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Is Hell In Islam Eternal?

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:sl:

 

You've got it bro. That's exactly what I'm saying, although God can take out whom He wills from Hell. Just bear in mind the verses of the Qur'aan that I've posted.

 

This is merely an observation.

 

:sl:

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PropellerAds
You've got it bro. That's exactly what I'm saying, although God can take out whom He wills from Hell. Just bear in mind the verses of the Qur'aan that I've posted.

 

Well okay...that's a possibility I never thought of so I learned something today. Still, if Hell ends, their pain will end also, so in that sense, torture is not eternal even if they are in hell 'forever'. I am not saying I agree with this, only that even from this perspective they do not suffer eternal torture.

 

I would like to know what Redeem, Joseph and Haqqul_Yaqeen have to say to my specific quotes - since I did after all, reply to each and every specific point raised by everyone.

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"O My slaves, I have forbidden Myself oppression and I have made it between you forbidden, so do not oppress one another." Muslim

 

Is it not the greatest oppression to punish a human with an infinite hell (which is the worst torture in existence) for finite/limited sins? Just the concept of eternal punishment is disgusting: sustaining the existence of a creature indefinitely just to make it feel pain.

I couldn't agree with you more...which is why I had to resolve this issue first, before I became a muslim; which in my mind, I have.

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AA Brothers and Sisters,

 

I raised this topic up about a week ago. I am supporting the position that hell is for a limited time period. I have backed this up with verse upon verse. I have responded to each and every point initially raised by individuals who's position was that hell was for eternity. I have not heard any reply to my responses since then.

 

Now, let's look at this from an Islamic point of view on ethical conduct. Is it right to initially post your views quickly and request for my reply, which I do promptly. And then, even after I make a request for a reply, it is completely ignored? On top of that, two of you are forum guardian members whose job it is to lead by example. Even if you don't have an answer, is it so difficult to simply acknowledge my points and say you will get back to me?

 

Do you think this behaviuor is right? What do you think is the right Islamic conduct?

 

As a reminder, my last post is below, though there are many prior posts that remain unanswered.

 

AA sister, you raise a good question. I did not think to differentiate as the idea didn't even enter my mind. Well it looks like there is a difference according to Hadith...though you know my view on Hadith from my earlier post. I think the point is that God is letting some people out. As for those who were the worst of evildoers, the ones that did not believe in God and transgressed beyond all bounds, do these people ever get released? This is the acid test sort to speak. And I think the answer is clear:

Abdel Haleem, 78:21-27

 

"Hell lies in wait, a home for oppressors to stay in for a long, long time, where they will taste no coolness nor drink except one that is scalding and dark - a fitting requital, for they did not fear a reckoning..."

 

Sister, I don't know how those number you have listed can be derived from this verse...maybe I'm not understanding something. If it has to do with strictly the Hadith...again you know my position on that. But either way, it is clear. This verse says "a long, long time." And even if the answer was 14Million, 400Thousand Years and not 50,000 years - it is still not forever.

 

Everything is pointing to a limited time period, however long it may be. Can anyone dispute this? Can anyone explain how "a long, long time" can be interpreted in any other way except that time in Hell is not forever? I would really appreciate it if you responded to this specific question. Can anyone explain, even if the Hadith is correct, how 14,400,000 years can be considered anything but a very long but limited time? And if you reject this Hadith, then on what basis do you accept other Hadith? Either way, there's some "splain'in to do."

 

Peace.

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Maybe people are not responding because you said this :

“I couldn't agree with you more...which is why I had to resolve this issue first, before I became a muslim; which in my mind, I have.â€

So it seems that they don’t want to prove to you something which could be the cause of your atheism or whatever , anyway in another thread you have said this :

“God, however, hasn't given us enough intelligence to solve this contradiction...so we go on in disbelief until the day we die.The real decision, isn't about reconciling the apparent contradictions, because you'll never get there. The real decision is about whether or not you want to embrace the warm and fuzzies, and deciding which warm and fuzzy feels right.

At the end of the day, it really does come down to a matter of faith.â€

So I wonder why are you trying to solve what seems a contradiction when you believe :

“This includes making sense of his apparent contradictions, which, though we don't realize it, in reality aren't contradictions at all.â€

Here is an idea for this debate , evil cannot be redeemed , whatever you have done you cannot undo , it’s timeless .

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AA reincarnated,

 

I see someone's been going through my drawers.

 

Maybe people are not responding because you said this :

“I couldn't agree with you more...which is why I had to resolve this issue first, before I became a muslim; which in my mind, I have.â€

So it seems that they don’t want to prove to you something which could be the cause of your atheism..."

Maybe...the thought did cross my mind. Good point. In case anyone's listening in...even if I was proven wrong, it wouldn't change my faith at this point.

 

“God, however, hasn't given us enough intelligence to solve this contradiction...so we go on in disbelief until the day we die.The real decision, isn't about reconciling the apparent contradictions, because you'll never get there. The real decision is about whether or not you want to embrace the warm and fuzzies, and deciding which warm and fuzzy feels right.

At the end of the day, it really does come down to a matter of faith.â€

So I wonder why are you trying to solve what seems a contradiction when you believe :

“This includes making sense of his apparent contradictions, which, though we don't realize it, in reality aren't contradictions at all.â€

Belief, understanding and the coming to terms with one's own faith is an evolutionary process. This was early on, when I was still going through the questioning phase. Don't get me wrong. I am a strong advocate of questioning. I feel this is one of the huge issues the Muslim community faces. We just say "Allah knows best" or "the scholars have ruled", and stop thinking. God didn't create man and among all his creatures, give us the power to reason, so that we stop using our minds. Muslims in the Free Will vs. Predestination dilemma, generally fall in the predesination camp. Unfortunately, one of the drawbacks to this is to leave it to God; but God helps those who help themselves. The Qur'an states to seek help through steadfastness and prayer. Not just one or the other.

 

Having said that, there is a limit before it becomes unproductive. I suspect llogical has reached this limit, quite a while ago actually, but he will have to figure that one out for himself.

