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A Message To Non-muslims

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brother seacow,

 

Thank you for your opinion above. Islam and Muslims are being insulted, framed and slandered by the enemies of Islam.

 

 

With all due respect, I don't know that what you say is always the case. There are many people who don't understand Islam or have inaccurate information about Islam. Also there are many who have been told that Islam is "bad" or "evil". And then there are those who are members of other faiths who simply disagree with Islam and believe that their belief system is superior. Some times when these people express their views, it may come off as "slander" or an "insult", but that not neccessarily the case. It could just be bad information on their part.

 

I'm not saying that Islam has no enemies; I'm sure it does. However, I have noticed that many faiths (including Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) sometimes tend to view people who express contrary views as "enemies", when sometimes they are merely expressing their opinion, however inaccurate.

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No they don't! Men, women can and do wear pants, shorts, t-shirts, jeans etc...

 

 

...Breasts are generally regarded in a sexual manner in the US which is why revealing them in public is unlawful. Men revealing their sexual organs are regarded in the same way.

 

I know this is late, but I hadn't seen the response to my post until now.

 

In one breath you have stated that men and women adhere to the same dress standards, and in the next, you said there are differences because of sexual organs. That was my point; the anatomy of men and women is not treated the same even in the west. I rest my case, really.

 

Salam.

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Asserting it's principles over somebody is a dangerous expedition - I feel shocked when the so-called Western civilization is going through all sexual escapades, sexual lifestyles, drug addictions, teen-age moms aka single moms nude beaches, gambling etc BUT they love to show their "sysmapthy" in whatever is happening in Muslim worlds.

 

Islamic principles specially the sensitive issues like women and sexuality teaches us that they should be dealt with respect this can be seen from one single principle that if you want to scold somebody do it in private. We do not have any problems with half naked ladies strolling in the street, this ofcourse is your problem BUT than leave us alone.

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In every "declining" nation, in and in case of US a "fast-declining" Empire turning into a Republic is showing every sign there is of decay. I am not against US but whatever I am saying is historically proven and recorded among history books.

 

Arnold Toynbee was quite honest when he declared:

 

“Western civilization is aiming at nothing less than

the incorporation of all of mankind in a single great society and the

control of everything in the earth, air and sea . . .â€

(Toynbee, Civilization on Trial, p-166)

 

Professor Carroll Quigley was very elaborate about the signs being showed by a decaying nation, I will let you know as I recall my memory:

 

* ) Involving the populace overwhelmingly in activities like sports

* ) Give free-hand to people in sex, offer alternatives

*) Blow to proportions ordinary matters like Mickey Mouse's Birthday, Madonna's next spouse, Uma Thurman's shopping spree blah blah

 

There were altogether some 8-10 points I can't recall but if you want I can give you the name of the book, which would be very informative for you

please define " declining" in declining nation and why I should care if a nation declines or rises in those parameters that you define as good for a nation to rise or decline in. Edited by xocoti

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Asserting it's principles over somebody is a dangerous expedition - I feel shocked when the so-called Western civilization is going through all sexual escapades, sexual lifestyles, drug addictions, teen-age moms aka single moms nude beaches, gambling etc BUT they love to show their "sysmapthy" in whatever is happening in Muslim worlds.

 

Islamic principles specially the sensitive issues like women and sexuality teaches us that they should be dealt with respect this can be seen from one single principle that if you want to scold somebody do it in private. We do not have any problems with half naked ladies strolling in the street, this ofcourse is your problem BUT than leave us alone.

This may seem to be a contradiction: Christianity is not “trying†to keep people from sinning that want to sin, but does try to protect the innocent. Sin has an objective for the non Christian, but there is nothing fulfilled with the Christian sinning.

 

This does not mean sin is “good†and the sinner does not hurt others innocent people, but sin is inevitable in all mature adults (except Christ) and is needed to help people fulfill their objective.

 

The sins you mentioned are no worse than spending money on an unneeded expensive car and not giving that money to the needy.

 

These “outwardly obvious sins†cause a lot of pain and heart ache that can be easily seen, while greed and selfishness are hidden.

 

The desire and hope for the “sinner†is to reach that bottom point that will cause them to seek Spiritual help since sex, drugs, money, and whatever else is not helping. That person can only turn to God for forgiveness to receive relief.

