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Atheists: What Does It Take For You To Believe?

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Why can't the universe have existed forever? The analogy isn't that humans appear and disappear, it's that matter and energy, humans) are constantly being shaped and reshaped, apparently endlessly.

YES but we have a begining. no? matter comes from somwhere energy comes from somewhere,

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what existence?

Everything.

 

what things and how do you arrive at that conclusion?

The universe is everything that exists.

 

where is the end of space?

Space is just empty regions in the universe.

 

space had to come from somewhere the universe had to come from somewhere it all had a begining.

Evidence?

 

everything in our life shows that everything has a begining if we can see it it has a begining.

But everything as a whole, does not have a beginning. This is not even addressing any of the points that I made.

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Atheists , the merry go round ride is sure something keep up the good work :sl:

 

its either you try your best to pollute our heads with such rubbish or your trying your best to understand what is Islam.

 

btw if we got crazy with such merry go round ideas we will still crawl to the Masjid and pray.

 

good luck with your mission of failure.

 

and inshallah soon you see the truth.

 

soon i will explain to you the sickness of faith and the deadheart the cold feelings, you might have gone beyond the thinkings that you have infected yourself with such sickness

 

not all sickness is known. some are something soo strange that this world cant cure it but only the source that has the cure.

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Atheists , the merry go round ride is sure something keep up the good work wink.gif

Is that an attempt at humour?

 

its either you try your best to pollute our heads with such rubbish or your trying your best to understand what is Islam.

What 'rubbish'? This is a thread started for Atheists. It was Muslims who initiated this discussion in the arguably correct forum. What precisely are you complaining about?

 

btw if we got crazy with such merry go round ideas we will still crawl to the Masjid and pray.

I don't even know what this means.

 

good luck with your mission of failure.

I have no mission and there is no mission amongst Atheist.s

 

and inshallah soon you see the truth.

Perhaps, perhaps not.

 

soon i will explain to you the sickness of faith and the deadheart the cold feelings, you might have gone beyond the thinkings that you have infected yourself with such sickness

What are you talking about? Certainly nothing comprehendable.

 

not all sickness is known. some are something soo strange that this world cant cure it but only the source that has the cure.

Here's some advice. When conversing with other faiths and non-faiths alike, it is advisable to not:

 

1. Be demeaning.

2. Be self-righteous

3. Refer to the beliefs or world view of the people in question as a 'sickness'

4. Dehumanise the individual

 

All of the above do nothing to actually improve the other person's view of Islam. It causes divide, anger and it is a disserve to Islam and yourself to treat people of other beliefs with contempt. Good day.

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Atheists , the merry go round ride is sure something keep up the good work :sl:

 

its either you try your best to pollute our heads with such rubbish or your trying your best to understand what is Islam.

 

btw if we got crazy with such merry go round ideas we will still crawl to the Masjid and pray.

 

good luck with your mission of failure.

 

and inshallah soon you see the truth.

 

soon i will explain to you the sickness of faith and the deadheart the cold feelings, you might have gone beyond the thinkings that you have infected yourself with such sickness

 

not all sickness is known. some are something soo strange that this world cant cure it but only the source that has the cure.

 

 

You are not a very good diplomat and you obviously have a rather high opinion of yourself. Try having a bit of respect please.

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Everything.

The universe is everything that exists.

Space is just empty regions in the universe.

Evidence?

But everything as a whole, does not have a beginning. This is not even addressing any of the points that I made.

 

 

how do you know skavau that space is just empty regions in the universe. have you travelled past the hubble telescope?

and if everything as a whole does not have a begining I agree. You are saying that it formed in pieces and became a whole in the end. WHAT DID IT FORM FROM???

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how do you know skavau that space is just empty regions in the universe. have you travelled past the hubble telescope?

Empty regions of the universe is the definition of space.

 

and if everything as a whole does not have a begining I agree. You are saying that it formed in pieces and became a whole in the end. WHAT DID IT FORM FROM???

What on earth are you talking about? Certainly nothing I said or believe.

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Explain how? 3 reinforces point 2 by concluding that if nothing is arbitrary and in the causal chain (as per 2), then everything must by consequence have a cause. If everything has a cause then there can be no beginning nor end to the causal chain. To assert any break in the causal chain for anything would be to defy the logic presented in 2.