 

Here is an idea for this debate , evil cannot be redeemed , whatever you have done you cannot undo , it’s timeless .

Sorry chief...wouldn't be much of a debate. One of the reasons God is All-Merciful is that in Islam, we believe all human beings can be forgiven, until their dying day, no matter what their sins - directly and without an intercessor - if they sincerely repent and believe in God. So, you could be 60 years old and committed a lifetime of evil, and if you did the math, you would never have enough years left to recover even if you became an angel; you would be doomed for hell. But God, in his mercy, doesn't allow this to be a factor, he extends his mercy throughout your lifetime; he forgives you of your worst of sins and rewards you according to the best of your deeds - provided you sincerely repent and believe before you die.

 

Peace.

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Yes sister Aamina, it is true that there comes a point where we must concede it is beyond our reasoning, but not without contemplation, reflection, steadfastness and praying to God for understanding. I don't believe we've reached that point on this topic...yet. It may come, but not yet. God does not want us to give up so easily, regardless of what the Scholars may have us believe. That is why, a hadith says to go to China if you must in regards to seeking knowledge. So onwards we go:

 

Abdel Haleem, Hud, 11:106-108

 

"The wretched ones will be in the Fire, signing and groaning, there to remain for as long as the heavens and earth endure, unless your Lord wills otherwise: your Lord carries out whatever He wills. As for those who have been blessed, they will be in Paradise, there to remain as long as the heavens and earth endure, unless your Lord will otherwise - an unceasing gift."

 

What do you suppose "...unless your Lord wills otherwise..." is suggesting? Think about it. Isn't He the All-Merciful? If God wills otherwise, and God is the All-Merciful - remember these are God's own words - what do you think this is adding up to?

 

Notice God says "...your Lord carries out whatever He wills..." after the description of potential release from Hell, as if to support this possibility. Yet, after the same statement made in reference to Heaven, God says "...an unceasing gift". He doesn't say "...whatever He wills", which would support the statement that Heaven will end, but rather "unceasing gift" supports the continuation of Heaven.

 

In other words, God is demonstrating that His Mercy is greater than his Punishment, a theme that runs throughout the Qur'an. God is very subtly suggesting, that he will release people from Hell but Heaven will be an unceasing gift.

Abdel Haleem's translation, 2:166-167

 

The Condition of the Happy People and their Destination

 

 

Allah, the Exalted, says,

 

 

[æóÃóãøóÇ ÇáøóÃöíäó ÓõÚöÃõæÇú]

 

 

(And those who are blessed.) These are the followers of the Messengers.

 

 

[ÃóÃöì ÇáúÌóäøóÉö]

 

 

(they will be in Paradise,) This means that their final abode will be Paradise.

 

 

[ÎóÜáöÃöíäó ÃöíåóÂ]

 

 

(abiding therein for all the time) This means that they will remain there forever.

 

 

[ãóÇ ÃóÇãóÊö ÇáÓøóãóÜæóÊõ æóÇáÇøñÑúÖõ ÅöáÇøó ãóÇ ÔóÂÃó ÑóÈøõßó]

 

 

(that the heavens and the earth endure, except as your Lord wills:) The meaning of the exception that is made here is that the condition of eternal pleasure that they will experience therein is something that is not mandatory by itself. Rather, it is something that is dependent upon the will of Allah. Unto Him belongs the favor of immortality upon them. For this reason they are inspired to glorify and praise Him, just as they are inspired to breathe. Ad-Dahhak and Al-Hasan Al-Basri both said, "It is about the right of the disobedient people of Tawhid who were in the Fire and then brought out of it.'' Then Allah finished this statement by saying,

 

 

[ÚóØóÂÃð ÛóíúÑó ãóÌúÃõæÃò]

 

 

(a gift without an end.) This means that it will never be cut off. This has been mentioned by Mujahid, Ibn `Abbas, Abu Al-`Aliyah and others. This has been mentioned so that the suspicious person will not doubt after the mention of the will of Allah. Someone may think that the mention of Allah's will here means that the pleasure of Paradise may end or change. To the contrary, it has been decreed that this pleasure will truly be forever and will never end. Likewise, Allah has clarified here that the eternal torment of the people of the Fire in Hell also is due to His will. He explains that He punishes them due to His justness and wisdom. This is why He says,

 

 

[Åöäøó ÑóÈøóßó ÃóÚøóÇáñ áøöãóÇ íõÑöíÃõ]

 

 

(Verily, your Lord is the doer of whatsoever He intends.) Similarly, Allah says,

 

 

[áÇó íõÓúÃóáõ ÚóãøóÇ íóÃúÚóáõ æóåõãú íõÓúÜóáõæäó ]

 

 

(He cannot be questioned as to what He does, while they will be questioned.)[21:23] Here, Allah soothes the hearts and affirms the intent, by His saying,

 

 

[ÚóØóÂÃð ÛóíúÑó ãóÌúÃõæÃò]

 

 

(a gift without an end.) It has been recorded in the Two Sahihs that the Messenger of Allah said,

 

 

«íõÄÊóì ÈöÇáúãóæúÊö Ãöí ÕõæÑóÉö ßóÈúÔò ÃóãúáóÃó ÃóíõÃúÈóÃõ Èóíúäó ÇáúÌóäøóÉö æóÇáäøóÇÑö¡Ëõãøó íõÞóÇáõ: íóÇ Ãóåúáó ÇáúÌóäøóÉö ÎõáõæÃñ ÃóáóÇ ãóæúÊó¡ æóíóÇ Ãóåúáó ÇáäøóÇÑö ÎõáõæÃñ ÃóáóÇ ãóæúÊ»

 

 

(Death will be brought in the form of a handsome ram (on the Day of Judgement) and it will be slaughtered between Paradise and the Hellfire. Then, it will be said, "O people of Paradise! Eternity and no death! O people of Hellfire! Eternity and no death!'') In the Sahih it is recorded that the Messenger of Allah said,

 

 

«ÃóíõÞóÇáõ: íóÇ Ãóåúáó ÇáúÌóäøóÉö Åöäøó áóßõãú Ãóäú ÊóÚöíÔõæÇ ÃóáóÇ ÊóãõæÊõæÇ ÃóÈóÃðÇ¡ æóÅöäøó áóßõãú Ãóäú ÊóÔöÈøõæÇ ÃóáóÇ ÊóåúÑóãõæÇ ÃóÈóÃðÇ¡ æóÅöäøó áóßõãú Ãóäú ÊóÕöÃøõæÇ ÃóáóÇ ÊóÓúÞóãõæÇ ÃóÈóÃðÇ¡ æóÅöäøó áóßõãú Ãóäú ÊóäúÚóãõæÇ ÃóáóÇ ÊóÈúÃóÓõæÇ ÃóÈóÃðÇ»

 

 

(It will be said, `O people of Paradise, verily you will live and you will never die. You will remain young and you will never grow old. You will remain healthy and you will never become ill. You will be happy and you will never grieve.)

