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Yasnov

The Idea Of A Jewish State

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Peace obodknarf,

 

Eoin, I know you are wrong, somewhere in something you wrote, I just can't seem to find it right now...but damn it, I just know you have to be wrong somewhere!

 

Well, one thing I can be sure of is that I can't be right all the time! I'd be content with an 80/20 rightness ratio. :sl: (If 'rightness' isn't a word, it is now...)

 

You have however sparked my curiosity, is it the general theme of what I was writing about or a specific point?

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PropellerAds

FYI, here's the Australian view (from the country overview on the DFAT site - no doubt mre detailed policy is available but I couldn't be bothered searching it out):

 

Australia supports a two-state solution to the israeli-Palestinian conflict that recognises israel's right to exist in peace and also meets the legitimate aspirations of the Palestinian people.

 

Following the Oslo Accords signed by israel and the Palestinian Liberation Organisation in 1993, Australia established a Representative Office to the Palestinian Authority in November 2000. The Representative Office, which is situated in Ramallah, coordinates Australia’s aid program to the Palestinians, which was doubled to AUS$45 million for 2008, as announced by the Parliamentary Secretary for International Development Assistance, the Hon Bob McMullan MP at the Paris Donors’ Conference for the Palestinian Territories in December 2007.

 

We've just had a change of government but I doubt that the policy will change much.

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Peace Yasnov,

 

Was it the compensation thingy that you are trying to find, odobknarf? And the admission that the original 'creation' of the state of israel was carried out illegally? You are welcome : )

 

Compensation:

 

From the British Foreign and Commonwealth Office (British Government official position):

A just resolution of the refugee issue must be agreed consistent with (UN General Assembly Resolution 194 1948), which calls for the right of return, and compensation, for Palestinian refugees.

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_domino.un(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/UNISPAL.NSF/90634f6f0dc8cd1b85256d0a00549202/c758572b78d1cd0085256bcf0077e51a%21OpenDocument"]Resolution 194 (1948) - United Nations[/url]

 

11. Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible;

Instructs the Conciliation Commission to facilitate the repatriation, resettlement and economic and social rehabilitation of the refugees and the payment of compensation, and to maintain close relations with the Director of the United Nations Relief for Palestine Refugees and, through him, with the appropriate organs and agencies of the United Nations

 

Illegality in 'creation' of State of israel:

 

Britain withdrew from Palestine in May 1948. The State of israel was declared, and was attacked by neighbouring Arab states and Iraq. By the time hostilities were brought to an end by the Armistice Agreements of 1949, israel had extended its control beyond the boundaries envisaged in Resolution 181.

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetfco.gov.uk/servlet/Front?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/ShowPage&c=Page&cid=1007029394644"]Foreign and Commonwealth Office - Historical Background[/url]

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_domino.un(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/UNISPAL.NSF/181c4bf00c44e5fd85256cef0073c426/7f0af2bd897689b785256c330061d253%21OpenDocument"]UN Resolution 181[/url]

For a comprehensive list of illegalities in the creation of the State of israel I'd have to spend all day writing, and you're probably aware of them anyway.

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:sl:

personally I think the UK should also pay up

they were in charge of the area before 1948 and they let it turn into a blood bath

 

UK definitely played its part in the creation of the sad situation of the Palastinians.

 

I also believe they should pay back all the money they pillaged from India, but thats just wishful thinking on my part

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Honestly, I never heard before from the West about any suggestions that israel should pay reparations to Palestinians. So, for this case, I think it's not that mainstream.

 

Wassalam,

Y

Here are some quotes from a discussion Bush had at Camp David. All reflect policy decisions.

 

source: (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetwhitehouse.gov/news/releases/2008/01/20080110-3.html"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetwhitehouse.gov/news/releases/20...20080110-3.html[/url]

 

you'll notice it's from whitehouse.gov, which is generally a good sign for authenticity

 

I share with these two leaders the vision of two democratic states, israel and Palestine, living side by side in peace and security.

 

The point of departure for permanent status negotiations to realize this vision seems clear: There should be an end to the occupation that began in 1967. The agreement must establish Palestine as a homeland for the Palestinian people, just as israel is a homeland for the Jewish people. These negotiations must ensure that israel has secure, recognized, and defensible borders. And they must ensure that the state of Palestine is viable, contiguous, sovereign, and independent.

