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ismael

The Notion Of An Allah

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we are back after after the fatwa.have you no regard to free speech.no wonder,not a single african will leave the lies from arabia.it is the logic of the faith of arabia to be brutal.it is in the nature of the desert dwelers not to let the people free.

many of you are # .house # ,so you beter stop using malcolm x.we do not want to hear from brain dead house # .not from least of the conversos.to those of you from arabia,we say Islam is yours keep it and be happy,for it is not ours.

do not tell us that Islam did not spred by the swords.you were selling humanity till the late 1920

Edited by Al Faqeer

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LOL :D ismael

 

We did not ask you to be a muslim nor are we forcing you to be one , from your racist remarks it is obvious you are not worth a descent answer or debate .

 

If you can backup your claims pls go ahead , but obviously the only thing you seem to know is bad words you dont even know when and how to use :D .

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:D

 

The Vitality of Islam

 

By Hussain Mohammad BaFaqeeh

 

"History has proven that religions cannot be imposed by force. When the Christians oppressed the Arabs of Spain they preferred to be killed and deported to the last one of them rather than abandoning Islam. "

 

When I read these words written by French Historian Gustav Libourne in his book Arab Civilization, published nearly 120 years ago, I pondered about it for a while, particularly about the sentence " Religions cannot be imposed by force! "

 

Libourne wrote that sentence in reply to some Orientalists who claimed that Islam spread by the sword. As emphasized by Libourne, Islam did not spread with the power of the sword. On the contrary, it was spread by the sincere efforts of preachers.

 

Gustav also underlines the fact that Islam attracted people because of its simplicity manifested in the oneness of God. The secret of Islam's power lies in its simplicity, as it is easy to understand. This feature could not be found in any other religions, which are beset with contradictions and obscurities.

 

The fundamental teachings of Islam are clear and free from obscurity, It is based on the faith that there is only one God and everyone is equal before God.

 

Islam not only reshapes human mind, but also frees him from the clutches of all other powers. Under Islam, a human being is obliged to obey only the almighty Allah. A believer submits himself totally to God as shown by a Bedouin throughout his life.

 

Bukhari and Muslim narrate: " A bedouin came to the Prophet :D and asked : " O Prophet of God, could youplease tell me about an act if I perform it, i would enter Paradise? " The Prophet :D replied " Worship God, dont associate any partners with him, perform the five prayers, give the zakaat, and observe fasting during the month of Ramadan." The bedouin said " By God, I will never add anything to it, or reduce anything from it.

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When the man left the place, The Prophet :D told his companions, " whoever likes to look at a person from paradise should look at him. "

 

The most striking point int his hadith is tha it reflects the essence of Islam. It is the hallmark of Islam as it manifested itself even at the time of confrontation between the Islamic East and Europe and the collapse of Islamc civilation.

 

While Europe was controlling the international shipping lines, circumventing the areas of Islamic influenc ein East and west, Islam had won the hearts of people in those regions which had not seen a muslim soldier before.

 

Such influence of Islam was a matter of curiousity for the European sailors who crossed seas and oceans five centuries ago in an attempt to find a place where Islam had not made its inroads. Although they were able to besiege the movement of muslim traders, they, as Rolan Mosneh writes in his books on the history of the 16th and 17th centuries, "wherever the went or visited, they found muslims in front of them. It convinced the Europenas that Islamrepresented a major force mush more than they believed. It is a force which has always had the potential to expand and spread. "

 

 

:D

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we are back after after the fatwa.have you no regard to free speech.no wonder,not a single african will leave the lies from arabia.it is the logic of the faith of arabia to be brutal.it is in the nature of the desert dwelers not to let the people free.

many of you are # .house # ,so you beter stop using malcolm x.we do not want to hear from brain dead house # .not from least of the conversos.to those of you from arabia,we say Islam is yours keep it and be happy,for it is not ours.

do not tell us that Islam did not spred by the swords.you were selling humanity till the late 1920

 

 

:D/Peace To All

 

Wow, you sound more like an evangelist than an atheist with that gung ho mentality and the deliberate misinformation you're spreading...