 

 

[ÃóáÇó Êóßõ Ãöì ãöÑúíóÉò ãøöãøóÇ íóÚúÈõÃõ åóÜÄõáÇÃö ãóÇ íóÚúÈõÃõæäó ÅöáÇøó ßóãóÇ íóÚúÈõÃõ ÃóÇÈóÇÄåõã ãøöä ÞóÈúáõ æóÅöäøóÇ áóãõæóÃøõæåõãú äóÕöíÈóåõãú ÛóíúÑó ãóäÞõæÕò - æóáóÞóÃú ÃóÇÊóíúäóÇ ãõæÓóì ÇáúßöÊóÜÈó ÃóÇÎúÊõáöÃó Ãöíåö æóáóæúáÇó ßóáöãóÉñ ÓóÈóÞóÊú ãöä ÑøóÈøößó áóÞõÖöìó Èóíúäóåõãú æóÅöäøóåõãú áóÃöì Ôóßøò ãøöäúåõ ãõÑöíÈò - æóÅöäøó ßõÜáÇøð áøóãøóÇ áóíõæóÃøöíóäøóåõãú ÑóÈøõßó ÃóÚúãóÇáóåõãú Åöäøóåõ ÈöãóÇ íóÚúãóáõæäó ÎóÈöíÑñ ]

 

 

(109. So be not in doubt as to what these people (pagans and polytheists) worship. They worship nothing but what their fathers worshipped before (them). And verily, We shall repay them in full their portion without diminution.) (110. Indeed, We gave the Book to Musa, but differences arose therein, and had it not been for a Word that had gone forth before from your Lord, the case would have been judged between them, and indeed they are in grave doubt concerning it (this Qur'an).) (111. And verily, to each of them your Lord will repay their works in full. Surely, He is All-Aware of what they do.)

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:sl:

 

1. There are 19 angels guarding hell: Why do you need angels guarding hell unless presumably it is possible to escape from it or allow people to leave it.

 

The Keepers of Hell

 

Mighty and stern angels stand over Hell who never disobey God. They do precisely as ordered. God says:

 

“O you who believe, save yourselves and your families from a Fire whose fuel is men and stones over which are (appointed) angels, stern and severe, who flinch not (from executing) the commands they receive from God, but do (precisely what) they are commanded.” (Quran 66:6)

 

They are nineteen keepers of Hell as God says:

 

“Soon I will cast him into Hell Fire. And what will explain to you what is Hellfire? Nothing does it allow to endure, and nothing does it leave alone! Darkening and changing the color of man! Over it are nineteen (angels as keepers of Hell).” (Quran 74:26:30)

 

One should not think that the inhabitants of Hell will be able to overcome the keepers of Hell because there are just nineteen of them. Everyone of them has the strength to subdue all humanity by himself. These angels are called the Guards of Hell by God in the Quran:

 

“And those in the Fire will say to the Guards of Hell, ‘Call upon your Lord to lighten for us the torment for a day!’” (Quran 40:49)

 

The name of the chief angel guarding over Hell is Malik, as mentioned in the Quran:

 

“Surely, the disbelievers will be in the torment of Hell to abide therein forever. (The torment) will not be lightened for them, and they will be plunged into destruction with deep regrets, sorrows and in despair therein. We wronged them not, but they were the wrongdoers. And they will cry: ‘O Malik! Let your Lord make an end of us’ He will say: ‘Surely, you shall abide forever.’ Indeed We have brought the truth to you, but most of you have a hatred for the truth” (Quran 43:74-78)

 

2. There is a door out of hell: Again, a door implies the inherent ability to exit.

 

What does this have to do with ANYTHING? Allah will take whom so ever He Wills out of the Fire - and we know that He will do this. However if you are trying to say that Hell-fire will cease to exist at some point, or everyone will be taken out of the Fire, then you are basing that on nothing but a guess. You have provided no evidence to this whatsoever.

 

3. There will be no escape from Hell on this Day (implying the Day of Judgment) and that a Day for God is like 50,000 years by human reckoning. Again, implying that after this Day, however long it is, those in hell may be allowed to leave.

 

What are you talking about? Do you even know what you are saying here? This is refering to the Day of Judgement (You said it yourself!) So occording to you... after the DAY OF JUDGEMENT those in the Fire are allowed to leave before they have even entered it?

 

Surah 70. The Ascending Stairways, Staircases Upward, Sckeptic

 

1. A questioner asked about a Penalty to befall-

 

2. The Unbelievers, the which there is none to ward off,-

 

3. (A Penalty) from Allah, Lord of the Ways of Ascent.