 

Achieving an agreement will require painful political concessions by both sides. While territory is an issue for both parties to decide, I believe that any peace agreement between them will require mutually agreed adjustments to the armistice lines of 1949 to reflect current realities and to ensure that the Palestinian state is viable and contiguous. I believe we need to look to the establishment of a Palestinian state and new international mechanisms, including compensation, to resolve the refugee issue.

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Most of them were born in the Holy land, and even if they weren't, they have a right to live there.

Thats not true. Most of them are immigrants from Europe and elsewhere. Before WWII there was only a small minority of peaceful Jews living there.

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Peace Yasnov,

 

Russ is just guessing ...

 

Maybe he just got lucky then? 68% of israeli Jews were born in israel. (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Demographics_of_israel"]Source: Wikipedia[/url]

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Well, I've just finished reviewing this entire thread.

 

First, just to get some details out of the way. Eoin, when I said "you must be wrong somewhere"...I was being sarcastic, because I don't think anyone on this thread will disagree with your 5 points as a basis of moving forward, because they're just plain reasonable.

 

The question was asked, what is the majority Western view on acceptable Settlement Terms for the region? Well, it depends on what majority you are talking about.

 

If it's the average guy on the block, he doesn't even want to hear the words 'Middle East, or Palestine, or israel.' He's sick of it, and has been for years if not a decade or two. He's too busy waiting to get off work and go the pub, and have a few laughs over a beer. Or in the case of Americans, for the Sunday night football game. The numbing of the masses into sheep is the only reason democracy is allowed to exist really.

 

If you are talking about guys who know what's sort of going on, let's say for arguments, the members participating in this thread (myself included), well you've just heard them.

 

If you are talking about politicians or policy makers, it's pretending that they're actually doing something.

 

If you are talking about 'real politic', well I already stated it in my earlier post. The primary force behind the creation of israel, and the primary reason for its creation, are still alive and healthy. Everything else is a facade.

 

You probably noticed I don't post a whole lot in politics. There is a reason for that; most discussions are superficial. They don't get at the heart of the heart. Take a look at the israeli lobby. It's pretty darn powerful isn't it? Or is it? What if I told you the reason is because the established Western elite, allows it to be powerful, so they can have a 'face' to justify the support of israeli funding; which is necessary for their 'real politic' agenda. After all, how would they explain the billions of dollars they give away to israel each year if it wasn't for the existence of a supposedly powerful israeli lobby? Yasnov, you like consipiracy theories; chew on that for a while.

 

So, if established elite's real goals changed, you would see a change in the power of the israeli Lobby. But there hasn't been a change in the geo-political fundamentals of energy resources, everyone still needs them more than ever, so their fundamantal strategy hasn't changed. In fact, the Iraq debacle highlights their desparate attempts for more control in the region than ever. You think they're going to settle for some kind of peace in israel?

 

You guys can talk all you want, and politicians can do all the PR work of supposed discussions they want, but it's all nonsense. israel's goals, that is Zionism, as they relate to a greater israel are unmitigated both in aim and in support. No peaceful or reasonable solution, like that based on the principles proposed by Eoin, will ever see the light of day so long as the underlying forces remain unchanged.

 

Your question, Yasnov, of what the Westerner's think about the idea of a Jewish State, though interesting, is actually beside the point. We can talk all we want, and that means everyone, but it won't matter.

 

And, on another note, and something I keep harping on, if Muslims want to have a say in their destiny...well, they have to make their destiny. That starts with what happens in our minds, and then very slowly...dominoes out from there. Most meaningful movements start at the ground level, but they have to be backed by correct idealogy and pragmatism, if they are to have a chance of taking root and expanding in a lasting way.

 

Alas, but I digress.

 

Peace.

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Salam,

 

Peace Yasnov,

Maybe he just got lucky then? 68% of israeli Jews were born in israel. (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Demographics_of_israel"]Source: Wikipedia[/url]

Perhaps ...

 

israelis began to live as much in their own local, ethnic, religious and professional communities as in their nation. The ethnic diversity alone of the population of 6 million is surprising to outsiders: 20 percent are Sabras, or israeli-born Jews; 20 percent were born in the former Soviet Union; 20 percent are Arabs; 25 percent are Jews from North Africa and Arab countries.

