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Odobknarf

Is Hell In Islam Eternal?

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Well...okay, I haven't received any feedback on the structure I proposed to tackle this topic. Yeah, I know too much work. So, here's my 'thesis' if you will.

 

 

Eternal Hell in Islam

Just in case we all missed something all this time

Introduction

 

You know, I’m no scholar…gosh, not even close. But, well…I’ve just had this nagging thought that just won’t go away. It’s sort of like that itch you can’t scratch…know what I mean? This Hell in eternity thing…well…it’s really really been bothering me. Now don’t get me wrong…I mean if that’s what God thinks is fair…well…he’s God, and who am I but only one of his infinite, tiny little creations to argue with Him? I’m nobody. Right?...Right?

 

Well, wait a second…am I questioning God or am I questioning other human beings understanding of what they think God meant? There is a big difference. And I’m pretty sure it’s the latter because as far as I know, none of the scholars have spoken directly to God. I am his creation. And He did give me a mind. And He did ask me to use it. And He does say in the Qur’an that He wants us to reflect and reason. And then, consider this from that great layman’s source, Wikipedia:

 

(the Prophets son-in-law) Ali did say
"except that God bestows understanding of the Qur'an upon a man."
...and Abu Darda' said,
"One cannot [fully] understand the religion until one sees the Qur'an from different perspectives."
... A certain religious scholar said,
"For every Qur'anic verse there are sixty thousand understandings [comprehensible to man]. The understandings of it which remain [incomprehensible to man] are even more than these in number."

So, there it is. I’ve got this idea in my head, and in spite of all the protests I’ve received about my right to question or not, well…here it is…I’m putting it down on ‘paper’. Now, once again, I’m not saying I’m right. This is more of a ‘what if’, back up some form of rationale, and some Qur’anic verses. It doesn’t mean I’m right, it just is what it is. It’s just a “different perspectiveâ€. And it’s a very personal perspective. So read it if you wish…just take it with a grain of salt.

 

I ask Allah to forgive me if I’ve misunderstood, but He knows what’s in my heart better than I, myself do.

 

Peace.

Odobknarf.

 

 

Rationale

 

When I read Abdel Haleem’s english translation of the Qur’an, I couldn’t help but notice whenever Hell is mentioned, more often than not, it is also linked with the Day of Judgment. It keeps saying ‘On this Day’, and ‘the Day’ and ‘Today’. So let’s take a look at some of these verses:

 

37:33-39

"
On that Day
they will all share the torment: this is how we deal with the guilty...you will taste the painful torment, and be
repaid only according to your deeds
."

and

40:16-17

"the Day when they will come out...
Today
each soul will be rewarded for whatever it has done;
today
no injustice will be done. God is swift in reckoning."

 

and

45:34-35

"
Today
we shall ignore you just as you ignored your appointment with this
Day
...They will not be brought out of the Fire on that
Day
, nor will they be given the chance to make amends."

Read them carefully. Do you see what I see? It’s as if God is saying on the Day of Judgment, is when everything happens. And there will be no escape on that Day. On that Day is when everyone destined for Hell will receive their punishment.

 

How long is God’s Day? Well, we don’t know, but it’s a very very long time:

 

70:1-6

"A man (mockingly) demanded the punishment. It will fall on the disbelievers - none can deflect it - from God, the Lord of the Ways of Ascent, by which the angels and the Spirit ascend to Him,
on a Day whose length is fifty thousand years.
So be patient, (Prophet), as befits you. The disbelievers think it is distant, but We know it to be close."

and

32:5

“He runs everything from the heavens to the earth, and everything will ascend to Him in the end,
on a Day that will measure a 1,000 years
by your reckoning.â€

and

57:4

“It was He who created the heavens and the earth
in six Days
and then established Himself on the throne…â€

Well, we know the universe is about 15 billion years old. So, if he created it in 6 days, each Day would be about 2.5 billion years.

