am criticising eternal torture in hell for a 'thought crime'.

 

And because He knew what would happen, that is enough basis for the punishment to be lessened? Right.

It means he designed us knowing the majority of us would not fulfill the tasks he demanded. He knew that people would sincerely disbelieve in him and he knows what is required to change that.

 

You personally believe that belief is not a choice, when I have been arguing all along that it is. Belief is a choice, otherwise we would all believe in things that we had no desire to.

The part in bold is exactly what happens with those who eventually become apostates. Their beliefs change to what they do not want them to be and they fight it.

 

Uh, no. It is your choice, after studying Hinduism, to disbelieve in it.

Except it isn't. I could not after studying Hinduism equally choose to believe it or disbelieve in it if I sincerely cannot reconcile belief in Hinduism with reality.

 

Belief is not an on and off switch that is beyond the human being's control. Belief, like knowledge, is gained through efforts and actions.

Belief in specific things are the consequences of an individuals exposure to natural phenomena and learned knowledge. While an individual may attempt to direct his or her belief to specific things, if an individual finds that a specific belief is not reconcilable with reality then he or she will not be able to sincerely uphold that belief.

 

Learning is a choice, what you conclude from it is not.

 

That's a horrible point. How can I have belief in something that I choose not to believe in?

You couldn't. That's the point. And your 'choice' not to be a Christian comes purely from your belief in Islam and your criticism of Christianity (I assume you have some). You could not just stop believing in Islam either because you sincerely believe Islam is true.

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Never said anything remotely like this. I said "will become a Muslim", not "will be considered a Muslim".

So then this: "There is absolute guarantee that you will become a Muslim if your sole ambition is to be guided on the path of righteousness. No if's, or's, and but's about it." means that you think everyone who's sole ambition is to be guided on the path of righteousness is to become a Muslim. Do you mean that the only righteous path is Islam?

 

You are trying to reinforce your "belief is not a choice" opinion by playing on emotions. You remain wrong.

So you don't think apostates (before apostating) try to fight their disbelief?

 

No one wakes up one morning and, without any reason whatsoever, loses their belief entirely. It is a gradual process that is reinforced by the person's day to day choices and actions.

Correct.

 

In the case of Islam, no one will EVER lose their faith in Islam unless they have done or experienced something that affects their belief system.

Yes. Natural phenomena affects one's own beliefs. You're not challenging my position so far.

 

And from that point on, it is the choices they make that will determine the outcome.

Choice of actions lead to different experiences of natural phenomena and different knowledge. The outcome of observation and gain of knowledge can effect one's belief. That outcome which effects your belief is uncontrollable.

 

Will they turn to God and ask for strength? Will they ask God to protect them from the influence of Shaytan? Or will they allow their thoughts to wander, and distance themselves from God?

These are actions that some could take if they find that their belief is changing towards Islam, yes and through the actions taken - their belief can change - but it is not a controllable change.

 

Presume a Christian finding it tough to keep faith. This Christian decides to visit an Apologist resource website. He reads up on things he cannot understand and finds rationale in them and his faith becomes stronger. He has gained knowledge here and the knowledge gained has now affected his belief in Christianity for the better. The next day he goes outside and finds out that a natural disaster has taken place, killing hundreds of people. He now has a new dilemma in that he finds it hard to reconcile such an event with a benevolent God watching over humanity. He cannot just decide to dismiss this belief and think nothing of it, it is a new dilemma.

 

They can, and they chose otherwise.

Except they can't. Usually an apostate of a religion simply comes to terms with his/her disbelief and rejects their belief officially.

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Neglect of duty arising from what? Malice? Ill-intentions? Or apathy?

 

If such a woman stands up in court and says she had no ill-intentions toward her child, but that she simply had apathy, would they care?

This is then apathy that effects others. Apathy in belief effects no-one. Not wanting to search for a religion hurts no-one. Why should disinterest in searching for the ultimate truth be grounds for eternal torture?

 

Solely for the reason that human beings were created to believe and to worship God, and neglecting to do so is to neglect fulfilling your only duty.

Why is this duty right? Why should we all follow it?

 

That's a lot better than your reasoning, which is "I say it is, therefore it is".

Except that's not my reasoning. I gave three reasons as to why I see it is as unjust.

 

Not really. Natural disasters are nothing more than the consequences of nature. If the Earth truly were imperfect, it would not survive these natural disasters, and neither would life.

This makes no sense. Your definition of perfect appears to be simply something that can survive fault, in which case everything is perfect. These appear to be very low standards.