To explain 2 better: Something cannot come from nothing does not entail the deduction everything has a cause , it only necessitate the existence of something eternal as it’s in 8 , so 3 is an assumption not a deduction from 2, an infinite regression is another assumption, and this will explain to you the contradictions in 4 and 8 .

 

Of course, the argument assumes the universe is agreed to exist. Do you dispute this?

 

6 was:

The only 'existence' we know is the Universe around us as demonstrated in (1). It is entirely observable and we constantly interact with it.

So the argument has nothing to with the agreement on the existence of the universe, the problem is that you are making an assumption about knowledge which has nothing to do with 1, as for the term observably which you are using makes your argument altogether unsound, also the justification you gave at the end of 6 is circular logic.

 

Explain
.

Google the problem of induction .

 

How come?

Because as shown you are making too much assumptions , false inferences and contradictions .

 

Finally concerning 5 it’s am empty statement , existence is only the sum of what exists .

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twswords, I'm not sure what you're getting at when you say that we can't see to the end of the universe - what are you suggesting is there? (Note that by definition 'the universe' is everything, so whatever is there will still be part of the universe).

 

And the proofs from Muslims that Dot invited aren't exactly coming thick and fast, are they? So far we've had the Argument from Creation and a bit of spiritual fluff.

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Causality

 

(X has property Y) & (X exists) => (It might be possible for Z to have property Y)

 

Thus, if a theist can claim that God is eternal, and had no beginning, then it is perfectly reasonable for me to claim that the point of the Big Bang is eternal, and had no beginning. (Whether I believe that to be the case or not, is irrelevent).

 

And so, your arguments of causality are completely invalid.

 

 

 

Evolution

 

There is a reason why practically all leading scientists accept evolution as fact, and that all leading Universities teach it as fact. I need not spell it out.

 

Ask a Cosmologist what happened within the first dozen Planck seconds of the Big Bang, and he will not be able to answer your question. But you still accept the Big Bang.

 

An Evolutionary Biologist cannot answer every question you have regarding Evolution. But that certainly does not negate the evidence that we've collected, and the knowledge that we do have of the subject.

 

You can ask me about the origin of life, and I will ask you about the origin of the countless fossils we've collected.

You can ask me about the origin of Phyla, and I will ask you why we have vestigial organs.

You can ask me about the relationship between DNA and Phenotype, and I will ask you to explain the geographic distribution of related species.

You can ask me about the origin of Language, and I'll ask you why, fundamental to all living organisms, is an incredibly inefficient system, which is prone to error (I speak of DNA).

You can ask me about the cause of Mass Extinctions, and I will ask you to explain the affects of a Corpus callosotomy.

And so on.

 

The fact is, "God" cannot answer any of these 10 questions, and yet Evolution can answer 5 (and is well on the way to answering the 5). Kick and scream all you want.

 

 

 

Order in the Universe

 

There is so much order in the universe, and there are many incredibly complex systems within it (we are examples).

How could this not have a creator?

 

Well, this question is just a different form of Paley's Argument - something which has been disregarded since the time of Darwin. The fact that Evolution presents a beautiful, elegant, and accurate explanation for the origin of life (one backed by evidence, might I add), shows that we don't necessarily need a creator to explain everything.

(In fact, the Mathematical subject of Chaos Theory is effectively the study of how complex behaviour arises through very simple mechanisms).

 

 

 

The Qur'an

 

How do you explain the Qur'an?

 

Well, I've read the Qur'an - and I find it about as impressive as The Bible.

In fact, there are elements that the Bible have, that the Qur'an does not.

 

 

 

What happens when you die?

 

"What is North of the North pole?"

 

I will become whatever I was before I was born.

 

 

 

Acknowledging the above, where is the need for a God?

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twswords, I'm not sure what you're getting at when you say that we can't see to the end of the universe - what are you suggesting is there? (Note that by definition 'the universe' is everything, so whatever is there will still be part of the universe).

 

And the proofs from Muslims that Dot invited aren't exactly coming thick and fast, are they? So far we've had the Argument from Creation and a bit of spiritual fluff.

 

what im suggesting is that if youve never traveled space you canot say that it is endless.All of your theories about space being endless is false because noone has traveled there to really see if that is true and yes its possible that it can be an end. Your asking me that like you are certain that it doesent have an end, and you have no proof. How can you dispute about GOD??