 

You're right, Islam didn't spread by the sword...But christianity most definitely did starting with the Roman War Machine, then Inter-European Wars of the Dark Ages, the Conquistadores in Andalucia, Africa, Asia, the New World, then the Colonial Occupation's that had Missionaries accompanying every army to convert the heathens and now the Overt & Covert Missionary Work with the Bogus Relief Aid (monetary, medical, food, clothing, education, etc) used to Coerce local populations into Converting into Christianity

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Grace and Peace be with you all,

 

St. Paul admonished us, as Christians, in his epistle to the Romans to "own no man anything but to love him for in love is the fulfillment of the Law".

 

Please note that although the west can be said to have been a Christian Culture, human weaknesses and failure to grasp, understand or obey the teachings of Jesus Christ have led many to commit grave sins throughout history. Such is not supported by any serious reflection of Church Tradition nor Sacred Scripture. When such acts presented themselves as legitimate options to Christian Sovereignty or the Ordained Priesthood of the Church I dare say that such individuals failed their calling and have allowed the fog of fear and the lure of sin to distort their judgment and bring doubt to the true sanctity of their station and the Church of the Living God.

 

So I agree with you that such acts as these were terrible. But do you think it's right to compare Muslims killing people in obedience to Muhammad ibn Abdullah and later to the Qur'an with Christians and Christian Nations killing people in disobedience to the Bible? So let us not attempt to rationalize the errors of the past but let us also not attempt to rationalize the grave acts of Muhammad ibn Abdullah and later leaders of Islam. To condemn violence in the name of religion one must condemn all religous violence even that legitimized within the Qur'an and rationalized with the hadiths of the life of Muhammad ibn Abdullah. I know this is a difficult task for Muslims because it strikes at the heart of your faith and Sacred Scripture but it is a criticism which must be raise when one desires to paint the Christian Faith as violent. I find this a grave error for any devout follower of any faith to do, especially my dear Muslim brothers and sisters.

 

Any Christian who is learned of history is greatly pained by the misuse and abuse of the graces God has given the west and the Christian Church in particular but it does not deafen the call of our Lord Jesus Christ to His Church to repentance and reconcilation and faithfulness in renewed piety and charity in the world. This is the duty of the followers of Christ and call is heard even though there are few who can bare with with the digity it deserves.

 

Peace 4 Real.

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:D

 

 

Peace Ignatius,

 

Thank you for your reply.

 

Would you be kind enough to cite some examples of muslims killing in Obedience to the Prophet Muhammad :D from his lifetime, and some Verses from the Qur'an and Hadith's?

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:D/Peace To All

 

You're right, Islam didn't spread by the sword...

I don't think Spaniards, Sicilians, Greeks, Romanians, Serbs, Croats, Bulgarians, Hungarians, Austrians- to name just a few Europeans- would agree with you, from direct historical experience.

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Thanks for your reply Drosophila, but there is a difference between conquering a nation militarily and forcing it's inhabitants to convert to your religion...

 

All the nations that you cited are heavily christianized, when the Ottomans conquered those lands, whoever wanted to embrace Islam was free to do so and whoever wanted to retain their original faith was left in peace.

 

Greece for example, was under Ottoman rule for 500 years, and till this day it is overwhelmingly a Christian Nation because the Greeks weren't forced to convert to Islam.

 

As for the Austria, the Ottomans never occupied it since they were stopped twice at the gates of Vienna. The Ottomans may have conquered some territory on the periphery of Austro-Hungarian Empire, but that was it.

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Peace Ignatius,

 

Thank you for your reply.

 

Would you be kind enough to cite some examples of muslims killing in Obedience to the Prophet Muhammad :D from his lifetime, and some Verses from the Qur'an and Hadith's?

 

Grace and Peace thezman,

 

Perhaps you can help me in this. I don't want to reduce this dialog to a litteny of charges against Muhammad ibn Abdullah but hadith and the Qur'an are clear how one is to handle those who opposed him and Islam, don't we? Let me put you in the position to control the amount of detail we will discuss in this regard.

 

Did Muhammad ibn Abdullah have people killed? If so, why? What does the Qu'ran say about what one should do toward another who opposed Muhammad ibn Abdullah or Islam?

 

I leave it to your judgment to offer or deny us the facts on these matters.

 

Peace 4 Real.

