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Odobknarf

Is Hell In Islam Eternal?

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Alright, so if the Scholars provide proof then its off the table to discuss, but if they haven't, is it still 'allowed' by whoever has self-declared themselves to allow it? I just want to be clear on your position.

Of course, if the Scholars have provided proof for a topic than there is no point of discussing it, or is there? And if they haven't provided a proof then yeah go ahead dicuss all you want.

 

And, what is your definition of proof? A quotation by some scholar without an explanation or analysis? A complete by-pass on my analysis, as if I didn't even raise a point? Because that's what both of you have done. Now that's not proof, that's unsubstantiated assertions and dismissals, and a very shoddy basis for a discussion. A scholar is but a human being who has studied the topic, it doesn't mean he is God nor does it guarantee that he got it right. There are good doctors and bad doctors, good lawyers and lousy lawyer. One person's 'enlightened' scholar' is another person's misguided one.

 

Remember, as far as I'm concerned, this is the real discussion at hand; eternity in hell is but a side show.

 

So, are you asking for a Scholar's explanation of why hell is eternal? And you feel I or Bro. M. Qadir still haven't provided it for you?

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So, are you asking for a Scholar's explanation of why hell is eternal? And you feel I or Bro. M. Qadir still haven't provided it for you?

Let's start with not dismissing the basis of my argument without at least acknowledging and addressing it. Notice how in each verse below, it only says "on that Day" or "the Day" or "Today", but doesn't say anything about what happens after that Day, as if to imply it is limited to that Day only.

 

37:33-39

 

"On that Day they will all share the torment: this is how we deal with the guilty...you will taste the painful torment, and be repaid only according to your deeds."

 

40:16-17

 

"the Day when they will come out...Today each soul will be rewarded for whatever it has done; today no injustice will be done. God is swift in reckoning."

 

45:34-35

 

"Today we shall ignore you just as you ignored your appointment with this Day...They will not be brought out of the Fire on that Day, nor will they be given the chance to make amends."

 

and 6:160

 

"whoever has done a good deed will have it ten times to his credit, but whoever has done a bad deed will be repaid only with its equivalent - they will not be wronged".

 

I really don't know how else to interpret 45:34-35 above except that after that Day, God is implying they will be let out of the Fire. Also, 6:160, God is showing His mercy is greater than his punishment. Since we live here for a certain amount of time, there is only so much evil you can really do in a lifetime. So when it says "whoever has done a bad deed will be repaid ony with its equivalent - they will not be wronged" combined with "they will not be brought out of the Fire on that Day". I mean I do have a mind you know, do you want me to stop using it just because everyone else says Hell is for forever?

As well as something I raised over 2 weeks ago, no one even bothered addressing it. Now that's intellectual dishonesty!

 

Abdel Haleem, 78:21-27

 

"Hell lies in wait, a home for oppressors to stay in for a long, long time, where they will taste no coolness nor drink except one that is scalding and dark - a fitting requital, for they did not fear a reckoning..."

 

Sister, I don't know how those number you have listed can be derived from this verse...maybe I'm not understanding something. If it has to do with strictly the Hadith...again you know my position on that. But either way, it is clear. This verse says "a long, long time." And even if the answer was 14Million, 400Thousand Years and not 50,000 years - it is still not forever.

 

Everything is pointing to a limited time period, however long it may be. Can anyone dispute this? Can anyone explain how "a long, long time" can be interpreted in any other way except that time in Hell is not forever? I would really appreciate it if you responded to this specific question. Can anyone explain, even if the Hadith is correct, how 14,400,000 years can be considered anything but a very long but limited time? And if you reject this Hadith, then on what basis do you accept other Hadith? Either way, there's some "splain'in to do."

If you want to have an honest debate, please address my points systematically, with analysis. Please don't just throw in pages of a scholar's work that do not specifically address my own points.

 

Thank you.

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:sl:

 

Right, there's no difference between the two. The 6 pillars of Islam are:

 

1. Shahadah

2. Salat

3. Zakat

4. Fasting in Ramadan

5. Hajj

6. Belief in eternal Hell.

 

Sorry, I must have missed the last one.

 

Trying to twist things again are we? When have I ever said that Hell being eternal is part of the 5 pillars of Islam? Or that denying Hell is eternal makes you a disbeliever? Also, is believing in the Day of Judgment part of the 5 pillars of Islam? ...yet you have to believe in the afterlife in order to be a Muslim.

 

Am I to understand, that if the Scholars agree on something as well as the majority of Muslims, this mean this topic is not up for debate; it is officially considered taboo, and any Muslim that wants to discuss this is not considered 'Muslim'?

 

There is sufficient proof in the Quran as to Hell being eternal, and in the hadith. The scholars use the Quran and the hadith to prove that Hell is eternal, they provide evidence, they do not follow their own opinion. Although, I can see why you find this difficult to understand, as you have already stated that you think the scholars are liars.

 

And we wonder why the Islamic world has stagnated over the last 500 years, while the West has advanced in every conceivable area of human development. Wake up, take a look around, and get our of your myopic little closets.

 

I think you saying this alone shows your ignorance. Stop comparing believers to disbelievers, I say alhamdulillah that we are not as "developed" as them and I say alhamdulillah we know who our Creator is. The reason we are in this current condition is because our priorities aren't in order. Our job is to worship Allah, not to get so attached to this dunya and compete with anyone. However "developed" you see these people as is nothing, if you don't know your Creator then you're not living. Our condition is because we have gone away from Islam, and we have become attached to the dunya... yet your preaching about "human development"? You keep talking about how we should "think for ourselves", but you don't realise what you are saying. There's a saying... "Do not put a question mark where Allah has put a full stop" Allah commands us to think and ponder, and question, but you're questioning HIM. I and others have given you sufficient proof from the Quran.

