Jump to content
Islamic Forum
Odobknarf

Is Hell In Islam Eternal?

Recommended Posts

Salaam

'Muhammad Qadir'

 

Brother, in your posts especially the last one you sound incrediable rude, moreover arrogant of the truth, moreover boastful and completely unaware of the fact you're no scholar therefore to band yourself with them it's just unacceptable and most of all so irritating, so for the sake of Allah quite the manner!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

May Allah bless you and guide you to the truth.

 

Ma salaama

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PropellerAds

:sl:

 

Ok sister. Could you please show me where I have stated that I am a scholar or even hinted such a thing?

Edited by Muhammad Qadir

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
:sl:

 

Ok sister. Could you please show me where I have stated that I am a scholar or even hinted such a thing?

 

I recall you saying that Allah has put a veil over my eyes - I guess this applies for every single scholar of Islam since they share the same opinion...

 

This shows that you haven't shown him any of all those opinions,so you can say all but moreover you say it like if it's clear fact "EVERY SCHOLAR" and "SAME OPINION". Also whole thing hints with your harsh words like if you know it all and it should be taken from you.

 

but this rings in my ear all the time.

 

..................The reason I have given you the time of day,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Harsh

....................WHO DO YOU EXACTLY THINK YOU ARE?..................Extra harsh, Extra...Extra...

 

 

I AM UNSURE IN WERE I STILL STAND ON THIS TOPIC IAM STILL GATHERING MY OWN INFO SO NONE WHAT I SAID IMPLIES THAT I AGREE WITH ANY, THAT BEEN SAID, I WOULD LIKE TO ADVISE ALL TO TO GATHER THEIR INFO FROM GOOD SOURCES IT CONFUSED WHEN I READ THESE REPLIES SO MUCH THAT I HAVE NEVER BEEN CONFUSED SO MUCH IN ANY OTHER TOPIC CONCERNING RELIGION THEREFORE THIS SHOULD STAND AS A CLEAR ADVISE TO ALL.

 

 

Brother sorry for any pain caused but i thought of helping you look more advanced in replies, not offend you, you sound like a good person so represent your real self please.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

:sl:

 

This shows that you haven't shown him any of all those opinions,so you can say all but moreover you say it like if it's clear fact "EVERY SCHOLAR" and "SAME OPINION". Also whole thing hints with your harsh words like if you know it all and it should be taken from you.

 

The majority of scholars agree that Hell is eternal, this is a fact. So if he is saying I am mistaken, then he is saying the majority of scholars are mistaken because I got my information from the scholars.

 

but this rings in my ear all the time.

 

..................The reason I have given you the time of day,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Harsh

....................WHO DO YOU EXACTLY THINK YOU ARE?..................Extra harsh, Extra...Extra...

 

I am sorry if I sounded harsh, I guess it's a little bit upsetting when you spend hours trying to answer someones question and that person rejects it. I don't think you understand that the overwhelming evidence in the Quran, the Hadith, and the scholars, is being ignored by this brother which is a serious matter.

 

Brother sorry for any pain caused but i thought of helping you look more advanced in replies, not offend you, you sound like a good person so represent your real self please.

 

No need to apologize I'm used to it. I ask for Allah's forgiveness if I have done any injustice to anyone here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
:sl:

Salaam

Thanks a lot brother you calmed me by explaining. I was aware of your side of the argument brother and that's what I thought at first but like I said I am going to do my own research to set my confused mind aside. After all we're not supposed to rely on others concerning our belief we should always double check. Anyways I completely understand your point now, and thanks for giving a heed to my advice. I appreciate it a lot brother.

 

Ma salama

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
:sl:

I got my information from the scholars.

 

:sl:

 

Same here, but I didn't wanted to countinue discussing this topic with Brother odobknarf.

You continued discussing it, and see what happened...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
:sl:

 

Same here, but I didn't wanted to countinue discussing this topic with Brother odobknarf.

You continued discussing it, and see what happened...

??...why not sister??... :sl:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
??...why not sister??... :sl:

 

Same outcome would have happened, which just did between you and Brother M. Qadir. He didn’t even wanted to dwell on this topic in the first place. Oh well...

Edited by Hira (Devout)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Slamz

Same here, but I didn't wanted to countinue discussing this topic with Brother odobknarf.

You continued discussing it, and see what happened...

If I get this correctly then according to Islamic scholars, there is such thing as thrown in hell for eternity.

IMO... we shouldn't feel restricted to avoid contravesrsial issues to gain better understanding in fear of a possible dispute.

I know there is big difference between scholars and layman...still they are human and prone to human error/bias.