I do not like what is happening in this nation and world, but this is not my home (heaven) and what is happening is exactly what is described in scripture and to be expected and will not change here on earth.

 

I am to be helping those that have been brought low by this sinful world and want help.

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Peace Seacow!

I know this is a message to non-Muslims, but I just wanted to thank you sincerely for this post.

I truly appreciate it and hope that others can try to see things from your perspective. If more people thought like you, this world would be a better place.

 

While I try to be respectful, I am not a Muslim and don't know all the "ins and outs" of what you find respectful and disrespectful. In my culture people can have heated arguments and still be friends / like each other. Some things are obviously disrespectful. On many boards there is an ignore feature which allows you to ignore users who are routinely disrespectful or who you simply do not want to listen to. People will always find offense in a huge range of opinions that other people may not find offensive. An ignore feature allows you to tailor your audience to your individual level of tolerance, as few people have the same level of tolerance. Expecting "everyone" to abide to "everyone else's" perception of "respect" is an ideal that is practically impossible.

 

If people come on here and deliberately harass/disrespect you then you should be able to ban or ignore them.

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Pointless. If this forum is just so like minded Muslims can [censored] about how much Allah rules, then whats the point of having it. You can just go to the Masjid for that. I'm not here to be respectful to anything other than a good argument. Of course, someone who isn't an atheist will have to post one first. Just kidding.

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I searched long and hard for this board so that I could find a community of individuals who adhere to the Islamic creed so that I could further my own understanding of the religion. Also, in compliance with the general tone of message boards, I was interested in finding Muslim responses to questions regarding society, religion, and politics. I suspect that if you are here, and you are here for tolerable reasons, then you are much like me. Let me pass on some advice so that you can avoid mistakes that myself and others make.

1. This is their house. If you wish to know more about Islam, ask. If you are trying to prove the religion wrong, then you are in the wrong place. Be mindful of the questions that you ask. Are they respectful? Are the on the offensive? Read them as if they are countering something you believe, and err on the side of caution. Always remember that they answer your questions out of their courtesy, and that they are not obligated to put up with disrespect in a place of their own.

2. Islam is the most slandered religion in the world right now From religious pulpit to political podium Islam is constantly lambasted and attacked. There are several people who wish to divide the Islamic community, or discredit it, or using several other methods represent Islam in a way that is false and unfair. Make sure that when you ask questions, you are careful to avoid sounding like the detractors of Islam. Do not point out divisions in the community, or attempt to divide it further. Do not accuse them of the oppression of women, rather ask how the Koran requests women are treated. Understand the difference between culture and religion, as you may be surprised how many of the things Westerners object to today is due to cultural laws rather than religious ones, and how regarding many different civil rights, Islam was hundreds of years ahead of Christians and Jews at the time of its conception. People here are used to being attacked, and if you sound harsh or critical, it is likely that this will impede your capacity to learn what you want from this site, so be conscious when posting things that are reflective of attacks on Islam.

3. Islam is a lifestyle, not a hobby A friend of mine teased me last night for being agnostic, and it was easy for me to take seeing as how this is a stance I use to answer one question that doesn't encompass a great deal of my life. However, Islam is a lifestyle, to be taken seriously in everything that you do, not just in abstract discussions of religion. Therefore, keep this in mind when you try to learn specific facts about Islam. Pastafarianism may seem hilarious to someone who doesn't think religion is important, but if your life is guided by religion then it may seem irreverent, insulting, and immature. Keep things like this in mind when you are discussing with people the things that are most important to them. A good rule of thumb is if you don't know if it is going to be well received, ask a moderator.

4 Expect differences I think that everyone who comes here will be offended at least once by something they read from a distinctly different culture. Questioning the holocaust is an excellent example of this, as it is something that Westerners are not accustomed to doing. Keep an open mind while browsing, listen rather than responding immediately, and try to understand rather than to disagree. Things are different here, and some of the things we are going to object to. If we face this with an open mind ready to learn and understand, rather than with instant revulsion, we can be sure that we will get along properly.