 

The point of these examples is that God’s ‘Day’ is a very very long time for us. It could be 1,000 years, it could be 50,000 years, it could be 15 million years or it could be billions of years. Only God knows. But it’s very very long.

 

Perhaps, in this context, the following verse now makes sense:

 

78:21-27

"Hell lies in wait, a home for oppressors to stay in for
a long, long time
, where they will taste no coolness nor drink except one that is scalding and dark - a fitting requital, for they did not fear a reckoning..."

I am suggesting that whenever God says ‘forever’ or ‘permanently’, He is referring to the Day of Judgment. So…‘forever’ on the Day of Judgment, or ‘permanently’ on the Day of Judgment.

 

4:168-169

"God will not forgive those who have disbelieved and do evil, nor will He guide them to any path except that of Hell, where they will
remain forever
- this is easy for God."

and

33:64-66

"God has rejected the disbelievers and prepared a blazing fire for them. There they will
stay permanently
, with no one to befriend or support them. On the
Day
when their faces are being turned about in the Fire, they will say, 'If only we had obeyed God and the Messenger,"

And so, from this point of view, the Day of Judgment will indeed be the resting place for the inhabitants of Hell:

 

7:140

The gates of Heaven will not be open to those who rejected Our revelations and arrogantly spurned them; even if a thick rope were to pass through the eye of a needle they would not enter the Garden. This is how we punish the guilty –
Hell will be their resting place
and their covering, layer upon layer – this is how We punish those who do evil.â€

So, if Hell lasts only for the Day of Judgment (which is a very very long time), what about Heaven? Does it too last only for the Day of Judgment?

 

Well, we don’t know…but there are clues. Look very closesly at the following verse:

 

11:106-108

"The wretched ones will be in the Fire, signing and groaning,
there to remain for as long as the heavens and earth endure
, unless your Lord wills otherwise: your Lord carries out whatever He wills. As for those who have been blessed, they will be in Paradise,
there to remain as long as the heavens and earth endure
, unless your Lord wills otherwise -
an unceasing gift
."

This is a back to back comparison of Hell and Heaven. They are mirror opposites. Or are they? No…not quite. There is a very key difference. When describing heaven, God speaks of an “unceasing giftâ€. When describing Hell, God does not say “an unceasing punishmentâ€. Remember, this is a back to back comparison - and God has clearly marked out a difference. And this difference makes sense because we know God is infinite in bounty, but punishes people only according to their deeds, as described by the following verse:

 

6:160

"whoever has done
a good deed will have it ten times to his credit
, but whoever has done
a bad deed will be repaid only with its equivalent
- they will not be wronged".

So, there seems to be a suggestion here, that punishment for those in Hell will eventually end, but reward for people will not.

 

So, what happens after the Day of Judgment, whoever long it may be?

 

Well…nobody knows. There are no clues, not at least in the Qur’an. Will God end Hell and allow only Heaven to continue? Or will He end both and make a new creation? Nobody knows…it would be merely speculation. But what I have presented, is based on the verses and the interpretation that I ‘saw’ or ‘felt’. It is by no means necessarily true, but it is another perspective.

 

So, any hadith, that discuss Hell being forever – my response will be “yes…forever on the Day of Judgmentâ€.

 

Peace.

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PropellerAds

:sl:

 

I guess you got your information from here? (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Tafsir"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Tafsir[/url]

 

You should scroll down a little.