 

I would like to ask you one question, do you pray the five obligatory prayers? If yes, how.

 

Excuse me? I think you know the reason why I asked this. I asked this because you said that you don't like hadiths and find them funny... yet you pray according to them? Is this not hypocrisy I don't know what is.

 

And if you reject this Hadith, then on what basis do you accept other Hadith?

 

Who does he think he is?

 

I was asking the sister a question, I didn't mean anything by it. I just wanted to make sure she didn't do that unintentionally. She didn't have a problem with it, why should you?

 

Alright, so if the Scholars provide proof then its off the table to discuss, but if they haven't, is it still 'allowed' by whoever has self-declared themselves to allow it? I just want to be clear on your position.

 

The proof is from the Quran. You cannot QUESTION the Quran. You cannot question Allah. Not only are you questioning Allah but you are half quoting the Quran (Which is against the forum rules).

 

This thread isn't getting anywhere. I advise everyone not to post here anymore inshaAllah, we have said enough already.

Edited by Muhammad Qadir

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Let's start with not dismissing the basis of my argument without at least acknowledging and addressing it. Notice how in each verse below, it only says "on that Day" or "the Day" or "Today", but doesn't say anything about what happens after that Day, as if to imply it is limited to that Day only.

As well as something I raised over 2 weeks ago, no one even bothered addressing it. Now that's intellectual dishonesty!

If you want to have an honest debate, please address my points systematically, with analysis. Please don't just throw in pages of a scholar's work that do not specifically address my own points.

 

Thank you.

 

Why don't you refer to some Scholar's work, who has addressed the points you raised. Or do you think no Scholar have addressed those points?

Are you interested in knowing what people on this forum thinks what those Verses and Hadiths might mean. I mean seriously a person have to have some type of background information on this for him/her to be able to understand what those Verses and Hadiths REALLY mean. And I personally don't want to interpret these Hadiths and Verses because I don't have any background knowledge on them so I don't want to interpret anything wrong.

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If you want clarification on what you have mentioned go to the students of knowledge or to the scholars and stop debating with laymen.

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Trying to twist things again are we? When have I ever said that Hell being eternal is part of the 5 pillars of Islam?

The analogy is fairly obvious if you care to reason. You compared salat and this topic with the same weighting:

 

This isn't a topic which NEEDS to be discussed, this is like discussing whether prayer is obligatory... there is no need for it.

If you can't understand this simple analogy, how in the world are you going to even begin making sense of 'hell being eternal or a limited time'?

 

Or that denying Hell is eternal makes you a disbeliever?

I think we've coverd this. You convey this with your general tone; I don't think you want me to repost your offensive quotes, along with comments by Nash and Ramlah do you?

 

There is sufficient proof in the Quran as to Hell being eternal, and in the hadith. The scholars use the Quran and the hadith to prove that Hell is eternal, they provide evidence, they do not follow their own opinion. Although, I can see why you find this difficult to understand, as you have already stated that you think the scholars are liars.

I never once said they are liars, so don't put words in my mouth I never said, por favor. What I am saying is that Scholars are human beings, and are fallible like any human being. I am saying the arguments you have presented, whether hadith, scholars or whoever, have raised as many questions as answers.

 

I think you saying this alone shows your ignorance. Stop comparing believers to disbelievers...

Why? In the past 500 years, it is the disbelievers who we have allowed to oppress us, by our own ignorance and short sightedness. It is the disbelievers who have harnessed God's laws - and all that God has made for the benefit of mankind - far better than we have. In this regard, we have a lot to learn from the 'disbelievers'.

 

...I say alhamdulillah that we are not as "developed" as them...

And this is why we throw rocks while they fire missiles.

 

This is exactly the kind of thinking that got us to where we are now. This is exactly what I am standing up against. This, my dear brothers and sisters, this mentality is the real evil. This is what we must rise up against. The fight is actually on the inside, not the outside. The fight is within our own Ummah, not from without. If we don't repel this kind of backward mentality, we will never be able to defend ourselves, and will never be able to contribute to this world. If ever there was a cause to unite and rise against -this is it!

 

and I say alhamdulillah we know who our Creator is. The reason we are in this current condition is because our priorities aren't in order. Our job is to worship Allah, not to get so attached to this dunya and compete with anyone. However "developed" you see these people as is nothing, if you don't know your Creator then you're not living. Our condition is because we have gone away from Islam, and we have become attached to the dunya... yet your preaching about "human development"?

Since when is remembering God and developing ourselves two separate things? On the contrary, they are part and parcel of the same thing; and when done with the right understanding, one helps and reinforces the other. God says to seek help through steadfastness and prayer; not just steadfastness and not just prayer. And God says he does not change the condition of a people unless they first change it for themselves. How can we do that unless we strive to develop ourselves while at the same time remembering God in our work and in our daily activities. Prayer is obligatory; but it is only one of the means to achieve the continuous remembrance of God, which is the real goal.

 

You keep talking about how we should "think for ourselves", but you don't realise what you are saying. There's a saying... "Do not put a question mark where Allah has put a full stop" Allah commands us to think and ponder, and question, but you're questioning HIM. I and others have given you sufficient proof from the Quran.