5 Celebrate the Diversity Islam has brought us Algebra, several contributions to astronomy, botany, hospitals among other medical advances, art, rich music, and cultural sophistications that can be found nowhere else in the world. Islam freed slaves over a thousand years before Europe and America decided it was wrong. They also translated and pondered our Greek philosophers while the whole Western world decided to be ignorant for several hundred years. Islam is a wonderful religion, the Middle East is a center of amazing cultures, and I encourage you to recognize, enjoy, and understand the contributions and diversity they bring to our world. Above all, let us attempt to understand each other, for a better world

-seacow

 

 

 

 

 

MASLLAH GREAT WORK BROTEHR

 

MAY Allah INREASE OUR FAITH AND GUIDE ALL THE NON-MUSLSIM TO ALLAHS PATH

 

BILLION TIMES AMEEN

 

 

 

 

 

 

AND INCREASE ALL THE PEOPLE WHO HAVENT HOUGT OF CONVERTING TO THIS BEAUIFTEIL RELIGION OF Allah

 

 

AMEEN

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Pointless. If this forum is just so like minded Muslims can [censored] about how much Allah rules, then whats the point of having it. You can just go to the Masjid for that. I'm not here to be respectful to anything other than a good argument. Of course, someone who isn't an atheist will have to post one first. Just kidding.

 

what exactly is a good argument to you? :sl:

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I can't believe what I've just seen next to a thread on tolerance. A boycott israel banner! Are you mad?! How could you be so hypocritical? You have completely undermined any sensible argument or statement you may make. I am sure that as an atheist I may not be the best informed individual posting in this forum but I may very well be the most objective. I find it remarkable, and rather worrying, that anyone could allow this faux pas to go uncorrected. I think is just illustrates the dual standards practiced in religion – you mustn't criticise my religion but I can advocate the eschewing of an entire race.

For a religion whose members constantly claim to be persecuted it is astonishingly imprudent to publicly condemn others out of hatred.

I really do think that you need to take a close look at yourselves before calling others bigots.

 

How is that racist or hypocritical? I know plenty of Atheists, Agnostics, etc. who are pro-Palestinian and do boycot israeli products.

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I just joined this Forum for many of the same reasons as Seacow. I am an atheist and would be happy to explain my own lack of belief if, and only if, that is not seen as an improper attempt to "convert" anybody. I believe in the American First Amendment Right to religious freedom for everybody on the planet. Most of my private concerns with Islam all involve those Muslims who seek to impose their own views on others. or those who have religious views that involve harming others in the name of religion or Allah. I am especially distubed by so-called "honor killings" which, I believe, dishonor the family more than any behavior of the child killed ever could. I hope many of you here agree.

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1. This is their house. If you wish to know more about Islam, ask. If you are trying to prove the religion wrong, then you are in the wrong place. Be mindful of the questions that you ask. Are they respectful? Are the on the offensive? Read them as if they are countering something you believe, and err on the side of caution. Always remember that they answer your questions out of their courtesy, and that they are not obligated to put up with disrespect in a place of their own.

 

"Be mindful" means what?

What is "respectful"?

Why can't a question be "offensive"?

Why should a religious belief be treated differently than any other belief? I don't need to insult anyone to ask a question and nobody should feel offended if anyone asks a question. If anyone is easily offended, don't look around. Anyone is welcome to come to my house and talk about anything. Why should that offend me? Anyone is welcome to come to my house and question my beliefs. And if I can't answer or don't have a reason to believe what I believe I will stop believing it. Simple, really.

 

 

2. Islam is the most slandered religion in the world right now From religious pulpit to political podium Islam is constantly lambasted and attacked. There are several people who wish to divide the Islamic community, or discredit it, or using several other methods represent Islam in a way that is false and unfair. Make sure that when you ask questions, you are careful to avoid sounding like the detractors of Islam. Do not point out divisions in the community, or attempt to divide it further. Do not accuse them of the oppression of women, rather ask how the Koran requests women are treated. Understand the difference between culture and religion, as you may be surprised how many of the things Westerners object to today is due to cultural laws rather than religious ones, and how regarding many different civil rights, Islam was hundreds of years ahead of Christians and Jews at the time of its conception. People here are used to being attacked, and if you sound harsh or critical, it is likely that this will impede your capacity to learn what you want from this site, so be conscious when posting things that are reflective of attacks on Islam.