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_query.nytimes(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/gst/fullpage.html?res=9906E3D71F30F937A15752C0A96F958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_query.nytimes(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/gst/fullpage.html...;pagewanted=all[/url]

 

After all, how would they explain the billions of dollars they give away to israel each year if it wasn't for the existence of a supposedly powerful israeli lobby? Yasnov, you like consipiracy theories; chew on that for a while.

What is to chew, Brother? :sl:

 

Wassalam,

Y

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What is to chew, Brother?

That perhaps the focus of discussions on the power of the israeli Lobby, the illegal formation of israel, the holocaust is secondary…in fact just about every single topic in this entire political subforum is pretty much irrelevant. These are all but by-products of the primary issue.

 

And the primary issue has always been about control. About control of critical resources. Always has been, and always will be; unless a strategy can be developed to keep this in check. What we perceive as events, justified or unjustified, are but opportunities, realized or unrealized, to manifest that control. From this perspective, the formation of israel can be considered an event. The israeli lobby can be considered a tool to sustain the event. They are both opportunities for control of a critical resource. In this case it is oil, but in the next century it may be something else.

 

Colonialism can be defined in these terms. It was obvious because the colonies were directly occupied. Imperialism can be defined in these terms. In a global context, it too is obvious. But, imperialism uses strategies at both regional and transactional levels that sometimes are far enough removed that we lose sight of the source.

 

Globalization and free trade are also events. They give added control to the elite, who control the multi-nationals, to move resources according to their best advantage to maximize both control and profits. The side benefits of potential efficiencies from added economies of scale, or the fallout of massive displacement of employment is merely collateral damage or collateral benefit.

 

Ethics and morality are relevant only in as much as being a key factor for determining which strategies to use, and how to make these strategies palatable to the masses. Hence, the Oslo accords. Hence, the 5 points raised by Eoin. But that’s all they are, an unrealized carrot, a distraction. Look at how much time has been spent on these types of discussion in this forum. Meanwhile, business as usual in the real world. Take a hard look at the history of israel and Palestine, of all the policies, suggestions and discussions over all these decades. Compare these to the reality of what has transpired, right through all these proposals, and tell me I’m not right.

 

Discussion of events are important, but only if they are linked to the source. And this has not been done, and usually isn’t because one would have to be aware of the connection, and the overall strategy. It’s not easy to do; the media is a very effective tool to obscure that connection and keep the masses distracted.

 

I'm running out of time just now...the discussion however is significant, because eventually, we have to figure out ways to effect change - so that ethics and morality, as mentioned above, have enough fundamental, strategic and pragmatic support, to effectively thwart the opposing nature of man – who is driven by greed and control. Only then can we be in a position to care for, and pay attention to, both the conditions of the Middle East as well as those in any other part of the world where injustices occur, including Rawanda or Sierra Leone.

 

If we are not collectively united to try and achieve this change…then I ask the question, what are we really doing?

 

I look forward to your thoughts.

 

Peace.

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Salam,

 

I agree with you odobknarf, another example is like the US steaming at the mouth about world peace in every international forum, seminar, tv, media, college that they can get while continue producing and selling weapons to all parties engaged in world violence and wars. And it continues to be the world’s biggest arms dealer until now, followed by the five permanent members of the UN Security Council, the US, the UK, China, Russia, and France.

 

If we view the world from this point of view, then the horrible and terrifying Al-Qaeda seem to become a small pawn in the world arena (contrary to their projection in the media). Because they act only as what the man behind the scene wants them to. So, all their steps and moves are actually predictable and preventable. It's just the elites let them act certain way, because it can benefit them in some ways. If anything, they are in fact led to act certain way by the elites.

 

Yes, we've been distracted of the real issue. But, if you look at it carefully, this is why I am sorta hesitant and undecided about the whole issues of things. I am open minded and give same weight to all possibilities to be considered. So, it's kinda strange to me while you clearly show your contempts for some good alternative logical and reasonable explanations for some events, you actually make some conclusions that seem to be based on them.

 

How do you explain this, odobknarf?

 

Wassalam,

Y

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As an atheist Westerner, I think the whole fiasco is ridiculous, and both sides are very much at fault for perpetuating the conflict. Although I admit I'm not particularly familiar with the ins and outs, so to speak, of the current situation, I find it extremely difficult to believe that the situation is so terrible as to warrant violence, much less lethal violence. The solution rests in the hands not of the administrators, but the whole people.

