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Is Hell In Islam Eternal?

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Is not a believer who happens to kill himself counted as one among those who say, "la ilaaha il Allah"? What is the interpretation of this and how does this fit into your dialogue?

 

:sl:

 

I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that the aHadith contradict one another?

 

Nonetheless, I'm almost certain that suicide is considered by the scholars to be an act of kuffr and one who commits it dies in a state of disbelief.

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:sl:

 

I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that the aHadith contradict one another?

 

Nonetheless, I'm almost certain that suicide is considered by the scholars to be an act of kuffr and one who commits it dies in a state of disbelief.

Curious...what's your view on 'suicide bombers'? In their minds, they were blowing themselves up for the sake of Allah. Do you think they died in a state of disbelief?

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Curious...what's your view on 'suicide bombers'? In their minds, they were blowing themselves up for the sake of Allah. Do you think they died in a state of disbelief?

 

:sl:

 

Anyone can do anything with the right intentions but the wrong actions. The ends do not justify the means.

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:sl:

 

Anyone can do anything with the right intentions but the wrong actions. The ends do not justify the means.

True...so does that mean you think suicide bombers die in a state of disbelief?

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:sl:

 

This is going off topic, however, there are some scholars who argue that suicide bombing (or as they call it, martyrdom operations); are permissible under certain circumstances.

 

I wouldn't say that ALL suicide bombers die in a state of disbelief, Allah knows best. It may be that Allah will forgive them because of their intentions... there isn't alot of proof to say whether this act is definitely halal, or definitely haram.

 

However, if someone kills themselves because they have lost all hope, and have given up on Allah then this is a different thing.

 

This topic goes against forum rules, so it's probably not a good idea to discuss this here.

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True...so does that mean you think suicide bombers die in a state of disbelief?

 

:sl:

 

If something is haraam, does it stop being haraam when it's done with good intentions? If a man kills a little girl to feed his family, is he not a murderer, or are the rules bent for him?

 

Also, I'm not going to call people kuffar, that itself is haraam. But it's a widely held opinion that suicide is an act of disbelief.

 

Salam.

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Welcome back brother...I'm glad you have decided to rejoin the discussion.

 

Let me begin by saying, Peace.

 

This topic goes against forum rules, so it's probably not a good idea to discuss this here.

Well, I certainly wouldn't want to do that. Can you please indicate which rule this violates, and how, so that I may initiate self-censorship?

 

 

:sl:

This is going off topic...

Actually, it is very much related...however, if it is violating forum rules, which I would like to be enlightened on, I will certainly not pursue the matter.

 

...however, there are some scholars who argue that suicide bombing (or as they call it, martyrdom operations); are permissible under certain circumstances.

...and presumably some scholars don't...so therefore scholars do differ with each other on complex issues.

 

I wouldn't say that ALL suicide bombers die in a state of disbelief, Allah knows best. It may be that Allah will forgive them because of their intentions... there isn't alot of proof to say whether this act is definitely halal, or definitely haram.

Agreed. No one can really know Allah's wisdom. Not even a scholar can know God's mind. And this is how this example is related to the topic at hand. Verses from the Qur'an and the examples from aHadith are open to interpretation, and no one, not the most learned scholar, can stake a definitive claim and say "I know God's mind". On a subject as sensitive as going to hell for eternity, as complex as this, I think only God knows.

 

However, I have laid out a structure to investigate this objectively, and I have extended a special invitation to you to join in the discussion if it pleases you. I would welcome your input brother, and I would like to proceed in the most civilized of ways. However, I cannot force you, but I do welcome you with open arms.

 

Peace.

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Agreed. No one can really know Allah's wisdom. Not even a scholar can know God's mind.

:sl:

 

We can, however, know what Allah has told us by looking at what prophet Muhammad's own words and teachings were, and how the companions acted on the Qur'an and the Sunnah. The difference between the scholars and the average Joe is that these scholars have dedicated their lives to gathering information and compiling them into books. The scholars don't just say "Hmm...I think my opinion is..."

 

Allah wouldn't give us riddles that would confuse us and make our Deen harder to follow.

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If something is haraam, does it stop being haraam when it's done with good intentions? If a man kills a little girl to feed his family, is he not a murderer, or are the rules bent for him?