 

Criticism

 

Praise for al-Ghazali not withstanding, he also received criticism from within Islam:

 

Ibn Taymiyyah states:

 

“ If we assume that someone narrated the view of the salaf but what he narrated is far removed from what the view of the salaf actually is, then he has little knowledge of the view of the salaf, such as Abu’l-Ma’aali, Abu Hamid al-Ghazali, Ibn al-Khateeb and the like, who did not have enough knowledge of hadith to qualify them as ordinary scholars of hadith, let alone as prominent scholars in that field. For none of these people had any knowledge of al-Bukhari and Muslim and their hadiths, apart from what they heard, which is similar to the situation of the ordinary Muslim, who cannot distinguish between a hadiith which is regarded as sahih and mutawatir according to the scholars of hadith, and a hadith which is fabricated and false. Their books bear witness to that, for they contain strange things and most of these scholars of ‘ilm al-kalam (science of kalam) and Sufis who have drifted away from the path of the salaf admit that, either at the time of death or before death. There are many such well-known stories. This Abu Hamid al-Ghazali, despite his brilliance, his devotion to Allah, his knowledge of kalam and philosophy, his asceticism and spiritual practices and his Sufism, ended up in a state of confusion and resorted to the path of those who claim to find out things through dreams and spiritual methods."[21] ”

 

Similarly, Imam an-Nawawi wrote in his one of his books:

 

“ Imam al-Ghazali was denounced in his books which were unacceptable to the scholars of his madhab and others, namely his odd statements such as what he said in Muqaddimat al-Mantiq at the beginning of al-Mustasfa: ‘This is the introduction to all knowledge, and whoever does not learn this, his knowledge cannot be trusted at all. ”

 

[citation needed]

 

In addition, Abu 'Umar ibn as-Salah, a well-known Shafi'i scholar wrote:

 

“ A lot has been said about Abu Hamid, and a lot has been narrated from him. As for these books (meaning al-Ghazali’s books which contradict the truth) no attention should be paid to them. As for the man himself, we should keep quiet about him, and refer his case to Allah."[22] ”

 

Ibn Rushd (Averroes), a rationalist, famously responded that "to say that philosophers are incoherent is itself to make an incoherent statement."[citation needed] Rushd's book, The Incoherence of the Incoherence, attempted to refute Al-Ghazali's views, though the work was not well received in the Muslim community.[citation needed]

 

Al-Ghazali is also accused for using or mentioning weak Hadiths in his book Ihya'ul Ulumuddin (The Revival of Religious Sciences).

 

 

Response to criticism

 

While many of the hadiths contained in Ihya Uloom ad-Deen are weak or fabricated, many of these were prevalent hadith at the time.[citation needed] Abdul-Fattāh Abu Ghuddah states: "Imam Ghazali was unique in regards to the knowledge of Jurisprudence, its principles, Tasawwuf, beliefs, philosophy and others except for the knowledge of Hadith, for verily he did not spare time to master it".[23] Al-Ghazali has mentioned regarding himself, "And my knowledge of Hadith is but scanty."[24]

Edited by Muhammad Qadir

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:sl:

 

I guess you got your information from here? (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Tafsir"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Tafsir[/url]

 

You should scroll down a little.

 

Criticism

 

Praise for al-Ghazali not withstanding, he also received criticism from within Islam:

 

...

...

...

 

True...I'm sure there are many scholars on both side of the fence regarding al-Ghazali. However, note 2 things:

 

1. I didn't use the hadith at all as the basis for my thesis. I formed by argument, strictly from the verses from the Qur'an itself. So, if there are holes in my thesis...it's up to you to provide it, as it relates to my specific thesis. Also, my thesis reconciles all 5 verse categories...so it is all encompassing. It also addresses any potential hadith by saying 'forever' refers to 'forever on the Day of judgment'.

 

2. I openly state that I may very well be wrong, that I am no scholar, and I am presenting an alternate view, based on the rationale presented.

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True...I'm sure there are many scholars on both side of the fence regarding al-Ghazali. However, note 2 things:

 

1. I didn't use the hadith at all as the basis for my thesis. I formed by argument, strictly from the verses from the Qur'an itself. So, if there are holes in my thesis...it's up to you to provide it, as it relates to my specific thesis. Also, my thesis reconciles all 5 verse categories...so it is all encompassing. It also addresses any potential hadith by saying 'forever' refers to 'forever on the Day of judgment'.