I am not questioning God; quite the opposite - I am trying to understand what He means. Hell may very well be for eternity, I do not discount that possibility and I am open to it. You however, have sealed your ears and closed your eyes; you prefer to throw rocks while we get attacked by missiles.

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Excuse me? I think you know the reason why I asked this. I asked this because you said that you don't like hadiths and find them funny... yet you pray according to them? Is this not hypocrisy I don't know what is.

In other posts, I have openly credited this forum for my growth and appreciation for the hadith. However, this was not hypocritical. My initial view on the hadith was to reference them when the Qur'an tells us to do something, but doesn't say how - like how to do the 5 obligatory prayers or how to properly perform Hajj rituals.

 

The proof is from the Quran. You cannot QUESTION the Quran. You cannot question Allah. Not only are you questioning Allah but you are half quoting the Quran (Which is against the forum rules).

I am quoting what is relevant, just like most people; otherwise the posts would be a page long unto themselves; and no, they are not out of context.

 

This thread isn't getting anywhere. I advise everyone not to post here anymore inshaAllah, we have said enough already.

On the contrary, this thread has opened up the root issue. We have a choice, let the Muslim world suffer in pain and humiliation – or - rise up, learn, grow, and seek God's good pleasure.

 

And finally,

 

If you want to have an honest debate, please address my points systematically, with analysis. Please don't just throw in pages of a scholar's work that do not specifically address my own points, while at the same time raise questions of their own.

Since you have not addressed any of my points, it is very clear that you are not willing to have an honest debate, nor are you willing to grow as a human being.

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Why don't you refer to some Scholar's work, who has addressed the points you raised. Or do you think no Scholar have addressed those points?

Allah be praised! Wow, for the very first time, someone has finally acknowledged the verses I've quoted and the argument I'm making. If I'm out to lunch with my understanding, then show me how - don't just dismiss it! This is a basic courtesy and shouldn't have to be explained.

 

Are you interested in knowing what people on this forum thinks what those Verses and Hadiths might mean. I mean seriously a person have to have some type of background information on this for him/her to be able to understand what those Verses and Hadiths REALLY mean. And I personally don't want to interpret these Hadiths and Verses because I don't have any background knowledge on them so I don't want to interpret anything wrong.

Very reasonable. Why didn't you just acknowledge my argument in the first place, and then give this explanation to address it - instead of refusing my argument even existed and then making blanket assertions the scholars are correct? That's the problem I've had - excuse me for applying some basic principles of rationality in debates.

 

Now, if we have to go to scholars, fine - so be it. I would expect however, they give some reasonable reasons, and not just make assertions.

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If you want clarification on what you have mentioned go to the students of knowledge or to the scholars and stop debating with laymen.

No kidding.

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Salams

 

:D

llogical, we all do understand that hell is eternal. The majority of Muslims understand that hell is eternal.

Ok, thanks for the reassurance I guess :no:.

To be sure I get this right ,what you are saying or implying is that the Majority of the muslims believe that there is such thing as eternal hell punishment, because scholars believe so, and or there is hard evidence ( quran/hadith)?

Obviously this may concern me as one needs to know whether to pack light or heavy depending on the length of the stay :D ( yeah I know not funny :sl: ) ..So here I am caught in the midst of a civil war trying to steer cleer of the crossfire while trying to get some where...yes, im gonna tell it like a story in third person and no, in real life I am not a mental patient.

 

L[using large font size is not allowed]logical was getting mixed signals here because aside from the evidence Mr.Qadir and some others presented in favor of the claim, Odobknof seemed to defend an alternate view, and did present some counter evidence or atleast attempted to ( being nuetral to it's validity for argument's sake).

 

So hoping llogical's assumption above (in bold ) was correct, here is a typical response with a healthy dose of skepticism ( a must ingredient to any objective understanding)

1.Majority is often wrong

2.Scholars often disagree

 

So the only real evidence one can rely on will be hard evidence such as Quran or Hadith. and not what majority muslims, or Scholars thought.

 

So llogical scrolled back to the first post on the thread with any evidence in support of eternal hell punishment and came across Redeem's Post that quoted below from Quran

Az-Zukhruf

74. Verily, the criminals will be in the torment of Hell to abide therein forever.

75. (The torment) will not be lightened for them, and they will be plunged into destruction with deep regrets, sorrows and in despair therein.

76. We wronged them not, but they were the wrongdoers.

77. And they will cry: "O Malik (keeper of Hell)! Let your Lord make an end of us.'' He will say: "Verily, you shall abide forever.''

 

To grab the context llogical went to below site recommended in another thread and got the translations below.

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetusc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/043.qmt.html"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetusc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/043.qmt.html[/url]

 

043.074

YUSUFALI: The sinners will be in the Punishment of Hell, to dwell therein (for aye):

PICKTHAL: Lo! the guilty are immortal in hell's torment.

SHAKIR: Surely the guilty shall abide in the chastisement of hell.

 

043.075

YUSUFALI: Nowise will the (Punishment) be lightened for them, and in despair will they be there overwhelmed.

PICKTHAL: It is not relaxed for them, and they despair therein.

SHAKIR: It shall not be abated from them and they shall therein be despairing.

 

043.076

YUSUFALI: Nowise shall We be unjust to them: but it is they who have been unjust themselves.

PICKTHAL: We wronged them not, but they it was who did the wrong.

SHAKIR: And We are not unjust to them, but they themselves were unjust.

