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Uzair Suhail

Did We Really Evolve?!

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There is alot of evidence to suggest we DID evolve from chimpanzees, and share parts of our brain with the PIGEON?!

But the issue i have stumbled across as a muslim and a teenager, my mind wonders why we could not have evolved from, any of Allahs creatures, but why are we forced to belive that Adam and Eve were the first to be created, i do not wish to cause controversy, but what evidence is there in this world that suggests we did come from Adam and Eve??

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PropellerAds

:sl:

 

No, we didn't.

 

Did you know that 75% of DNA found in worms matches that of humans?

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Salamz My Homo-Sapian Comrades

 

 

:sl:

 

No, we didn't.

 

Did you know that 75% of DNA found in worms matches that of humans?

 

Based on the same shakey DNA evidence you mention, we maybe 75% worm but also like 95% Monkey.

And..As always I have proof. Let's compare the finest human spiceament ( yes by that I mean G.W. Bush)

to one of our close primate ancenstors.

 

 

Scroll below

 

 

 

 

 

######you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_i14.tinypic(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/6wnilb5.jpg[/img]

Edited by llogical

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Salamz My Homo-Sapian Comrades

 

Based on the same shakey DNA evidence you mention, we maybe 75% worm but also like 95% Monkey.

And..As always I have proof. Let's compare the finest human spiceament ( yes by that I mean G.W. Bush)

to one of our close primate ancenstors.

 

Salaam

Hey we also share 97% of our DNA that's two more than a monkey, with mice. However that's Allah's creation so just focus on your self never mind about other creatures.

Edited by (nawal)

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Salamz

Hey we also share 97% of our DNA that's two more than a monkey, with mice. However that's Allah's creation so just focus on your self never mind about other creatures.

WHAT!!! rats are also our borthers and sisters :no:

First thing Tomorrow I will single out and take care of all exterminators, I can no longer stand watch my siblings being killed by humans :sl:

 

Im all pro science but but evolutionary data keeps changing so I don't know if we'll ever find out the difinitive truth in our life time.

According to my a fortune teller my great great grandson will use time machine to come back and unravel the mystery to m ein year 2010, ill be sure to make a thread then and let u guys in :sl:

peace

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Based on the same shakey DNA evidence you mention, we maybe 75% worm but also like 95% Monkey.

And..As always I have proof. Let's compare the finest human spiceament ( yes by that I mean G.W. Bush)

to one of our close primate ancenstors.

Scroll below

######you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_i14.tinypic(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/6wnilb5.jpg[/img]

 

These images are very convincing I must admit.

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What you learn in school science is absolutely correct. Natural selection is a proven fact, and it's quite hard to believe it wasn't discovered as soon as genetics were. It's quite reasonable to see that if someones genetic attributes does not allow them to live in a certain part of the world, then they will die, and they will produce no offspring to carry on their genetic legacy - a gradual process to perfection. There is no clash between Science and Allah (I won't say religion).

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There is too much evidence to convincingly deny the Theory of Evolution.

 

However, God is very clear in the Qur'an that he created Adam from clay, and then from Adam, he created his mate. Then after disobeying God, He sent Adam and Eve down to earth, where we would have provision, multiply and be returned to God on the Day of Judgement. This is a story that is repeated at least a few times in the Qur'an. This is not allegorical...it is very definitive.

 

So how do you reconcile creation vs. evolution?

 

I've thought about this long and hard. I'm convinced that everything on this planet evolved...except Man! Man did not evolve, he was sent down by God to be the caretaker of this planet. After man was sent down, the evolutionary forces - that God created in the first place - then made their effects on mankind. We therefore evolved into different races; oriental, black, caucasean, native American, etc., as each community adapted to its environment. Note, we are all still the same species, but just different races. We have essentially stopped evolving, because we no longer adapt to the environment but rather we adapt the environment to us. We no longer pass on genes at different rates of reproduction - which is the basis of evolutionary theory, because most people, regardless of their disadvantage, still reproduce their genes.

 

Have you ever heard of the 'Missing Link' and what hominids are? Hominids are primates that stand up on two feet and are thought to be man's ancestors. Anthropologists cannot find any link in the line of hominid descendants that lead to Homo Sapiens. By the way, Chimpanzees are not man's ancestors, admitted even by evolutionists. Chimpanzees and Hominids share a common ancestor, but they broke off into different branches a long time ago. That is until the next theory arrives to supplant the current understanding.

 

Besides, how does one explain the evolution of Conciousness? Biological evolution is one thing, but evolution and the realization of "I", that "I exist" is another thing altogether. It was God, who gave us the realization of "I am" which is why he asked all of creation to bow down to us. It was not evolution that gave us this.

 

Also, even if we share 97% of the same genetic identity as other creatures on this planet...we are nonetheless 3% different. Look at how different men and women appear on the outside? I bet our genes are 99.99999% the same, so can you imagine what 3% would do?

 

So the upshot. Man did not evolve. He was sent down in his present form. All other creatures evolved. This does not contradict either science or the Qur'an, and in fact, reconciles them.

 

Peace.

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There is too much evidence to convincingly deny the Theory of Evolution.

 

However, God is very clear in the Qur'an that he created Adam from clay, and then from Adam, he created his mate. Then after disobeying God, He sent Adam and Eve down to earth, where we would have provision, multiply and be returned to God on the Day of Judgement. This is a story that is repeated at least a few times in the Qur'an. This is not allegorical...it is very definitive.

 

So how do you reconcile creation vs. evolution?

 

I've thought about this long and hard. I'm convinced that everything on this planet evolved...except Man! Man did not evolve, he was sent down by God to be the caretaker of this planet. After man was sent down, the evolutionary forces - that God created in the first place - then made their effects on mankind. We therefore evolved into different races; oriental, black, caucasean, native American, etc., as each community adapted to its environment. Note, we are all still the same species, but just different races. We have essentially stopped evolving, because we no longer adapt to the environment but rather we adapt the environment to us. We no longer pass on genes at different rates of reproduction - which is the basis of evolutionary theory, because most people, regardless of their disadvantage, still reproduce their genes.

 

Have you ever heard of the 'Missing Link' and what hominids are? Hominids are primates that stand up on two feet and are thought to be man's ancestors. Anthropologists cannot find any link in the line of hominid descendants that lead to Homo Sapiens. By the way, Chimpanzees are not man's ancestors, admitted even by evolutionists. Chimpanzees and Hominids share a common ancestor, but they broke off into different branches a long time ago. That is until the next theory arrives to supplant the current understanding.

 

Besides, how does one explain the evolution of Conciousness? Biological evolution is one thing, but evolution and the realization of "I", that "I exist" is another thing altogether. It was God, who gave us the realization of "I am" which is why he asked all of creation to bow down to us. It was not evolution that gave us this.

 

Also, even if we share 97% of the same genetic identity as other creatures on this planet...we are nonetheless 3% different. Look at how different men and women appear on the outside? I bet our genes are 99.99999% the same, so can you imagine what 3% would do?

 

So the upshot. Man did not evolve. He was sent down in his present form. All other creatures evolved. This does not contradict either science or the Qur'an, and in fact, reconciles them.

 

Peace.

 

It doesn't make any sense to consider evolution as a source for other organisms and exclude humans form that process. The laws of Allah applies to all things. They are universal. That is what science tells us, too.

 

But the problem we Muslims have with the evolutionists (Neo-Darwinists) is on several crucial aspects.

First, regarding the source of evolution. Who is behind it? What is the driving force behind it?

 

They are the ones who can't decide if is it simple chance or natural selection. And then they decide to choose both. But in different orders. Not as constant forces. Sometimes one of them is predominat to the other.

However, rules of the nature can't choose to work now and then take some brakes.

They have to be consistent throught the chain of chemical and physical reactions that started from the time of Big bang till now. Otherwise we can't explain things in scientific way.

 

Then the problem arises with the creation of the first living cell. They explain it with simple chance. Proteins were synthesized by chance, carcohydrates and lipids by chance. And they came together by chance in that famous soup to form a cell, which eventually ends up forming an entity by chance which then suddenly decides to feed itself and multiply in order to stay alive. Up to this point there is no this law of natural selection. Everything is perfectly free to behave in chaos. Is it?

 

Thus once the first cell forms it suddenly feels the need to struggle to survive. Why? What was the problem of those proteins, lipids and carbohydrates in forming a new entity, which would feed with them and transform them to other molecules. Wasn't it more logical for them trying to struggle to survive in their original form? Where does the principle of natural selection fit here? No it doesn't... Thus, the first inconsistency.

