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"eloi, Eloi, Lema Sabachthani?"

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:D

 

just wondering about this phrase "Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?" (My God,My God Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me?) (since Isa (as) was raised up to heaven why did the man in place say this? or is it fabricated in the bible? :D i would like some info from the people

 

also i read somewhere that i think it was paul (boolas[isnt that also a gate in hell or summat?]) wrote a letter to the romans that all animals were clean and so the christians use that as an excuse for eating pig?

 

also i heard about (dunno his name in english) Teetus burning the scrolls that was the original injeel because he raided the city and set fire to it and boolas wrote his own?

 

sorry for the questions but its been burning in my mind

 

detailed answers would be MUCH appreciated :D

 

:D in advance

 

:D

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PropellerAds

That phrase said by Jesus was prophecied 800+ years before Him.

 

Read why Jesus said that in Psalm 22 (the whole thing!) it talks about the Messiahs crucifixion in great detail. (www.)"http://blueletterbible####/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Psa&chapter=22&version=nkjvp&Go.x=22&Go.y=10"]blueletterbible###

##/cgi-bin/too...Go.x=22&Go.y=10[/url]

 

Also read Isaiah 53 which also talks about the Messiahs mission on earth. (www.)"http://blueletterbible####/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Isa&chapter=53&version=nkjvp&Go.x=22&Go.y=11"]blueletterbible###

##/cgi-bin/too...Go.x=22&Go.y=11[/url]

 

As far as eating meat: Jesus mentioned it in some of the Gospels and then the Holy Spirit revealed it through Peter (read Acts) and also through Paul (Romans,Corinthians.)

 

Hope this helped.

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the chosen 1 (what an awful name to call yourself),

why did you choose to ask that question in the 'Islamic discussion' section?

You're now disabled for 10 days, and please learn to type in proper English, slang is not allowed. Kindly read our (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_gawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?act=boardrules"]forum rules[/url] for details.

 

Moving this topic to the refuting section.

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:D / Peace To All

 

Greetings adiBoom,

 

No disrespect Intended here,

 

I'd like to point out that if Jesus (PBUH) was God, who was he Pleading to?

 

If he was the son of god, how can god forsake his child?

 

If he was a deity or son of a deity, he must have had the power to rid himself from this dire situation, being that he has god like powers and without resorting to pleading.

 

How can a god/son of a god describe himself as a worm not a man?

 

For a son of god, he sounds like he desperately lost faith and hope in his father's aid.

Edited by thezman

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:D / Peace To All

 

 

 

I'd like to point out that if Jesus (PBUH) was God, who was he Pleading to?

 

Jesus referred to Himself as ''the Son." (as foretold in Scripture) And as the Son He was pleading to the Father.

 

If he was the son of god, how can god forsake his child?

 

First of all Id like to point out that Jesus is not a 'child' of God. God didnt make Him. The title "Son of God" shows us how He relates to His Father. Jesus Himself is God. Anyway, the answer is ''love." He did it out of love for us. He didnt have to do it or need to but chose to! Thats whats so mindboggling!!!

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son so that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life."

 

If he was a deity or son of a deity, he must have had the power to rid himself from this dire situation, being that he has god like powers and without resorting to pleading.

 

He was perfectly submissive to the Father's will. This plan was in motion from before Creation. God promised Adam and Eve and warned the serpent that "He will bruise your head, and you will bruise His hell".

 

How can a god/son of a god describe himself as a worm not a man?

 

Humility. " Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Phillipians 2:5-11

 

For a son of god, he sounds like he desperately lost faith and hope in his father's aid.

 

Jesus was fully God. And fully Man. As a Man He was deeply distressed by what awaited Him. Yet He still wished to do God's will!!! "No as I will but Your will be done."

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:D

may peace be upon you all

 

 

First of I would like to welcome you adiBOOM to the IF :D

before I proceed I would like to say that I mean no disrespect, but I'm only trying to understand your prespective.

 

Jesus was fully God. And fully Man. As a Man He was deeply distressed by what awaited Him.  Yet He still wished to do God's will!!! "No as I will but Your will be done."

 

with that your upove quote, it seems to me that Jesus (may peace be upon him), believed in God. So I'm not sure how christians get the idea of him actually being God.

 

Also when you quoted that he was crusified out of love, he could have proved that he was 'God' if he would have empowered his followers to stop it from happening even if their numbers were little.

 

Some christians also believe that Jesus (pbuh) IS Lord. According to my knowledge of christianity, wasn't he 'resurected' ? If so, wouldn't that mean that he 'Faked' his death? wouldn't that make him a liar? .. I turly do doubt that God is a liar, and I'm sure would you agree. So that leaves the question. Who resurected him?