 

2. I openly state that I may very well be wrong, that I am no scholar, and I am presenting an alternate view, based on the rationale presented.

 

Peace

 

I have reviewed all the post and did not see this information used.

 

 

Al-'Aqidah At-Tahawiyah

 

Those of the Ummah of Muhammad, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, who have committed grave sins will be in the Fire, but not forever, provided they die and meet Allah as believers affirming His unity even if they have not repented. They are subject to His will and judgement. If He wants, He will forgive them and pardon them out of His generosity, as is mentionied in the Qur'an when He says: `And He forgives anything less than that (shirk) to whoever He wills' [an-Nisa' 4: 116]; and if He wants, He will punish them in the Fire out of His justice and then bring them out of the Fire through His mercy, and for the intercession of those who were obedient to Him, and send them to the Garden. This is because Allah is the Protector of those who recognize Him and will not treat them in the Next World in the same way as He treats those who deny Him and who are bereft of His guidance and have failed to obtain His protection. O Allah, You are the Protector of Islam and its people; make us firm in Islam until the day we meet You.

 

 

 

Bukhari Volumn 001, Book 002, Hadith Number 021.

-----------------------------------------

Narated By Abu Said Al-Khudri : The Prophet said, "When the people of Paradise will enter Paradise and the people of Hell will go to Hell, Allah will order those who have had faith equal to the weight of a grain of mustard seed to be taken out from Hell. So they will be taken out but (by then) they will be blackened (charred). Then they will be put in the river of Haya' (rain) or Hayat (life) (the Narrator is in doubt as to which is the right term), and they will revive like a grain that grows near the bank of a flood channel. Don't you see that it comes out yellow and twisted."

 

 

Peace

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Peace

 

I have reviewed all the post and did not see this information used.

Al-'Aqidah At-Tahawiyah

 

Those of the Ummah of Muhammad, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, who have committed grave sins will be in the Fire, but not forever, provided they die and meet Allah as believers affirming His unity even if they have not repented. They are subject to His will and judgement. If He wants, He will forgive them and pardon them out of His generosity, as is mentionied in the Qur'an when He says: `And He forgives anything less than that (shirk) to whoever He wills' [an-Nisa' 4: 116]; and if He wants, He will punish them in the Fire out of His justice and then bring them out of the Fire through His mercy, and for the intercession of those who were obedient to Him, and send them to the Garden. This is because Allah is the Protector of those who recognize Him and will not treat them in the Next World in the same way as He treats those who deny Him and who are bereft of His guidance and have failed to obtain His protection. O Allah, You are the Protector of Islam and its people; make us firm in Islam until the day we meet You.

Bukhari Volumn 001, Book 002, Hadith Number 021.

AA brother,

 

This was actually covered in a much earlier post...but thanks for pointing it out again because this clarifies any misunderstandings. It is true that all believers will get out, as per the hadith, you quoted. What I am proposing, is that the believers will get out, by way of intercession as just described, throughout the Day of Judgment - it being itself a very very long time - leaving only the kaffirs behind. But when the day of Judgment is over, which could be thousands of years or millions or even billions of years - we don't know...then what will happen. Let me use another quote:

 

3:185

"Every soul will taste death and you will be repaid in full only on the Day of Resurrection."

 

So, my argument is, that since we will be repaid in full, in its entirety, on the Day of Resurrection itself - which is one way to interpret this verse - that eventually punishment must end in Hell, even for the worst of people, because the Day of Resurrection must come to an end at some point, however long it may be. So in this way, Hell is forever, forever in the sense, that it will exist forever on the Day of Judgment, yet at the same time, it is limited, limited to the length of the Day of Judgment.

 

Peace.

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Why do people rely on Ibn Taymiyyah that much ?

This is a very good question. I think those that have studied and rely on the hadith for their answers are in a better position to answer it. I actually am very much interested in the answer myself; as the hadith is my next phase in development in Islam; God williing.