 

What is the reasoning behind a system which tries to maintain a stable form but it is aware it is destined to fail? No matter what it will eventually die without a trace like it has never existed before? Thus, all efforts to struggle for survival then can only be attributed as delusion. An impared vision regarding reality constanly spining in a viscous cycle. We humans consider that kind of state meaningless. And first of us to claim that would be a scientist. But when it applies to evlolution it suddenly becomes logical. How???

What is the use of a struggle if you know that you will never be able to win. You will always be defeated? Any logic in this. Anything to be praized about? But yet this is so meaninful to those "scientists" and evolutionists that they can't live without it...

 

Thus evolution theory lacks logic regarding those main two arguments. They can't come out with any meaning of this life based on their theory. According to them life can only be a delusion that we can beat the death. Thus we need to keep struggling... No logic at all.

Yet if you want to labeled as progessive individual you are simply required to believe in this theory and shape your life around its meaning!!! And that is claimed to be what the wisdom of the advancened science. Wow...

 

We Muslims believe that everything was created by the Almighty Allah in a perfect order and for a purpose.

We as humans are not able fully to explain the way Allah undertook the process of Creation. And what is the use of it? We are not going to create whatever was already created. And also none of us was in the R&D department of Creation. How are we supposed to figure out how excatly Allah did it?

 

We know things that Allah already told us in our Holy Qur'an. He told us he created the whole universe from one singularity then he spread the whole universe. Created all of this in stages named as days(6 days). And it is clear from Qur'an that the days of Allah can't be the same as our understanding of terrestial days.

 

During different stages of the creation and also depending on the nature of the occasion the concept of time can change. Sometimes the day of Allah can be 100, 1000 or 50,000 longer than ours.

Well, does anybody remember what Einstein became famous for? Theory of relativity is exactly about that relativity of time.

 

Allah told us that humans (Adem and Havva) were the last to be created. Thus other living creature were created before us. From what? Water, dust, mud. It was gradual creation. Even it is a divine second it still took a time for them to come beofre our existence. Some of the living species lived longer some of them perished. What is difficult to understand? Some of them like bacteria and viruses are still with us since they were created as their current form.

 

Thus I don't like to contradict whatever foccils they find. Still those are simply stages of the creation with some species surviving some not. New forms are simply new forms created as totally new species. Allah creation in work...

 

Science can only assure us about Allah and the truth of Islam!

 

Esselamunaleykum ve rahmetullah ve berekatuh!

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Assalamu Alaikum brother, and welcome to the forum...may you enjoy your time with us.

 

I have read your post twice now...and I'm not a 100% sure on your position regarding evolution. Here's what I'm sure of:

 

You believe that the same set of rules applied to all life, and there was not a separate rule for mankind.

 

Beyond this, you state:

But the problem we Muslims have with the evolutionists (Neo-Darwinists) is on several crucial aspects.

First, regarding the source of evolution. Who is behind it? What is the driving force behind it?

 

And I guess in the following quotes you are supporting your position of a driving force behind these tendencies:

Then the problem arises with the creation of the first living cell. They explain it with simple chance. Proteins were synthesized by chance, carcohydrates and lipids by chance. And they came together by chance in that famous soup to form a cell, which eventually ends up forming an entity by chance which then suddenly decides to feed itself and multiply in order to stay alive. Up to this point there is no this law of natural selection. Everything is perfectly free to behave in chaos. Is it?...

 

Thus once the first cell forms it suddenly feels the need to struggle to survive. Why? ...

 

What is the reasoning behind a system which tries to maintain a stable form but it is aware it is destined to fail? ...

 

What is the use of a struggle if you know that you will never be able to win. You will always be defeated? ...

 

Also, according to your statement below, I'm not sure if the Qur'an says Adam was the last of God's creation. Can you verify this?

Allah told us that humans (Adem and Havva) were the last to be created. Thus other living creature were created before us.

 

Below, are you supporting evolution, and saying God was the driving force behind it?

From what? Water, dust, mud. It was gradual creation.

 

Or are you saying God literally created everything, as in poof...and there it immediately was, as per your following statement:

Thus I don't like to contradict whatever foccils they find. Still those are simply stages of the creation with some species surviving some not. New forms are simply new forms created as totally new species. Allah creation in work...

 

So before I can really start discussing things with you...I would need your help to clarify these things for me.

 

I would however, like to comment on the following:

 

They are the ones who can't decide if is it simple chance or natural selection. And then they decide to choose both. But in different orders. Not as constant forces. Sometimes one of them is predominat to the other.

However, rules of the nature can't choose to work now and then take some brakes.

They have to be consistent throught the chain of chemical and physical reactions that started from the time of Big bang till now. Otherwise we can't explain things in scientific way.

In fact nature has shown a remarkable inconsistency. When conditions are just right...things happen quite suddenly. Take a look at how grasshoppers suddenly become locusts. There are lizards in the Galapagos Islands, that actually shrink in size...the entire bone structure and everything...when faced with famine. This is a sudden reaction to a sudden event. How about the giant asteroid thought to have caused the great dinosaur extinction event. That was sudden...and with no dinosaurs, there are suddenly new rules for remaining species...or after a great forest fire...there is a sudden change in the environment.

 

Look forward to your response.

 

Peace. Odobknarf

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Assalamu Alaikum brother, thanks for the your kind welcomegreeting!

 

Let me clear my position regarding evolution. I don't believe in it the way it is presented by those atheist scientists. They define evolution as independant process, directed by simple chance and "the struggle for survival". Anything but God. Well, I can't agree on that.

 

But I am not trying to close my eyes on the fossils evidence either.

 

In my opinion their efforts of explanation of the available evidence is simply limited by short sightedness, thus inability to see the whole picture. Why? Because the Almighty Creator Allah is missing in the picture.

 

What I am saying is that there is nothing there to contradict Allah's creation. But they can't see it that way.

 

And that can be explained by the misconception of "time". 6 days(periods) are relative terms of time. Because if the Earth was not present yet at the time when creation of Universe started it is obvious that it is not the terrestial day term that Allah is referring to us. It is a period of time relatively much longer than our undertanding of day (24 hours, one turn of the Earth around it orbit). Divine day is relative time period.

 

In one case, the measure of a day is equated with 50,000 years (70:4), whereas another verse states that "a day in the sight of your Lord is like 1,000 years of your reckoning" (22:47). The word "youm" is thus understood, within the Qur'an, to be a long period of time -- an era or eon. The length of these periods is not precisely defined, nor are the specific developments that took place during each period.

 

Thus we don't have the constraint of 6000 years of Christians.

 

I claim that whatever we found out in the fossil records can't contradict with Islamic understanding of creation.

 

Also, according to your statement below, I'm not sure if the Qur'an says Adam was the last of God's creation. Can you verify this?

 

Well, we don't have clear evidence regarding the sequence of creation of living organisms. But I assume when Allah decided to send Adem and Havva to Earth that would imply that Earth was already created. There is no mentioning about creation of animals following that decision. Thus Earth might have been already created long time before humans and already inhabited by various species of animals. When humans appeared on Earth there is no mentioning in any scripture about witnessing the creation of some animals in front of their eyes. So it must have been before humans came/descended to Earth. But I might be wrong. Only Allah knows.

 

If that is the case why I would be puzzled about the fossils of animals that existed before we came on Earth. Simply Allah created them before we came and decided to wipe them out and replace them with new species for reasons only he would know. Then how come we have to invent new theories to explain that. This is simple evidence that Allah created living organisms in certain order and at certain stages. Now evolutionists try to find missing links but can find them. Because an organism has to be a perfectly functioning organism in order to survive and multiple. And that is excatly what Almighty Allah is doing. All of those creatures were in harmony with their environment and fit perfectly.

 

In fact nature has shown a remarkable inconsistency.

 

Don't agree on that. I don't see any inconsistecy.

When conditions are just right...things happen quite suddenly. Take a look at how grasshoppers suddenly become locusts. There are lizards in the Galapagos Islands, that actually shrink in size...the entire bone structure and everything...when faced with famine. This is a sudden reaction to a sudden event.

 

It is called adaptation my friend. That lizard might change his phenotype but its genotype remains the same. This is simple act of genetic expression, a form of adaptation. Just shows us the great intelligence behind that creation, the signs of Allah. Maashallah! Allahu akbar!

