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Yurt

Muhammad In The Bible

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Again, what muslims do not understand and so quickly jump to conclusion on is, that the Holy Spirit had never been "poured" our before. Ever. I challenge you to find an outpouring of the Spirit to so many people. A "comfortering" Spirit.

 

You need to read the texts before you conclude. If you read the texts, and I challenge this, for what can you conclude is false unless you read, for even Muhammad referred to these texts. You will see that the Comforter talked about by Jesus came shortly after, NOT over 600 years later. I have posted this before with not adequate explanation, but trust me, it is there.

 

I am still not convinced that Muhammad is in the Bible. Unless you have more, that is.

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Peace

 

Three distinct prophesies:

In the Bible we read of the test that the Jews applied to Jesus (pbuh) in order to ascertain his truthfulness. The Jews had a prophecy that required Elias to come before Jesus (pbuh):

 

 

"Elias verily cometh first"

 

Mark 9:12

 

 

(also John 3:28). They had not seen Elias yet so they doubted the claim of Jesus (pbuh). Jesus, however, responded to them that Elias had already come but that they did not recognize him. In Matthew we read:

 

 

"But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not.........Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist."

 

Matthew 17:12-13

 

 

John, however refutes the claims of Jesus (pbuh). This is one of the Christian's "dark sayings of Jesus" that their scholars have tried to reconcile for centuries. We will leave this matter for them to work out among themselves (This matter is resolved in the Gospel of Barnabas. Please see chapter 7 for more).

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Salam

 

In John we read

 

"And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No."

 

John 1:19-21

 

 

We notice that there are three distinct prophecies here: 1) Elias, 2) Jesus, 3) That prophet. The Jews were not waiting for two prophecies, but three. This can be further clarified by reading John:

 

"And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be:

 

a) not that Christ,

 

B) nor Elias,

 

c) neither that prophet?"

 

John 1:25

 

If "that prophet" were Jesus (pbuh) wouldn't the third question in both verses be redundant? Further, we must remember that "That prophet" can not apply to any prophet before the time of Jesus (pbuh) because at the time of Jesus (pbuh) the Jews were still waiting for all three. Notice how when we let the Bible speak for itself, without forcing the holy spirit or other supernatural meanings on it in the commentary, or forcing three questions to be only two, how clear these verses become. For much more evidence in this regard, please read chapter 7 regarding the Dead Sea Scroll prophesies of "two messiahs" and how the Jews who wrote the scrolls and who were waiting for the coming of Jesus (pbuh) clearly state in these scrolls that they were waiting for not one, but TWO messiahs, the first of which would be announced by an eschatological prophet.

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What do you say to or call a fellow muslim male when greeting him?  I believe I have heard:  "Brother"  Is this right?

 

 

.  You will see that the Comforter talked about by Jesus came shortly after, NOT over 600 years later. 

 

:D

 

You are looking at it from a human perspectiive! In terms of historical events, it is not a very long time! And as for the explaintion about the holy spirit and this verse i shall shortly come to you on that!

w/salaam

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:D

 

:D

 

“Nevertheless I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. (john 16:7)

I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.†(John 16:12-14)

 

Well my friend you should read it now, to the full. Firstly, the spirit has no gender, eight masculine pronouns! That surely means it is not a “ghostâ€! it is a man!

Then let us look at “it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.†That means the condition is that Jesus had to go away, for the “comforter†to come! And we know that the Holy Spirit was there before and at the time of Jesus! So if you try to understand then it is surely not the “Holy Spirit†being talked about! Logically, it has been proven, I think!

cont...

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:D

“I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:â€

 

Jesus says I have yet many things to say unto thee, but you cannot bear them now! That means you don’t have the capacity to bear them now! … He will guide you unto all truth! Now you tell, you claim that this prophecy refers to the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is will all the Churches, just give me one example that the Holy spirit has given to any church, not “many†as Jesus said but one! I can assure you there is none!

 

“He shall glorify me:†who other then Mohammad (pbuh)(non Christian) has glorified or for that matter recognised Jesus as a Holy man other then Mohammad (pbuh)? I say to you none! Read the Quran, and you’ll see that it talks of Jesus in more respectful way then the Bible itself! It glorifies that mighty messenger of Allah! Read it!

“for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speakâ€

We know that Mohammad (pbuh) was not learned, he spoke what he heard from the angle Gabriel!