 

4. The angels and the spirit ascend unto him in a Day the measure whereof is (as) fifty thousand years:

 

5. Therefore do thou hold Patience,- a Patience of beautiful (contentment).

 

6. They see the (Day) indeed as a far-off (event):

 

7. But We see it (quite) near.

 

8. The Day that the sky will be like molten brass,

 

9. And the mountains will be like wool,

 

10. And no friend will ask after a friend,

 

11. Though they will be put in sight of each other,- the sinner's desire will be: Would that he could redeem himself from the Penalty of that Day by (sacrificing) his children,

 

12. His wife and his brother,

 

13. His kindred who sheltered him,

 

14. And all, all that is on earth,- so it could deliver him:

 

15. By no means! for it would be the Fire of Hell!-

 

16. Plucking out (his being) right to the skull!-

 

17. Inviting (all) such as turn their backs and turn away their faces (from the Right).

 

18. And collect (wealth) and hide it (from use)!

 

19. Truly man was created very impatient;-

 

20. Fretful when evil touches him;

 

21. And niggardly when good reaches him;-

 

22. Not so those devoted to Prayer;-

 

23. Those who remain steadfast to their prayer;

 

24. And those in whose wealth is a recognised right.

 

25. For the (needy) who asks and him who is prevented (for some reason from asking);

 

26. And those who hold to the truth of the Day of Judgment;

 

27. And those who fear the displeasure of their Lord,-

 

28. For their Lord's displeasure is the opposite of Peace and Tranquillity;-

 

29. And those who guard their chastity,

 

30. Except with their wives and the (captives) whom their right hands possess,- for (then) they are not to be blamed,

 

31. But those who trespass beyond this are transgressors;-

 

32. And those who respect their trusts and covenants;

 

33. And those who stand firm in their testimonies;

 

34. And those who guard (the sacredness) of their worship;-

 

35. Such will be the honoured ones in the Gardens (of Bliss).

 

36. Now what is the matter with the Unbelievers that they rush madly before thee-

 

37. From the right and from the left, in crowds?

 

38. Does every man of them long to enter the Garden of Bliss?

 

39. By no means! For We have created them out of the (base matter) they know!

 

40. Now I do call to witness the Lord of all points in the East and the West that We can certainly-

 

41. Substitute for them better (men) than they; And We are not to be defeated (in Our Plan).

 

42. So leave them to plunge in vain talk and play about, until they encounter that Day of theirs which they have been promised!-

 

43. The Day whereon they will issue from their sepulchres in sudden haste as if they were rushing to a goal-post (fixed for them),-

 

44. Their eyes lowered in dejection,- ignominy covering them (all over)! such is the Day the which they are promised!

Edited by Muhammad Qadir

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:sl:

 

And they say: "The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days:" Say: "Have ye taken a promise from Allah, for He never breaks His promise? or is it that ye say of Allah what ye do not know?"

 

Nay, those who seek gain in evil, and are girt round by their sins,- they are companions of the Fire: Therein shall they abide (For ever).

 

But those who have faith and work righteousness, they are companions of the Garden: Therein shall they abide (For ever). [2:80-82]

 

And this alone should be sufficient.

Edited by Muhammad Qadir

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AA brother Muhammad Qadir,

 

Hope this post finds you in good spirits and in good health.

 

What are you talking about? Do you even know what you are saying here? This is refering to the Day of Judgement (You said it yourself!) So occording to you... after the DAY OF JUDGEMENT those in the Fire are allowed to leave before they have even entered it?

 

First, a few suggestions if I may.

 

1. Try and quote only the relevant verses, within a sura, as they relate to the specific discussion at hand. This will keep the posts shorter and more manageable as well as make things more efficient since we will not have to sort through the non-relevant information.

 

2. If you wish to engage in a conversation with me, try not talking down at me, and I will certainly afford you the same respect.

 

Now, if we agree on this, we can proceed with mutual respect, God willing.

 

What I am talking about is this. I am suggesting the Day of Judgement is a very very long time. We don't know exactly how long, it could be 1,000 years or 50,000 years or 14,400,000 years or longer or shorter. We don't know because these verses are not meant to be literal but rather allegorical in nature. What it does tell us however, is that the Day of Judgement itself is for a limited time period, however long it may be.

 

If you read the verses I quoted from my earlier posts, you will notice they suggest the punishment may only be for the Day of Judgement by using terms such as "on this day...", and "on the day..". So for example, "there will be no escape"...combined with..."on this day" may suggest after this day there is a possibility that God will allow people out.

 

So, those going to Hell would enter Hell at the beginning of the Day of Judgement, and then after that Day is over, say 1,000 years of 50,000 years or 14,400,000 or any long, long, period of time....that God may, and since he is All-Merciful...will very likely let us out.

 

That's all I'm saying. What do you think?

 

Oh, and thank you for quoting the following verse for me. I remember this quote well, and was looking for it, but was not able to find it:

 

And they say: "The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days:" Say: "Have ye taken a promise from Allah, for He never breaks His promise? or is it that ye say of Allah what ye do not know?"

 

I wanted to confirm in my mind that I was not saying things "...of Allah what ye do not know?".

 

I still am not sure in mind if, by saying it is for a limited time, that I might in fact be doing this. However, I am not saying hellfire will be for a few numbered days. I'm saying quite the opposite; that it will be for a very very very long time.

 

Well, I would certainly be interested in hearing your thoughts on this.

 

Peace.

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:sl:

 

As for the Righteous, they will be in bliss;

 

And the Wicked - they will be in the Fire,

 

Which they will enter on the Day of Judgment,

 

And they will not be able to keep away therefrom.

 

And what will explain to thee what the Day of Judgment is?

 

Again, what will explain to thee what the Day of Judgment is?

 

(It will be) the Day when no soul shall have power (to do) aught for another: For the command, that Day, will be (wholly) with Allah [82:13-19]

 

Compare verse 13 to verse 14.

 

Verse 13: Inna alabrara lafee naAAeemin (As for the Righteous, they will be in bliss)

 

Verse 14: Wainna alfujjara lafee jaheemin (And the Wicked - they will be in the Fire)

 

Therefore, if you are claiming that once the Day of Judgment is over the inhabitants of the Fire will be taken out... then why would you also not suggest that the people on Paradise will also not be taken out of Paradise?

 

Also, the verse states that they will enter on the Day of Judgment (Which they will enter on the Day of Judgment), nowhere does it suggest in the Quran that after the Day of Judgment they will be taken out of the Fire.

 

Please list me all of the evidence you have to back up your claim in one post inshaAllah, with reference to the Quran.

Edited by Muhammad Qadir

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:sl:

 

"God has rejected the disbelievers and prepared a blazing fire for them. There they will stay permanently, with no one to befriend or support them. On the Day when their faces are being turneed about in the Fire, they will say, 'If only we had obeyed God and the Messenger,"

 

It does say 'permanently', but it follows it with "On the Day...". As in, permanently on the Day of Resurrection.