 

How about the giant asteroid thought to have caused the great dinosaur extinction event. That was sudden...and with no dinosaurs, there are suddenly new rules for remaining species...or after a great forest fire...there is a sudden change in the environment.

 

Isn't that about what Allah constantly remind us? If he was displeased with a certain community because majority of them became disbelievers he replaced them with new ones. Thus dinosaurs were replaced by new species.

Why? Only Allah knows...

 

Peace!

Look forward to your response.

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Let me clear my position regarding evolution. I don't believe in it the way it is presented by those atheist scientists. They define evolution as independant process, directed by simple chance and "the struggle for survival". Anything but God. Well, I can't agree on that.

 

But I am not trying to close my eyes on the fossils evidence either.

 

I claim that whatever we found out in the fossil records can't contradict with Islamic understanding of creation.

Assalamu Alaikum brother,

 

Okay, let me put this in a very defined way. The way I see it, there are four possibilities:

 

1. The Theory of Evolution is true, all creatures on earth evolved including mankind. But God who created the Universe, also created the mechanism of evolution as the way He chose to create life...and God is the driving force behind life.

 

2. The Theory of Evolution is true, all creatures on earth evolved except for mankind. But God who created the Universe, also created the mechanism of evolution as the way He chose to create life exept for Man who was directly created and 'parachuted' down to earth sort to speak...and God is the driving force behind life.

 

3. The Theory of Evolution is incorrect, all creatures on earth were directly and instantly created by God at staggered times and places including mankind, according to God's will. Species become extinct as a natural consequence of the environment, and no new species are being created.

 

4. The Theory of Evolution is incorrect, all creatures on earth were directly and instantly created by God at staggered times and places including mankind, according to God's will. New species are still being created by God in the same way...though we may not be aware of this.

 

My position is clear. I belief in Scenario #2...how about you? I really do need to know your exact stance before I can present an argument.

 

Peace.

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I am for option 4.

Allah is behind every creation.

Allah is watching and commanding above all his creations.

When the time comes all of the living forms will return to him...

 

Elhamdilullah!

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Salamz

 

If you choose option 3, or 4 than please pick up a book like Origins of Species or Voyage of the beagle...or least wiki evolutionary science. :sl:

Option 1 is interesting as it coincides with transmutation so maybe that's what it all may come to if the missing link is found.

 

Option 2 is also interesting but since the link is missing, I am not too sure about that.

 

It will be cool to know where exactly though you would insert Adam on the evolutionary timeline?

 

######you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_i31.tinypic(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/5jvj0k.jpg[/img]

 

beacuse based on other things (like geology and speculation on Noah's flood) we can probably figure out how probable that is. :sl:

 

Peace

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Option 1 is interesting as it coincides with transmutation so maybe that's what it all may come to if the missing link is found.

Not a chance...about as likely as a pink unicorn on the edge of.....

 

Option 2 is also interesting but since the link is missing, I am not too sure about that.

D'oh...that's the point.

 

It will be cool to know where exactly though you would insert Adam on the evolutionary timeline?

Right at 'Presto'.

 

beacuse based on other things (like geology and speculation on Noah's flood) we can probably figure out how probable that is. :sl:

Whatchatalkinboutwillis...Noah's flood has nothing to do with Adam.

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Brother,

The evidence, and I do not intend to waste anyone's time either, is in all the Holy Scriptures, the last of which is the Quran itself. If you believe them to be true and accurate atleast on this part, then I suggest we all move onto a better topic. There is a lot to be done out there you know..

 

Peace to All.

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Not a chance...about as likely as a pink unicorn on the edge of.....

On the edge of a Pretty Castle floating in midair? :sl:

I can't say it's as unprobable as you make it sound...but consider this ..if they find the link or new facts change the big picture..this will be the only defense for theology.

Whatchatalkinboutwillis...Noah's flood has nothing to do with Adam.

Ofcource it does..Noah came well after Adam ..So if you insert Adam on the place of missing Link....then Adamn must have lived around 80,000 years ago.

SO if the flood happened like in 2 million years ago, then we know that Noah lived about 2 million years ago and Adam lived way before 2 million years ago so he can't be the missing link. :sl:

So where u place Adamn on the chart?

 

Peace

Edited by llogical

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I've been thinking about Islam and evolution recently as well. I have read up on evolution and how it works, and I have no doubt that the theory is logical, consistent, and correct. This is not only biological evolution, but also the evolution of artificial lifeforms in simulated worlds, using genetic algorithms. Anyways, before I delve further into this, I think it's best if I clarify what evolution, "chance", and natural selection really are.

 

What Evolution Does NOT Say

Many people mistakenly believe that evolution denies the existence of God, or that evolution says that life came by chance, or that different species came by chance. This is wrong. A lot of scientists do say that evolution is caused by "mother nature" etc. But this is only what the scientists say, and when they explain the theory of evolution, we must be careful to weed out the atheistic overtones in their explanations, and actually understand the theory itself, not the person beliefs of scientists. You see, science is a systematic method of gaining knowledge about the physical world. So the theory of evolution, being a scientific[/u] theory, neither acknowledges nor denies the existence of God. Science has nothing to do with God. Science just explains how, never asks why.

 

The Role of "Random" Mutations in Evolution

When evolutionary biologists talk about random mutations or things happening "by chance", they are not saying that things happen out of the blue. Instead, the given explanation is that the DNA of a living creature can change for various reasons. "By chance" mutations in DNA are caused by damage to the DNA from radiation, such as from cosmic rays. There is no need to believe that such mutations do not happen. We know they do. We see it happening in our own bodies. Radiation overdose can damage the DNA beyond recognition, and lead to cell death. (Radiation overdose also does many other things, like breaking apart the cell itself.) Mutations in DNA can also occur due to recombination errors when a cell divides. These mutations have been observed, and do occur. However, the machinery in the cell is remarkably robust, and in fact, most of the DNA is "junk". Mutations in the "junk" portions of DNA do not cause any problems. Mutations in the part of the DNA that is used by the cell, can cause the cell to behave abnormally. The DNA is the program of the cell, and the cell's computer runs this program. If something goes wrong in the DNA, it can kill the cell, or it can make the cell cancerous, or the cell may live but produce incorrect proteins. However, the immune system of the body knows these things happen, and it almost always is able to kill cells that have "gone bad". Most mutations don't do anything, and the harmful mutations are weeded out by natural selection, because creatures that carry harmful mutations are weeded out. On the other hand, a few rare mutations can give a creature a competitive advantage. What happens in this case is that this creature gets a better chance at reproducing than other creatures, because of the beneficial mutations. Most of the offspring carry the same mutation. They, in turn, are more successful at reproduction than other creatures who don't have the mutation. Thus, a beneficial mutation can be sustained and even eradicate creatures who don't have the mutation, by out-breeding them.

 

What is Natural Selection?

"Natural selection" is not some magical force that causes creatures to keep on existing and others to die off quickly. Natural selection is simply the name given to the process where creatures that are worse at survival than other creatures dwindle in numbers and may eventually even go extinct.

 

How Are New Species Formed?

