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fallow

Mods - Can We Get A Ruling On What Constitutes 'disrespect'?

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From some of the closed posts lately it seems obvious that many non-Muslims are confused about what constitutes 'disrespect'. Can we get an official IF definition to avoid futher misunderstandings?

 

Does not being believing that Islam is true constitute disrespect? (Surely not!)

 

Does disagreeing with Muslims who make statement which, to me, are untrue constitute disrespect?

 

Please help us out, here.

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Hi fallow, A moderator will probably give you a more detailed reply soon. I think as a support team member I can give you my input as to what is disrespect.

 

This is an Islamic forum, so disrespect could be any of the folowing:

 

__Degrading Allah

 

__Degrade Islam

 

__Calling Prophet Mohammad (Peace and Blessings of Allah be on him) names which are not appropriate

 

__Calling any of the other Prophets (Peace be upon them) with inappropriate names

 

__Showing disrespect towards any of the Prophets, making fun of them or their mission.

 

__Showing disrespect and making fun of the Quraan

 

__Calling Muslim as well as Non Muslim members names which are inappropriate.

 

__Arguing just for the sake of arguing, questioning the Moderators actions in public, you can always question them in the privacy of the PM.

 

__In other words Don't do unto others what you don't want them to do to you.

 

Not believing in Islam or disagreeing with the statements made by Muslims is not disrespectful as long as there is no name calling and the type of language used is appropriate.

 

Last but not least I would like to tell you that the Muslim members are also not allowed to be disrespectful to Non Muslim members, they are warned for unIslamic behaviour too, so please don't think that it is a one way thing.

 

Moderators, if I have said something that is not supposed to be here, then please just delete that part and inshaAllah inform me.

 

JazaakAllahu Khairan. umAhmad.

Edited by umAhmad

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In other words Don't do unto others what you don't want them to do to you.

 

Hmm, maybe this is the nub of the problem. I WANT people to question my beliefs, I WANT them to argue vigorously that I am wrong and they are right. I WANT them to point out that I have reached ioncorrect conclusions, if they think I have. I suggest that that is pretty much the attitude of anyone (western or otherwise) approaching a religion from a scientific perspective.

 

 

What do you mean by "degrading Allah"? I don't think Allah exists - is that degrading Allah? Because I don't think that Allah exists, I inevitably (there's just no other option) think that Mohammed was duped, deluded or lying. Is that disrespectful?

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Actually, there is one other possible explanation that a non-believer could ascribe to Mohammed's behaviour (or the behaviour of anyone else who claims to be in direct contact with a god, be it anone from Joseph Smith to George Bush) or - it may not in fact have been his behaviour: he might have been misrepresented by historians. I think that covers it (duped, deluded, untruthful or misrepresented) but if anyone thinks of any others, let me know.

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Hi fallow,

 

What do you mean by "degrading Allah"? I don't think Allah exists - is that degrading Allah? Because I don't think that Allah exists, I inevitably (there's just no other option) think that Mohammed was duped, deluded or lying. Is that disrespectful?

 

You think Allah does'nt exist, fine, I might not like it, but You have a right to your beliefs, as a believer I can explain to you with respect my beliefs, without sending you to Hell and all, and you should do the same, respect me for my beliefs.

 

Yes if you say those things about Prophet Mohammad Peace and blessings be upon him, then you are being disrespectful of my Prophet and in turn you are disrespectful to me too, because you know I love the Prophet, so what would be the purpose of saying those things, if not to aggrevate me.

 

I don't know about you, but normally if someone said bad things to you about your parents or your loved ones, how would you feel, bad and hurt.

 

I sincerely request you to take some time out and study a little about Islam from the right sources not what the main media portrays, and read a little about the prophet's life too, so that you know the right thing. It is easy to go with the flow and believe what is thrown around, but a wise person is one who finds out the right thing.

 

Look I am not here trying to convert you, but I immensely dislike when people just say whatever comes to their heads without thinking how it might hurt the others. It goes the same to anyone, like I said in my previous post, even Muslims have been banned and warned for saying inappropriate things to Non Muslims on this Forum, so offcourse in Non Muslims say inappropriate things about Allah or quran or the Prophet, then the action taken would be more severe, would'nt it, seeing that this is an IslamIC FORUM. Our Rules here are much more lenient and understanding than most Forums.

 

Take care, umAhmad.

Edited by umAhmad

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Thanks for creating this topic, fallow.

umAhmed, your suggestions seem perfectly reasonable.

 

I have not only been suspended, and warned (twice), but have had one of my topics closed. I asked dot to explain what I've done exactly, and all he said was (to quote him):

 

"don't try or think in the line of proving Islam wrong".