 

Islam is a system and a concept. If I voice my opinion, why is this an "attack"? I am not insulting Muslims at all. How can criticising or questioning the contents of the Koran be seen as an "attack"? Why all this militant vocabulary?

If I point out that a ritual is based in culture and not the Koran I am bound to be insulted. If I question a ritual or cultural instance to find out whether I am right in thinking this is cultural I am called Islam-hater.

 

If it is true that Islam is being constantly slandered and Muslims are being "attacked" and "persecuted" everywhere, has anyone wondered why this could be? Has anyone asked an atheist why Islam is given such a bad rap? Where is the line between religious belief and the quest for truth?

 

If I see these absolute claims made in above paragraph, such as that Islam was ahead of its time regarding civil rights, I laugh. Anyone doing just cursory research will find this laughable. So what am I supposed to do? Which option is best and acceptable?

1. Accept it anyway and ignore reality?

2. Ask why Muslims think that civil rights were ahead of its time, even though I have read and heard the arguments many times?

3. Show why it is wrong to claim this?

 

 

 

3. Islam is a lifestyle, not a hobby A friend of mine teased me last night for being agnostic, and it was easy for me to take seeing as how this is a stance I use to answer one question that doesn't encompass a great deal of my life. However, Islam is a lifestyle, to be taken seriously in everything that you do, not just in abstract discussions of religion. Therefore, keep this in mind when you try to learn specific facts about Islam. Pastafarianism may seem hilarious to someone who doesn't think religion is important, but if your life is guided by religion then it may seem irreverent, insulting, and immature. Keep things like this in mind when you are discussing with people the things that are most important to them. A good rule of thumb is if you don't know if it is going to be well received, ask a moderator.

 

 

If religion guides your life, you are no longer agnostic. Saying: I don't know and can't know whether a god exists, is contrary to Islamic beliefs.

I take religions serious because they are increasingly advancing into my life. Not with facts, but claims. That is why I want to know what it is that religious humans expect me to believe and why. To understand Christians I ask Christians. To understand Hindus I go and ask Hindus. So I am here to understand Muslims.

 

How can my belief, whether in Pastafarianism or anything else, be "insulting" to Muslims? A Muslim is allowed to find Pastafarianism immature - but a non-Muslim needs to show reverence and respect.

Am I again detecting double standards here?

 

4 Expect differences I think that everyone who comes here will be offended at least once by something they read from a distinctly different culture. Questioning the holocaust is an excellent example of this, as it is something that Westerners are not accustomed to doing. Keep an open mind while browsing, listen rather than responding immediately, and try to understand rather than to disagree. Things are different here, and some of the things we are going to object to. If we face this with an open mind ready to learn and understand, rather than with instant revulsion, we can be sure that we will get along properly.

 

 

I have been insulted and called all sorts of names. But why should I be offended? In my experience, it's the frustration and/or perceived inferiority which leads someone to insults and misconduct.

If "Westerners" are not accustomed to questioning the Holocaust, are Muslims accustomed to this? What is the point of this example?

"Things are different here" is a declaration of bankruptcy as all it is is special pleading.

 

I am puzzled once again. It says here: "face this with an open mind ready to learn and understand" - yet at the same time I am constantly reminded not to be offensive and to be respectful and not to criticise too much. Which one is it?

 

5 Celebrate the Diversity Islam has brought us Algebra, several contributions to astronomy, botany, hospitals among other medical advances, art, rich music, and cultural sophistications that can be found nowhere else in the world. Islam freed slaves over a thousand years before Europe and America decided it was wrong. They also translated and pondered our Greek philosophers while the whole Western world decided to be ignorant for several hundred years. Islam is a wonderful religion, the Middle East is a center of amazing cultures, and I encourage you to recognize, enjoy, and understand the contributions and diversity they bring to our world. Above all, let us attempt to understand each other, for a better world

 

 

"Islam has brought us Algebra" Another one of these empty claims, so easily checked and verified. No, Islam has not.

Even if some really embarrassing Muslims such as Hamza Tzortzis claim: "were it not for “the likes of al-jabr, who created algebra”? Well, algebra or al-jabr is an Arabic word (repairing), not a person

 

The history of algebra began in ancient Egypt and Babylon, where people learned to solve linear (ax = b) and quadratic (ax2 + bx = c) equations, as well as indeterminate equations such as x2 + y2 = z2, whereby several unknowns are involved. The ancient Babylonians solved arbitrary quadratic equations by essentially the same procedures taught today. They also could solve some indeterminate equations.