 

not a cermon, just my point of view my friend :D

have a good day.

 

:D

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First of all Id like to point out that Jesus is not a 'child' of God. God didnt make Him. The title "Son of God" shows us how He relates to His Father. Jesus Himself is God. Anyway, the answer is ''love." He did it out of love for us. He didnt have to do it or need to but chose to! Thats whats so mindboggling!!!

 

Did you forget

 

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever

believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

Begotten what does it mean in english :D ? pls explain , so are you right or the bible ?

 

 

..............

 

"Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?" (My God,My God Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me "

 

Why would god call on himself ?

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Did you forget

 

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever

believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

Begotten what does it mean in english :D ? pls explain , so are you right or the bible ?

..............

 

"Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?" (My God,My God Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me "

 

Why would god call on himself ?

 

Peace all,

 

To beget is to reproduce. People beget more people. Cows beget more cows. Frogs beget more frogs. For God to beget someone would mean that His essence has been reproduced in the new person. We are not God's begotten children. He created us in His image, but we do not share His essence. Jesus never said "I am the Father" but he did say "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father"

 

Here are some pertinent scriptures about the relationship of Jesus to the Father:

 

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day." The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, "I am the bread which came down from heaven." And they said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, 'I have come down from heaven'?" Jesus therefore answered and said to them, "Do not murmur among yourselves. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven."

--John 6:37-51

 

continued

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""Lord," said Philip, "show us the Father, and that's enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been among you all this time without your knowing Me, Philip? The one who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I speak to you I do not speak on My own. The Father who lives in Me does His works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me. Otherwise, believe because of the works themselves."

--John 14:8-11

 

22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" 23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

 

25 "These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

 

28 You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I. And now I have told you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe. I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me. But that the world may know that I love the Father, and as the Father gave Me commandment, so I do. Arise, let us go from here.

--John 14:28-31

 

All of John 15 refers to Jesus' relationship with the Father. I admit there are mysteries here, and the text by itself is not conclusive proof that Jesus is God. On the other hand, it is hard to imagine Muhammad saying that to see him is to see God.

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Christians look at the scriptures like this, look at the miracles of Jesus, and look at the confessions of those who knew him best, and draw the conclusion that Jesus is God. Perhaps the most direct scripture in the Gospels is this:

"Now Thomas, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. The other disciples therefore said to him, "We have seen the Lord." So he said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe."

And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, "Peace to you!" Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing." And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name."

--John 20:24-31

 

 

Now this is post-resurrection, which Muslims deny, so doubtless many here will look at this whole chapter with suspicion. Christians have no other holy book, and so take these words at face value. Again, I cannot imagine someone falling at Muhammad's feet and crying out "My Lord and my God!" without a long conversation about who God is and how Muhammad is his humble prophet. Jesus, on the other hand, blesses Thomas for the confession.

 

I hope this helps explain why Christians believe what they believe.

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First of all Id like to point out that Jesus is not a 'child' of God.

 

Yes we know that.

 

The title "Son of God" shows us how He relates to His Father. Jesus Himself is God.

 

So Jesus is God & his father is God too but then Jesus is not son of God. :D

 

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son so that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life."

 

I thought u said "Jesus is not a 'child' of God" but then u call him the begotten Son of God. Need to make up your mind here.

 

 

You still haven't answered why did Jesus say "My God,My God Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me?"

 

Forsaken: To give up (something formerly held dear); To leave altogether; abandon

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Peace all,

 

To beget is to reproduce. People beget more people. Cows beget more cows. Frogs beget more frogs. For God to beget someone would mean that His essence has been reproduced in the new person. We are not God's begotten children. He created us in His image, but we do not share His essence. Jesus never said "I am the Father" but he did say "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father"

 

Here are some pertinent scriptures about the relationship of Jesus to the Father:

 

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day." The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, "I am the bread which came down from heaven." And they said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, 'I have come down from heaven'?" Jesus therefore answered and said to them, "Do not murmur among yourselves. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven."

--John 6:37-51

 

continued

 

 

 

 

My Dear friend God Almighty is god and not creation , to begget means you have to perform sexual contact and this is attributed like you have already said to humans and animals , so how can you degrade god almighty that way astaghfirullah ?

 

No where does he say he is the father or god , and again why would god call out to himself ? If he is a different person which means they are not one like your theology claims .

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My Dear friend God Almighty is god and not creation , to begget means you have to perform sexual contact and this is attributed like you have already said to humans and animals , so how can you degrade god almighty that way astaghfirullah ?