 

On the level of administration, though, it seems to me that the best course of action would be to preserve as much of the status quo as possible. Namely, any borders in place since the 1950s should probably remain for the future. The idea here is that as few families as possible should be evicted.

 

It's a messy situation, though, and will not be resolved any time soon, thanks to religious conflict--which is why I tend to lack interest in the topic.

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I find it extremely difficult to believe that the situation is so terrible as to warrant violence, much less lethal violence.

I find it extremely hard to believe that you can make such comments.

 

It's a messy situation, though, and will not be resolved any time soon, thanks to religious conflict--which is why I tend to lack interest in the topic.

You are diverting this case from its real issue by blaming it on their religions, the whole issue is not about their different religion that make them fight each other. I think if the Palestinians and israeli Jews were atheists, they will still fight each other over this issue.

 

Wassalam,

Y

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I find it extremely hard to believe that you can make such comments.

 

...

 

You are diverting this case from its real issue by blaming it on their religions, the whole issue is not about their different religion that make them fight each other. I think if the Palestinians and israeli Jews were atheists, they will still fight each other over this issue.

 

Very likely, yes, because it has so permeated the culture. Yet at its root I dare say the blame rests with religious fundamentalism.

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Yes, we've been distracted of the real issue. But, if you look at it carefully, this is why I am sorta hesitant and undecided about the whole issues of things. I am open minded and give same weight to all possibilities to be considered. So, it's kinda strange to me while you clearly show your contempts for some good alternative logical and reasonable explanations for some events, you actually make some conclusions that seem to be based on them.

 

How do you explain this, odobknarf?

AA Yasnov,

 

Don't you think our energies would be better spent on what really matters:

 

...the discussion however is significant, because eventually, we have to figure out ways to effect change - so that ethics and morality, as mentioned above, have enough fundamental, strategic and pragmatic support, to effectively thwart the opposing nature of man – who is driven by greed and control. Only then can we be in a position to care for, and pay attention to, both the conditions of the Middle East as well as those in any other part of the world where injustices occur, including Rawanda or Sierra Leone.

 

If we are not collectively united to try and achieve this change…then I ask the question, what are we really doing?

 

I look forward to your thoughts.

 

Peace.

 

So brother Yasnov, do you have any thoughts on what we can do to effect positive change, as it relates to the above?

 

Peace.

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We gotta be careful in using our energy, Brother? Yes, I agree with your points above.

 

Wassalam,

Y

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We gotta be careful in using our energy, Brother? Yes, I agree with your points above.

 

Wassalam,

Y

AA Yasnov,

 

Thank you for taking the initiative and acknowledging my point of view. Upon reflection, I think spending some time and energy on your observation below, may be of value also:

 

“…So, it's kinda strange to me while you clearly show your contempts for some good alternative logical and reasonable explanations for some events, you actually make some conclusions that seem to be based on them.â€

I commend you for recognizing this inconsistency in me; I will take the liberty of assuming you are not referring to this particular thread, rather some of my postings in other topics as a whole. Please allow me to explain.

 

Over the past month, since I have joined this forum, my thoughts on Islam have evolved and matured; it is the forum members who are to be given credit for increasing my understanding of Islam. I have after all only embraced Islam less than a year ago and I have much to learn.

 

One of the most important things I have learned, that I would like to share with, is on the hadith:

 

The hadith is part and parcel of Islam; and cannot be ignored. If the life of the prophet Muhammad, pbuh, is the reason we are Muslim - as I have argued in other posts - then I should study his conduct in detail, rather than just as a biography which I have done so far. The only way to do this is through the study of the hadith. I will now put my mind on researching it in great depth, God willing. I do not have any conclusions on the hadith other than they are essential and need to be seriously investigated and given considered thought.

 

So, this change in views may explain the evolution of my initial critique of the hadith, to the reference of them in some of my posts.

 

Muhammad Qadir, for example, whatever our differences, by posting the hadith on what the Prophet had to say about ‘eternity in hell’, greatly influenced my understanding of the subject matter. I have pondered that particular hadith at considerable length since its initial posting, and am beginning to draw a deeper meaning from it. I could not have deduced this meaning from just the Qur’an itself. That is a very big lesson for me.

 

Now that is only one hadith; what treasures then...must quietly lie await! And the only treasure that is truly worth seeking is the treasure of knowledge and wisdom.

 

I hope this addresses your keen observation; it is the best I can offer, for I am only human.