I think there is no debate on changes within a species (such as skin color in humans), but the debate is on whether new species can actually form. New species form when a group of creatures splits off from a population, and stays in isolation until it can no longer breed with the original population. How can this happen? It happens in several different ways. The first thing required for a new species to form is that isolation occurs. Isolation means that there is gene flow between two or more groups of creatures. What this means is that, the groups of creatures (who are of the same species), have been isolated by environmental conditions in such a way that they can't breed between these groups. So how is isolation achieved? Isolation can be achieved in many ways. One way for isolation to happen is that a group of creatures was living on a land mass which broke into two separate land masses that receded from each other. Like a continent breaking off from another continent. This leads to speciation because, originally a single species was living in a certain land mass. The creatures in this land mass interbred with each other. So the offspring in this population had genes from everywhere else in the population. Since they had the same genes, they were the same species. But once their land mass was broken into two, the population got divided into two groups. The environment on the now two land masses was different. So, certain genes gained prominence in one population, while other genes gained prominence in the other population. Even if the environmental conditions varied on the original land mass, these genes would not have gained prominence while the population was united, because the genes were constantly being moved around the entire population. But as soon as the population split into two, the competition the genes faced changed. A gene that was beneficial for a certain environment would no longer be diluted by genes from a creature living in a different environment. As a result, new prominent genes appeared. At this point, the two populations would be distinct in their features, although not necessarily a separate species. What is required for a separate species is that genes re-arrange themselves in new ways, or that new genes are introduced. This happens through mutations. Every creature in each of the two populations has various mutations, and new ones being made all the time. Most of them don't do anything or the cell dies or gets killed off because its too damaged. But certain mutations survive into the a new generation. If this mutation weakens the creature, then in the process of natural selection, this mutation will get killed off or diluted. If the mutation is good for the creature, this mutation will spread throughout the entire population over the course of several thousand generations. After thousands and thousands of generations and many different mutations being passed around in each of the two populations, the DNA of the two populations becomes so different from each other that they can no longer interbreed and are now two different species. The best way to think of this is to think the DNA in every single creature is constantly trying to turn the creature's offspring into a new species. But what happens is that when the creature breeds with another creature, the DNAs of the two creatures mix together. Since all the creatures in a population are related to each other, and because they keep breeding with each other, the DNA of any single creature can never be too different from any other creature in the population. Only when a population is broken up into smaller populations, that the effect that the DNA of the rest of population had on a group is lost. So now that group maintains a collective DNA, but the groups DNA can now change with no influence from the DNA of the rest of the original population. So the different groups begin to diverge from each other. Eventually, they diverge to the point where they are no longer compatible, and each group becomes a new species. We see evidence of this in the fossil record, and even in creatures that are alive today. When look at the fossil record, we see that new species came into being when continents broke off. Australia has been isolated from the rest of the world for a long time, that's why we find that the creatures in Australia are very different from the creatures found elsewhere in the world (like the various marsupials australia has). Another way for a species to change into a new species is for a competitive threat to be removed. For example, suppose there was some species that lived mostly underground. Any members of the species that had a tendency to come above ground would usually get eaten by another species that lived on the ground. This way, only those changes in the DNA that caused the creatures to live underground and hide from the predators would get passed around in the genepool, while any changes that caused these creatures to come above ground would not get passed around. Now supppose the predatory species that lived on the ground went extinct (like the dinosaurs did). Now, genes that caused these creatures to come above ground would suddenly be good genes, because there is a lot more space and food above the ground than under it. So those genes that kept the creatures under ground would start to go extinct. Over millions of generations, the creatures would become completely different and be ground-dwelling creatures.

 

My Understand of Evolution And Islam

As I understand, there is absolutely no conflict between evolution and Islam. The only conflict that may be seen is where evolution says that humans, too, evolved from an earlier species. One of the points that evolution has going for it here is that humans are very similar to most other species on Earth (we share 97% of our genes with various other species). This is reflected in the fact that we, like other animals, breathe oxygen, are made up of the same elements, have DNA and other proteins, have 4 limbs, a nervous system, a brain, reproduce sexually, among many, many other things. However, it is no coincidence that we are like this, for we were placed on Earth, so it only makes sense we would be in a form that allows us to live on Earth. So the resolution of the apparent conflict is to say that yes, God created us so similar to other species because we were sent to live on Earth. Our form is the best form, and other species may have evolved forms similar to our form, but not perfectly. This resolution to the argument states, that basically God let the Earth evolve along with the lifeforms in it. When God decided the conditions were right on Earth for us to live, he fashioned us out of material from the Earth, into a form that best suited our living on Earth, and placed us on the Earth. Certain species had taken on forms similar to our form, simply because ours was the best form to be in given the conditions of modern Earth.

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I've been thinking about Islam and evolution recently as well. I have read up on evolution and how it works, and I have no doubt that the theory is logical, consistent, and correct. This is not only biological evolution, but also the evolution of artificial lifeforms in simulated worlds, using genetic algorithms. Anyways, before I delve further into this, I think it's best if I clarify what evolution, "chance", and natural selection really are.

...

...

...

My Understand of Evolution And Islam

.... So the resolution of the apparent conflict is to say that yes, God created us so similar to other species because we were sent to live on Earth. Our form is the best form, and other species may have evolved forms similar to our form, but not perfectly. This resolution to the argument states, that basically God let the Earth evolve along with the lifeforms in it. When God decided the conditions were right on Earth for us to live, he fashioned us out of material from the Earth, into a form that best suited our living on Earth, and placed us on the Earth. Certain species had taken on forms similar to our form, simply because ours was the best form to be in given the conditions of modern Earth.

Exactly.

 

Assalamu Alaikum brother cefarix,

 

I cannot communicate to you in words how happy I am to see you on this forum. You're enlightened reasoning is a breath of fresh air. I officially pass the baton on to you for the application of reasoned and knowledge based thought, while at the same time, remembering the almighty.

 

This forum is enriched by your presence...I look forward to your posts.

 

Peace. Odobknarf

Edited by odobknarf

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Selam brother cefarix,

 

thak you for your contributions. I would like to points out several issues you brought up, if you don't mind. :sl:

 

Science has nothing to do with God. Science just explains how, never asks why.

I agree with this this totally. However, it is the atheists who present this theory as alternative to Creation by God.

 

Thus, a beneficial mutation can be sustained and even eradicate creatures who don't have the mutation, by out-breeding them.

There are very a few examples of beneficial mutations to serve as the main driving force of the origin of the huge diversity of species. As you explained previously, most of the time the body itself has mechanisms to eradicate the cells with mutatant genome, no matter how beneficial they may seem.

 

And also humans as we know them are not committed to extermination of their offsprings no matter how mutant and defficient they are. They still take care of them till they die. However their chance of multiplication is limited. Thus the natural reaction is to limit multiplication with a mutant individual.

 

"Natural selection" is not some magical force that causes creatures to keep on existing and others to die off quickly. Natural selection is simply the name given to the process where creatures that are worse at survival than other creatures dwindle in numbers and may eventually even go extinct.

 

I would like to know about the evidence supporting the disadvantaged status of Neanderthals and the other extinct primates in terms of natural selection. Were they less adaptable to the wilderness than the modern time man Homo Sapiens? What killed them? What is the proof regarding the role of natural selection?

 

The first thing required for a new species to form is that isolation occurs.

 

Are you trying to say that isolation is behind the vast diversity of species. Well how do you explain the validity of "isolation" some 300 million years ago when the Earth had only one supercontinent called Pangaea. How can we claim about serious isolation preseeding that period of time. Then what about the origin of Dinosaurs? What isolation limited those huge and strong animals from moving around one super continent so that they had to develop a lifestyle of flying then only swimming? The role of isolation can't be a source of the diversity. It is irrational to consider that all enviornemtal changes are directed by chance and then evolution of species is dependant on that. Whatever force changed the environment would be able to bring new species to live that would be able to survive in those environments... Allah doesn't put a burden on us that we won't be able to cope with... Allah didn't design as to invent new ways of life. In fact, since day one of our existence he would send us messengers prophecizing the same rules and norms over and over again. The expectations of God from us are the same- to maintain the order he gave us. To live like humans not like some animals. As long as we comply with the set rules he promises not to extreminate our kind from Earth. Who knows those species who were exterminated didn't follow the rules or simply their mission was over. Only Allah knows.

 

After thousands and thousands of generations and many different mutations being passed around in each of the two populations, the DNA of the two populations becomes so different from each other that they can no longer interbreed and are now two different species.

 

The modern humans were present around for some 2 million years. Can you point out any of those mutations that prevents different human races from interbreeding? Or are you going to say 2 millions of years are not enough? Then how long is enough?

 

As you said before DNA is the program of all living beings. It is like the operational system, the software that runs the hardware. Can you give me an example of a single software that was brought up by chance as an addition to my Windows OS which made my computer more efficient and fast. Something that my computer came with up spontaneously without no intervention by me or other party. All of us know that the opreational system of a computer has to be designed by high intelligence. The new version of Windows can only be brought up by the software crew of Microsoft. No chance or isolation or any natural selection would bring the change. The intelligence would bring it.

Oh, I know, there is one way of bringing change in the life of my computer and that is by viruses that caused it to crash several times. Those viruses are the equivalent of your beloved "mutations". I haven't come across to a single beneficial virus so far. Have you?

 

Thus, you can't mess with DNA by some mutations and benefit from that unless it is done knowingly and specifically using a well known beneficial gene for certain purpose by some intelligent scientists in the lab. But where is the lab of nature. Where is the intelligent scinetist of the "mother nature"? I know the ultimate source of intelligence - the Almighty Allah. If anybody has suspicion on that can't claim to be a good believer.