 

No where does he say he is the father or god , and again why would god call out to himself ? If he is a different person which means they are not one like your theology claims .

 

Peace Al Faqeer,

 

I would say that God is in a category of His own. What people and animals have to do to beget is a whole other matter. Jesus was born to Mary because according to the angel, The Holy Spirit came upon Mary, and the power of the Highest overshadowed her. There was no sexual contact, as occurs in many pagan myths.

 

Jesus said "I am in the Father and the Father is in me." in John 14. Saying "I am in the Father" is not such a big stretch, but can you imagine Muhammad claiming that Allah was in him? Yet Jesus makes the claim that the Father is in him more than once. The reaction that Muslims have toward these statements is just like many of the Jews in Jesus' time. They thought he was a blasphemer. It's why many of them hated him.

 

It is also worth remembering that the gospel wasn't the only thing that John wrote. The book of Revelations is much more explicit about Jesus' true nature.

 

It boils down to defining God's oneness. Is it a numerical oneness or is it an essential oneness. I have pointed out that in marriage, God defines oneness in terms of something other than numeric. If the concept of the trinity is correct of God being one essence but three persons, then God can in fact call out to himself.

 

I don't expect to change your mind. I am trying to point to the scriptures themselves as a way of explaining why Christians would believe such a difficult thing. John, who knew Jesus as well as any person, clearly believed he was God. I too, have encountered the living God through the person of Jesus Christ. Meeting Jesus is...disruptive. Look at Paul's life, for example. It changes everything. Like the apostles, my life and understanding have been changed. Now I can only humbly state what I have experienced to be true.

 

Thank you for your patience, everyone. I realize that this subject goes to the heart of the things you hold most dear, and reading this must be frustrating, annoying, or worse. I confess with you that God is one, but understand that oneness differently.

 

Here's a question for you. Is "Father" one of the names that Islam gives God? Are you comfortable with Jesus using it? If not, what is the closest equivalent name of God?

 

Peace and thanks!

me

Edited by me

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Peace Al Faqeer,

 

I would say that God is in a category of His own. What people and animals have to do to beget is a whole other matter. Jesus was born to Mary because according to the angel, The Holy Spirit came upon Mary, and the power of the Highest overshadowed her. There was no sexual contact, as occurs in many pagan myths.

 

Then How is he the only begoten son ? Begotten not made ? I think by just mentioning the word begget You are talking about attributes of animals and not god almighty .

 

Jesus said "I am in the Father and the Father is in me." in John 14. Saying "I am in the Father" is not such a big stretch, but can you imagine Muhammad claiming that Allah was in him? Yet Jesus makes the claim that the Father is in him more than once. The reaction that Muslims have toward these statements is just like many of the Jews in Jesus' time. They thought he was a blasphemer. It's why many of them hated him.

 

No where does he say I am God Or I am One in a trinity with the father and HG on the contrary he says

 

John 7:16 "Jesus answered them and said, 'My doctrine is not mine, but His who sent me.' "

 

John 14:24 "He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine but The Father's who sent me."

 

John 12:49 "For I have not spoken on my own authority; but the Father who sent me gave me a command, what I should say and what I should speak."

John 5:19 "Verily, verily I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do..."

 

John 5:30 "I can of myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and my judgment is righteous, because I do not seek my own will but the will of the Father who sent me."

 

John 8:42 "Jesus said to them, 'If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but He sent me.' "

 

John 15:2 "My Father takes away every branch in me that bears not fruit; he purges it; that it may bring forth more fruit." Here, we see Jesus' acknowledgement that he is an impefect sinner just like the rest of us; he too must be purged and purified.

 

It boils down to defining God's oneness. Is it a numerical oneness or is it an essential oneness. I have pointed out that in marriage, God defines oneness in terms of something other than numeric. If the concept of the trinity is correct of God being one essence but three persons, then God can in fact call out to himself.

 

 

Let me ask You something , Who was On the Cross according to christians ? was it the Holy Ghost or the Son ?

 

And until now pls answer why would God call out to himself " My lord my Lord Why have thou 4saken me ? "

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Then How is he the only begoten son ? Begotten not made ? I think by just mentioning the word begget You are talking about attributes of animals and not god almighty .

 

Peace Al Faqeer,

 

Not sure where to go from here. You have your scriptures telling you that God does not beget, and I have mine telling me He has already done so. We agree that Jesus was born under remarkable circumstances. The nature of his birth by itself does not automatically confer "begotten" status. I think some of the difficulty is that the terms Father and Son speak more about function than lineage. Christians believe that Jesus always existed, but his incarnation came into being through the Father. So it's not like God suddenly sired a son, but rather that the Son who always existed entered history at that moment.