Why treat their word as written in stone especially if lots of time they don't even agree on the same issue.

I mean bilologically speaking there is more or less no difference in intelligence levels, unless to be a scholar a particular IQ is required. I am not even sure what is the formal criteria to become a muslim scholar. Matter fact if any one knows then please let me know the required criteria to become a muslim scholar..example.. like does one need to memorizing the Quran, or have a degree in Islamic studies or a thesis etc.

(now here is a fresh idea for new reality series.."Who wants to be the top Scholar" :sl: )

 

Peace

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Slamz If I get this correctly then according to Islamic scholars, there is such thing as thrown in hell for eternity.

IMO... we shouldn't feel restricted to avoid contravesrsial issues to gain better understanding in fear of a possible dispute.

I know there is big difference between scholars and layman...still they are human and prone to human error/bias.

Why treat their word as written in stone especially if lots of time they don't even agree on the same issue.

I mean bilologically speaking there is more or less no difference in intelligence levels, unless to be a scholar a particular IQ is required. I am not even sure what is the formal criteria to become a muslim scholar. Matter fact if any one knows then please let me know the required criteria to become a muslim scholar..example.. like does one need to memorizing the Quran, or have a degree in Islamic studies or a thesis etc.

(now here is a fresh idea for new reality series.."Who wants to be the top Scholar" )

 

Peace

 

Islamic Scholars have studied Islam almost all their lives, and they have a better understanding of Islam than a non Islamic Scholar would.

As for the criteria of an Islamic Scholar, then (like you said) they have to do Islamic studies which include studying about Hadith, Aqīdah (Islamic Doctrine), Mantiq (Logic), Mīrāth (Inheritance Laws), Fiqh (Islamic Jurisprudence), Usūl al-Fiqh (Principles of Jurisprudence), and many more. And of course memorizing the Al-Qur'an, learning its Tafseer, backround information, all that good stuff. They have to do all that studying to become "Islamic Scholars". So as for them saying Hell is eternal then, I will take their word for it, because that's not their opinion, they studied Islam, they know what Islam says about Hell.

 

Peace Out

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Islamic Scholars have studied Islam almost all their lives, and they have a better understanding of Islam than a non Islamic Scholar would.

As for the criteria of an Islamic Scholar, then (like you said) they have to do Islamic studies which include studying about Hadith, Aqīdah (Islamic Doctrine), Mantiq (Logic), Mīrāth (Inheritance Laws), Fiqh (Islamic Jurisprudence), Usūl al-Fiqh (Principles of Jurisprudence), and many more. And of course memorizing the Al-Qur'an, learning its Tafseer, backround information, all that good stuff.

So I am thinking that there is like a university for that? know any good ones by chance that also admit foreigners ?

Didn't know hifz is a requirement also.. R U sure ? :sl:

 

They have to do all that studying to become "Islamic Scholars". So as for them saying Hell is eternal then, I will take their word for it, because that's not their opinion, they studied Islam, they know what Islam says about Hell.

True, the problem remains that they often disagree...whats up with that?

If a scholar feels hellfire is eternal , he may know better... then again he should also be able to provide the reason why that is so. We don't need to be a scholar to understand that reason, so why is their word taboo?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
AA reincarnated,

 

Sorry chief...wouldn't be much of a debate. One of the reasons God is All-Merciful is that in Islam, we believe all human beings can be forgiven, until their dying day, no matter what their sins - directly and without an intercessor - if they sincerely repent and believe in God. So, you could be 60 years old and committed a lifetime of evil, and if you did the math, you would never have enough years left to recover even if you became an angel; you would be doomed for hell. But God, in his mercy, doesn't allow this to be a factor, he extends his mercy throughout your lifetime; he forgives you of your worst of sins and rewards you according to the best of your deeds - provided you sincerely repent and believe before you die.

 

Peace.

 

But my friend, we are not arguing about the same thing, you are saying that god can redeem evil, well Newton said anything with god is possible, and some have argued that metaphysically all truths are contingent and that it’s only out of an epistemological necessity that there exist necessary truth , so god redeeming your evil does not equal you having the capacity of redeeming evil , an example of an evil that you cannot redeem is the act of killing , whatever you do you cannot bring the dead to life ( god can) , killing is only a peculiar sort of evil , others sorts may include psychological torturing which caused jean Paul Sartre to brand hell as being the other people , this being said not acknowledging god is not letting him redeem what you have done .

 

Peace and love :sl:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So I am thinking that there is like a university for that? know any good ones by chance that also admit foreigners ?