 

Having attempted to address your observation, I would like to bring your focus back to the discussion at hand, and urge you to consider the point I’m making about effecting positive change in the world Islamic community, as well as the world at large.

 

The purpose of this forum must be more than just idle chatter – for that would truly be a great waste of our time. This forum, to be in the cause of God, must be one that advances our contributions, as a positive force to the world we live in; however small or large it may be.

 

We cannot simply go on complaining about all the misfortunes and atrocities that have occurred and still are occurring to the Muslim world. We are not the only ones in the world to have suffered; others too have endured great injustices. We cannot go on simply discussing alternate theories about what may or may not have happened.

 

Even if they were proven right, then what? Could the world be made to believe them? Can the damage be undone? How can this help the situation we are in, and what we will face tomorrow? It cannot.

 

And so, I make an earnest appeal to you, and to all forum members:

 

Let us try to come up with ideas on how we can take actions, so that we can effect a positive change. It’s not easy. It’s much more difficult than idle talk. But then, I ask you the question:

 

If the hadith is the study of the life and actions of the prophet Muhammad, pbuh…then what do you think he would be doing in this forum? What kinds of things would he be discussing here? Wouldn’t he be thinking about how to raise the Ummah of the Believers so that we can take positive action for good?

 

What then, is the point of studying the hadith, if we do not apply it in this very forum?

 

It is easy to let this subject lie dormant, to sweep it under the carpet, and move on our discussions as before…but the prophet Muhammad, pbuh, never asked us to do the easy thing. He asked us to do the thing that would please God most.

 

Peace.

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Salam,

 

We cannot simply go on complaining about all the misfortunes and atrocities that have occurred and still are occurring to the Muslim world. We are not the only ones in the world to have suffered; others too have endured great injustices. We cannot go on simply discussing alternate theories about what may or may not have happened.

Bro, I thought sharing a more correct version of history was a good thing? This is not about whether or not other people have suffered. Not at all. Not even close. It is not right to be silent and let people be spoonfed with incomplete and manufactured history. Islam itself is not against history.

 

Btw,congratulation on your conversion to Islam.

 

Wassalam,

Y

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Btw,congratulation on your conversion to Islam.

 

Wassalam,

Y

Thank you.

 

Salam,

Bro, I thought sharing a more correct version of history was a good thing? This is not about whether or not other people have suffered. Not at all. Not even close. It is not right to be silent and let people be spoonfed with incomplete and manufactured history. Islam itself is not against history.

...in other words, business as usual.

 

Alright then...sorry for interrupting...I'll let you guys carry on carrying on.

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Thank you.

...in other words, business as usual.

I guess so, Brother. Sorry : (

 

Wassalam,

Y

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Salamz

Let see...I figure why not speed things up :j:

The Idea of a Jewish state seem as preposterous to me as the reality of holocaust.

Matter fact they seem to go hand in hand, holocaust was a master Jew plan to gain sympathy in order to Justify stealing muslim land in mideast. It's only fair that they be force to evacuate and shipped back to Germany and other parts of Europe and evil countries. I am sure if they agree to do so willingly, jets sponsored by the wealthy ones will line up free of charge :sl:, yes not every one is as cheap as jews.

Plus, I am sure that wise beings like Yasnov, who put Sherlock to shame won't think twice sponsoring such event :sl:

So I doubt it it would be of any trouble to uproot thousands of families forcing them to migrate and adapt to new cultures and life because it's been don ebefore. Besides their ancestors should have thought about that before hand.

Who cares if land is just material, it's to die for.I it's only rational to engage in an everlasting battle over it for ceneturies jeopardizing the well being of new generations because it wasn't fair. I mean After all human lives and peace are overrated and disposable compared to the classic shotgun rule"I was here first".

Besides Adam who can prob claim ownership to entire world based on the same rule, never assigned any deed to the Jews,so technically they should be shipped to Mars or any other planet that's habitable or not since there is no place for scum in this world.

Did I miss anything ? :no:

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thanks illogical,

 

after having an entire thread where we speak about how we enjoy Jewish culture and have nothing against it, and how the policies that the Western world actually embraces are closer to the ultimate goals of the people in the region than most care to assume, I was really hoping that someone could turn the conversation back to deportation.

 

so to answer your question 'did I miss anything?'

 

yes, you missed basically the entire gist of this thread. I'd strongly suggest you go back through and re-read it.

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