Hmmm...you would think wouldn't you? But I'm not so sure about that. Do you remember the story in the Qur'an of Moses and the Unknown Man who was given knowledge of his own from God to carry out some very specific tasks. Moses wanted to accompany this Man so that Moses may grow in wisdom and learn from this Man's tasks. Well, at one point, the Unknown Man killed a young boy, for no apparent reason. So the act was cold blooded murder, the boy was innocent of any known crimes, but the intent was to please God, because God wanted the boys righteous parents to have a better, more righteous son.

 

I guess the rules were bent for this Unkown man.

 

And the reason is God often talks about intentions in the Qur'an. If you're family was bombed, your extended family and neighbours continually exploited, and you had lost all hope or reason to live. Can you really say what you would do, or how God would judge you if you decided to wrap some explosives around you and blow yourself up? Can anyone say they know how that person really feels, or how God would judge that person? Of whether that person died in a state of disbelief?

 

I think not.

 

Don't get me wrong. I'm not supporting suicide bombing. What I am saying, is that no one can say they know how God would judge the situation.

 

Also, I'm not going to call people kuffar, that itself is haraam. But it's a widely held opinion that suicide is an act of disbelief.

 

Salam.

You should have been a politician...or maybe you are. :sl:

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:sl:

 

I think this would come under rule #26.

 

I'm not sure if I want to continue the hell being eternal here, but if you use MSN I'd be happy to talk with you properly.

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Hmmm...you would think wouldn't you? But I'm not so sure about that. Do you remember the story in the Qur'an of Moses and the Unknown Man who was given knowledge of his own from God to carry out some very specific tasks. Moses wanted to accompany this Man so that Moses may grow in wisdom and learn from this Man's tasks. Well, at one point, the Unknown Man killed a young boy, for no apparent reason. So the act was cold blooded murder, the boy was innocent of any known crimes, but the intent was to please God, because God wanted the boys righteous parents to have a better, more righteous son.

:sl:

 

Completely different cases, brother. The child himself would grow up to be a murderer, and Allah placed wisdom in the man to know more than the average human being.

 

This story isn't similar to a man killing a young child, not even because he has been gifted with insight, but because he wants to, say, rob her of the money he would use to feed his family.

 

I guess the rules were bent for this Unkown man.

 

This was at a time when prophets existed, and the rules were different in general. The same would not apply to our present day lives.

 

You should have been a politician...or maybe you are. blink.gif

 

Not even for the world. :sl:

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I think this would come under rule #26.

Looks like you might be right...anyway...too close for comfort so I'll drop it.

 

I'm not sure if I want to continue the hell being eternal here, but if you use MSN I'd be happy to talk with you properly.

Ha ha ha...somehow I think you and I have very different view of the word "properly". No thanks, I think I'll pass.

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:sl:

 

Ha ha ha...somehow I think you and I have very different view of the word "properly". No thanks, I think I'll pass.

 

Sorry brother, I didn't quite understand what you meant by that? :sl:

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:sl:

 

Completely different cases, brother. The child himself would grow up to be a murderer, and Allah placed wisdom in the man to know more than the average human being.

 

This story isn't similar to a man killing a young child, not even because he has been gifted with insight, but because he wants to, say, rob her of the money he would use to feed his family.

This was at a time when prophets existed, and the rules were different in general. The same would not apply to our present day lives.

Not even for the world. :sl:

There's a lot to say on this subject, the original discussion was not about a man killing a child to feed his family, it's about a suicide bomber committing suicide because of unbearable oppression. These two anaologies are not the same. But again, I don't think we can discuss this because it's too close to Jihad.

 

It is related to this topic, however, because Joseph brought out a dichotomy between two different hadith, that may have a bearing on the subject of eternity in Hell...but maybe we've all had enough of this comparison.

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:sl:

 

We can, however, know what Allah has told us by looking at what prophet Muhammad's own words and teachings were, and how the companions acted on the Qur'an and the Sunnah. The difference between the scholars and the average Joe is that these scholars have dedicated their lives to gathering information and compiling them into books. The scholars don't just say "Hmm...I think my opinion is..."

 

Allah wouldn't give us riddles that would confuse us and make our Deen harder to follow.

Hmm...I think my opinion is :sl: ...just kidding. I think I mentioned on complex issues. Whether Hell is for eternity or for a very very long time...isn't going to change our deen or confuse us on how we should behave in this life. I mean, I don't want to be in Hell for a second, let alone thousands of years.