 

043.077

YUSUFALI: They will cry: "O Malik! would that thy Lord put an end to us!" He will say, "Nay, but ye shall abide!"

PICKTHAL: And they cry: O master! Let thy Lord make an end of us. He saith: Lo! here ye must remain.

SHAKIR: And they shall call out: O Malik! let your Lord make an end of us. He shall say: Surely you shall tarry.

 

Here the translation by all three guys differed from what Redeem posted, coincidentally :sl:

ex. in verse 74...the word FOREVER is not present in any other translations.

AT this point llogical stopped, because he was tired, and a bit :j: because this suggested to him that even hard evidence can be manipulated to suit a particular point of view. Thus he stopped from further investigation so he can report his findings to others prior to examining more evidence, and encourage people to present evidence that's relevant and free of bias.

To be continued.....

Peace :D

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Here the translation by all three guys differed from what Redeem posted, coincidentally rolleyes.gif

ex. in verse 74...the word FOREVER is not present in any other translations.

 

I'm pretty sure that the last word in verse 43:74 means "eternity" (a similar word means "immortality" in reference to hellfire, so I know it's something along those lines).

 

Nonetheless, Yusuf Ali translates dwelling in hellfire as "for aye", which means "forever".

 

Salam.

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I don't understand why people argue about hell. The Holy Quran has already stated:

 

"Truly Hell is as a place of ambush, For the transgressors a place of destination:They will dwell therein for ages." The Holy Quran 78:21-23

 

"Those who reject Faith,- neither their possessions nor their (numerous) progeny will avail them aught against Allah: They will be companions of the Fire,-dwelling therein (for ever)." The Holy Quran 3:116

 

If someone needs more verses of the Holy Quran about hell, I would be pleased to show him/her many of them.

 

God has said in the Quran:

 

Those who have disbelieved and died in disbelief, the earth full of gold would not be accepted from any of them if one offered it as a ransom. They will have a painful punishment, and they will have no helpers. (Quran, 3:91)

 

So, this life is our only chance to win Paradise and to escape from Hellfire, because if someone dies in disbelief, he will not have another chance to come back to this world to believe. As God has said in the Quran about what is going to happen for the unbelievers on the Day of Judgment:

 

If you could but see when they are set before the Fire (Hell) and say, “Would that we might return (to the world)! Then we would not reject the verses of our Lord, but we would be of the believers!” (Quran, 6:27)

 

But no one will have this second opportunity.

 

The Door to Eternal Paradise

 

God has said in the Quran:

 

And give good news (O Muhammad) to those who believe and do good deeds, that they will have gardens (Paradise) in which rivers flow.... (Quran, 2:25)

 

God has also said:

 

Race one with another for forgiveness from your Lord and for Paradise, whose width is as the width of the heavens and the earth, which has been prepared for those who believe in God and His messengers.... (Quran, 57:21)

 

The Prophet Muhammad told us that the lowest in rank among the dwellers of Paradise will have ten times the like of this world,1 and he or she will have whatever he or she desires and ten times like it.2 Also, the Prophet Muhammad said: {A space in Paradise equivalent to the size of a foot would be better than the world and what is in it.}3 He also said: {In Paradise there are things which no eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no human mind has thought of.}4 He also said: {The most miserable man in the world of those meant for Paradise will be dipped once in Paradise. Then he will be asked, “Son of Adam, did you ever face any misery? Did you ever experience any hardship?” So he will say, “No, by God, O Lord! I never faced any misery, and I never experienced any hardship.”}5

 

If you enter Paradise, you will live a very happy life without sickness, pain, sadness, or death; God will be pleased with you; and you will live there forever. God has said in the Quran:

 

But those who believe and do good deeds, We will admit them to gardens (Paradise) in which rivers flow, lasting in them forever.... (Quran, 4:57)

 

Footnotes:

 

(1) Narrated in Saheeh Muslim, #186, and Saheeh Al-Bukhari, #6571. Back from footnote (1)

 

(2) Narrated in Saheeh Muslim, #188, and Mosnad Ahmad, #10832. Back from footnote (2)

 

(3) Narrated in Saheeh Al-Bukhari, #6568, and Mosnad Ahmad, #13368. Back from footnote (3)

 

(4) Narrated in Saheeh Muslim, #2825, and Mosnad Ahmad, #8609. Back from footnote (4)

 

(5) Narrated in Saheeh Muslim, #2807, and Mosnad Ahmad, #12699. Back from footnote (5)

 

Source: (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetIslam-guide(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/frm-ch2-1.htm"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetIslam-guide(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/frm-ch2-1.htm[/url]

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I see we have some late comers in this debate/argument/civil war. As the topic starter, apparently forum rules suggest it’s my job to keep this discussion on track and relevant to the thread; nowhere did it indicate I am also to provide top entertainment dollar value along with bonus ring side seats – all at no additional upcharge. :sl:

 

Just to set the record straight, I do not have a firm position on this topic; one of things I have learned as this thread has progressed - and a position I articulated several pages ago. My suggestion is to conduct an unbiased investigation of the topic that leaves open all possibilities. In some ways, it is more than an academic discussion; as the concept of hell in eternity seems to raise moral objections by many atheists and theists alike. So, I thought, why simply assume hell is forever, why not objectively investigate the subject matter at hand.

 

Since this has apparently become a ‘hot’ topic - but then again we are dealing with hell, :no: – I have organized the salient points of contributions to date, from all posters, according to the rationale that follows (though I really should take up Mahid’s advice on this and not discuss this with lay people, but hell, :sl: I’ve gone this far).