I will give you more and more from the Bible, but you see if you are willing to learn, only then you can see, if you wish to argue then no amount of proof can convince you! But let us see what do you have to say about this!

 

And by the way if you can do go and listen to one of the greatest Muslim scholars on Bible! Ahmad Deedat! Listen to his debates, with Christians! Here is the link!

 

"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.aswatalislam(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/DisplayFilesP.aspx?TitleID=50016"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.aswatalislam(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/DisplayFilesP.aspx?TitleID=50016[/url]

 

w/salaam

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I guess we are going in circles. I have shown how brethren meant fellow Isrealites and no one has been able to contradict this. Further, I have shown how twice in the bible it clearly states that Jesus is the one whom Moses spoke of. The comforter is the Holy Spirit, it came very shortly after Jesus made this comment. Further, the comforter is defined as follows:

 

John 14:

 

16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

 

Muhammad is no longer with us.

 

John 14:26 “ But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.â€

 

This clearly shows the comforter is a "Spirit" not a man.

 

Acts 1:8

8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

 

Jesus is talking to His current disciples. How could they recieve the Holy Spirit if it came over 600 years later. Further, it talks about this Spirit being used so they could bear witness of Jesus.

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Assalamu Aleikum wa Rahmatullahee wa Barakatu

 

According to the New Testament, wasn't the Holy Spirit with Jesus aleihi salam all the time throughout his life. In Qur'an it is said "To Moses We gave the Scriptures and after him We sent other apostles. We gave Jesus the son of Mary veritable signs and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit. Will you then scorn each apostle whose message does not suit your fancies, charging some with imposture and slaying others?" (Suratul-Baqarah 87)

 

The Holy Spirit was which Jesus from day one. The Holy Spirit could be either an angel, or the injeel, or Iman (indestructable faith), or Wisdom (knowledge and good judgment). It could mean that Jesus was strengthened by the Holy Spirit of Truth. The Holy Spirit could mean that "Truth".

 

The Father = The Will of God

The Son = The Word of God

The Holy Spirit = The Wisdom of God

 

Islam means to submit to the Will of God by following the Word of God and by trusting in the Wisdom of God. :D  :D  :D

 

Grace and Peace,

 

Nice post. :D To Christians the Word of God "is" Jesus Christ, the Word become Flesh but we really dig the Bible too. :D

 

We are taught that "Faith in Jesus saves, faith in the Bible helps".

 

Peace 4 Real.

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Salaam,

 

Just like to point out that in the Islamic concept, 'Holy Spirit' is Gabriel (upon him be peace).

 

Peace

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Salaam,

 

Just like to point out that in the Islamic concept, 'Holy Spirit' is Gabriel (upon him be peace).

 

Peace

 

 

So if the Holy Spirit was called the comforter, how then can the comforter be Muhammad? Also, why is a Spirit a an angel?

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notice....its known that when a person does not want to believe something.. he/she keeps on going in circles trying to prove the fact wrong... its different than when a person is looking for an answer..and is willing to believe if they found the truth...

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Assalamu Aleikum wa Rahmatullahee wa Barakatu

 

 

The Prophet LIKE UNTO MOSES Cannot be a Jew

 

Well, is Muhammad (pbuh) the only prophet who is "Like unto Moses"? For example, what about Jesus (pbuh)? Well, we should then notice that Jesus (pbuh) was a Jew,

 

"Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou (Jesus), being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria?"

John 4:9

 

and the Bible specifically denies that this awaited prophet will be a Jew. We are told that in Deuteronomy:

 

"And there arose NOT a prophet since in israel LIKE unto Moses."

 

Deuteronomy 34:10

 

This awaited prophet, however, must be "LIKE unto thee (Moses)." So he will come from OUTSIDE of israel.

 

 

How would you interpret Deuteronomy 34:10?

 

 

Deuteronomy 34:9 Now Joshua son of Nun was filled with the spirit [c] of wisdom because Moses had laid his hands on him. So the israelites listened to him and did what the LORD had commanded Moses.

 

What does it mean according to your understanding, Yurt and Ignatius, that now Joshua Son of Nun (Yusha ben Nun aleihi salam) "was filled with the spirit of wisdom"?

 

Isn't is the spirit of prophethood?