 

As I understand, there is absolutely no conflict between evolution and Islam.

 

The evoluton the way you presented it has a huge problem with Islam. Allah created the whole universe and all living and non-living matter as subordinates of his comands. All of them are a result of intelligence. All of them are created for purpose. All of that had a beginning and will be put to an end for purpose.

All of the living and non-living matter would account for their behavior.

However, the humans with their highest level of freedom of choice and intellect is the most liable creation to fail the test of Allah. No other creature is more arrogant and selfish than humans.

Because of that liability no other creation on Earth is able to gain more from Allah's mercy and love than humans.

If can only humans realize their purpose in life they won't have any suspicion regarding Allah and his creation. They wouldn't have wasted time trying to explain the origins of life with alternative shortsighted theories which seem totally independant from the will of Allah.

Brothers we don't have enoguh time to waste. Our days on this Earth are numbered. Every single moment that didn't helped us to understand and appreciate Allah is our loss with no return.

 

I wish that all of your efforts bring you to a better understanding of Allah and our place in this Earth.

 

Peace!

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Brother Ghazi Turk,

 

I agree with this this totally. However, it is the atheists who present this theory as alternative to Creation by God.

 

Yes, but I was talking about evolution, not atheists or even scientists, just the scientific theory of evolution itself.

 

here are very a few examples of beneficial mutations to serve as the main driving force of the origin of the huge diversity of species. As you explained previously, most of the time the body itself has mechanisms to eradicate the cells with mutatant genome, no matter how beneficial they may seem.

 

A mutation does not have to manifest itself as a sudden and abrupt physical change. A mutation is usually even simpler than a change in the color of hair of an animal. Also, a mutation is not the driving force behind a new species, it is genetic isolation. Genetic isolation allows mutations to flourish that would otherwise not have.

 

And also humans as we know them are not committed to extermination of their offsprings no matter how mutant and defficient they are. They still take care of them till they die. However their chance of multiplication is limited. Thus the natural reaction is to limit multiplication with a mutant individual.

 

Firstly, I do not believe that humans have evolved. However, mutations happen all the time in humans. Most are deadly or damaging, but some are benign. These benign mutations can be used as genetic markers, and they can be (and have been) used to trace the lineage of people. Also, most mutations that are not fatal, do not prevent a person from reproducing. A mutation in the eye color for example, does not limit the chances for reproduction.

 

I would like to know about the evidence supporting the disadvantaged status of Neanderthals and the other extinct primates in terms of natural selection. Were they less adaptable to the wilderness than the modern time man Homo Sapiens? What killed them? What is the proof regarding the role of natural selection?

 

First, the question needs to be asked, were these other species actually human or not? I think they were also people just like us. If some of them died out due to changing environmental conditions, then so be it. I don't see how that has any bearing on the Evolution vs Islam debate. If by the role of natural selection you mean the role that natural selection has played in humans, then its pretty clear. We see the different features that humans have adapted into over the millenia, and we have different skin colors, facial features, etc.

 

Are you trying to say that isolation is behind the vast diversity of species. Well how do you explain the validity of "isolation" some 300 million years ago when the Earth had only one supercontinent called Pangaea. How can we claim about serious isolation preseeding that period of time. Then what about the origin of Dinosaurs? What isolation limited those huge and strong animals from moving around one super continent so that they had to develop a lifestyle of flying then only swimming? The role of isolation can't be a source of the diversity. It is irrational to consider that all enviornemtal changes are directed by chance and then evolution of species is dependant on that. Whatever force changed the environment would be able to bring new species to live that would be able to survive in those environments... Allah doesn't put a burden on us that we won't be able to cope with... Allah didn't design as to invent new ways of life. In fact, since day one of our existence he would send us messengers prophecizing the same rules and norms over and over again. The expectations of God from us are the same- to maintain the order he gave us. To live like humans not like some animals. As long as we comply with the set rules he promises not to extreminate our kind from Earth. Who knows those species who were exterminated didn't follow the rules or simply their mission was over. Only Allah knows.

 

Isolation has nothing to do with whether the continents are together or apart. It simply means that one or more populations of creatures that are capable of inter-breeding are prevented from doing so. Secondly, I don't think I brought up mention of "chance" anywhere. I think I already explained earlier that what is meant by "chance" is that things happen due to external causes. This does not mean that the whole system's ultimate cause was not God himself. Again, you bring up the point of humans. But I've already said, I don't believe humans evolved from another species. We were human to begin with, starting with Adam and Eve who were created in the perfect form.

 

The modern humans were present around for some 2 million years. Can you point out any of those mutations that prevents different human races from interbreeding? Or are you going to say 2 millions of years are not enough? Then how long is enough?

 

Humans are unique in that they never faced the same problems other species did. This is thanks to our intelligence. Instead of having our bodies suited to a particular climate, or a particular lifestyle, we can choose to live in many, many different ways, in many different climates and places. This is because wherever we go, we can change our environment so that it suits us. It is just as God said, that he has created the Earth and that which is in it for us to use for ourselves. Therefore, even if a human population has been isolated from other populations for even a million years, it is not enough to create a new species, because humans everywhere in the world change their environment to be of the same general type. The eskimos in the Arctic did not evolve fur. Instead they used they made thick clothes to protect themselves against the cold. The Arab bedouins did not evolve a hump to store water and energy like the camel did. Instead the Arab bedouins found wells, and stored their water in special containers.

 

As you said before DNA is the program of all living beings. It is like the operational system, the software that runs the hardware. Can you give me an example of a single software that was brought up by chance as an addition to my Windows OS which made my computer more efficient and fast. Something that my computer came with up spontaneously without no intervention by me or other party. All of us know that the opreational system of a computer has to be designed by high intelligence. The new version of Windows can only be brought up by the software crew of Microsoft. No chance or isolation or any natural selection would bring the change. The intelligence would bring it.

Oh, I know, there is one way of bringing change in the life of my computer and that is by viruses that caused it to crash several times. Those viruses are the equivalent of your beloved "mutations". I haven't come across to a single beneficial virus so far. Have you?

 

DNA is not like a regular computer program. A regular computer program cannot be taken apart and put back together in a different order and still be expected to work. But DNA is so modular that it can and does. We have only recently modeled Genetic Algorithms in computer programs in this fashion. I suggest that you study a bit about Genetic Algorithms and the results it has given. Genetic Algorithms have evolved new creatures in simulated worlds, they have created new types of antenna that function better than anything a person could have designed. Genetic Algorithms work by having genes that describe certain characteristics. For example, a gene might describe a joint in a virtual creature, or it might describe a bend in the shape of the antenna. Different ordering and numbering of the genes gives the virtual creature joints in different positions, or gives the antenna bends at different positions and angles. They work by choosing a parent genome. Then this genome is tested for fitness. For example, a virtual creature made by this genome is tested to see how fast it runs in the virtual environment, or an antenna's reception is simulated to see how well it receives. Then random mutations are applied to this genome, and many children genomes are created. Then all these children are tested one by one. Only the children that score better than the parent are kept. Then children are made from them, and the process is repeated. After thousands of generations and mutations, an extremely efficient design is produced. All by random mutation. It is a powerful technique, and it's been proven.

 

Now I have to say something extremely important. All that you have mentioned above (the stuff that I quoted so far) has got nothing to do with the Islam vs Evolution debate. You are simply pointing out some thing which you don't believe to be true. Scientist themselves already pointed these things out (as is done to any scientific theory), and these matters were successfully resolved. Therefore, the above is just a critique of evolution based on scientific grounds, not on religious grounds. And evolution has already been proven by scientists and so I see no reason to doubt that it is true. All of your claims against evolution, were already brought forth by scientists, and other scientists then answered them satisfactorily.

 

Thus, you can't mess with DNA by some mutations and benefit from that unless it is done knowingly and specifically using a well known beneficial gene for certain purpose by some intelligent scientists in the lab. But where is the lab of nature. Where is the intelligent scinetist of the "mother nature"? I know the ultimate source of intelligence - the Almighty Allah. If anybody has suspicion on that can't claim to be a good believer.

 

I never said that Allah does not know about the mutations that are happening in DNA. And then you bring up "mother nature". There is nothing in the theory of evolution that talks about "mother nature". Brother, you should first study what you set out to disprove so you know what it is you are disproving. Evolution also says nothing about the ultimate source of intelligence. I have no suspicion that Allah is the Grand Designer of all creation, including life and all the species and humans.