 

The ironic thing is, he later contradicts himself in one of my topics (to quote him again):

 

"here we welcome all questions".

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Hi Rationalist, brother dot has said the same thing that I have said, but in a more straight forward way.

 

Br. dot said

"don't try or think in the line of proving Islam wrong".

 

"here we welcome all questions".

 

 

I said

Degrade Islam

 

It means the same, this is an Islamic Forum, we welcome you and welcome your questions, and will answer or try to get answers. But if someone tries to prove Islam is wrong on the forum, then after trying to explain a few times, the best choice the Administrator or the Moderator is left with is to bann or warn that member. IS THAT NOT FAIR???

 

Regards, umAhmad.

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Peace upon those who follow the guidance

Thanks sister umAhmad for your detailed points.

Our forum rules are pretty easy to understand, Yet, here is what non-Muslims should know regarding their rights in this forum:

  • the golden rule is: ask but do not attack.
  • we accept all questions regarding Islam. Yet, you are not allowed to tell us what Islam is, or make statements about our religion.
  • You are free to mention your disbelief, but relate to yourself only, do not put what you think in person as if it is a fact. For example, its ok to say: "I think there is no god", but you're absolutely not allowed to say it in a way that suggests that it is a fact, like saying: "there is no god".
  • we expect you to respect our belief system. You're free to disagree with everything we believe in, but disagreeing is one thing, and showing disrespect is another. You cannot state something like: "I do not respect your religion". Respect should be the basis of any sincere relationship or contact between civilized humans.
  • if you come to this forum with a preset agenda of attacking points against Islam, you will soon be banned. Its pretty easy to spot such minds.
  • If you are sincere in looking for the truth, asking questions is your best approach. Ask one question per topic to make it easy for us to answer you.
  • Do not start your activity here with pre-assumptions. The web is full of missionary sites that dedicate their time to use every method to attack Islam, including quoting out of context, or parts of a verse to give the wrong meaning, purposely translate words in a wrong way to give reverse meanings, and many other dishonest tactics. We ask that you do not fall for such lies. Come with a clear mind, and we will help you reach the truth with open arms.

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Yes if you say those things about Prophet Mohammad Peace and blessings be upon him, then you are being disrespectful of my Prophet and in turn you are disrespectful to me too, because you know I love the Prophet, so what would be the purpose of saying those things, if not to aggrevate me.

 

If I don't believe in the Mormon god it inevitably follows that I believe that Jospeh Smith was duped, deluded, lying or misrepresented. There's just no other way to think of Joseph Smith. I literally cannot disbelieve in the Mormon god but think that Joseph Smith was a prophet of the Mormon god. That would be literally nonsense. It isn't a matter of insulting Joseph Smith, it just inevitably follows from not believing in his god.

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And by the way - if (as I believe) Allah does not exist, that makes Mohammed a much greater human in my eyes. If he was able to do the immense political, philosophical and literary work he accomplished, he was one of the great geniuses we (humanity) have produced.

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Bugger - left out the vital phrase:

 

If he was able to do the immense political, philosophical and literary work he accomplished without supernatural assistance, he was one of the great geniuses we (humanity) have produced.

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Hi fallow, You are not the first one to think that Muhammad PBUH. is one of the greatest human being. I don't know if you read the book The 100: A Ranking Of The Most Influential Persons In History: by Michael H. Hart. He ranked Muhammad PBUH as #1 even before Jesus, and was in trouble for doing so, and there are many others who say so, I believe in it too, no questions asked, and every other Muslim believes it too.

 

BUT

 

 

For us Muslims Allah COMES FIRST. Our Belief is first and formost in THERE IS NO ONE WORTHY OF WORSHIP EXEPT Allah then comes the second part AND MUHAMMAD IS HIS PROPHET AND MESSENGER.

 

It is our belief in Allah that makes us what we are, THAT IS MUSLIMS. There are many great men in the World some Muslims some not, what makes Muhammad Peace be upon him is that Allah made him a Prophet, and Allah told us through the Quraan to follow in the Prophet's footsteps, that's the reason Prophet Muhammad holds such a high status in the eyes of the Muslims, otherwise he would be like any other great man, period.

 

I hope you understand what I am saying, to me it seems like I am probably confusing you by going in circles, but that's not my intention, sorry if am not conveying my message properly.

 

In simple words, if I did not believe in the Almighty Allah, then the rest would make no difference.

 

Take care, regards, umAhmad.