 

 

Deuteronomy 34:10 Since then, no prophet has risen in israel like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face, 11 who did all those miraculous signs and wonders the LORD sent him to do in Egypt—to Pharaoh and to all his officials and to his whole land. 12 For no one has ever shown the mighty power or performed the awesome deeds that Moses did in the sight of all israel.

 

How do you (Yurt, Ignatius, Yank etc) interpret this? Is the prophet like unto Moses aleihi salam really one of the tribes of Isra'eel aleihi salam?

 

Salam

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Muhsinmuttagi,

 

Thank you for your replies. I posted a good response a few posts ago, check it out. It is where I claimed that no one has proven me wrong that brethren actually means someone from Isreal. I posted a pretty explanation of this a few posts ago too. For example, when Paul is talking to the Isrealis, he refers to them as "brethren." Also, there is no mention at all in the Bible of referring to Ishmael's tribes as "brethren." Everytime brethren is used in the Bible (except two instances when it refers to a close ally) it is talking about fellow Isrealites. So, I strongly believe that "like" unto to Moses must inherantly mean, a Jew. Muhammad was NOT a jew, therefore, how could he be "like" Moses in this regard.

 

The word like means:

 

Possessing the characteristics of; resembling closely; similar to:

 

1. In the typical manner of: It's not like you to take offense.

2. In the same way as: lived like royalty.

 

You will notice that the examples given in the dictionary mean, "in the same way." Muhammad could not have been like Moses, for he was not a jew.

 

As to the spirit poured out from Moses to Joshua. Yes. Now you are getting it. The Holy Spirit was always handed out to the "few" chosen people of God. After Christ left he poured out the Spirit upon all, so that they could call upon that power to give testimony about Jesus.

 

Excellent!

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Salam

 

 

NEW TOPIC: :D

 

BIBLE FORETELLS QUR'AN AND MUHAMMAD:

 

Foretells the story of the chapter of "Iqra"

"And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which [men] deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, [i pray thee]: and he saith, I cannot; for it [is] sealed: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, [i pray thee]: and he saith, I am not learned. Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near [me] with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people, [even] a marvelous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise [men] shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid. Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us? Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding? [is] it not yet a very little while, and Lebanon shall be turned into a fruitful field, and the fruitful field shall be esteemed as a forest? And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness."

Isaiah 29:11-18

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Salam

NEW TOPIC: :D

 

BIBLE FORETELLS QUR'AN AND MUHAMMAD:

 

Foretells the story of the chapter of "Iqra"

"And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which [men] deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, [i pray thee]: and he saith, I cannot; for it [is] sealed: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, [i pray thee]: and he saith, I am not learned. Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near [me] with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people, [even] a marvelous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise [men] shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid. Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us? Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding? [is] it not yet a very little while, and Lebanon shall be turned into a fruitful field, and the fruitful field shall be esteemed as a forest? And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness."

Isaiah 29:11-18

 

Well, if it is a new topic, then start one.

 

Also, why do you think the above foretells your claim? All you did was post some versus, which I will check after you post your reasons.

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Salam

 

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was illiterate. His entire life he never learned to read nor write. The exact circumstances of this first revelation were as follows: It was the habit of Muhammad (pbuh) to frequently remove himself from the midst of his fellow Arabs and their heathenistic actions and spend many days secluded in the cave of "Hiraa" in the mountains of Makkah where he would pray to God according to the religion of Abraham (pbuh). After many years of this, and having reached the age of forty (610AD), the angel Gabriel suddenly appeared before him and ordered him to "Iqra!" (read, recite, repeat, proclaim). Muhammad (pbuh), in his terror thought he was being asked to read, so he stammered: "I am unlettered." The angel Gabriel again ordered him to "Iqra!" Muhammad (pbuh) again replied: "I am unlettered." The angel Gabriel now took a firm hold of him and commanded him "Iqraa in the name of Allah who created!". Now Muhammad (pbuh) began to understand that he was not being asked to read, but to recite, to repeat. He began to repeat after him, and Gabriel revealed to him the first verses of the Qur'an, those at the beginning of the chapter of Al-Alak(96):

 

 

"Read(Iqraa): In the name of your Lord who created, Created man from a clot. Read(Iqraa): And your Lord is the Most Bounteous, Who teaches by the pen, Teaches man that which he knew not."