 

 

Oh and what proofs from MUSLIMS that dot invited .What is this about maybe i could offer something

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what im suggesting is that if youve never traveled space you canot say that it is endless.All of your theories about space being endless is false because noone has traveled there to really see if that is true and yes its possible that it can be an end.

 

What do you mean 'end'? i'd be happy to accept that it could have an end - but what happens when you go past the end? This doesn't really have anything to do with the existence or non-existence of god/s, though.

 

Oh and what proofs from MUSLIMS that dot invited .What is this about maybe i could offer something

 

*sigh* read the first post in this thread. This is supposed to be a thread where believers give proofs of god to convince non-believers.

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Causality

 

(X has property Y) & (X exists) => (It might be possible for Z to have property Y)

 

false conclusion .

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information from existence of God

 

--------------------

 

THE EXPANSION OF THE UNIVERSE

In 1929, the American astronomer Edwin Hubble, working at the California Mount Wilson observatory, made one of the most important discoveries in the history of astronomy. Observing a number of stars through his huge telescope, he discovered that their light was shifted towards the red end of the spectrum and, crucially, that this shift was directly related to the distance of the stars from earth. This discovery had an electrifying effect in the world of science, because according to the recognized rules of physics, the spectra of light beams travelling towards the point of observation tend towards violet while the spectra of light beams moving away from the point of observation tend towards red. During Hubble’s observations, the light from stars was discovered to tend towards red. This meant that they were constantly moving away from us.

Before long, Hubble made another important discovery; The stars weren't just racing away from Earth; they were racing away from each other as well. The only conclusion that could be derived from a universe where everything moves away from everything else is that the universe constantly "expands".

To better understand, the universe can be thought of as the surface of a balloon being blown up. Just as the points on the surface of a balloon move apart from each other as the balloon is inflated, so do the objects in space move apart from each other as the universe keeps expanding.

In fact, this had been theoretically discovered even earlier. Albert Einstein, who is considered the greatest scientist of the century, had concluded after the calculations he made in theoretical physics that the universe could not be static. However, he had laid his discovery to rest simply not to conflict with the widely recognised static universe model of his time. Later on, Einstein was to identify his act as “the greatest mistake of his careerâ€. Subsequently, it became definite by Hubble’s observations, that the universe expands.

What importance, then, did the fact that the universe expands have on the existence of the universe?

The expansion of the universe implied that if it could travel backwards in time, the universe would prove to have originated from a single point. The calculations showed that this “single point†that harboured all the matter of the universe should have “zero volume†and “infinite densityâ€. The universe had come about by the explosion of this single point with zero volume. This great explosion that marked the beginning of the universe was named the “Big Bang†and the theory started to be so called.

It has to be stated that “zero volume†is a theoretical expression used for descriptive purposes. Science can define the concept of "nothingness", which is beyond the limits of human comprehension, only by expressing it as “a point with zero volumeâ€. In truth, “a point with no volume†means “nothingnessâ€. The universe has come into being from nothingness. In other words, it was created.

The Big Bang theory showed that in the beginning all the objects in the universe were of one piece and then were parted. This fact, which was revealed by the Big Bang theory was stated in the Qur’an 14 centuries ago, when people had a very limited knowledge about the universe:

 

Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before We clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe? (The Qur’an, 21:30)

 

As stated in the verse, everything, even the “heavens and the earth†that were not yet created, were created with a Big Bang out of a single point, and began shaping the present universe by being parted from each other.

When we compare the statements in the verse with the Big Bang theory, we see that they fully agree with each other. However, the Big Bang was introduced as a scientific theory only in the 20th century.

The expansion of the universe is one of the most important pieces of evidence that the universe was created out of nothing. Although this fact was not discovered by science until the 20th century, God has informed us of this reality in the Qur’an revealed 1,400 years ago:

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false conclusion .

 

I'm quite sure it's not. Feel free to elaborate though.

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vishah, 21:30 can be interpreted in numerous different ways - in fact, it was not interpreted the way it is today, until after scientists (working hard, and studying the facts) showed undeniably that the universe started from a single point. You Muslims then reinterpreted your text to mould it around the facts [and tried to take credit for it].