 

http://www.algebra.c.../about/history/

 

During the Arab Golden Age (often mislabelled: Golden Age of Islam) many advancements were made and Baghdad was the centre of scientific learning, which spread all the way into Spain. But that ended almost 1000 years ago. What happened since then? If we want to communicate and learn from each other we need to be honest. Making fantastic claims which lack any substance is not a good way of establishing a common understanding.

 

 

"Islam freed slaves over a thousand years before Europe and America decided it was wrong"

Claiming that a few slaves were freed a long time ago is dishonest propaganda. Let's look at the facts:

 

1960: Niger (98% Muslim) abolishes slavery (though it was not made illegal until 2003)

1962: Saudi Arabia abolishes slavery

1962: Yemen abolishes slavery

1963: United Arab Emirates abolishes slavery

1970: Oman abolishes slavery

1981: Mauritania (Islamic Republic of) abolishes slavery

 

Let's compare this now to other countries, where

 

3rd Century BC: Ashoka abolishes slave trade and encourages people to treat slaves well but does not abolish slavery itself in the Maurya Empire, covering the majority of India, which was under his rule.

1102: Trade in slaves and serfdom ruled illegal in London: Council of London

1117: Slavery abolished in Iceland

1200: Slavery virtually disappears in Japan; it was never widespread and mostly involved captives taken in civil wars.

1214: The Statute of the Town of Korčula (Croatia) abolishes slavery.

1215: Magna Carta signed. Clause 30, commonly known as Habeas Corpus, would form the basis of a law against slavery in English common law.

 

It further says on Wikipedia:

 

The Arab slave trade was most active in West Asia, North Africa and East Africa. By the end of the 19th century, such activity had reached a low ebb. In the early 20th century (post World War I) slavery was gradually outlawed and suppressed in Muslim lands, largely due to pressure exerted by Western nations such as Britain and France. However, slavery claiming the sanction of Islam is documented presently in the African republics of Chad, Mauritania, Niger, Mali and Sudan.

 

Is it really so difficult to check some facts before making Muslims look less educated and more ignorant than they are?

 

My analysis:

Muslims making wild assertions and absolute claims which are not substantiated and false are what give Islam a bad name and reputation.

Instead of all the rules of conduct, why not simply apply the Golden Rule and behave as though you were the recipient of what you are writing?

 

The one sentence I agree with above all others here: Above all, let us attempt to understand each other, for a better world.

Edited by StopS

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I think that this is a useful post, but covers many topics, all of which would take some time to unravel. Remember , the truth goes hand in hand with a unique perspective.

 

If I were to say that Islam resembles a blinkered horse, then I think that would be seen by many Muslims as an insult. Others might 'rise to the occasion' as it were and, in spite of being directly challenged, would (probably) fall back upon the recourse of quoting the Qur'an. This is what lies at the bottom of Islam and many other religions after all. Faith and belief. And the apparrent logic of 'righteousness'. But these are not inseperable things. And it would be a major step forward to debate, not only these issues but other peripheral ones too.

History is usually composed of many shades of grey, of course, but agreeing on facts is a very important step on the road heading towards: 'objectivity'.

 

So, time and space being lacking, I enclose a verse from the 'Tao Te Ching' by Lao Tsu for interest. I hope I will not be accused of attempting to convert anyone to anything!

 

15.

 

The ancient masters were subtle, mysterious, profound, responsive.

The depth of their knowledge is unfathomable.

Because it is unfathomable,

All we can do is describe their appearance.

Watchful, like men crossing a winter stream.

Alert, like men aware of danger.

Courteous like visiting guests.

Yielding, like ice about to melt.

Simple, like uncarved blocks of wood.

Hollow, like caves.

Opaque, like muddy pools.

 

Who can wait quietly while the mud settles?

Who can remain still until the moment of action?

Observers of the Tao do not seek fulfillment.

Not seeking fulfillment, they are not swayed by desire for change.

 

Regards,

 

ron

Edited by Ron Shirt

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