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Hmm...I think my opinion is :sl: ...just kidding. I think I mentioned on complex issues. Whether Hell is for eternity or for a very very long time...isn't going to change our deen or confuse us on how we should behave in this life. I mean, I don't want to be in Hell for a second, let alone thousands of years.

 

:sl:

 

Very true. :no: May Allah save us and our families from such a fate.

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:sl: sister Layna,

 

I thank you for your input but I'm afraid the ulema are unanimous in their ruling the suicide is not an act of Kufr but rather a major sin.

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_qa.sunnipath(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=2985&CATE=24"]SunniPath[/url] (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetIslam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=7631"]Ask Imam[/url]

 

I haven't a clue though where you got the idea that suicide is tantamount to disbelief. This may be a dichotomy between two or more hadiths but not every dichotomy entails contradiction.

 

The matter is that we don't understand the Arabic word(s) used by the Holy Prophet (saas) when he spoke of punishment lasting 'forever' in the context of suicide. If the same word(s) used in those hadiths are also used in the Qur'an, then we're in a sticky situation. If the scholars themselves are unable to solve the problem, which is doubtable, then the question whether or not Hell is eternal becomes validated.

 

My apologies if I have added an extra spark to this fiery debate. :sl:

 

Wa' salaam

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:sl:

 

O ye who believe! Eat not up your property among yourselves in vanities: But let there be amongst you Traffic and trade by mutual good-will: Nor kill (or destroy) yourselves: for verily Allah hath been to you Most Merciful!

 

If any do that in rancour and injustice,- soon shall We cast them into the Fire: And easy it is for Allah. [4:29-30]

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:sl: sister Layna,

 

I thank you for your input but I'm afraid the ulema are unanimous in their ruling the suicide is not an act of Kufr but rather a major sin.

 

:sl:

 

Thanks for the correction, brother, I actually spoke with my aunt (who has written scholarly books on certain Islamic issues) and she reminded me of a very important ayah:

 

Verily, Allah forgives not that partners should be set up with Him (in worship), but He forgives except that to whom He wills; and whoever sets up partners with Allah in worship, he has indeed invented a tremendous sin. [4:48]

 

This verse in Surat-an-Nisa makes it clear that Allah (if it suits Him) forgives all sins except Shirk (if a person dies in a state of it). I can't for the life of me figure out what made me say otherwise, and I pray that Allah will forgive me for such a grave error.

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:no:

Sorry brother, I didn't quite understand what you meant by that? :sl:

I was just kidding brother...I didn't mean anything by it; I was just trying to make light of the free entertainment we provided yesterday. :sl:

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:sl:

 

Alhamdulillah :sl:

 

My offer still stands if you are interested.

Edited by Muhammad Qadir

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:sl:

 

Alhamdulillah :sl:

 

My offer still stands if you are interested.

No thanks brother...I'm going to pass.

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:ws:

 

:sl:

 

Thanks for the correction, brother, I actually spoke with my aunt (who has written scholarly books on certain Islamic issues) and she reminded me of a very important ayah:

 

Verily, Allah forgives not that partners should be set up with Him (in worship), but He forgives except that to whom He wills; and whoever sets up partners with Allah in worship, he has indeed invented a tremendous sin. [4:48]

 

This verse in Surat-an-Nisa makes it clear that Allah (if it suits Him) forgives all sins except Shirk (if a person dies in a state of it). I can't for the life of me figure out what made me say otherwise, and I pray that Allah will forgive me for such a grave error.

 

Not a problem.

 

Allah (swt) is Ar-Rahman: He forgives all sins. Besides, the insaan is predisposed to forgetfulness, and we all make mistakes as none of us are perfect. The Holy Prophet (saas) alone is flawless.

 

BTW, if I may ask, what books has your aunt written on Islam? I haven't read anything from any female scholars except the works of Aisha Bewley.

 

Jazak Allah khayr wa' salaam

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BTW, if I may ask, what books has your aunt written on Islam? I haven't read anything from any female scholars except the works of Aisha Bewley.

 

Jazak Allah khayr wa' salaam

 

:sl:

 

They're actually in Somali, she wrote them back before or during the civil war in early 1990s (the copies I've seen in her house are aged and deteriorating, as there were no resources to preserve them in beyond the writing). The books are mostly on the issues of women (their roles, duties, etc). She's not widely known outside of our country, but she had the opportunity to attend great Islamic institutions with some of the best Somali scholars, may Allah reward her, and has made quite a name for herself in Somalia.

 

Sorry to everyone for going offtopic.

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