 

The evoluton the way you presented it has a huge problem with Islam. Allah created the whole universe and all living and non-living matter as subordinates of his comands. All of them are a result of intelligence. All of them are created for purpose. All of that had a beginning and will be put to an end for purpose.

All of the living and non-living matter would account for their behavior.

However, the humans with their highest level of freedom of choice and intellect is the most liable creation to fail the test of Allah. No other creature is more arrogant and selfish than humans.

Because of that liability no other creation on Earth is able to gain more from Allah's mercy and love than humans.

If can only humans realize their purpose in life they won't have any suspicion regarding Allah and his creation. They wouldn't have wasted time trying to explain the origins of life with alternative shortsighted theories which seem totally independant from the will of Allah.

Brothers we don't have enoguh time to waste. Our days on this Earth are numbered. Every single moment that didn't helped us to understand and appreciate Allah is our loss with no return.

 

Again, evolution does not mention God anywhere. It doesn't say anything about who or what created the universe and all life. All evolution is describes is how it happened. Let's say there is a theory about baseballs. This theory can predict how fast the baseball goes when the player hits it. It is silly to say that because we know how fast the baseball is moving, Allah did not cause the baseball to move. Yes, we know that everything happens by the will of Allah, and now we also know how the law that Allah has created that governs the speed of a baseball works. It is the same with life and species. We have merely discovered a part of the mechanism by which Allah created life and species on Earth.

 

You mention that we should not waste our time about trying to explain the origins of life. Firstly, evolution does not explain the original of life. It only tells us how life evolved after it appeared on Earth. Secondly, it is not a waste of time. Evolution has been extremely useful in modern medicine, because it teaches us how to make vaccines and control the spread of diseases. The discovery of evolution has saved possibly millions of peoples lives who would otherwise have been infected, or died, without proper disease control and prevent and modern vaccination. Saving the life of a person, and easing the suffering of another human being, are some of the best things that a person can do for another in Islam. So I fail to see how studying evolution is a waste of our time. More than this, it allows to see the beauty of Allah's creation, to see the signs of Allah's creation, that we were not able to do so before. Just like before we had telescopes or before we had microscopes, we could not see the signs of Allah inside the atom or among the galaxies and stars, we were only able to see a few signs of Allah in the species he created. Now that we know a lot more about how Allah created the species, we can see even more signs and be amazed at the qudrat of Allah SWT.

 

W'salam.

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"Also, a mutation is not the driving force behind a new species, it is genetic isolation. Genetic isolation allows mutations to flourish that would otherwise not have."

 

You got to explain this better. Mutations happen at similar rate in all living organisms no matter if they are isolated or not. How isolation makes them flourish?

--------------------------

"Isolation has nothing to do with whether the continents are together or apart."

 

Are you saying that physical obsticles don't have anything to do with isolation or let's put in more likeble to you way "incapability to inter-breed".

 

It simply means that one or more populations of creatures that are capable of inter-breeding are prevented from doing so.

How? If their DNA stays pretty much the same because of all those prevetive mechanisms why would they not be able to interbreed. No beign mutation changes the chance of interbreeding. One day when they eventually meet again they are still able to interbreed.

 

I

think I already explained earlier that what is meant by "chance" is that things happen due to external causes.

Well, what are those external causes? Environment? Meteor storm? Temperature? Are those froces by chance? No, they are all following the plan of Allah. Nothing happens outside of Allah's command. There is no chance, there is destiny.

 

But I've already said, I don't believe humans evolved from another species. We were human to begin with, starting with Adam and Eve who were created in the perfect form.

What happened to Neanderthals and Homo erectus? You told us that they were humans like us. Were they not perfect to survive? And by the way what scientific book you are reading regarding the equivalence of Homo erectus and Neandertals. What scientist claim they are the same as Homo sapiens?

 

Humans are unique in that they never faced the same problems other species did. This is thanks to our intelligence. Instead of having our bodies suited to a particular climate, or a particular lifestyle, we can choose to live in many, many different ways, in many different climates and places.

 

Well, how that fits into your isolation theory. Since humans were able to fit to any environment it would have been easier for them to isolate themselves from outside world. Thus preventing interbreeding. Tell me more about a sea animal or fish that was forced to isolatation. How did that happen? Or what about any birds? How vere they isolated or prevented them form going South? What is that term isolation? I am loosing it... :wacko:

 

DNA is not like a regular computer program.A regular computer program cannot be taken apart and put back together in a different order and still be expected to work.

 

I never claimed that we are more intelligent than God, DNA is way too superior than any computer programs. But still, as far as remember from my high school BASIC class is not that tough the change the algorythm of a computer program.(GO TO ... THEN..., rings a bell?) But you are right to point out the fact that somebody has to do it. It doesn't happen by external forces "by chance" who first cause mutations then let the computer itself choose the beneficial ones. With the bad ones it simply crashes.

Once an intelligent programmer developes a software then the computer doesn't have any choice but to obey it.

The same with all living organisms. All of them obey Allah's rules.

 

We have only recently modeled Genetic Algorithms in computer programs in this fashion.

 

I am not sure what are you trying to prove with those genetic algorithms. But let me put it in simple way. Humans thanks to their knowledge design some algorithms so they achieve a certain

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goal. And you are telling me that the best one is the one that utilizes the example of Genetic modulation. That is great. Because the best solution we can find can't be better than the one which Allah showes us in his creations. I agree we always have to follow the intelligent designs of Allah. Beacuse our abilities are so limited.

 

 

I

have no suspicion that Allah is the Grand Designer of all creation, including life and all the species and humans.

 

I am not sure about your position on that. First you claim humans were created independantly in miraculous way by Allah. Then you are suspicious about that could have happened to the rest of the living creatures. You prefer to explain their evolution by the that long process of try and fail. Where si the place of Allah in that picture. Is he the one that at least created the first living cell? You have to claify those things. You have to decide what to believe. Because yours is not neither a science nor a religion. You are confused brother.

But please first clear up your own confusions and then decide what to support and what not. Beacue you are contradicting yourself.

 

Again, evolution does not mention God anywhere.It doesn't say anything about who or what created the universe and all life. All evolution is describes is how it happened.

 

Yet you like to stick to a contradictory theory rather than seek refuge in the intelligence of Allah. And you are claiming that with the theory of evolution scientists now have found the way Allah creates living organisms. But you refuse their claim that it applies on humans, too? Do you believe them at all? How consistent is that?

 

Evolution has been extremely useful in modern medicine, because it teaches us how to make vaccines and control the spread of diseases.

 

I am not sure what vaccinations and evolution has in common? Can you explain more?

 

More than this, it allows to see the beauty of Allah's creation, to see the signs of Allah's creation, that we were not able to do so before. Just like before we had telescopes or before we had microscopes, we could not see the signs of Allah inside the atom or among the galaxies and stars, we were only able to see a few signs of Allah in the species he created.

 

I am sorry brother. I haven't come across many evolutionists expressing their admiration to Allah based on their findings regarding evolution. Because evolution has always served as a tool against religion we are not compelled to it. Nice try but didn't work this time. :sl:

 

Peace.

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"Also, a mutation is not the driving force behind a new species, it is genetic isolation. Genetic isolation allows mutations to flourish that would otherwise not have."

 

You got to explain this better. Mutations happen at similar rate in all living organisms no matter if they are isolated or not. How isolation makes them flourish?

 

When a benign mutation occurs in a creature, it quickly gets passed around in the population because of interbreeding. So the whole population gets the mutation and nothing changes. There can be several environmental factors tugging on a simple population. Suppose that there is a population of creatures in a thousand mile wide area. On the right of this area, there is a lot of rainfall and lush plants grow, and on the left side of this area, there is little rainfall and most only grass grows. As you can see this puts different competing demands on this population. When a mutation occurs that is beneficial to living in a dry area, the population on the left side of the area benefits. But in just a few generations, because the entire population interbreeds, this mutation is passed on to animals who live on the right side of the area, in the rainy and lush green part. This mutation is not beneficial to living a wet area. So what happens is that this mutation survives in a benign form, it is not re-inforced over many generations. But suppose something happens and splits the population into two. Now one population lives in the wet area, and one population lives in the dry area. Now this mutation that was beneficial to living in a dry area does not have to be mixed with creatures who live in the wet area. This mutation can then get reinforced over many generation, because now all the creatures that are inter-breeding live in the dry area.