 

My view on intercession above is primarily based on the Qur'an which says two things (and I will need time to find these verses):

 

1. That God will accept intercession, according to His will, from amongst those who speak the truth.

2. That He forgives everyone except those who do not believe in Him or associate partners with Him.

 

The hadith provided so far in this thread, generally support the Qur'an in this regard.

 

Peace.

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Why do people rely on Ibn Taymiyyah that much ?

 

:sl:

 

If you don't agree with what he has said, (and the other scholars) please say so brother.

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AA brother,

 

This was actually covered in a much earlier post...but thanks for pointing it out again because this clarifies any misunderstandings. It is true that all believers will get out, as per the hadith, you quoted. What I am proposing, is that the believers will get out, by way of intercession as just described, throughout the Day of Judgment - it being itself a very very long time - leaving only the kaffirs behind. But when the day of Judgment is over, which could be thousands of years or millions or even billions of years - we don't know...then what will happen. Let me use another quote:

 

3:185

"Every soul will taste death and you will be repaid in full only on the Day of Resurrection."

 

So, my argument is, that since we will be repaid in full, in its entirety, on the Day of Resurrection itself - which is one way to interpret this verse - that eventually punishment must end in Hell, even for the worst of people, because the Day of Resurrection must come to an end at some point, however long it may be. So in this way, Hell is forever, forever in the sense, that it will exist forever on the Day of Judgment, yet at the same time, it is limited, limited to the length of the Day of Judgment.

 

Peace.

 

Salaam

 

I think I understand what you are speaking about, what is being presented is that believers will be taken out, you are saying that kafir will have paid thier debt ¿ also ?

and if this is so will all be released, This is one of the matters of which Allah(swt) says the answer to this is soley with me, I will not reveal the hidden. ( it his choice to do it or not )

 

This is some speculation:

Some say that a weight of a musturd seed is acutally Allah (swt) judgement, you see all humans even the worst were born with fitrah (the nature of good) this maybe the powerful weight. Also it has been said that the kafir point ( that they will not get out ) was made as a deterent.

 

I do not know, Allah knows best, there are many interpritations.

 

Is matter being discussed because of someones fears, or someone wanting to live kufir and then know he eventually be set free from hell?

 

All I say is do not let this argument go to the Allegorical, this would increase the desease of the heart.

 

Salaam

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...

...

...

 

I do not know, Allah knows best, there are many interpritations.

 

...

...

...

AA brother...you are a wise indeed.

 

And I think that's been my point for quite some time now. The long established view by scholars is that Hell is for eternity for the kaffirs. But in fact, there may be many different interpretations. I presented one and backed it with verse upon verse from the Qur'an, which no one in this forum has yet refuted, based on the rationale I presented.

 

It isn't even that I agree with my thesis. But I am illustrating a point by presenting it...which is that it may be folly to say Hell is definitively for eternity, and it may be equally folly to definitively say it is for a limited amount of time. None of us can no God's mind.

 

Indeed, "Allah knows best".

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AA brother...you are a wise indeed.

 

And I think that's been my point for quite some time now. The long established view by scholars is that Hell is for eternity for the kaffirs. But in fact, there may be many different interpretations. I presented one and backed it with verse upon verse from the Qur'an, which no one in this forum has yet refuted, based on the rationale I presented.

 

It isn't even that I agree with my thesis. But I am illustrating a point by presenting it...which is that it may be folly to say Hell is definitively for eternity, and it may be equally folly to definitively say it is for a limited amount of time. None of us can no God's mind.

 

Indeed, "Allah knows best".

 

Salaam

 

I thank you for your comment.

 

I have read on another part of this forum you will be leaving it, I would like if you stayed we could speak about more things of intrest, I am not a teacher, but I read and study alot.

 

and we have some earthly things in common I run a small business also in mexico I too left a forum for the same reason awhile back.