 

And yet, the universe keeps on going, doesn't it? If it were imperfect, such occurences would off-set the precarious balance of the universe. It has not.

See above.

 

lol. Whose specific conclusion?

Are you looking to find universal agreement? You asked my reasoning behind claiming that eternal punishment in hell is unjust. I just gave three reasons.

 

Do you have responses to the reasons?

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And because He knew what would happen [that some peple would not be able to believe and would thus go to hell for eternity], that is enough basis for the punishment to be lessened? Right.

 

It's enough that a self-aware supreme being might question his/her motives for creating people in the first place, and it's surely enough that a sensible human would despise this god, even if out of fear they did not do so openly.

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It's enough that a self-aware supreme being might question his/her motives for creating people in the first place, and it's surely enough that a sensible human would despise this god, even if out of fear they did not do so openly.

 

And what are you basing this statement on? Who are you to arrive at the conclusion that a "self-aware supreme being" might question His motives? Why do atheists say "this is what should happen" and "this is what is right", and simply expect the rest of us to agree?

 

Skavau, allow me to summarize our debate so far:

"Belief is not a choice"

"Yes, it is"

"No, it's not"

"Yes, it is"

"Nuh uh"

"Uh huh"

"Nuh uh"

"Uh huh"

 

Unless there is something specific you want me to reply to (that we haven't already endlessly argued over), I'm not too excited to jump back into that particular debate.

 

Salam.

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This is to Skavau listen brother or sister muslims cannot tell you if you are going to hell. The QURAN teaches that this is for GOD to decied not man of any religious order. Look just be a good person and if you dont believe in GOD when you die you will find out the truth. As a muslim we dont even now for certain that there is a GOD however we believe that there is a GOD.

 

This is called faith, and your right you dont have to have faith you dont even have to belive in GOD. just be a good person and according to Islam if you are a good person and die and you die not fully understanding that there is a GOD or beliving that there is a GOD. Then i belive that GOD will not send you to hell if you are ignorant of HIM. For muslims the quran says that on the day of judgment some people will see other people entering into paradise before them. And Allah will turn to those who have not entered and say are these my devoutees you swore would not enter my paradise?

 

NOW just imagine that we look at Skavau like hes going to burn in hell now imagine seeing him going into paradise before you. Now imagine Allah asks you the question!! SO the be final we dont know if your going to hell for not beliving in GOD. But for us muslims we will continue to have faith in the unseen and if when we die there happens to be a GOD and a paradise and a hell. At least in my life i made an investment with good deeds and being a good person and maybe that will get me into the paradise.

 

SO to Skavau is it not wise to make some sort of investment while your alive? Just in case there is a GOD wouldnt you want to make an investment for the afterlife just in case you are wrong and Allah or GOD REALLY DOES exist??? Think about it brother or sister salaam(peace)

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you dont have to have faith you dont even have to belive in GOD.

 

The Qur'an tells us:

Allah has promised the hypocrites -- men and women -- and the disbelievers, the fire of Hell; therein shall they abide. It will suffice them. Allah has cursed them and for them is the lasting torment. [9:68]

 

Salam.

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This is to Skavau listen brother or sister muslims cannot tell you if you are going to hell. The QURAN teaches that this is for GOD to decied not man of any religious order. Look just be a good person and if you dont believe in GOD when you die you will find out the truth. As a muslim we dont even now for certain that there is a GOD however we believe that there is a GOD.

Okay.

 

This is called faith, and your right you dont have to have faith you dont even have to belive in GOD. just be a good person and according to Islam if you are a good person and die and you die not fully understanding that there is a GOD or beliving that there is a GOD. Then i belive that GOD will not send you to hell if you are ignorant of HIM. For muslims the quran says that on the day of judgment some people will see other people entering into paradise before them. And Allah will turn to those who have not entered and say are these my devoutees you swore would not enter my paradise?

Okay.

 

 

SO to Skavau is it not wise to make some sort of investment while your alive? Just in case there is a GOD wouldnt you want to make an investment for the afterlife just in case you are wrong and Allah or GOD REALLY DOES exist??? Think about it brother or sister salaam(peace)

Pascal's Wager is a completely flawed and dishonest argument. First of all, the assertion that there is more to gain by simply being a Muslim over an Atheist or Agnostic has absolutely nothing to do with wherever Islam is true or not. All you are doing is attempting to give a reason to believe based on fear. You are advocating that an individual should believe X because of Y. This is an appeal to consequences fallacy.