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Yes, I understand that your entire worldview derives from a belief in Allah. However, the worldview of non-Muslims doesn't (obviously). Some things inevitably follow from not believing in Allah. If there is no Allah, then Mohammed cannot have been the prophet of Allah. There's no way around that. It isn't disrespect, it's just how things are.

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Yes, I understand that your entire worldview derives from a belief in Allah. However, the worldview of non-Muslims doesn't (obviously). Some things inevitably follow from not believing in Allah. If there is no Allah, then Mohammed cannot have been the prophet of Allah. There's no way around that. It isn't disrespect, it's just how things are.

 

fallow, I think the rules of forum discussion have been drawn out very clearly by the forum admin and sister umahmad. At the end of the day, civil discussions and graciousness in our little cyberspace here is what is most important to us, and this is what we aim to uphold always. From the mods point of view, this is an utmost priority, more so than allowing free discussions to be carried out on its own.

 

So whatever you wish to discuss, please keep in mind what we wish to uphold; some civility in the forum.

 

Let's apply this to what you've said above. You mention that certain views derive from disbelief in Allah, and you say this is not disrespect, it is just an opinion.

We can hear what you have to say about why you don't believe in Allah and His commands. Most of the time, Muslims will engage in conversation with you. However, what you say because of disbelieving in Allah, such as what you say about Allah and His Prophets, can lead to misunderstandings and hurt feelings of the Muslims, because this resides in our core beliefs.

 

I don't see how calling our Prophet a liar is not an insult. Muslims do not believe in other faiths, but we do not make such statements about their religious figures and personalities. In return, we would expect the same from the non-Muslims as it is only fair, and it upholds civility in the forum. The key issue for you would be, how to phrase your beliefs and viewpoints without insulting ours. I would also suggest in your example, to discuss why you don't believe in Islam at first (most probably in a new thread so that replies can addresss your points directly), rather than making conclusions about what Islam is about.

 

With regards,

freedslave

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I'm a bit bemused at how easily hurt Muslims are (my Christian friends all loved 'The Life of Brian'; my Jewish friends are always parodying their culture(s) - Mel Brooks' musical film/play 'The Producers', which contains the song 'Springtime for Hitler & Germany", is a sublime example of turning horror into life-affirming comedy) but I'll attempt to treat you with kid gloves.

 

Unfortunately I'm not going to put my brain to sleep while I do it. I'm not saying this to insult, I am genuinely curious as to how there is an alternative to thinking that (for example) Joseph Smith was duped, deluded, lying or misrepresented if I don't happen to believe that the Mormon god exists.

 

What do YOU think about Joseph Smith's claim to have been told by god to start a new religion? Obviously you think he was duped, deluded, lying or misrepresented. Do you mean that as an insult? I doubt it. It's the only way you CAN think of Joseph Smith if you don't believe in the Mormon god.

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fallow, think of Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, as you will (though insha'Allah you eventually think differently of him). What the brothers are saying is not to post these opinions here, not on this forum, because yes, to us they are insulting. What would you gain by posting them anyway? The whole point of this forum is to learn and to understand- you'll hardly achieve that by saying bad things about our Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him.

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:sl:

 

I think we should be grateful for being given this kind of friendly atmosphere.:no: we have an excellent community here.

A lot of hard work and dedication goes into making this forum what it is.So the least we could do is follow the rules made right?

There for our own benefit.

 

:j: bro dot for your efforts into making this IF. :D

 

:sl:

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What the brothers are saying is not to post these opinions here, not on this forum, because yes, to us they are insulting. What would you gain by posting them anyway? The whole point of this forum is to learn and to understand- you'll hardly achieve that by saying bad things about our Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him.

 

Aaaaargh! Does no-one read my posts? I have not said "bad things" about Mohammed. I just don't believe that Allah exists, and certain things are unavoidable consequences of that. It is NOT an insult (that is, a deliberate attempt to belittle or denigrate) to Joseph Smith if a non-Mormon considers that he must have been duped, deluded, lying or misrepresented. There is literally no other way that a non-Mormon can consider him. To pretend otherwise would be dishonest.

 

If you agree with me that a non-Mormon has no choice - it isn't a matter of deciding to think of Joseph Smith that way, it's the unavoidable consequence of not being a Mormon - but to think of Joseph Smith as being duped, deluded, lying or misrepresented, what possible difference would it make whether or not I said it? Anyone with half a brain realises that a non-believer does not, by definition, believe in the divinity, so how can you have an honset discussion if you pretend otherwise?

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Can we get an official IF definition to avoid futher misunderstandings?

 

Dear member

 

The purpose of this thread is now fulfilled.

Topic closed

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