 

The Qur’anic verses, as they relate to this topic, can be classified into 4 categories:

 

1. Verses that seem to refer only to the Day of Judgement, and not beyond.

2. Verses that say a “long, long, timeâ€.

3. Verses that say “there to remain†but do not add in “forever†or “permanentlyâ€.

4. Verses that say “forever†or “permanentlyâ€.

 

For ease of reference, I will provide sample verses from each category in a separate post soon to follow, so that we can simply refer back to that post #.

 

If one is truly to have an open mind in this discussion, instead of a preconceived bias, the following should be done objectively:

 

A. Agree/disagree with the above 4 classifications. If not, why not?

 

Now, assuming we can get an agreement on this, the fundamental question becomes:

 

B. How do you reconcile verses that apparently belong in conflicting categories?

 

This is the dilemma. And below, I have summarized the possible conclusions:

 

i) Hell is forever. If so, an explanation to reconcile verses that fall in categories 1 and 2 is required.

 

ii) Hell is for a limited time. If so, an explanation for verses that fall in categories 3 and 4 is required.

 

In points (i) and (ii) above, you have the opportunity to bring in hadith, scholars opinions, your own rationale, etc. to support your position. But please do not ignore or discount verses that belong in the other categories as if they don’t even exist – something many individuals have been doing.

 

Your proposed interpretation must be all encompassing and must be able to reconcile all 4 verse categories.

 

That’s my proposal. I believe I have outlined an opportunity for forum members to engage in a rational based investigation of the subject matter at hand – including the opportunity to bring in scholars opinions, hadith, and your own ideas for a lively, and fun-filled debate. In order for this to be truly realized, one must be open to all possibilities, and be respectful of them.

 

If you are of the opinion that we shouldn't even be having this discussion, please do not engage with any postings; your silence will be indicative of your position.

 

Peace.

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Allah be praised! Wow, for the very first time, someone has finally acknowledged the verses I've quoted and the argument I'm making. If I'm out to lunch with my understanding, then show me how - don't just dismiss it! This is a basic courtesy and shouldn't have to be explained.

Very reasonable. Why didn't you just acknowledge my argument in the first place, and then give this explanation to address it - instead of refusing my argument even existed and then making blanket assertions the scholars are correct? That's the problem I've had - excuse me for applying some basic principles of rationality in debates.

 

Now, if we have to go to scholars, fine - so be it. I would expect however, they give some reasonable reasons, and not just make assertions.

 

Better late than never...

I do have some questions for you regarding your argument, I'll ask them after I read your posts on the argument to see if you have already answered those questions. This interests me now.

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Better late than never...

I do have some questions for you regarding your argument, I'll ask them after I read your posts on the argument to see if you have already answered those questions. This interests me now.

Thank you sister Hira,

 

I do very much appreciate you coming on board, and do look forward to your input.

 

I am working on first preparing the 4 Categories of Verses as a separate posting. I'll just need some time to do this along with everything else we all have to do in life. Right now, I'm going to bake some cookies with my wife and kids. Balance in life is important.

 

Once again, I'm really happy that you are participating.

 

Peace.

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I'm pretty sure that the last word in verse 43:74 means "eternity" (a similar word means "immortality" in reference to hellfire, so I know it's something along those lines).

 

Nonetheless, Yusuf Ali translates dwelling in hellfire as "for aye", which means "forever".

 

Salam.

 

Salamz

I personally don't speak arabic well enough to translate for myslef, but I do realize that there might have been an implicit meaning there since Yousufali enclosed "For Aye" in parenthesis and others did not even mention any word that's synanymsous.

I googled and found below synynoms closest to "For Aye"

 

for a while

for all intents and purposes

for all practical purposes

for all the world

For Angles of commutation

for any price

for anything

For because

For best

for certain

for dear life

for each one

for each person

For effect

 

Again I don't see eternity,or forever, as being a close cinnamon for For Aye ( toungue slip on cinnamon :sl:)

 

Also Since they thing vague here is the essence of the dispute, I have to split hair.

 

And all the people keep saying the eternity thing is true I don't know well enough to say yes or no yet, , but I do know that if is, it's definitely not claritin clear ( I would say crystal but jewels are overrated :sl: )

 

Peace

 

Peace

Edited by llogical

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Salamz

I personally don't speak arabic well enough to translate for myslef, but I do realize that there might have been an implicit meaning there since Yousufali enclosed "For Aye" in parenthesis and others did not even mention any word that's synanymsous.

 

Yusuf Ali and others have a more modern translation of the Qur'an (from my knowledge) and I myself have come across a few instances in which they haven't translated a verse to its fullest meaning, OR they gave it a slightly different meaning. But if you wish to use them over scholars such as Ibn Kathir...then by all means. Though I have to warn you that most scholars are more leniant toward the interpretation of Ibn Kathir and others. May Allah bless Yusuf Ali and the other two scholars for their achievements but as far as credibility goes, I'd say Ibn Kathir shoots off the charts.

 

It makes one wonder why "khalidun" (forever, eternity) was left out of their translations. The verse says:

 

Innal Mujrimeen (the criminals, sinners) Fee 'adaabi Jahanam (will be in the torment of Hellfire) khalidun (forever).

 

"Khalid" is a common Muslim/Arab name that means immortal or eternal, just on a side note.