 

Do you also think it is honest to believe in something because if it is true then a God will damn you to hell for all eternity? I would only be believing through fear rather than sincerity. It also does not guarantee belief. If I came to you and said that you should become a Christian because it is the safer option in the afterlife, would you be convinced of the truth claim of Christianity? You likely would not.

 

The main flaw in Pascal's Wagers basis comes regarding its truth value of proclaiming that believing in X has better results than Y. It is false. If the Fundamentalist Christians are correct then you will be burning in hell for all eternity. If various Islamic sects are correct then you might be burning in hell for all eternity. Anyone could end up being wrong and consequently anyone could end up burning in hell for all eternity for their beliefs. So the premise of the argument is rendered redundant.

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And what are you basing this statement on? Who are you to arrive at the conclusion that a "self-aware supreme being" might question His motives?

 

Who am I to question the motives of a god? Surely this is what you did when you arrived at your rational (= by choice) decision to become a Muslim? Surely you decided that a supreme being must be supremely good, otherwise it woldn't BE supreme? I too have considered whether this god of yours is supremely good, and I have decided that setting up a world in which millions of people are pre-destined to sufffer tortures for eternity is not the action of a good being. It inevitably follows from this that I don't think your god is the supreme being.

 

Why do atheists say "this is what should happen" and "this is what is right", and simply expect the rest of us to agree?

 

Well, that sort of thing is hardly unknown to members of evangelising religions, is it?

 

But I'm actually an agnostic rather than an atheist. If I was presented with compelling evidence for the existence of a god I would accept that that god existed. The emotional evidence for some sort of earth-based pantheism is quite strong, I find, and thus I'm sypmathetic to multi-theistic religions. I find the emotional, rational, whatever evidence for monotheism to be much weaker.

Edited by fallow

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TO SKAVAU you are absolutly right, Islam says no forcing in religion. please donot except any religion, man!! with the way the world and people in religion give religion i cant see why anyone would want to follow any religion. Islam focuses on your heart and how pure your intentions are, so just be a good person in this life do good deeds. And when you die if there is a GOD then HE will judge you on your heart. THE Quran teaches that if you dont want to follow any religion alright then dont, just be a good person, like i said when you die if your right and there is no such thing of GOD then you was right but if your wrong.... then GOD will judge you on your heart your deeds.

 

In Islam a kaffa is a person who covers the truth up with falsehood, this is called a disbeliever. If you donot know any truth about GOD and you have no good logical explaintion of HIM then you cant be a disbeliever you are not a kaffa you are not covering anything up. The people of religion are giving religion a bad name giving GOD a bad name because they have left off rational thinking.

 

Skavau the only thing i can say to you concerning HELL and religion and GOD , is to just be the best human being you can be, and if you are interested in reading the QURAN then do so. If not just be a good be an example to those phoney religious people by having a good heart and when you die if there is a GOD and HE is most merciful then you wouldnot have to worry about the concept of Hell because that GOD will reward you for your deeds. Take care dear brother or sister i dont know your gender forgive me. salaam (peace).

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If you donot know any truth about GOD and you have no good logical explaintion of HIM then you cant be a disbeliever you are not a kaffa you are not covering anything up.

 

But who decides what is "a good logical explanation"? I've never seem one, yet many Muslims would consider that they have given me plenty.

 

This may be a translation problem, but what is the difference between a "disbeliever" (which is apparently a very bad thing) and a "non-believer" (which is apparently less bad)?

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You decied you use your own rational thinking if your rational thinking tells you there is no GOD ok, if it

tells you there is ok. I wont try to insult your intellect by telling you what is rational thinking and what is logical, that could go on forever!!

 

GOD has giving you a brain and common sense you use your own rational thinking, and if what you have as your rational thinking can stand up and not be pulled apart then you have something solid. But if it can be pulled apart and is not solid you must do some more deep thinking using your rational mind to arrive at something solid unshakeable.

 

To me a dis believer and a non believer are the same ill try to give you an example. If somthing is in a state of nonconformity this means that they refuse or they fail to conform to accepted standards likewise if you are in a state of disconformity you refuse or you fail to conform. So both mean the same, so is the case for disbeliever and nonbeliver.

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Brother twoswordali, I know you have good intentions, but disbelief is exactly what it implies; disbelief. Anyone who makes the conscious decision not to become a believer is a disbeliever, regardless of ignorance.

 

Salam.