 

"Isolation has nothing to do with whether the continents are together or apart."

 

Are you saying that physical obsticles don't have anything to do with isolation or let's put in more likeble to you way "incapability to inter-breed".

 

Physical obstacles are only one cause of isolation. There can be many others, for example, if a population is split into groups by the arrival of other animals. So perhaps some animals settled in an area and ate most of the food of the original animals. So the original animals are forced out of this area. The original animals move out and settle into some areas on the west, some to the east, some to the north... but they can't get back to each other because of the other animals in between.

 

Well, what are those external causes? Environment? Meteor storm? Temperature? Are those froces by chance? No, they are all following the plan of Allah. Nothing happens outside of Allah's command. There is no chance, there is destiny.

 

An external cause is any external input to a contained system. An external cause would be any factor that our variables do not explain. These things are called "by chance". This does not mean that Allah SWT did not cause them. Allah SWT is the First Cause, he Caused everything, and he Sustains everything.

 

What happened to Neanderthals and Homo erectus? You told us that they were humans like us. Were they not perfect to survive? And by the way what scientific book you are reading regarding the equivalence of Homo erectus and Neandertals. What scientist claim they are the same as Homo sapiens?

 

This is not a question of perfection. When a person dies, do you say that this person was not perfect to survive? No, he simply died because it was his time to go. I am not saying Homo erectus or neanderthalensis were humans. I'm saying they may have been, from what I have learned about how they lived and what they looked like. Most scientists do not consider Homo erectus, Neanderthals, or modern humans to be the same. This is why they call them by different names. There is some evidence to suggest that Homo sapiens and Neanderthalensis interbred, so some scientists say they should be the same species, just different sub-species.

 

Well, how that fits into your isolation theory. Since humans were able to fit to any environment it would have been easier for them to isolate themselves from outside world. Thus preventing interbreeding. Tell me more about a sea animal or fish that was forced to isolatation. How did that happen? Or what about any birds? How vere they isolated or prevented them form going South? What is that term isolation? I am loosing it... :sl:

 

Firstly, it's not my theory. Humans cannot live isolated from the world. We are dependent on it. Humans were able to fit to any environment because they changed the environment to be the same. That was my whole point, which I guess you missed. My point was that humans have the unique ability to modify their environment to suit their needs. This is why people all around the world share the same things: food, shelter, clothing, weapons, etc. Because all humans have the same basic things around them, all humans live in the same basic environment. Even more than this, we care for the sick, and we don't abandon the crippled. Animals will kill their own weak. For example, lions will eat their own cubs. But we humans don't need to do this because our survival in the world doesn't depend on genetic fitness. It depends on our intelligence. They key to speciation is that the population splits and the environment is different for each group of the population. Humans have not been split very much, at most a few thousand years. But someone always interbreeds between them because humans can travel very far and not die. Also, humans everywhere live in the same basic environment so very little environment difference among the different human population groups.

 

I never claimed that we are more intelligent than God, DNA is way too superior than any computer programs. But still, as far as remember from my high school BASIC class is not that tough the change the algorythm of a computer program.(GO TO ... THEN..., rings a bell?) But you are right to point out the fact that somebody has to do it. It doesn't happen by external forces "by chance" who first cause mutations then let the computer itself choose the beneficial ones. With the bad ones it simply crashes.

Once an intelligent programmer developes a software then the computer doesn't have any choice but to obey it.

The same with all living organisms. All of them obey Allah's rules.

 

Yes, I know how computer algorithms work - I am a computer programmer. And of course all organism obey Allah's rules. Everything obeys Allah's rules. I think you are misunderstanding the usage of the word "chance". Using the word chance does not negate that Allah SWT causes it to happen. It only means we did not know it was about to happen, and it just happened. But of course Allah SWT knew. He knows everything.

 

I am not sure about your position on that. First you claim humans were created independantly in miraculous way by Allah. Then you are suspicious about that could have happened to the rest of the living creatures. You prefer to explain their evolution by the that long process of try and fail. Where si the place of Allah in that picture. Is he the one that at least created the first living cell? You have to claify those things. You have to decide what to believe. Because yours is not neither a science nor a religion. You are confused brother.

But please first clear up your own confusions and then decide what to support and what not. Beacue you are contradicting yourself.

 

I do not claim that humans were independently created by Allah SWT. It says that in the Quran so I believe it without questioning it. As for regarding life in general, I merely look at the evidence we have and draw the most likely conclusion from it, which is evolution. Allah did not just create the first cell. He created the entire universe. He created the first cell, and the second cell, and every cell. He created every creature, every species, every atom in their bodies, every mutation in their DNA, every gene in their genome. He is the one who moves the entire universe forward from moment to moment with his Qadr and his Power. He is the one that Sustains the mechanism by which his creation functions (the laws of physics, etc). I do not see where the contradiction is here.

 

Yet you like to stick to a contradictory theory rather than seek refuge in the intelligence of Allah. And you are claiming that with the theory of evolution scientists now have found the way Allah creates living organisms. But you refuse their claim that it applies on humans, too? Do you believe them at all? How consistent is that?

 

Scientists can claim things. In the end they are human, and a lot of what they say is science mixed in with their own personal beliefs. You have to be careful to be able to distinguish the science from the scientist. Now many scientists believe that humans are descendants of earlier species. I don't think this is true because it is says in the Quran that Allah SWT create Adam and Eve and placed them on Earth from which all Humans came. This is completely consistent. I believe Allah SWT in what He has told me. And where Allah SWT did not explain to us, I study with my own mind that Allah SWT gave me. Allah SWT did not teach me how to use a computer in the Quran or Sunnah, so this is something I learned with my own mind, of course with permission from Allah SWT and his sustenance because he is my creator. In the same way, Allah SWT did not tell us in the Quran or Sunnah how biology works. So we used our minds to figure it out by experiments and reason. The Quran contains the absolute knowledge so that has to be learned first. Then we can learn about other things from ourselves. So I don't see any contradiction here.

 

I am not sure what vaccinations and evolution has in common? Can you explain more?

 

You see bacteria and viruses breed millions of times faster than plants or animals. So they undergo evolution very quickly. Every year, we have a new version of the flu virus, because it mutates all the time, undergoing evolution. New diseases constantly appear (like SARS), and some old diseases don't exist any more. Also, our antibiotics are having an evolutionary effect on diseases. You see, antibiotics act like an environmental pressure. Before antibiotics were invented, bacteria had genes in them which made them vulnerable to antibiotics. This is why antibiotics were so helpful in killing them. But now, when some parts of the world use antibiotics all the time, what's happening is that bacteria that are have genes which make them vulnerable to antibiotics are dying quickly. The bacteria who had mutations which allowed them to survive the antibiotics then multiply and breed and the next generation of bacteria is a bit more antibiotic-resistant. Since bacteria can undergo millions of generations very very quickly, there are now many types of bacteria which are completely immune antibiotics. Antibiotics-resistant tuberculosis is such a disease. In order to understand what kind of new disease can emerge, and how our own medicine affects the evolution of bacteria, including vaccinations, we need to understand how bacteria and viruses evolve and mutate and change. This is why evolution is so important in the medical field.

 

I am sorry brother. I haven't come across many evolutionists expressing their admiration to Allah based on their findings regarding evolution. Because evolution has always served as a tool against religion we are not compelled to it. Nice try but didn't work this time. rolleyes.gif

 

Well, I was not talking about scientists or evolutionists. I was just talking about the scientific theory of evolution. There are thousands of physicists in the world who do not believe in Allah, but that doesn't mean that physics is wrong. If physics, like relativity and quantum mechanics, were wrong, then we wouldn't have computers today. Also, just because someone uses a particular thing as a weapon against something else, does not make that particular thing bad. It makes the person that uses it for bad, bad. If I kill someone use a baseball bat, it does not make the baseball bat bad. It makes me bad. So separate the scientific theory of evolution from the beliefs held by scientists and evolutionists, and look at evolution alone, not the people who use it for their own agenda.

 

Salam

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When a benign mutation occurs in a creature, it quickly gets passed around in the population because of interbreeding.

I am not aware of a mutation that can be passed around to the whole population simply because of interbreeding. First of all not all mutations are passed to te next generation. It has to be mutation that occurs in a sperm or ovum. A mutation that occurs later on for example in a skin cell is not transferred to the next generation.