 

I googled and found below synynoms closest to "For Aye"

 

I think I know what website you went to, as I use it frequently to look phrases up. If you go back to that same website and look up, say, "cake", you'll get this list in place of the one you listed.

 

Cajoler

cajolery

cajolingly

Cajun

Cajuput

Cajuputene

Cakchiquel

cake

cake mix

Cake urchin

cakehole

cakewalk

Cakile

Cakile maritima

Caking coal

 

They're not synonyms of "cake", the only relation they have to the word is that they're alphabetically near one another on the list of words the website has. You'll notice that "cake" itself is near the middle of the list, just as for aye is (but I think you erased "for aye" out).

 

However, if you scroll to the top, you'll see the given definitions of "for aye", which are forever, eternally.

 

Salam.

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AA Brothers and Sisters,

 

Phew…that was a lot of work! Good thing I had those shortbread cookies - lots of butter; great for the mouth, bad for the arteries. :sl:

 

Well…here it is. Step one in this process is to establish and verify this list. So, this is everyone’s opportunity to review the verses and the category they are sorted in. Please review each and every sura, and verify you agree with:

 

1. The translation itself. Mostly, I used Abdel Haleem…but if you are going to debate this…now’s the time.

2. The verse is in the correct category. Again…if you are going to debate this…now’s the time.

3. This is your time to add as many verses as you like for each category. Just post your suggestions and the category you think they belong in.

4. I added a 5th category. Some verses just didn't fit in the 4 categories. I think you'll see what I mean when you read them.

 

I am going to give a time limit of 2 days, which is 48 hours from the date of this post to complete this process. After that, I will post one final listing, which we will all use as a common basis to proceed to the next step of analysis. At each step of the process, I will attempt to make things as clear as possible, and get as much agreement as possible on the process, in order to:

 

• Make this a truly interactive experience.

• Make progress based on mutual cooperation.

• Make the emphasis of the process more on learning than combative arguments. For a classic example of combative argument however, please refer to the last 2 pages of postings. :sl:

 

If successful, this process could serve as a model or ‘template’ for this forum to advance discussions in a community oriented way. I shall leave that thought to forum organizers as a post-mortem activity after this thread is completed.

 

Please note: This list is not meant to be exhaustive. Rather, it is meant to illustrate the validity of the categories by having sufficient verses in each to support the classification.

 

A special invitation: Muhammad Qadir, if you change your mind, and would like to participate in this process, I still extend my hand out to you in peace. :no:

 

Odobknarf.

 

 

Appendix A: Qur’anic verses referencing the duration of time in hell; classified into 5 categories.

 

Note to reader: Verses are arranged in numerical order by sura, within each category. Key words are highlighted in bold for ease of identification.

 

1. Verses that refer only to the Day of Judgement, and not beyond

 

5:36-37

"If the disbelievers possessed all that is in the earth and twice as much again and offered it to ransom themselves from torment on the Day of Resurrection, it would not be accepted from them - they will have a painful torment. They will wish to come out of the Fire but they will be unable to do so: theirs will be a lasting torment".

 

30:55-57

"On the Day the Hour comes, the guilty will swear they lingered no more than an hour - they have always been deluded - but those endowed with knowledge and faith will say, 'In accordance with God's decree, you actually lingered till the Day of Resurrection: this is the Day of Resurrection, yet you did not know. On the Day the evildoers' excuses will be of no use to them; they will not be allowed to make amends."

 

37:33-39

"On that Day they will all share the torment: this is how we deal with the guilty...you will taste the painful torment, and be repaid only according to your deeds."

 

40:16-17

"the Day when they will come out...Today each soul will be rewarded for whatever it has done; today no injustice will be done. God is swift in reckoning."

 

40:45-52

“…A terrible punishment engulfed Pharaoh’s people; they will be brought before the Fire morning and evening. On the Day the Hour comes, it will be said, ‘Throw Pharaoh’s people into the worst torment.’ In the Fire they will quarrel with one another: the weak will say to the haughty, ‘We were your followers, so can you now relieve us from some share of the Fire?’ but they will say, ‘We are all in this together. God has judged between His creatures.’ Those in the Fire will say to the keepers of Hell, ‘Ask your Lord to Lessen our suffering for one day…We support Our messengers and the believers, in the present life and on the Day when witnesses arise. On the Day when excuses will not profit the evildoers…

 

45:34-35

"Today we shall ignore you just as you ignored your appointment with this Day...They will not be brought out of the Fire on that Day, nor will they be given the chance to make amends."

 

70:1-6

"A man (mockingly) demanded the punishment. It will fall on the disbelievers - none can deflect it - from God, the Lord of the Ways of Ascent, by which the angels and the Spirit ascend to Him, on a Day whose length is fifty thousand years. So be patient, (Prophet), as befits you. The disbelievers think it is distant, but We know it to be close."

 

82:13-19

“As for the Righteous, they will be in bliss;

And the Wicked - they will be in the Fire,

Which they will enter on the Day of Judgment,

And they will not be able to keep away therefrom.

And what will explain to thee what the Day of Judgment is?

Again, what will explain to thee what the Day of Judgment is?

(It will be) the Day when no soul shall have power (to do) aught for another: For the command, that Day, will be (wholly) with Allahâ€

 

83:14-17

"No indeed! Their hearts are encrusted with what they have done. No indeed! On that Day they will be screened off from their Lord, they will burn in Hell, and they will be told, 'This is what you called a lie.

 

Category 2. Verses that say a “long, long, timeâ€

 

78:23-25

“They will abide therein for ages.