Didn't know hifz is a requirement also.. R U sure ? :sl:

 

Here since I am planning on attending an Islamic University, I'll name few Universities in the US. There's Institute for Islamic Education in IL, Islamic American University in Michigan.

Hifz, I didn't mean it as an requirement, but its a good thing if an Islamic scholar does it!

 

True, the problem remains that they often disagree...whats up with that?

If a scholar feels hellfire is eternal , he may know better... then again he should also be able to provide the reason why that is so. We don't need to be a scholar to understand that reason, so why is their word taboo?

 

See if this answers your questions:

 

The differences which talked about are minor and not major differences [or are not severe differences]. All `ulema unanimously agree on the primary issues i.e. the Furu-e Deen. There are also no differences in the method of reciting the salah, timings of the fast, performing ablutions, method of performing the hajj and so on.

 

The differences in rulings arise in the minute details of these fundamental issues due to the complexities involved. This is because of:

1) Contradictory traditions - Sometimes we ourselves see that there are a number of traditions which apparently contradict each other. This could be due to: a} dissimulation and b} traditions narrated for specific purpose/person. It is the duty of the `ulema to research the circumstances and the situations in which the traditions were narrated and accordingly derive the ruling.

 

For instance: Some `ulema may consider a tradition meant for a specific purpose to be general and vice-verse and this leads to discrepancy.

 

2) Differences in chain of narrators - One good thing about Shi'a fiqh is that it is always open for research. Because of this, it does not become stagnant and our fiqh evolves from time to time keeping in view of the Holy Qur'an and the teachings of the Ahle Bayt [as].

 

Even though Ilm-e-Rijal is an integral part of Ijtihad, the scholars may have varied opinions about some particular narrators. For example, while one group of scholars may consider a narrator to be reliable and trustworthy based on the proofs which they have gathered, another group may not, based on the proof which they have collected. This again creates a difference.

 

3) Differences in comprehending a concept - Since every mujtahid cannot or does not think in the same way, there are bound to be discrepancies in understanding a particular concept underlying the traditions. We, ourselves, may have contrary views about a particular tradition because the understanding of each person is different.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

:sl:

 

Differences in chain of narrators - One good thing about Shi'a fiqh is that it is always open for research. Because of this, it does not become stagnant and our fiqh evolves from time to time keeping in view of the Holy Qur'an and the teachings of the Ahle Bayt [as].

 

Was that unintentional, or are you a Shi'a?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
But my friend, we are not arguing about the same thing, you are saying that god can redeem evil, well Newton said anything with god is possible, and some have argued that metaphysically all truths are contingent and that it’s only out of an epistemological necessity that there exist necessary truth , so god redeeming your evil does not equal you having the capacity of redeeming evil , an example of an evil that you cannot redeem is the act of killing , whatever you do you cannot bring the dead to life ( god can) , killing is only a peculiar sort of evil , others sorts may include psychological torturing which caused jean Paul Sartre to brand hell as being the other people , this being said not acknowledging god is not letting him redeem what you have done .

 

Peace and love :sl:

 

...so let me get this straight, you want to discuss the concept of evil being unredeemable in the absence of God. How is that possible considering the concept of evil only exists as a result of God. Without God, there is no such thing as evil. In a secular society, for example, you will not find anything in any law books that talk about a person being evil, like "killing someone is an evil act". Legal language is more likely to say "murder is against the law". Evil doesn't exist outside of God, so to discuss the concept in absence of His presence is impossible. And to discuss it in His presence, means it is redeemable.

 

reincarnated, I responded to your post out of courtesy. What I'm about to say isn't directed to you per se. It is a general conclusion I've reached which applies to me, and may not apply to others. If I was a university student, and wanted to bash out hypothetical 'what ifs', this is a great place to do it. But I'm not, I'm 42 and I've been around the block.

 

Islam, fundamentally, is a practical religion. And it wants you to do things that really help people. I just don't think I'm really doing that here, or at least not when I engage in 'what ifs'. I haven't yet studied the hadith, but I can't imagine the prophet Muhammad engaged in these types of philosophical debates. He was too busy trying to do God's work in a very practical way. The homeless person down the street isn't going to benefit a whole lot while I'm discussing metaphysics. For these reasons, I've more or less had my fill with these types of discussions; so please do not be offended.

 

If you read some of my other threads, you may notice that I have virtually implored people to talk about things that may result in actions that can help people. Sister Aamina does a good job of that. The idea I really have is to start some sort of grassroots movement amongst Muslims, where we take back our true religion, and start changing the way we behave and lead by example. Sadly, I don't think I've lived up to my own mantra. I've outlined my philosophy in the Political Front, Zionism; why is it really even a Concern? This is just an idea right now...and it will probably die as one.