 

This verse is explaining how the people of the Fire will have regret... and as you know from my previous post they will enter the Fire ON the Day of Judgement. So this verse is explaining to us how the disbelieving people will wish they had obeyed Allah and His Messenger... it is not suggesting what you are saying it is. It is not suggesting that they will stay in Hell until the Day of Judgment is over, it merely states that they will ENTER Hell on the Day of Judgment...

Edited by Muhammad Qadir

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Is hell eternal? Well Allah says that a day to Him is 1000 of our years. So when looking at Allahs time if we were to get 3 hours 5 hours or even a day in hell it is like an eternity to us Allah says in sura 11 ayat 106-107 "As for the wretched they shall be in the Fire wher they shall moan and cry, and they shall abide therein unless your Lord otherwise will, so long as the heavens and the earth endure. Surely your Lord does bring about very well what He intends .

 

In this ayat it shows that hell may not be for eternity however we must take into account what a day to Allah is. And for us just one day will seem like an eternity.

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Is hell eternal? Well Allah says that a day to Him is 1000 of our years. So when looking at Allahs time if we were to get 3 hours 5 hours or even a day in hell it is like an eternity to us Allah says in sura 11 ayat 106-107 "As for the wretched they shall be in the Fire wher they shall moan and cry, and they shall abide therein unless your Lord otherwise will, so long as the heavens and the earth endure. Surely your Lord does bring about very well what He intends .

 

In this ayat it shows that hell may not be for eternity however we must take into account what a day to Allah is. And for us just one day will seem like an eternity.

 

:sl:

 

And those who are blessed shall be in the Garden: They will dwell therein for all the time that the heavens and the earth endure, except as thy Lord willeth: a gift without break. [11:108]

 

I guess (according to what you have said) that the same also applied to Paradise? If not, why?

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Salaams,

 

You know the more I look at this...the more I realize "Allah knows best" applies. Sister Aamina may have been right all along. It is important to point out that it may be equally wrong to say Hell is for eternity as it is to say Hell is for a limited period. I categorize verses, as they relate to this topic, in 3 buckets:

 

1. At least one verse that says "for a long, long, time",

2. Verses that say "forever" or "permanently".

3. Verses that say "on this day".

 

and

 

4. God's veto card, where He says "unless God wills otherwise".

 

To me this is similar to God saying:

 

5. A Day is like 1,000 years.

6. A Day is 50,000 years.

 

and consider that some versus are literal, and some allegorical.

 

It was my conclusion when verses seem to contradict each other, as they do above, they are allegorical, especially when God uses the word "like" which clearly denotes a comparison.

 

So, to definitively say, Hell is for eternity would be to assume that you know what God will do in point 4 above. Does anyone claim that they know whether God will exercise his option of "unless God wills otherwise". I certainly don't. If God wills otherwise, then people get out of Hell. If he doesn't, then they are in Hell forever. The point is we do not know.

 

Since we do not know, to claim Hell is forever is to claim you know God's will. No one can claim this. So, there can be only one possible conclusion:

 

Time in Hell may or may not be for eternity. We simply do not know. Allah knows best.

 

It is very iimportant to note however, that all those who were strongy claiming that Hell is definitely forever, would have to answer if they know God's will when he says "unless God wills". Does any who say 'Hell is forever' make such a claim?

 

Please answer this specific question.

 

Peace.

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Salaams,

 

You know the more I look at this...the more I realize "Allah knows best" applies. Sister Aamina may have been right all along. It is important to point out that it may be equally wrong to say Hell is for eternity as it is to say Hell is for a limited period. I categorize verses, as they relate to this topic, in 3 buckets:

 

1. At least one verse that says "for a long, long, time",

2. Verses that say "forever" or "permanently".

3. Verses that say "on this day".

 

and

 

4. God's veto card, where He says "unless God wills otherwise".

 

To me this is similar to God saying:

 

5. A Day is like 1,000 years.

6. A Day is 50,000 years.

 

and consider that some versus are literal, and some allegorical.

 

It was my conclusion when verses seem to contradict each other, as they do above, they are allegorical, especially when God uses the word "like" which clearly denotes a comparison.

 

So, to definitively say, Hell is for eternity would be to assume that you know what God will do in point 4 above. Does anyone claim that they know whether God will exercise his option of "unless God wills otherwise". I certainly don't. If God wills otherwise, then people get out of Hell. If he doesn't, then they are in Hell forever. The point is we do not know.

 

Since we do not know, to claim Hell is forever is to claim you know God's will. No one can claim this. So, there can be only one possible conclusion:

 

Time in Hell may or may not be for eternity. We simply do not know. Allah knows best.

 

It is very iimportant to note however, that all those who were strongy claiming that Hell is definitely forever, would have to answer if they know God's will when he says "unless God wills". Does any who say 'Hell is forever' make such a claim?

 

Please answer this specific question.

 

Peace.

 

:sl:

 

Please rephrase the question, I can't quite understand it.

 

Secondly, my brother, I personally don't want to enter the Fire for even a split second - and I'm sure you don't either... therefore we should concentrate more on striving to please our Lord to attain His Mercy, inshaAllah. We all want to enter Paradise, and want to be saved from the Fire.

 

Lastly please give me an example of each:

 

1. At least one verse that says "for a long, long, time",

2. Verses that say "forever" or "permanently".

3. Verses that say "on this day".

 

...Especially number 3 if you can.

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Please rephrase the question, I can't quite understand it.

 

Let me put this another way. Do you claim to know God's will? The answer is 'No'.

If the answer is 'No' then, consider when God says sura 11 ayat 106-107 which says,

 

"As for the wretched they shall be in the Fire where they shall moan and cry, and they shall abide therein unless your Lord otherwise wills..."