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Peace Ignatius,

 

I appreciate your concern and efforts and I know your are a noble man endowed with good morals, feel free to cite an example

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Peace Ignatius,

 

I appreciate your concern and efforts and I know your are a noble man endowed with good morals, feel free to cite an example

 

Grace and Peace thezman,

 

I greatly appreciate your kind words and hope that I can measure up to them. As I understand it when Muhammad ibn Abdullah was in Medina he and his Muslims cohorts raided caravans headed to Mecca. I also understand that men died in these raids and that Muhammad ibn Abdullah was clear with his men concerning their rights to "booty" and "women" during these and "other" raids. Perhaps we can focus on two concerns that I have held against Muhammad ibn Abdullah. Those being killing and theft. As a contemplative Christian, I see no rationale for killing especially for the acquisition of "booty". Frankly I see no legitimate rationale for any killing except in the defense of human life. Muhammad ibn Abdullah attempts to lend legitimacy to his acts by suggesting they are done in the name of Allah but anyone could declare such things and then do horrible things in the name of God. As you cited earlier Christianity has done this very same thing to your disapproval and I agree but such criticism should rightly swing both ways. Anytime man oppresses another we deny him the dignity of his birthright, that being a vessel of the divine spark of life given to him by God and only legitimately taken from him by God. Even one labeled a kufr or whatever has a right to life unmolested and unprovoked by any other party. To claim divine right to exercise God’s will is ultimately a claim one cannot make with any evidence and so should not be made nor exercised. Islam does this and in doing it oppresses the rights of others to live as they will. I find this disagreeable on a host of different levels. Perhaps we can start here and see where we can go.

 

PS: I pray that you have a wonderful "reflective" Ramadan! Amen.

 

Peace 4 Real.

Edited by Ignatius

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Peace Ignatius,

 

You definitely measure up to them and thank you for wishing me a reflective Ramadan :D

 

Regarding the raids, I'll answer in a general manner for now until we get into specific raids and events.

Everything we do in Islam is for God's sake, but that wasn't the reason the Prophet {PBUH} cited for initiating the raids.

 

If you go back to Mecca when Islam was revealed, the muslims were always oppressed and on the defensive, then some fled into the mountain where Quraish initiated a physical blockade and an economic embargo (no food, or trading), plus a marital embargo as well.

 

Some then fled to ancient Ethiopia and sought refuge there. Upon migrating to Madina, and a formal declaration of war was made (after peaceful and defensive measures could no longer come to fruition) , the Muslims began raiding the seasonal caravans of quraish as a form of economic warfare and to also justly compensate for what money, land, homes, animals quraish stole from them in mecca. Because being weak, and considered the underdog, quraish (regarded as the strongest and most influential tribe in arabia) was not about to return all the booty they stole from the muslims, because it was the just thing to do.

 

Back then (as now) economic warfare was part of the actual military tactics of any nation or tribe, so the caravans were a legitimate target, and the caravans were escorted and protected by warriors not helpless civilians, and warriors do die in combat.

 

and, I'd like to mention that the Prophet {PBUH} was very fair and noble in warfare, and Islam Instituted the rules of war/rules of engagement over 1,000 years before the Geneva Convetion.

 

To cite an example, when the Muslims returned to Mecca victorious, the Prophet {PBUH} guaranteed the lives, homes, and wealth of all inhabitants of the town as long as they remained home and did not initiate hostilities. That guarantee included the Prophet's Fiercest's oppressors and torturers of Muslims. And many of them embraced Islam because of His honorable, noble and forgiving conduct in peace and battle.

 

as for the women you had mentioned, If you don't mind, I need further clarification on what incident exactly you are referring too :D

 

Peace bro...

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Grace and Peace thezman,

 

I'm not sure I'm willing to enter into this kind of criticism of Islam at this time. I'm not sure that such would benefit the many young Muslims who frequent this forum. Perhaps if I could voice my concerns in a manner that is not so directly threatening it could still serve to get me points of concern out and addressed without casting doubt on what is good and worthwhile about Islam. I will reflect on this and how I might achieve it but it is not my desire to be a critic here of pious and devout Muslims. It is a difficult road to walk.

 

I will reflect further before I pursure this line of dialog with any more detail. Particularly during Ramadan.