 

Sorry to digress, good luck with whoever wants to continue with your debate suggestion.

 

Peace.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
:sl:

Was that unintentional, or are you a Shi'a?

 

:sl:

 

I'm neither a Shi'a nor a Sunni, I am a Muslimah!

And I quoted that information, I didn't wrote it.

Edited by Hira (Devout)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dear odobknarf ,

I understand your lack of enthusiasm for arguing, and honestly I ascribe to “To you be your Way, and to me mineâ€(109,6) , hence I will abide to your wish and only correct a small misunderstanding that occurred between us , it’s not about the absence of god , it’s about the absence of faith ,you cannot undo what you have done nor its consequences , God can :

3:135 and those who, having done something to be ashamed of, or wronged their own souls, earnestly bring Allah to mind, and ask for forgiveness for their sins; and who can forgive sins except Allah? And are never obstinate in persisting knowingly in (the wrong) they have done.

8:29 O ye who believe! If ye keep your duty to Allah, He will give you discrimination (between right and wrong) and will rid you of your evil thoughts and deeds, and will forgive you. Allah is of Infinite Bounty.

Anyway thank you for your advices and thought, it was really fruitful discussing with you, I will just add a final surah which reinforce what you said:

98, (1->5)

those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, were not going to depart (from their ways) until there should come to them clear Evidence, A Messenger from Allah, rehearsing scriptures kept pure and holy: Wherein are laws (or decrees) right and straight. Nor did the People of the Book make schisms, until after there came to them Clear Evidence. And they have been commanded no more than this: to worship Allah, offering Him sincere devotion, being True (in faith); to establish regular Prayer; and to practice regular Charity; and that is the Religion right and Straight.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

salamz

See if this answers your questions:

Well I meant the question in rhetorical sense.

Let me summarize the convo that's relevnat to this topic

We are discussing if hell is eternal or not.

According to you we shouldn't discuss it because according to scholars it is eternal.

My point was...scholars base their decision on Quran and Hadith, so if we are discussing it based on those two, why not?

I mean the scholars are perhaps more qualified becaus they learn fiqh and all the good stuff, but while we may not be able to draw infererences, we are well capable of understanding. So we should be abl eto understand why scholars feel hell is eternal. Perhaps their decision is based on particular verse(s) or hadith(s) or combination of both, it' snot like they are superhumans with knowledge or inferencial techniques far beyond average human mind.

 

Here since I am planning on attending an Islamic University, I'll name few Universities in the US. There's Institute for Islamic Education in IL, Islamic American University in Michigan.

Thx..I checked their homepages and though it talks about the corriculum and credit requirement , it doesn't talk about a formal degree. I'm still confused about what kind of fromal degree it requires to be a scholar. Like for p.h.d u need a publication, a book thesis, to be a doctor u need 2 year residency or something etc ...what's the formal requirement to be a scholar? Like if I take the 66 credit cources at the michigan universaity,I will be officially a scholar once I complete? Since it's off topic u can pm me the info if u know off hand or a have a few mins to spare.

peace

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

:sl:

My point was...scholars base their decision on Quran and Hadith, so if we are discussing it based on those two, why not?

I mean the scholars are perhaps more qualified becaus they learn fiqh and all the good stuff, but while we may not be able to draw infererences, we are well capable of understanding. So we should be abl eto understand why scholars feel hell is eternal. Perhaps their decision is based on particular verse(s) or hadith(s) or combination of both, it' snot like they are superhumans with knowledge or inferencial techniques far beyond average human mind.

 

llogical, we all do understand that hell is eternal. The majority of Muslims understand that hell is eternal. If you look at my previous posts you can see the proof that hell is eternal. I have provided evidence from the Quran, hadith, and from the scholars. As you can see, odobknarf, has not.

 

This isn't a topic which NEEDS to be discussed, this is like discussing whether prayer is obligatory... there is no need for it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
salamz

 

Well I meant the question in rhetorical sense.

Let me summarize the convo that's relevnat to this topic

We are discussing if hell is eternal or not.

According to you we shouldn't discuss it because according to scholars it is eternal.

My point was...scholars base their decision on Quran and Hadith, so if we are discussing it based on those two, why not?

I mean the scholars are perhaps more qualified becaus they learn fiqh and all the good stuff, but while we may not be able to draw infererences, we are well capable of understanding. So we should be abl eto understand why scholars feel hell is eternal. Perhaps their decision is based on particular verse(s) or hadith(s) or combination of both, it' snot like they are superhumans with knowledge or inferencial techniques far beyond average human mind.