 

So focus on "unless your Lord otherwise wills..". Since you don't know God's will, you don't know whether he will or will not let people out of hell. If God chooses to let people out of hell, then hell is not forever. If God chooses not to let them out, then they will stay in hell forever. The point is we do not know. And since we do not know, it would be wrong to say hell is forever, and it would also be wrong to say hell is for a limited time. That's why, Allah knows best. Makes sense?

 

Secondly, my brother, I personally don't want to enter the Fire for even a split second - and I'm sure you don't either... therefore we should concentrate more on striving to please our Lord to attain His Mercy, inshaAllah. We all want to enter Paradise, and want to be saved from the Fire.

 

You are right brother, whether we are in Hell for a very very long time or forever doesn't make a difference on how we should behave. We need to be the best we can. But that doesn't mean we should be saying the wrong thing, like, Hell is forever or Hell is not forever. It's better to say, we do not know, Allah knows best.

 

Lastly please give me an example of each:

...Especially number 3 if you can.

 

My memory for the Qur'an is very peculiar. I remember the verses, I just don't remember where they are. So I will find these for you but I'll need some time.

 

Peace.

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Let me put this another way. Do you claim to know God's will? The answer is 'No'.

If the answer is 'No' then, consider when God says sura 11 ayat 106-107 which says,

 

"As for the wretched they shall be in the Fire where they shall moan and cry, and they shall abide therein unless your Lord otherwise wills..."

 

So focus on "unless your Lord otherwise wills..". Since you don't know God's will, you don't know whether he will or will not let people out of hell. If God chooses to let people out of hell, then hell is not forever. If God chooses not to let them out, then they will stay in hell forever. The point is we do not know. And since we do not know, it would be wrong to say hell is forever, and it would also be wrong to say hell is for a limited time. That's why, Allah knows best. Makes sense?

 

If that is the case, then the same would apply for the people of Paradise. And those who are blessed shall be in the Garden: They will dwell therein for all the time that the heavens and the earth endure, except as thy Lord willeth: a gift without break. However, Allah also says "But those who believe and do deeds of righteousness,- we shall soon admit them to gardens, with rivers flowing beneath,-to dwell therein for ever. Allah's promise is the truth, and whose word can be truer than Allah's? "[4:122] Therefore... we haven't had the correct understanding of the verse.

 

We have come to the conclusion that Allah knows best, and that should be sufficient for us both inshaAllah.

 

I am sorry if I have offended you in any way :sl:

 

Assalaamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh

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If that is the case, then the same would apply for the people of Paradise. And those who are blessed shall be in the Garden: They will dwell therein for all the time that the heavens and the earth endure, except as thy Lord willeth: a gift without break. However, Allah also says "But those who believe and do deeds of righteousness,- we shall soon admit them to gardens, with rivers flowing beneath,-to dwell therein for ever. Allah's promise is the truth, and whose word can be truer than Allah's? "[4:122] Therefore... we haven't had the correct understanding of the verse.

 

We have come to the conclusion that Allah knows best, and that should be sufficient for us both inshaAllah.

 

I am sorry if I have offended you in any way :sl:

 

Assalaamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh

Thank you brother, I am very happy that we both learned through this. This is what this forum is really about, to learn and grow together.

 

You are right, Allah knows best.

 

There is something that is in this verse that I feel is small, but very very important, and I would like to point this out.

 

Abdel Haleem, Hud, 11:106-108

 

"The wretched ones will be in the Fire, signing and groaning, there to remain for as long as the heavens and earth endure, unless your Lord wills otherwise: your Lord carries out whatever He wills. As for those who have been blessed, they will be in Paradise, there to remain as long as the heavens and earth endure, unless your Lord will otherwise - an unceasing gift."

 

Look at what is in bold. Notice that when describing Hell, God only says..."your Lord carries out whatever He wills".

 

But when God is describing Heaven, God says..."unless your Lord will otherwise - an unceasing gift." Here, God adds in "an unceasing gift". But when describing Hell, God does not add in "an unceasing punishment". Now why is that?

 

This is a very small but very important difference. It is suggesting that God's mercy is greater than his punishment. It is suggesting, however lightly, that God may end Hell, but he is likely to let Heaven last forever.

 

Now, we know the Qur'an says that those who do evil will get exactly what they deserve, not any less and not any more. But those who do good, will get many times the reward. So God's mercy is much great than his punishment. And finally, God describes himself as All-merciful. All this is suggesting that God's mercy will be greater than his punishment. And so, he may end hell, but may not end heaven - "an unceasing gift"; because God did not add "an unceasing punishment".

 

It's a small but important difference, and I thought I should point it out.

 

However, we do not really know and, Allah knows best.

 

Peace.

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asa yes Allahs mercy out does his wrath it is clear that hell is not forever and if Allah wills heaven can not be forever He does whatevre he pleases. Take note that a hour in hell is like an eternity also in the verse it said as long as the heavens and earth endures. We could have hell right here on earth and heaven right here on earth if you understand what its saying. If you are in a hell in this life then Allah can save you and open your heart to Islam and bring you to a heaven a garden of bliss, and when you die that garden will be everlasting and better.If Allah lets you go astray you can be in hell in this life and when you die you can end up in hell but the fact that Allah can lead you out is showing his mercy. How you leave this life is how you will be raised in the next if you die a hell ridden person then you have prepared to go to hell in your preveious lif and if you die a good person getting the good in this life but wanting the paradise then you have prpared for yourself to go to heaven

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Salaam,

 

Some noteworthy tafsir below.

 

The Condition of the Wretched People and their Destination

 

Allah, the Exalted, says,

 

[áóåõãú ÃöíåóÇ ÒóÃöíÑñ æóÔóåöíÞñ]

 

(in it they will experience Zafir and Shahiq.) Ibn `Abbas said, "Az-Zafir is a sound in the throat and Ash-Shahiq is a sound in the chest. This means that their exhaling will be Zafir and their inhaling will Shahiq.'' This will be due to the torment that they will be experiencing. We seek refuge with Allah from such evil.