 

Peace 4 Real.

Edited by Ignatius

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Thanks for your reply Drosophila, but there is a difference between conquering a nation militarily and forcing it's inhabitants to convert to your religion...

All the nations that you cited are heavily christianized, when the Ottomans conquered those lands, whoever wanted to embrace Islam was free to do so and whoever wanted to retain their original faith was left in peace.

Wjhile they weren't given the choice of conversion or death offered to pagans, I don't think the boy tax was exactly voluntary. As well as direct force there are more subtle means of persuasion, such as jizyah, the powers of the timariots and the rights given to muslims. I think one reason for the hostility felt by the Serbs to the Bosniak muslims is because they are regarded as ancestral turncoats.
Greece for example, was under Ottoman rule for 500 years, and till this day it is overwhelmingly a Christian Nation because the Greeks weren't forced to convert to Islam.
Actually, there were quite a few more muslims living there when it was under Ottoman rule. The entire civil service- the Sultan's own men- janissaries and other estate holders. Most of them were not of Greek ancestry so there was even less compunction about killing or expelling them in the wars of independence.
As for the Austria, the Ottomans never occupied it since they were stopped twice at the gates of Vienna. The Ottomans may have conquered some territory on the periphery of Austro-Hungarian Empire, but that was it.

Certainly: but the Austrians remember it still.

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Grace and Peace thezman,

 

I'm not sure I'm willing to enter into this kind of criticism of Islam at this time. I'm not sure that such would benefit the many young Muslims who frequent this forum. Perhaps if I could voice my concerns in a manner that is not so directly threatening it could still serve to get me points of concern out and addressed without casting doubt on what is good and worthwhile about Islam. I will reflect on this and how I might achieve it but it is not my desire to be a critic here of pious and devout Muslims. It is a difficult road to walk.

 

I will reflect further before I pursure this line of dialog with any more detail. Particularly during Ramadan.

 

Peace 4 Real.

 

:D

 

Peace Ignatius,

 

I appreciate your concern and outstanding manners, you are definitely an honorable man and a noble human being. When you are ready to voice your concerns, God willing I shall be at your disposal when the time is right for you :D

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Wjhile they weren't given the choice of conversion or death offered to pagans, I don't think the boy tax was exactly voluntary.

 

What boy tax are you referring to?

 

As well as direct force there are more subtle means of persuasion, such as jizyah,

 

The Jizyah is nothing more than a modest tax (like modern taxes without their severity. Once a people were liberated from Roman & Persian Injustice and Tyranny, they were given choices to be made free of coercion, threats or subtle means of persuasion: If they wished to learn about Islam and then embrace it, they were free to accept or reject...Or they could pay a modest tax that went into their protection from reconquest by the Roman and Persian Empires (again they had the free will to accept or reject this)...Or they can tell us to leave and they would assume their own protection against reconquest (again they had free will to accept or reject this option), and the vast majority chose to freely embrace Islam, once they saw that muslims practiced what they preached, and preferred Islam's Justice and Mercy to Rome and Persia's Injustice and Tyranny...Some people rejected all three options, and the muslim army was ordered to leave the land by the Kalifa.

 

I think one reason for the hostility felt by the Serbs to the Bosniak muslims is because they are regarded as ancestral turncoats.

 

we consider the Bosniaks as enlightened people who made a wise choice...But, let me pose this question, when someone converts to Christianity or another religion (other than Islam), do you consider them 'turncoats' also?

 

Peace Drosophila :D

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Ok, I don't know if this has been addressed yet but I thought of it tonight and wanted to say, regarding:

...most of us do not even understand our own prayer since we are obliged to speak in arabic with Allah.it seems Allah does not understand any other tongue.it is even racist,since on the so called judgement day arabic will be the order of the day.even in hell let alone paradis arabic will rule...

That no matter what language Allah used for the final revelation and on the day of judgement, it would be foreign to some people. Because the topic starter only knows English (I presume), or at least not Arabic, that doesn't make the creator racist. The Arabic revelation does, however, serve to humble humanity and show us how little we know in terms of language, understanding, and the ability to improve ourselves.