 

The noble Qur'an, Iqra(96):1-5

 

 

As mentioned above, the actual word angel Gabriel used to address Muhammad (pbuh) was the Arabic word "Iqra." It is derived from the Arabic root word "qara". However, if we were to go back to the original Hebrew form of the verses of Isaiah 29:11, we would find that the actual word which is translated into English as "Read this [i pray thee]" is the Hebrew word qara', {kaw-raw'}. Is it not an amazing coincidence that the Hebrew text used not only a word with the same meaning, but the exact same word itself ?

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Muhsinmugatti,

 

What does your post have to do with Muhammad in the Bible? Regardless of whether he could not read, he was not mentioned in the Bible. Btw, as to people who could not read back then, they had people with them who could. Yeah, they did. Notwithstanding that I think Muhammad could read, maybe not well, but he could read. He was, afterall, a child of a merchant family.

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Assalamu Aleikum wa Rahmatullahee wa Barakatu

 

Muhammad sallallahu aleihi wassallam who is your prophet grew up without father and mother. He was an orphan. He was illiterate.

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A rod out of the stem of Jesse

 

"And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;"

 

Isaiah 11:1-2

 

To understand this prophesy we need to study the verses carefully. These verses tell us that the rod (branch) which shall grow out of the stem (trunk) of "Jesse" shall be filled by God with wisdom, understanding, council, might, knowledge, and the fear of God. In other words, he shall be a statesman, a prophet and a judge.

 

 

The obvious question that springs to mind is: Who was "Jesse"? In the Encyclopedia Biblica we read that Jesse is a contraction of Ishmael, or:

 

 

"Jesse, for Ishmael… The changes which proper names undergo in the mouths of small children account for a large number of these particular abbreviations - who could guess, to take modern examples, that Bob and arose out of Robert and Richard? … such forms as in ai were particularly common in later times … and many more in the Talmud, which also exhibits various other kinds of abbreviation"

 

Now, the reason why these biblical scholars have said this may not be readily apparent to us simply by reading the English rendition of these two words, however, when these Christian scholars went back and looked at the original Hebrew words, that is when they realized it's true meaning. Although a complete understanding of why this is true would require a knowledge of the Hebrew language, still, it is possible at least phonetically to see this even in the English language. Let us have a look.

 

 

In Hebrew, the word Ishmael is written as Yishma`e'l. It is pronounced {yish-maw-ale'}.

 

 

Similarly, in Hebrew, the word Jesse is written as Yishay. It is pronounced {yee-shah'-ee}, or in Aramaic it is 'Iyshay and pronounced {ee-shah'-ee}.

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Assalamu Aleikum wa Rahmatullahee wa Barakatu

 

The only "branch" from the stem of Ishmael who was a statesman, a prophet and a judge was prophet Muhammad (pbuh). The reason many people interpret this verse to apply to Jesus (pbuh) is because he is claimed to be of the lineage of king David, and Jesse was the name of the father of king David. However, why would this prophesy tie the coming prophet to the father of David who was for all practical purposes a completely unknown figure in the Bible? It would be much more logical to follow the much more popular trend found elsewhere in the Bible of associating Jesus with king David himself who was both a king and a prophet and a much more popular figure in the Bible and much better known to anyone who reads it. In other words, what is so direly special about king David's father that this prophesy had to completely bypass the legendary prophet king David himself in order to apply itself to his unknown father? The answer is that it was not meant to apply to the father of king David but to a descendant of Ishmael the son of prophet Abraham.

 

It is further important to remember that insisting on tying prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) to a human lineage descendant from king David shall ultimately result in a complete nullification of the religion known today as "Christianity." This is because if Jesus is the descendant of king David then he has a human father and his father is not God.

 

Jesse = Ishma'eel :D

Edited by muhsinmuttaqi

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Muhsinmugatti,

 

What does your post have to do with Muhammad in the Bible?  Regardless of whether he could not read, he was not mentioned in the Bible.  Btw, as to people who could not read back then, they had people with them who could.  Yeah, they did.  Notwithstanding that I think Muhammad could read, maybe not well, but he could read.  He was, afterall, a child of a merchant family.

 

 

:D

 

The words that Mohammd (pbuh) used when the angel Gabreal said Iqra were "MA ANA BI QARI IN" which exactly mean i am not learned! The use of the words i am am unletter, might throw you off the track! just tell me who could this prophecy possibly reffer to? where else in the history of prophet did you find. Did that happen to the HOLY GHOST? It would be fun to see you refute this!

 

w/salaam

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