 

the other topics you will post in your blog are of intrest to me.

 

I do not wish to change Islam, but I do want to understand it without fear or pressure.

 

Walaikum Salaam

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Salaam

 

I thank you for your comment.

 

I have read on another part of this forum you will be leaving it, I would like if you stayed we could speak about more things of intrest, I am not a teacher, but I read and study alot.

 

and we have some earthly things in common I run a small business also in mexico I too left a forum for the same reason awhile back.

 

the other topics you will post in your blog are of intrest to me.

 

I do not wish to change Islam, but I do want to understand it without fear or pressure.

 

Walaikum Salaam

 

Thanks brother...I really needed to hear that...for the most part, it's been pretty lonely out here (I think you know what I mean). But then again, God does want us to be steadfast, doesn't He?

 

Yes, twice now I've indicated or suggested I was going to either leave or slow down my post entries in this forum. But here I am, just as active as ever. And I have to tell you, it's taking its toll on me. It's usurping my emotional energies from other things in life. On the one hand, I'm trying to determine whether this is the best way to use my time and energy, while at the same time, I honestly seem to be hooked on this forum.

 

It's not an easy situation, especially when you have a very different or even 'innovative approach' to Islam, but meanwhile you are faced with very conservative Islam, which by its nature, doesn't like individuals questioning it. I've tried my best to apply reason, and a whole lot of patience, but it is wearing me out.

 

Your words have probably come in the knick of time because I do have a dream: I want to contribute to start the process of change in the Islamic world for the better - for the sake of Allah. I have an idea of what needs to be done to do that. I know it requires nothing less than a grassroots movement; literally from the ground up. And I know the movement will face stiff opposition, mostly from within the orthodox arm of the Ummah itself. And the movement, even if it started now, would take a hundred years or so before it began to have a significant impact. But then, if you were to trace the decay of Islam, it actually goes back about 700 or 800 years.

 

On this note, I had a discussion with my brother earlier today about taking leave from our business to pursue Islamic studies with the aim of acquiring enough knowledge, to be able to begin this movement; maybe using the internet as a platform for global reach for example. It's too early to tell - I'm just trying to get my bearings right now.

 

In the meantime...thank you. I'll stick around for a while...I just don't know how long. It's just a dream.

 

Peace.

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Thanks brother...I really needed to hear that...for the most part, it's been pretty lonely out here (I think you know what I mean). But then again, God does want us to be steadfast, doesn't He?

 

I have been told that thier are no coincidences in life, all has its time and purpose, this may be ours. Patience with intelligence will always be a virtue.

Yes, twice now I've indicated or suggested I was going to either leave or slow down my post entries in this forum. But here I am, just as active as ever. And I have to tell you, it's taking its toll on me. It's usurping my emotional energies from other things in life. On the one hand, I'm trying to determine whether this is the best way to use my time and energy, while at the same time, I honestly seem to be hooked on this forum.

 

Slow down your post yes its ok, leave you shouldnt, you have the attention of many folks here. Even if they dont say it they are learning. some times you have to get angry before you start to think and sometimes this has to be provoked. A true believer no matter how angry he gets he must show love for his brother. And to my brothers when they get angry think: "Avoid, Avoid hurting your brothers with your touge or your hands"

It's not an easy situation, especially when you have a very different or even 'innovative approach' to Islam, but meanwhile you are faced with very conservative Islam, which by its nature, doesn't like individuals questioning it. I've tried my best to apply reason, and a whole lot of patience, but it is wearing me out.

 

Your view is not innovative (new), I see it as the very old, in fact it is said that towards the end of time the muslim not the true believers would not even reconize thier own religion. (there is reference to this I will find it again). This may get me in trouble (I realy hope not I like this forum), but something is happening and alot of people are aware of it,or these new questions about Quran vs Hadith ect..would not exsist.

It is happening in other forums, but there are some forums really closed, I think this place is more liberal, then I could be wrong, time will tell.