 

May Allah grant you understanding :D

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That no matter what language Allah used for the final revelation and on the day of judgement, it would be foreign to some people. Because the topic starter only knows English (I presume), or at least not Arabic, that doesn't make the creator racist. The Arabic revelation does, however, serve to humble humanity and show us how little we know in terms of language, understanding, and the ability to improve ourselves.

 

That is so very true. It immediately sends us on a quest for knowledge.

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What boy tax are you referring to?
The forcible recruitment of christian boys into the janissaries.
The Jizyah is nothing more than a modest tax (like modern taxes without their severity. Once a people were liberated from Roman & Persian Injustice and Tyranny, they were given choices to be made free of coercion, threats or subtle means of persuasion: If they wished to learn about Islam and then embrace it, they were free to accept or reject...Or they could pay a modest tax that went into their protection from reconquest by the Roman and Persian Empires (again they had the free will to accept or reject this)...Or they can tell us to leave and they would assume their own protection against reconquest (again they had free will to accept or reject this option), and the vast majority chose to freely embrace Islam, once they saw that muslims practiced what they preached, and preferred Islam's Justice and Mercy to Rome and Persia's Injustice and Tyranny...Some people rejected all three options, and the muslim army was ordered to leave the land by the Kalifa.
You're obviously talking about a different jizyah: in eastern Europe the jizyah was supposed to be enough to enable muslims to pay the zaakaat and to support the janissaries. In addition, via the Timariot system, the natives were expected to support Turkish cavalrymen. Please give examples of the Ottomans- or other muslim rulers- leaving anywhere when they were asked to. Why did the Greeks, Bulgars, Wallachians etc have to revolt to persuade the Ottomans to withdraw their protection, instead of their merely accepting the decision of the locals? Indeed, if ottoman rule was so kindly, why did they have to conquer the countries concerned before they could offer their humane rule?

we consider the Bosniaks as enlightened people who made a wise choice...But, let me pose this question, when someone converts to Christianity or another religion (other than Islam), do you consider them 'turncoats' also?
I don't. The Serbs do. Like Gallio, I care for none of these things. However, what is the muslim view of people who became christians in countries under french or british colonial rule and served the empires? When Bosnia-Herzevogina became part of the Austro-Hungarian empire the Bosniaks were solely concerned with their privileges, such as owning the last serfs in Europe, not with their co-religionists.

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Peace Drosophila,

 

the example I have is from an ancient city in central asia. God Willing, I'll post it this weekend...

 

You're right about the perception of converts once they embrace another religion, it would have been negative.

 

But at the same time for the people (Muslims) living in current times, I don't think we would dwell on it and pass that hatred on from generation to generation, then carry out that hatred by attempting to exterminate an entire people for the decisions their ancestors made.

 

The whole point of our style of warfare is to issue those options first and wait for a reply, then our response would be based on the answers we receive.

Edited by thezman

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I'll be interested to learn about the city. I don't think the ottomans worked on those lines, though. Certainly, I agree that we should not dwell on the past- but how far back does the past go and how recent is a lot of it? The Bosniak muslims- many of whom were not muslims except nominally- co-operated with the nazis, the Croats and the communist government of Tito in persecution of Serbs. When Bosnia-Herzevogins seceded from what was left of Yugoslavia the Serbs (and the Croats too) in BH in turn seceded from it. If the one act was legal, so was the other. The problem came with splittting up the land. The muslims were more urbanised, so if the territory was divided according to actual population on the ground they would have had not much but Sarajevo and a few suburbs. If BH was divided up in proportion to population the serbs would lose their ancestral lands. In addition, the Croat genocide in Word War II- which the muslims assisted or acquiesced in- reduced the Serbs from the largest part of the population in BH, so if the division was made on traditional living patterns the muslims would have even less.

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Peace Drosophila,

 

The city I had mentioned is Samarqand (Uzbekistan)...

 

the title of the story is: Is there any parallel in any civilization?

 

you can read the stor at:

 

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_cyberistan(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/islamic/sibai6.html#anycivil"]Cyberistan[/url]

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Is there any parallel in any civilization?

Probably not- including the whole later history of Islamic civilisation.

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I wouldn't actually say that, since both of us don't know the details of every event that occurred in Islamic Civilization. Even if it was the sole incident, it was unprecedented...But I will research this particular topic.

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