 

[ÎóÜáöÃöíäó ÃöíåóÇ ãóÇ ÃóÇãóÊö ÇáÓøóãóÜæóÊõ æóÇáÇøñÑúÖõ]

 

(They will dwell therein for all the time that the heavens and the earth endure,) Imam Abu Ja`far bin Jarir said, "It was from the customs of the Arabs that when they wanted to describe something that would last forever, they would say, `This is as enduring as the heavens and the earth.' Or, `It will last as until the night and day separate.' They would say, `As long as talkers at night continue to chat.' They meant by these statements the condition of eternity. Therefore, Allah addressed them in a manner that they were familiar with among themselves. Thus, He said,

 

[ÎóÜáöÃöíäó ÃöíåóÇ ãóÇ ÃóÇãóÊö ÇáÓøóãóÜæóÊõ æóÇáÇøñÑúÖõ]

 

(They will dwell therein for all the time that the heavens and the earth endure,) The literal meaning is also intended with; "for all the time that the heavens and the earth endure.'' This is due to the fact that there will be heavens and earth in the life of the next world, just as Allah said,

 

[íóæúãó ÊõÈóÃøóáõ ÇáÇøñÑúÖõ ÛóíúÑó ÇáÇøñÑúÖö æóÇáÓøóãóÜæóÊõ]

 

(On the Day when the earth will be changed to another earth and so will be the heavens.) [14:48] For this reason, Al-Hasan Al-Basri said concerning the statement of Allah,

 

[ãóÇ ÃóÇãóÊö ÇáÓøóãóÜæóÊõ æóÇáÇøñÑúÖõ]

 

(the heavens and the earth endure.) "Allah is referring to a heaven other than this heaven (which we see now) and an earth other than this earth. That (new) heaven and earth will be eternal.'' Concerning Allah's statement,

 

[ÅöáÇøó ãóÇ ÔóÂÃó ÑóÈøõßó Åöäøó ÑóÈøóßó ÃóÚøóÇáñ áøöãóÇ íõÑöíÃõ]

 

(except as your Lord wills. Verily, your Lord is the doer of whatsoever He intends.) This is similar to His statement,

 

[ÇáäøóÇÑõ ãóËúæóÇßõãú ÎóÜáöÃöíäó Ãöíåó ÅöáÇøó ãóÇ ÔóÂÃó Çááøóåõ Åöäøó ÑóÈøóßó Ãóßöíãñ Úóáöíãñ]

 

(The Fire be your dwelling place, you will dwell therein forever, except as Allah may will. Certainly your Lord is All-Wise, All-Knowing.) [6:128] It has been said that the exception mentioned in this verse refers to the disobedient among the people of Tawhid. It is these whom Allah will bring out of the Fire by the intercession of the interceders. Those who will be allowed to intercede are the angels, the Prophets and the believers. They will intercede even on behalf of those who committed major sins. Then, the generous mercy of Allah will remove from the Fire those who have never done any good, except for saying La ilaha illallah one day of their life. This has been mentioned in numerous authentic reports from the Messenger of Allah , including narrations from Anas bin Malik, Jabir bin `Abdullah, Abu Sa`id Al-Khudri, Abu Hurayrah and other Companions. No one remains in the Fire after this final intercession, except those who will remain there forever without escape. This is the opinion held by many of the scholars, both past and present, concerning the explanation of this verse.

 

[æóÃóãøóÇ ÇáøóÃöíäó ÓõÚöÃõæÇú ÃóÃöì ÇáúÌóäøóÉö ÎóÜáöÃöíäó ÃöíåóÇ ãóÇ ÃóÇãóÊö ÇáÓøóãóÜæóÊõ æóÇáÇøñÑúÖõ ÅöáÇøó ãóÇ ÔóÂÃó ÑóÈøõßó ÚóØóÂÃð ÛóíúÑó ãóÌúÃõæÃò ]

 

(108. And those who are blessed, they will be in Paradise, abiding therein for all the time that the heavens and the earth endure, except as your Lord wills: a gift without an end.)

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"(The Fire be your dwelling place, you will dwell therein forever, except as Allah may will. Certainly your Lord is All-Wise, All-Knowing.) [6:128] It has been said that the exception mentioned in this verse refers to the disobedient among the people of Tawhid. It is these whom Allah will bring out of the Fire by the intercession of the interceders. Those who will be allowed to intercede are the angels, the Prophets and the believers. They will intercede even on behalf of those who committed major sins. Then, the generous mercy of Allah will remove from the Fire those who have never done any good, except for saying La ilaha illallah one day of their life. This has been mentioned in numerous authentic reports from the Messenger of Allah , including narrations from Anas bin Malik, Jabir bin `Abdullah, Abu Sa`id Al-Khudri, Abu Hurayrah and other Companions. No one remains in the Fire after this final intercession, except those who will remain there forever without escape. This is the opinion held by many of the scholars, both past and present, concerning the explanation of this verse."

 

Good tafsir Joseph...and could very well be. Then again, maybe not. The point I'm really trying to make is this:

 

It has been, from what I can see, the prevelant and unquestioned view by Muslims that Hell in eternity is forever - as if it is a given. End of discussion. Well, if nothing else, I think I've raised some legitimate points that may challenge this view.

 

The safest statement may be to say "Allah knows best" rather than claim we know God's will by taking a definitive stand, one way or the other.

 

So, by God's grace, I've learned something by posting this topic. At the start of this discussion, my position was that Hell is almost definitely for a limited time. Now, it is 'we don't know, and, 'Allah knows best'. The one thing I do know is that God is the best of judges, and He will not judge unfairly. So whatever the case may be, whether Hell is for eternity or for a limited time, no one will be wronged in the least. And, at the end of the day, that's probably most important of all.

 

I would also like to make a formal apology to sister Redeem, Aamina, Haqqul_Yaqeen, as well as brother Joseph for unfairly suggesting they conveniently did not respond to my earlier posts. It is true that we can never know what the other side is facing. I would like to thank brother Yusha Isra'eel and sister Aamina for pointing this out to me in the most delicate of ways.

 

Peace be upon all of you,

 

Odobknarf

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Salaam,

 

No need to apologize. It was actually rather rude for others like myself for leaving you hanging here.