 

 

In fact, if God wanted to reveal something nobody could know at the time, why didn't he just state the Schrodinger equation? Or Maxwell's equations? Or E=mc^2? (Etc)

 

Rather than these vague (and often inaccurate) descriptions, that can be interpreted in many different ways.

 

One possible explanation for this, is that the Qur'an is not divine. (What alternative explanation do you present?)

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Causality

 

(X has property Y) & (X exists) => (It might be possible for Z to have property Y)

 

false conclusion .

 

The premise implies that it's possible for something to have the property Y.

So if you randomly select something, then there's no information that suggests it's impossible for that something to also have property Y.

However, that does not mean that it's possible for this something to have said property. So the conclusion is, based purely on the information given in the premise, that it might be possible for something (Z in this case) to have property Y.

 

 

More accurately (and pedantically):

 

(X has property Y) & (X exists) & (Z exists) =/=> ¬(it is possible for Z to have property Y)

 

(I assume you're familiar with the basics of Propositional calculus).

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To explain 2 better: Something cannot come from nothing does not entail the deduction everything has a cause , it only necessitate the existence of something eternal

Absolutely not. The necessitation of something eternal as you just say would be a cause for everything in itself. If something cannot come from nothing, then it must come from something. Something must prompt something else. Cause must prompt an effect. That is the progression in thought made there.

 

1. The Universe observably exists.

2. Ex nihilo, nihil fit (Something cannot come from nothing. Nothing by definition simply does not

exist and has no property of establishing something that does. A Non-Existence Y cannot achieve a coherent way of ending up to an existent Z)

3. Everything therefore must have its own cause. This includes the Earth, the Solar System and ultimately the Universe.

4. This logically leads to an infinite regression as to assert an uncaused cause negates principle (2) and principle (3).

 

So the argument has nothing to with the agreement on the existence of the universe, the problem is that you are making an assumption about knowledge which has nothing to do with 1, as for the term observably which you are using makes your argument altogether unsound, also the justification you gave at the end of 6 is circular logic.

Yes. Fair enough. Although there is was no attempt at justifying the existence of the universe with 6, it was simply to bring back attention to what I was arguing for eternity.

 

Google the problem of induction .

Sorry, but this is your complaint. Not mine. I am not going to do your work for you.

 

I understand your criticism of it including assertions though, so I am going to review it and make some changes.

Edited by Skavau

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You all seem to have answered Dot's question, "What does it take for you to believe?" You all seem to want the same thing: tangible proof. If you saw God, for example, you would have all the proof you need. However if something like that were to happen then there is absolutely no need for us to live.

I do not expect nor demand proof, merely good evidence.

 

However our mind is limited. As for what we are able to understand - like the process of seeing or hearing as visha pointed out, and the complexities of the universe and all that is in it, or the fact that if all mankind with all our resources teamed together to create a single flower petal, we would not be able to - it is enough. You ask for evidence but that IS the evidence.

How is the complexity of existence evidence for God?

 

How is the the inability of mankind to do some things evidence for God?

 

Yet it is not enough for you; therefore you are simply being arrogant. For you want to see God. Anything else He gives you is not enough.

No. The above reasons are just simply not good evidence or reason to suppose a God.They might be convincing to you, but they are not convincing to most Atheists.

 

Is all of that not what you are saying? You are not alone; many came before you and said the same thing. Many wanted miracles. Many wanted to see God. But they do not want to believe, even after being given every kind of sign in the Qur'aan, and otherwise in the universe.

Such as?

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false conclusion .

The premise implies that it's possible for something to have the property Y.

So if you randomly select something, then there's no information that suggests it's impossible for that something to also have property Y.

However, that does not mean that it's possible for this something to have said property. So the conclusion is, based purely on the information given in the premise, that it might be possible for something (Z in this case) to have property Y.

More accurately (and pedantically):

 

(X has property Y) & (X exists) & (Z exists) =/=> ¬(it is possible for Z to have property Y)

 

(I assume you're familiar with the basics of Propositional calculus).

 

You acknowledged that you erred in your reasoning and tried to conceal this in your second line , randomly selecting or not, your deduction is not valid, you are making a generalization which by providing a counterexample fails miserably so your generalization is false, anyway each concept is complete, the new tournure that you made does not change anything, finally logic is not only about concatenating . (I assume that you are familiar with structure)

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Absolutely not. The necessitation of something eternal as you just say would be a cause for everything in itself. If something cannot come from nothing, then it must come from something. Something must prompt something else. Cause must prompt an effect. That is the progression in thought made there.