 

Your words have probably come in the knick of time because I do have a dream: I want to contribute to start the process of change in the Islamic world for the better - for the sake of Allah. I have an idea of what needs to be done to do that. I know it requires nothing less than a grassroots movement; literally from the ground up. And I know the movement will face stiff opposition, mostly from within the orthodox arm of the Ummah itself. And the movement, even if it started now, would take a hundred years or so before it began to have a significant impact. But then, if you were to trace the decay of Islam, it actually goes back about 700 or 800 years.

 

Brother your endurance has earn you the right of recieving support, and it is not a dream, I will help you if you wish, I am a servant to MY UMMAH, the sleepers have awakened. No need to change Islam, just the peoples understanding (concepts) of it. The opposition will be from personal intrest groups not MY UMMAH, I say MY UMMAH because if it is yours you will care for it, even with your life. Trust Allah (swt) he can make it happen in one day, or lengthen it to your benefit (one blessing for trying and two if sucessful).

 

On this note, I had a discussion with my brother earlier today about taking leave from our business to pursue Islamic studies with the aim of acquiring enough knowledge, to be able to begin this movement; maybe using the internet as a platform for global reach for example. It's too early to tell - I'm just trying to get my bearings right now.

 

I think what you need are other brothers and sisters who already have the knowledge but are not hemd in by dogma (if this is the right word), and there are already complied information for sources I would not leave the work, it can serve as a release from the new task. On this forum are very bright indiviuals I been reading many post.

 

In the meantime...thank you. I'll stick around for a while...I just don't know how long. It's just a dream.

 

What I would recommend to the forum leader as a unifide task (for those intrested) lets look at what we consider wrong and try to find a way to discuss it for a unified solution. (how to revive MY UMMAH, step by step and point by point)

 

Peace.

 

Walaikum Salaam Rahmatulla Wabarakatu

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I have been told that thier are no coincidences in life, all has its time and purpose, this may be ours. Patience with intelligence will always be a virtue.

By definition this must be true...if not a leaf falls off a tree without God's knowledge, then how can a coincidence possibly occur that wasn't preordained (no, we're not going to get into the free will debate).

 

"Avoid, Avoid hurting your brothers with your touge or your hands"

I'm really working on this...but I do have a very long way to go.

 

Your view is not innovative (new), I see it as the very old, in fact it is said that towards the end of time the muslim not the true believers would not even reconize thier own religion. (there is reference to this I will find it again). This may get me in trouble (I realy hope not I like this forum), but something is happening and alot of people are aware of it,or these new questions about Quran vs Hadith ect..would not exsist.

It is happening in other forums, but there are some forums really closed, I think this place is more liberal, then I could be wrong, time will tell.

I'm going to have to take your word for it...because this is my very first forum and I've only been on it for a month.

 

Brother your endurance has earn you the right of recieving support, and it is not a dream, I will help you if you wish, I am a servant to MY UMMAH, the sleepers have awakened. No need to change Islam, just the peoples understanding (concepts) of it. The opposition will be from personal intrest groups not MY UMMAH, I say MY UMMAH because if it is yours you will care for it, even with your life. Trust Allah (swt) he can make it happen in one day, or lengthen it to your benefit (one blessing for trying and two if sucessful).

I happily and graciously accept your help. You're right, there is no need to change Islam, only the peoples understanding of it...including improving and correcting my own. Sister Redeem, for example, is doing a good job of correcting me right now in the "torture in grave" thread. Yes, I'm willing to put my life on the line to protect God's Ummah - I've got life insurance after all. The Qur'an says to consult, and then once you've made up your mind on a course of action, to put your trust in God.

 

I think what you need are other brothers and sisters who already have the knowledge but are not hemd in by dogma (if this is the right word), and there are already complied information for sources I would not leave the work, it can serve as a release from the new task. On this forum are very bright indiviuals I been reading many post.