 

As Brother M. Qadir already pointed out, it is already been declared by the scholars and majority of the Muslims that hell is eternal (by proof), so there is no need of discussing it any further. And I’m not going to waste my time on it either.

Edited by Hira (Devout)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dear odobknarf ,

I understand your lack of enthusiasm for arguing, and honestly I ascribe to “To you be your Way, and to me mineâ€(109,6) , hence I will abide to your wish and only correct a small misunderstanding that occurred between us , it’s not about the absence of god , it’s about the absence of faith ,you cannot undo what you have done nor its consequences , God can :

 

Anyway thank you for your advices and thought, it was really fruitful discussing with you, I will just add a final surah which reinforce what you said:

98, (1->5)

 

Thanks for understanding reincarnated...your selection of verses couldn't have been more appropriate.

 

Since however, I was the topic starter for this particular thread...it would appear I have some unfinished business to attend to. This is now a matter of principle.

 

Peace.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This isn't a topic which NEEDS to be discussed, this is like discussing whether prayer is obligatory... there is no need for it.

Right, there's no difference between the two. The 6 pillars of Islam are:

 

1. Shahadah

2. Salat

3. Zakat

4. Fasting in Ramadan

5. Hajj

6. Belief in eternal Hell.

 

Sorry, I must have missed the last one.

 

:sl:

llogical, we all do understand that hell is eternal. The majority of Muslims understand that hell is eternal. If you look at my previous posts you can see the proof that hell is eternal. I have provided evidence from the Quran, hadith, and from the scholars. As you can see, odobknarf, has not.

Riiiiiggghhhhtttt...You're ability to address my analysis, in an objective, rational, and reasonable manner remains unparalleled:

 

The reason I have given you the time of day is because I don't want your innovative way of thinking to catch on...who do you think you are exactly?

And the real issue in this topic:

 

As Brother M. Qadir already pointed out, it is already been declared by the scholars and majority of the Muslims that hell is eternal (by proof), so there is no need of discussing it any further...

Am I to understand, that if the Scholars agree on something as well as the majority of Muslims, this mean this topic is not up for debate; it is officially considered taboo, and any Muslim that wants to discuss this is not considered 'Muslim'?

 

And we wonder why the Islamic world has stagnated over the last 500 years, while the West has advanced in every conceivable area of human development. Wake up, take a look around, and get our of your myopic little closets.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Double Post

Edited by Hira (Devout)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Am I to understand, that if the Scholars agree on something as well as the majority of Muslims, this mean this topic is not up for debate; it is officially considered taboo, and any Muslim that wants to discuss this is not considered 'Muslim'?

 

And we wonder why the Islamic world has stagnated over the last 500 years, while the West has advanced in every conceivable area of human development. Wake up, take a look around, and get our of your myopic little closets.

 

 

:sl: Bro.

 

NOTICE I said BY PROOF, not OPINION! And the Scholars did provide proof...if you don't want to recognize that proof then, that's just YOU.

And Brother I didn't say that "any Muslim that wants to discuss this is not considered 'Muslim'" so dont accuse me of saying it, por favor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And Brother I didn't say that "any Muslim that wants to discuss this is not considered 'Muslim'" so dont accuse me of saying it, por favor.

Fair enough...that comment was directed more toward Muhammad Qadir by his insinuations:

 

I would like to ask you one question, do you pray the five obligatory prayers? If yes, how.

and in the same vain with you:

 

:sl:

Was that unintentional, or are you a Shi'a?

Who does he think he is?

 

:sl: Bro.

NOTICE I said BY PROOF, not OPINION! And the Scholars did provide proof...if you don't want to recognize that proof then, that's just YOU.

Alright, so if the Scholars provide proof then its off the table to discuss, but if they haven't, is it still 'allowed' by whoever has self-declared themselves to allow it? I just want to be clear on your position.

 

And, what is your definition of proof? A quotation by some scholar without an explanation or analysis? A complete by-pass on my analysis, as if I didn't even raise a point? Because that's what both of you have done. Now that's not proof, that's unsubstantiated assertions and dismissals, and a very shoddy basis for a discussion. A scholar is but a human being who has studied the topic, it doesn't mean he is God nor does it guarantee that he got it right. There are good doctors and bad doctors, good lawyers and lousy lawyer. One person's 'enlightened' scholar' is another person's misguided one.

 

Remember, as far as I'm concerned, this is the real discussion at hand; eternity in hell is but a side show.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×