Edited by Redeem

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GOD has giving you a brain and common sense you use your own rational thinking, and if what you have as your rational thinking can stand up and not be pulled apart then you have something solid. But if it can be pulled apart and is not solid you must do some more deep thinking using your rational mind to arrive at something solid unshakeable.

 

Thank you twoswordali - that's exactly how I feel about it (except that I don't think god gave me the brain :sl:).

 

Redeem, I really don't understand how anyone can make a conscious decision to not believe. (Which gets us back on topic.) To me you are saying that a disbeliever thinks "I believe in god but I choose not to believe in god". That doesn't make sense.

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My dear sister redeem in our religion Islam it teaches us that to be a disbeliever one must already be a believer. Lets use you for an example, if you were to denounce Islam and become an athiest then you becom a disbeliever. Why because you believed in Islam followed its teachings then you of your own accord chose to not follow it any more. So you went from belief to disbelief, no longer a believer.

 

Now if someone never accepted the IslamIC faith then they never was a believer and if they dont follow or believe in Allah (GOD) they do not qualify to be labled as a disbeliever. The QURAN is clear on this and this is what it teaches.

 

Hears another rational example sister, if i say that i dislike chocolate cookies and you ask me, well which brand do you dislike? and i say all brands and you ask have you ever tasted a chocolate cookie and i say NO. UHH wouldnt you see that i have some sort of sickness in dealing with chocolate cookies, wouldnt you say you cannot dislike something that you have never tried. wouldnt you say that i have a mental disorder when it comes to chocolate cookies but i dont dislike chocolate cookies because i never tasted them.

 

IN short what im saying is that we can not call someone a disbeliever if they never truly believed in GOD. AS SALAAM ALAKIUM

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Dot said "Materialistic matter is not all there is, there are other creations that we may never encounter in this life. Its ridiculous to think that we can understand all this, not to mention measuring or judging it. Atheists are rdiculously arrogants."

 

I have to take acception with that.

 

Most atheists admit there is allot they don't know, like they don't claim to know what came before the Big Bang. Infact many atheists say they don't know if the universe was created or not. They just assert they see no evidence for a creator and even less for a personal god who intervenes in human affairs, rewards, punishes and cares about being believed in.

 

So athiests say I see no evidence.

 

Theists say what we know is perfect, we know the creator of the universe, we know his name, we know his will and he loves us but will torture you for all eternity.

 

The atheist view is far less arrogant.

 

PS: atheists also say that we are an unimportant species evolved from single cell organisms residing on a tiny planet in the backwaters of a spiral arm in an insignificant galaxy. Theists say we are created by god and we are part of his devine plan.

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If not believing in Allah is the worst thing a human can do, does that make all non believers worse than a Muslim who has raped and murdered people?

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The atheist view is far less arrogant.

 

Belief in God is arrogance? Sure it is.

 

If not believing in Allah is the worst thing a human can do, does that make all non believers worse than a Muslim who has raped and murdered people?

 

Are crimes against humanity worse than crimes against God?

 

Salam.

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Belief in God is arrogance? Sure it is.

Are crimes against humanity worse than crimes against God?

 

Salam.

 

Not believing in something for which there is no evidence is not a crime and harms no one, raping and killing causes immense suffering.

 

The question still stands. If not believing in Allah (not being Muslim) is the worst thing a human being can do. Are all non believers worse than rapists and killers who believe.

 

If we are worse than rapists and muderers how can you live in peace and harmony with us, how can you respect such evil people? How can you truly believe that there is no compulsion in religion if not bieng religious is worse than rape and murder.

Edited by umAhmad

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Belief in god is not arrogant and I didn't say it was.

 

To say you are 100% sure that you know his name, his will and that he aproves of you and only aproves of people who think like you is arrogant. It's way more arrogant than the atheist stance.

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Not believing in something for which there is no evidence is not a crime and harms no one, raping and killing causes immense suffering. Perspective dear boy, perspective.

 

If human beings were created for the sole purpose of worshipping God, how do murder and crimes against humanity take priority over disbelief? What you're saying makes no sense at all.

 

To say you are100 % sure that you know his name, his will and that he aproves of you and only aproves of people who think like you is arrogant.

 

You mean we should say "Oh, we don't know" purely for the sake of not appearing arrogant, even if it also makes no sense that God would create us and dump us on Earth to do as we wish?

 

Edit: I have to add that it is equally arrogant of someone to assume that it is impossible to know who God is, and what He created us for.

 

Salam.

Edited by umAhmad

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