 

1. The Universe observably exists.

2. Ex nihilo, nihil fit (Something cannot come from nothing. Nothing by definition simply does not

exist and has no property of establishing something that does. A Non-Existence Y cannot achieve a coherent way of ending up to an existent Z)

3. Everything therefore must have its own cause. This includes the Earth, the Solar System and ultimately the Universe.

4. This logically leads to an infinite regression as to assert an uncaused cause negates principle (2) and principle (3).

Yes. Fair enough. Although there is was no attempt at justifying the existence of the universe with 6, it was simply to bring back attention to what I was arguing for eternity.

Sorry, but this is your complaint. Not mine. I am not going to do your work for you.

 

I understand your criticism of it including assertions though, so I am going to review it and make some changes.

 

Fair enough , I will be waiting for the new one , post #47 and #58 still address your post #68

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IF Allah were to reveal himself to these guys they will still disbelieve. you guys have been given proof after proof but you choose to deny. It doesnt matter what we say you have proven yourself to rebel against any thing. what i dont understand is why you guys do not stand on your own why not make up your own belief. Are you guys such losers that you have to look at a theist study very little of their way of life then turn around and say hey im an atheist. Its like you want the attention you guys are like babies sucking on the thiest tit . YOU athiest got your birth from us the thiest and you reject your own birth. Admit it ,if it wasnt for theist there would be no such thing as an athiest.

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IF Allah were to reveal himself to these guys they will still disbelieve.

That depends on how Allah revealed himself. If it was sufficiently convincing enough for me to deduce that it was Allah, I would believe.

 

you guys have been given proof after proof but you choose to deny.

False. We have been given what some Muslims seem to think is proof (nothing is proof of anything, only evidence is reasonable). We reject what some Muslims seem to think is proof on the basis that we have rational objections to the 'proof' offered.

 

It doesnt matter what we say you have proven yourself to rebel against any thing.

You cannot discern a rebellious mentality for dissent against a metaphysical assertion. You are showing much projection.

 

what i dont understand is why you guys do not stand on your own why not make up your own belief.

Do you understand the very nature of belief or disbelief? I cannot simply make up a set of beliefs on reality if I do not actually believe them. I am an Atheist because I do not believe in God. It has nothing to do with being rebellious or denying anything.

 

 

Are you guys such losers that you have to look at a theist study very little of their way of life then turn around and say hey im an atheist.

Are you such a judgmental, self-righteous, demeaning, anti-intellectual, misrepresenting bigot that you have to presume an individuals basis for belief or disbelief without even asking them? Are you such a one-dimensional, projecting and arrogant character that you presume to even know why we disbelieve? I have never been a Theist, I have never done what you say I have done above and I detest your repetitive insinuation that I have done such.

 

Your accusations are slanderous and bigoted and do a great disservice not just to your own credibility but to the credibility of Islam and all good Muslims out there.

 

Its like you want the attention you guys are like babies sucking on the thiest tit .

This thread was started by a theist by the way, seeking Atheists opinions. We responded. Your complaint is what?

 

 

YOU athiest got your birth from us the thiest and you reject your own birth. Admit it ,if it wasnt for theist there would be no such thing as an athiest.

If there were no Theists, then there would simply be no importance placed upon being an Atheist.

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that depends on how Allah revealed himself. If it was sufficiently convincing enough for me to deduce that it was Allah, I would believe.

 

Allah reveals Himself through his creation. Where did your knowlede come from? Everybody has been taught their knowledge from somewhere. By studing the earth we arrive at our knowledge. We say that the beginning of knowledge starts with Allah who made the earth and evolved it. What im saying to you is that your own knowledge of being an athiest is out of the womb of a thiest. Im not saying that you where a thiest no,but in order for you to reject Allah you had to have some knowledge of Allah. Maybe it was not enough knowledge for you but if you study the QURAN with a rational mind you will gain more knowledge of Allah.

 

 

If there were no Theists, then there would simply be no importance placed upon being an Atheist

 

you finaly get it Allah U AKBAR

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Sorry for interrupting. But I am wondering if the atheists believe that aliens exist?

 

Wassalam,

Y

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