Yes, you're right...we need brothers and sisters like each other, and those who have been gifted with more knowledge to guide more rightly. So you think I should continue with my work...I'll have to think about it...in my experience, half measures usually don't work.

 

What I would recommend to the forum leader as a unifide task (for those intrested) lets look at what we consider wrong and try to find a way to discuss it for a unified solution. (how to revive MY UMMAH, step by step and point by point)

 

Yes...I've been advocating this for sometime now. I'm in if you're in. All the discussions are really meaningless at the end of the day, if it isn't tranlsated into real, beneficial action. We'll have to think carefully, thoroughly and I would say, even boldly, on how to proceed.

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I presented one and backed it with verse upon verse from the Qur'an, which no one in this forum has yet refuted, based on the rationale I presented.

 

:sl:

 

No one has yet refuted your opinions? Not one of the fifteen or so people who have posted in this topic? Interesting.

 

One trend that I have noticed in all the theories you have proposed as of yet (both in this topic and in others) is that you usually present a very big legal opinion on an issue, and then support it with verses that do anything BUT support you. You arrive at conclusions that are not actually stated in the Qur'an. For example your theories are either "If it does not clearly say X, then it must inarguably be Y" or "If it says X, then Y is also true". Never "It says X, therefore X is correct".

 

1: In the case of verses that say "A long time". Forever is a long time, is it not? However, you are using these verses as meaning "temporary". It does not say temporary. There isn't a single verse that says Hell is temporary. You have taken it upon yourself to interprete "long time" as "temporary", and this really isn't "backing up with verse upon verse". This is misinterpreting a word to mean something it does not.

 

2: In the case of verses that speak of punishment on the Day of Judgement, can you point out ONE, (not two, not three) just ONE verse that says Hellfire is limited to the Day of Judgement? If a judge in court tells a criminal "On this day, you will be placed in jail", would it be logical for someone to argue "What about the next day? It doesn't say that he will be in jail longer than a day". Which is the same exact arguement you are making.

 

On the other hand, there is a verse that says "Forever". Yes, it does say forever in Arabic, and forever in English. And yet, you have turned a blind eye to this verse and continue to argue that Hell is not forever.

 

So I ask you clearly. How can Hell be anything but eternal when Allah uses the word "Forever" in reference to it? Unless you want to argue that Allah meant anything BUT forever? Unless forever is also as temporary as "a long time"?

 

Innal Mujrimeena (the criminals, sinners) Fee 'adaabi Jahanama (will be in the torment of Hellfire) khalidun (forever).

 

Khalidun means forever, eternity. Khalid, a common Arabic/Muslim name means Eternal.

 

My dear brother, if you still believe that torture in Hellfire is not eternal, it is not because of poor refutation on the part of those who have already posted in this topic. It is because you do not wish to accept that you have been proven wrong.

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Sister Redeem, now you've got me laughing. :no: What's funny is when I specifically asked for a response on this very same thread earlier on, I got silence...and now when there is nothing but silence for almost 3 weeks I get response. I guess you're a proponent of reverse psychology. In that case, you're right...hell is forever. :sl:

 

Now I could easily address your post above...but then I would risk this thread going on forever...when in fact, all threads are for a limited time. :sl:

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Sister Redeem, now you've got me laughing. :D What's funny is when I specifically asked for a response on this very same thread earlier on, I got silence...and now when there is nothing but silence for almost 3 weeks I get response. I guess you're a proponent of reverse psychology. In that case, you're right...hell is forever. :j:

 

Now I could easily address your post above...but then I would risk this thread going on forever...when in fact, all threads are for a limited time. :sl:

 

:no:

 

Well, excuse me for getting sidetracked! :sl:

 

To be honest, I was in a slump earlier on in the month about debates, but I've been in the mood lately. And things have died down in the atheist side of the forum, so I didn't have many choices. :D

 

I'll drop this issue...for now. Kidding, heh.

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