Nothing cool shall they taste therein, nor any drink.

Except boiling water, and dirty wound dischargesâ€

 

78:21-27

"Hell lies in wait, a home for oppressors to stay in for a long, long time, where they will taste no coolness nor drink except one that is scalding and dark - a fitting requital, for they did not fear a reckoning..."

 

Category 3. Verses that say “there to remain†but do not add in “forever†or “permanentlyâ€

 

2:166-167

"When those who have been followed disown their followers, when they all see the suffering, when all bonds between them are severed, the followers will say, 'If only we had one last chance, we would disown them as they now disown us.' In this way, God will make them see their deeds as a source of bitter regret: they shall not leave the Fire."

 

35:36-37

He has, in His bounty, settled us in the everlasting Home where no toil or fatigue will touch us.’ But those who reject the truth will stay in Hellfire, where they will neither be finished off by death, nor be relieved from Hell’s torment: this is how We reward hardened disbelievers.

 

43, 74:78

..."But the evildoers will remain in Hell's punishment, from which there is no relief: they will remain in utter despair. We never wronged them; they were the ones who did wrong. They will cry, 'Malik, if only your Lord would finish us off, but he will answer, 'No! You are here to stay.' We have brought you the Truth but most of you despise it."

 

4. Verses that say “forever†or “permanentlyâ€

 

4:168-169

"God will not forgive those who have disbelieved and do evil, nor will He guide them to any path except that of Hell, where they will remain forever - this is easy for God."

 

43:74-78

“Surely, the disbelievers will be in the torment of Hell to abide therein forever. (The torment) will not be lightened for them, and they will be plunged into destruction with deep regrets, sorrows and in despair therein. We wronged them not, but they were the wrongdoers. And they will cry: ‘O Malik! Let your Lord make an end of us’ He will say: ‘Surely, you shall abide forever.’

 

72:23

"...Whoever disobeys God and His Messenger will have Hell's Fire as his permanent home."

 

5: Verses that do not clearly belong in the above 4 categories

 

11:106-108

"The wretched ones will be in the Fire, signing and groaning, there to remain for as long as the heavens and earth endure, unless your Lord wills otherwise: your Lord carries out whatever He wills. As for those who have been blessed, they will be in Paradise, there to remain as long as the heavens and earth endure, unless your Lord wills otherwise - an unceasing gift."

 

7:140

The gates of Heaven will not be open to those who rejected Our revelations and arrogantly spurned them; even if a thick rope were to pass through the eye of a needle they would not enter the Garden. This is how we punish the guilty – Hell will be their resting place and their covering, layer upon layer – this is how We punish those who do evil.â€

 

33:64-66 Possible Categories: 1 or 4

"God has rejected the disbelievers and prepared a blazing fire for them. There they will stay permanently, with no one to befriend or support them. On the Day when their faces are being turned about in the Fire, they will say, 'If only we had obeyed God and the Messenger,"

 

39:71-72 Possible Categories: 1 or 3

“And those who disbelieved will be driven to Hell in groups till when they reach it, the gates thereof will be opened. And its keepers will say: "Did not the Messengers come to you from yourselves, reciting to you the Ayat of your Lord, and warning you of the meeting of this Day of yours'' They will say: "Yes,'' but the Word of torment has been justified against the disbelievers! It will be said: "Enter you the gates of Hell, to abide therein. And what an evil abode of the arrogant!''[39:71-72]

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Thank you sister Hira,

 

I do very much appreciate you coming on board, and do look forward to your input.

 

I'm looking forward to learn something from all this... all this interests me, that's why I decided to put my input in it.

 

I am working on first preparing the 4 Categories of Verses as a separate posting. I'll just need some time to do this along with everything else we all have to do in life. Right now, I'm going to bake some cookies with my wife and kids. Balance in life is important.

 

Once again, I'm really happy that you are participating.

 

Peace.

 

I like how your organizing everything, it makes it much easier to understand, may your efforts lead to a good result. Ameen.

Your are right brother balance is very important in life, and that's what all of us should try to do.

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Assalamu Alaykum wa Rahmatullahee wa Barakatu

 

I think this hadeeth is enough for proof that hellfire is neverending.

 

Sahih Bukhary:

Volume 6, Book 60, Number 254 - Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

 

Allah's Apostle said, "On the Day of Resurrection Death will be brought forward in the shape of a black and white ram. Then a call maker will call, 'O people of Paradise!' Thereupon they will stretch their necks and look carefully. The caller will say, 'Do you know this?' They will say, 'Yes, this is Death.' By then all of them will have seen it. Then it will be announced again, 'O people of Hell !' They will stretch their necks and look carefully. The caller will say, 'Do you know this?' They will say, 'Yes, this is Death.' And by then all of them will have seen it. Then it (that ram) will be slaughtered and the caller will say, 'O people of Paradise! Eternity for you and no death O people of Hell! Eternity for you and no death."' Then the Prophet, recited:--

 

'And warn them of the Day of distress when the case has been decided, while (now) they are in a state of carelessness (i.e. the people of the world) and they do not believe.' (19.39)

 

Sahih Muslim - Book 040, Number 6827:

Abu Sa'id reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Death would be brought on the Day of Resurrection. in the form of a white-coloured ram. Abu Kuraib made this addition: Then it would be made to stand between the Paradise and the Hell. So far as the rest of the hadith is concerned there is perfect agreement (between the two narrators) and it would be said to the inmates of Paradise: Do you recognise this? They would raise up their necks and look towards it and say: Yes, ' it is death. Then it would be said to the inmates of Hell-Fire.. Do you recognise this? And they would raise up their necks and look and say: Yes, it is death. Then command would be given for slaughtering that and then it would be said: 0 inmates of Paradise,, there is an everlasting life for you and no death. And then (addressing) to the inmates of the Hell-Fire, it would be said: 0 inmates of Hell-Fire, there is an everlasting living for you and no death. Allah's Messenger (may peace be u[at]on him) then recited this verse pointing with his hand to this (material) world:" Warn them, this Day of dismay, and when their affairs would be decided and they would be un- mindful and they believe not" (xix. 39).