 

The one reason I delayed a response is because I sent a message to SunniPath regarding disbelief and the eternity of Hell. They haven't answered me yet, but one thing's for sure - they had probably never encountered such a question before. That's not to say they are clueless about it, but I'm eagerly anticipating their reply.

 

Regards,

 

Joseph

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:sl:

 

It has been, from what I can see, the prevelant and unquestioned view by Muslims that Hell in eternity is forever - as if it is a given. End of discussion. Well, if nothing else, I think I've raised some legitimate points that may challenge this view.

 

odobknarf, I don't mean to sound rude, but I'm going to be completely honest wih you...I don't think you have made a legitimate point at all. The reason Muslims do not question this, is because there is more evidence which suggests that Hell is eternal, opposed to Hell being limited. That's not to say Allah cannot take everyone out of the Fire.. no one is arguing this, because ofcourse He can. Just as He can also take everyone out of Paradise and into the Fire... but we cannot make assumptions like you are making.

 

I think this is only one issue you haven't understood, and I expect to see more threads like this from you.

 

I would like to ask you one question, do you pray the five obligatory prayers? If yes, how.

 

I hope you don't take my question the wrong way brother :sl:

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:sl:

 

This is for those other than odobknarf, those who do not reject hadith. I want there to be no confusion caused by this topic.

 

There is no basis that Hell is limited, the evidence points towards Hell being eternal. The verses given should be sufficient, but here are a few hadiths which confirm what the majority of scholars believe (Hell is eternal).

 

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: Allah's Apostle said, "On the Day of Resurrection Death will be brought forward in the shape of a black and white ram. Then a call maker will call, 'O people of Paradise!' Thereupon they will stretch their necks and look carefully. The caller will say, 'Do you know this?' They will say, 'Yes, this is Death.' By then all of them will have seen it. Then it will be announced again, 'O people of Hell !' They will stretch their necks and look carefully. The caller will say, 'Do you know this?' They will say, 'Yes, this is Death.' And by then all of them will have seen it. Then it (that ram) will be slaughtered and the caller will say, 'O people of Paradise! eternity for you and no death O people of Hell! eternity for you and no death."' Then the Prophet, recited:-- 'And warn them of the Day of distress when the case has been decided, while (now) they are in a state of carelessness (i.e. the people of the world) and they do not believe.' [sahih Bukhari]

 

It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) observed: He who killed himself with steel (weapon) would be the eternal denizen of the Fire of Hell and he would have that weapon in his hand and would be thrusting that in his stomach for ever and ever, he who drank poison and killed himself would sip that in the Fire of Hell where he is doomed for ever and ever; and he who killed himself by falling from (the top of) a mountain would constantly fall in the Fire of Hell and would live there for ever and ever. [sahih Muslim]

 

Narrated Anas: The Prophet said, "Allah will gather the believers on the Day of Resurrection in the same way (as they are gathered in this life), and they will say, 'Let us ask someone to intercede for us with our Lord that He may relieve us from this place of ours.' Then they will go to Adam and say, 'O Adam! Don't you see the people (people's condition)? Allah created you with His Own Hands and ordered His angels to prostrate before you, and taught you the names of all the things. Please intercede for us with our Lord so that He may relieve us from this place of ours.' Adam will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking' and mention to them the mistakes he had committed, and add, "But you d better go to Noah as he was the first Apostle sent by Allah to the people of the Earth.' They will go to Noah who will reply, 'I am not fit for this undertaking,' and mention the mistake which he made, and add, 'But you'd better go to Abraham, Khalil Ar-Rahman.' They will go to Abraham who will reply, 'I am not fit for this undertaking,' and mention to them the mistakes he made, and add, 'But you'd better go to Moses, a slave whom Allah gave the Torah and to whom He spoke directly' They will go to Moses who will reply, 'I am not fit for this undertaking,' and mention to them the mistakes he made, and add, 'You'd better go to Jesus, Allah's slave and His Apostle and His Word (Be: And it was) and a soul created by Him.' They will go to Jesus who will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking, but you'd better go to Muhammad whose sins of the past and the future had been forgiven (by Allah).' So they will come to me and I will ask the permission of my Lord, and I will be permitted (to present myself) before Him. When I see my Lord, I will fall down in (prostration) before Him and He will leave me (in prostration) as long as He wishes, and then it will be said to me, 'O Muhammad! Raise your head and speak, for you will be listened to; and ask, for you will be granted (your request); and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted.' I will then raise my head and praise my Lord with certain praises which He has taught me, and then I will intercede. Allah will allow me to intercede (for a certain kind of people) and will fix a limit whom I will admit into Paradise. I will come back again, and when I see my Lord (again), I will fall down in prostration before Him, and He will leave me (in prostration) as long as He wishes, and then He will say, 'O Muhammad! Raise your head and speak, for you will be listened to; and ask, for you will be granted (your request); and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted.' I will then praise my Lord with certain praises which He has taught me, and then I will intercede. Allah will allow me to intercede (for a certain kind of people) and will fix a limit to whom I will admit into Paradise, I will return again, and when I see my Lord, I will fall down (in prostration) and He will leave me (in prostration) as long as He wishes, and then He will say, 'O Muhammad! Raise your head and speak, for you will be listened to, and ask, for you will be granted (your request); and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted.' I will then praise my Lord with certain praises which He has taught me, and then I will intercede. Allah will allow me to intercede (for a certain kind of people) and will fix a limit to whom I will admit into Paradise. I will come back and say, 'O my Lord! None remains in Hell (Fire) but those whom Qur'an has imprisoned therein and for whom eternity in Hell (Fire) has become inevitable.' " The Prophet added, "There will come out of Hell (Fire) everyone who says: 'La ilaha illal-lah,' and has in his heart good equal to the weight of a barley grain. Then there will come out of Hell (Fire) everyone who says: ' La ilaha illal-lah,' and has in his heart good equal to the weight of a wheat grain. Then there will come out of Hell (Fire) everyone who says: 'La ilaha illal-lah,' and has in his heart good equal to the weight of an atom (or a smallest ant)." [sahih Bukhari]

 

Bare in mind, believing Hell is limited will bring ignorant people to be careless, so I wouldn't entertain this idea at all.

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