And also living creatures are not constantly interbreeding with everybody that comes on their way. The most of them have partners. And there is some loyalty, as well, even though not long lasting. The number of offsprings an animal can deliver are numbered, too. They can only get to pass their mutation to their numbered offsprings. But don't forget, non-mutant animals are getting reproduced at the same rate. Since a beneficial mutation is so rare it ends up happening in very small proportion of the population. And that proportion remains the same over the time. Because animals have to find a mate to reproduce. They can't wait until that "lucky" mutant comes and copulates with them. Thus the number of non-mutants increase at same rate keeping the ratio of mutant to non-mutant relatively the same.

 

Suppose that there is a population of creatures in a thousand mile wide area. On the right of this area, there is a lot of rainfall and lush plants grow, and on the left side of this area, there is little rainfall and most only grass grows. As you can see this puts different competing demands on this population.

 

This is an assumption based on a limitation. You assume that somebody intentionally dispersed those animals over a vast area with different ecosystmes. Since they are also unable to move around they are stuck with whatever they find. Thus they decide to change.

I don't see that happening in real world. Animals know where to go for their food and water. They don't change their preference for food. If they have to walk for days or months for that they would still go that way until they find it. And once they find it they would even fight for it if they have to. This is the real struggle for survival. They don't mind that. If there is no other hope they die for their cause.

 

When a mutation occurs that is beneficial to living in a dry area, the population on the left side of the area benefits.

If that happens it happens only in one in thousands or even less frequent than that. Then all of the non-mutants in the dry area die that summer or next. But the mutant survives alone unable to reach his genital maturity thus to multiply. One and only. And if the mutant can find his way to the wet land he can have a chance to pass his benign mutant gene to an offsrping living in the WetLand.

Otherwise he would live a lonely life and then some years later die too. The only way for him to multiply is to find his way to the properous population. Yet his chance of acceptance there would be very low. A skinny wierdo coming from the wilderness is not a hip among the females of Wetland. May be only the left behind, the unwanted by all female would agree to mate with him. Then your beneficial mutation becomes diluted by a big chunk of weak genes. All of this efforts for what. Nothing. You see your theory doesn't add up to make any sense since the begining.

 

Physical obstacles are only one cause of isolation. There can be many others, for example, if a population is split into groups by the arrival of other animals. So perhaps some animals settled in an area and ate most of the food of the original animals. So the original animals are forced out of this area. The original animals move out and settle into some areas on the west, some to the east, some to the north... but they can't get back to each other because of the other animals in between.

 

Again assumption based on a limitation that doesn't exist in real life. No animal settles somewhere until decides that place would provide enough food and water. They keep moving until they find the right place. No man settles in the middle of a desert simply because he counts on the possibility he can develop a mutation that would cause him to benefit from photosynthesis... He needs to find a place where there is water, shelter and food. He can't simply decide to feed with scorpions and thus maintain his fluid and energy balance. You need to give me specific examples from real life and even history.

 

This does not mean that Allah SWT did not cause them. Allah SWT is the First Cause, he Caused everything, and he Sustains everything.

But for some reason in your understanding Allah SWT is not able to create those all species by the simple command "BE". You'd rather believe he just commanded them to undergo metamorphosis - evolution over a long period of time. Why not instantenous creation? What is wrong with that?

 

Firstly, it's not my theory. Humans cannot live isolated from the world. We are dependent on it. Humans were able to fit to any environment because they changed the environment to be the same.

Humans were only able to change environment drasticaly for the past 200-300 years. And that period is not in the scope of evolution. There are still many places on Earth where humans live according to their environment. The only thing they do is built a shelter and live in communities. They still have to fight wild animals in Amazons and Africa. Those conditions are the scope of evolution.

 

For example, lions will eat their own cubs.

Imagine if that cub was the only possessor of a mutation that would enabled lions to fly. Here goes your mutation... Nature is cruel.

 

"But we humans don't need to do this because our survival in the world doesn't depend on genetic fitness. It depends on our intelligence."

Intelligence is genetically determined...

 

Any animal is pretty much able to move around and interbreed with neigboring communties./ There is no real isolation for the most of living organisms. Thus isolation is a virtual term. Far from supporting a scientific theory.

 

I never claimed that we are more intelligent than God, DNA is way too superior than any computer programs. But still, as far as remember from my high school BASIC class is not that tough the change the algorythm of a computer program.(GO TO ... THEN..., rings a bell?) But you are right to point out the fact that somebody has to do it. It doesn't happen by external forces "by chance" who first cause mutations then let the computer itself choose the beneficial ones. With the bad ones it simply crashes.

Once an intelligent programmer developes a software then the computer doesn't have any choice but to obey it.

The same with all living organisms. All of them obey Allah's rules.

 

Yes, I know how computer algorithms work - I am a computer programmer. And of course all organism obey Allah's rules. Everything obeys Allah's rules. I think you are misunderstanding the usage of the word "chance". Using the word chance does not negate that Allah SWT causes it to happen. It only means we did not know it was about to happen, and it just happened. But of course Allah SWT knew. He knows everything.

"I do not see where the contradiction is here."

 

You claim Allah let the all living organism to evolve until they get to a better form then when the right moment came he created us instantenously and sent us to Earth. And you base your belief on Quran. Where does it say in Quran that Allah let animals evolve over a long period of time? It only mentiones that they were created for the benefit of mankind. It doesn't imply when and how. It doesn't imply that it was a different process than creation of humans either. Why do I have to invent a new explanation to things that are of no benefit to us and thus Allah didn't wanted to reveal it to us. What is the benefit of that effort except trying to squeez in some bida??? Bring fitna and confusion in the minds of Muslims.

 

What benefit the concept of evolution would bring to our lives as Muslims. Am I going to believe Allah more by bringing controversial explanations to Allah's creation process. Who am I to understand how Allah creates. As a creation I can never be able to understand the complete perspective of the Creator.

 

"You see bacteria and viruses breed millions of times faster than plants or animals. So they undergo evolution very quickly. Every year, we have a new version of the flu virus, because it mutates all the time, undergoing evolution. New diseases constantly appear (like SARS), and some old diseases don't exist any more. Also, our antibiotics are having an evolutionary effect on diseases. You see, antibiotics act like an environmental pressure. Before antibiotics were invented, bacteria had genes in them which made them vulnerable to antibiotics. This is why antibiotics were so helpful in killing them. But now, when some parts of the world use antibiotics all the time, what's happening is that bacteria that are have genes which make them vulnerable to antibiotics are dying quickly. The bacteria who had mutations which allowed them to survive the antibiotics then multiply and breed and the next generation of bacteria is a bit more antibiotic-resistant. Since bacteria can undergo millions of generations very very quickly, there are now many types of bacteria which are completely immune antibiotics. Antibiotics-resistant tuberculosis is such a disease. In order to understand what kind of new disease can emerge, and how our own medicine affects the evolution of bacteria, including vaccinations, we need to understand how bacteria and viruses evolve and mutate and change. This is why evolution is so important in the medical field."

 

Oh man, that is not evolution. It is their way of life. It is a method of adaptation. That is how the microbial intelligence work. Those mutations are not causing the evolution of a new species. The morphology and function of all vital bacterial components don't change. It is only a few receptors that change so that our cells are not able to recognize them or simply the binding sites for the antibiotics change. But the species remains the same. Thus HIV virus remains as HIV virus. TB bacillus remains TB. It is a perfect example of falsehood of evolution. Those bacteria and viruses survive by constant ID change. A few receptors change and that change their virulance. We are still not able to beat HIV despite all the antiviral meds. Or even a simple influenza virus despite the all annually renewed vaccinations. We call evolution the process of creation of new species. Even in bacteria there are no examples of new species forming out of other ones.

 

Well, I was not talking about scientists or evolutionists. I was just talking about the scientific theory of evolution. There are thousands of physicists in the world who do not believe in Allah, but that doesn't mean that physics is wrong.

Of course not everything is wrong but there is no absolutly correct scientific facts either. If a physicist makes an unsopported conclusion I don't have to believe it is true until he proves it scientifically. Then I would grant him a credit.

But that is not what evolutionists do. They built a theory on chain of unsupported assumptions simply based on logic. That is not science. If you have a theory the test it and prove it.

I am still waiting for a valid test. A test that would show the formation of a new self sustainable species from another one and all of that occuring independantly in natural conditions without the interference from humans. Until the I can't agree that it is a scientific theory. In this it can only presented as phylosophical claim or some sort of pseudoscientific religion.

 

PEACE!

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