 

Where do you want the people of paradise and the people of hellfire to live if paradise and hellfire disappear?

Edited by Yusha Isra'eel

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:sl:

 

It is stated in sahih hadiths that those who commit suicide shall remain in Jahannam 'for ever', or 'for aye'. How congruous is this with the hadith below?

 

The Prophet added, "There will come out of Hell (Fire) everyone who says: 'La ilaha illal-lah,' and has in his heart good equal to the weight of a barley grain. Then there will come out of Hell (Fire) everyone who says: ' La ilaha illal-lah,' and has in his heart good equal to the weight of a wheat grain. Then there will come out of Hell (Fire) everyone who says: 'La ilaha illal-lah,' and has in his heart good equal to the weight of an atom (or a smallest ant)." [sahih Bukhari]

 

Is not a believer who happens to kill himself counted as one among those who say, "la ilaaha il Allah"? What is the interpretation of this and how does this fit into your dialogue?

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The Holy Quran forbids suicide:

 

"O ye who believe! Eat not up your property among yourselves in vanities: But let there be amongst you Traffic and trade by mutual good-will: Nor kill (or destroy) yourselves: for verily Allah hath been to you Most Merciful! " The Holy Quran 4:29

 

If a person claim that he is a Muslim, he should obey the Holy Quran which is the Word of Allah. By saying "la ilaaha il Allah", he or she should not kill (or destroy) himself or herself.

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Salamz

Yusuf Ali and others have a more modern translation of the Qur'an (from my knowledge) and I myself have come across a few instances in which they haven't translated a verse to its fullest meaning, OR they gave it a slightly different meaning.

Mannn... it sux not knowing arabic :sl: ..but anywho I did google and seems there are translations that mention Forever, and other that say immortally so I am gonna move on to the next source I guess :D

(you can stop cheering for yourself :no: being right about 1 thing doesn't prove the entire point :sl:)

But if you wish to use them over scholars such as Ibn Kathir...then by all means. Though I have to warn you that most scholars are more leniant toward the interpretation of Ibn Kathir and others. May Allah bless Yusuf Ali and the other two scholars for their achievements but as far as credibility goes, I'd say Ibn Kathir shoots off the charts.

I truely wish the world can agree on one translation because in my experience different people prefer different translations and the fact that they often look very different complicate things :D

 

It makes one wonder why "khalidun" (forever, eternity) was left out of their translations. The verse says:

Innal Mujrimeen (the criminals, sinners) Fee 'adaabi Jahanam (will be in the torment of Hellfire) khalidun (forever).

 

"Khalid" is a common Muslim/Arab name that means immortal or eternal, just on a side note.

I think I know what website you went to, as I use it frequently to look phrases up. If you go back to that same website and look up, say, "cake", you'll get this list in place of the one you listed.

I said I belive you now so you can stop showing off with Arabic :j:

Cajoler

cajolery

cajolingly

Cajun

Cajuput

Cajuputene

Cakchiquel

cake

cake mix

Cake urchin

cakehole

cakewalk

Cakile

Cakile maritima

Caking coal

They're not synonyms of "cake", the only relation they have to the word is that they're alphabetically near one another on the list of words the website has. You'll notice that "cake" itself is near the middle of the list, just as for aye is (but I think you erased "for aye" out).

I got them from thesaurus [at] (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetthefreedictionary(contact admin if its a beneficial link)"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetthefreedictionary(contact admin if its a beneficial link)[/url]

but again since I found 3+ other translations of the verses that do mention forever, Im just gonna move on to the next verse... maybe I'll make a list of pros and cons ..there goes my Sunday ...Ah the price we pay for acquiring knowledge.brb

peace

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:sl:

 

It is stated in sahih hadiths that those who commit suicide shall remain in Jahannam 'for ever', or 'for aye'. How congruous is this with the hadith below?

Is not a believer who happens to kill himself counted as one among those who say, "la ilaaha il Allah"? What is the interpretation of this and how does this fit into your dialogue?

 

Thanks for pointing this out Joseph.

 

Indeed...I think this illustrates the subject is not as clear cut as one would suppose.

 

I remain undeterred in my approach which I have described in great detail in post #113 and #118. This methodology, for those who care to read it, allows individuals to post hadiths, such as the one in question, in a systematic and organized structure within a 'framework' to further your argument.

 

As a reminder, we are on presently on step 1, which is to review each verse I've listed in post #118 to ensure you agree with:

 

1. The translation itself. Mostly, I used Abdel Haleem…but if you are going to debate this…now’s the time.

2. The verse is in the correct category. Again…if you are going to debate this…now’s the time.

3. This is your time to add as many verses as you like for each category. Just post your suggestions and the category you think they belong in.

 

I look forward to receiving feedback on this first step, so that we may proceed on the next step.

 

Peace.

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