 

Christians look to the testimony of what Jesus did, like commanding the storm to cease. (Luke 8:24) Who else simply speaks and creation immediately responds? We look to what Jesus said about himself, referring to himself as God's only son. (John 3:16) We look to the reactions of Jesus' enemies, who clearly understood his claims as blasphemy, claiming equality with God. We look at Jesus' response to the allegations. He never said, "You misunderstood me." He essentially challenged them to prove he wasn't. (John 10:31-38) We have Jesus' testimony at the trial before the Sanhedrin, where they asked him directly, "Are you the Son of God?" and he answered in the affirmative. (Luke 22:70) And if it's true, then Jesus was tried and condemned for being the Son of God, an ironic fulfillment of the parable of the vineyard. (Matthew 21:33-41) We look to the testimony of the men Jesus chose to carry on his ministry, who were rather plain about who Jesus was, and who confirmed their testimony on pain of death. Every apostle save John died violently for preaching the gospel.

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No where does he say I am God Or I am One in a trinity with the father and HG on the contrary he says…[snip]

 

I appreciate you quoting the scriptures, but all scripture must be understood in context of other scripture. Every verse you quoted was from the gospel of John, which begins, " In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men." John goes on to say that John the Baptist was a witness to that light, and that he (John the gospel writer) has beheld the glory of that light. So begins a book about Jesus. Now you can argue that John never says in the first chapter that "Jesus is God" but it is ridiculous to imagine that John would make such startling claims and then write a whole book about someone completely unrelated to those claims.

 

So Jesus saying that He is speaking the words of the one who sent him must be understood in light of the above claims. Christians believe that Jesus voluntarily left the glory of heaven and took on the flesh of humanity to fulfill the promise to redeem mankind. He willingly subjected himself to that Father to model for us our own subjection to the Father. He said plainly that he was going to lay down his life for his sheep, and be resurrected:

"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd. Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father." John 10:11-18

 

more...

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John 15:2 "My Father takes away every branch in me that bears not fruit; he purges it; that it may bring forth more fruit."

 

You misquoted from John 15. That chapter begins:

"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples. As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

 

Jesus is not referring to sins in this verse. The branches he is referring to are his disciples. If you read the whole gospel carefully, the picture that comes out is that Jesus abides in the Father and we abide in Jesus. I realize that Islam rejects the idea of a mediator between God and man, but the concept is at the heart of Christianity, and as old as the book of Job. (Job 9:32-33) We, like Muslims, believe that every man will give an account of his life before God, but we believe that by abiding in Jesus we will please the Father. We believe that Jesus then becomes Job's mediator for us, and that by abiding in Jesus and bearing friut we are saved through Jesus. There's more to it than that, but you get the idea.

 

more..

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Let me ask You something , Who was On the Cross according to christians ? was it the Holy Ghost or the Son ?

 

It was clearly the Son on the cross, as he said multiple times would happen. (Matthew 16:21, Mark 8:31, Luke 9:22) I have read Muslims asking, "How can God die?" in response to this idea. God does not die, anymore than our spirits die when our body does. Jesus experienced real, physical death. His spirit did not end as ours does not end. The difference is that the spirit in Jesus was not a normal human spirit but was the Jesus who "was with God and Was God" in the beginning. Death released Him to finish the job the Father had given him. It is no accident that the curtain to the Holy of Holies in the temple was torn from top to bottom when Jesus died. He opened a way for people to approach God directly. And this was God's plan from the beginning. John referred to Jesus as "the lamb slain from the foundation of the world." (Rev 13:8)

 

And until now pls answer why would God call out to himself "My lord my Lord Why have thou 4saken me?"

 

Hmmmm... I wonder if there is any answer I could give that would make the slightest difference? In some ways, ANY question about why God would do anything is prone to futile speculation. Why would God choose to show us mercy? Why would he bother creating us at all? All we can do is fall back on what the scriptures tell us for answers.

 

Part of why Jesus said it was to fulfill prophecy (Ps 22:1) and frankly that's reason enough. Beyond that, there is not an easy answer I can give you in the form of a short scripture. The scriptures talk a lot about the consequences of Jesus' death and resurrection, but at that specific moment of anguish on the cross, what we have are eyewitness accounts. It happened. We can piece together some thoughts from scriptures. Scripture tells us that Jesus bore our sins on the cross. (I Peter 2:24) We are told that, "For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." (I Cor 5:21)

 

Most Christians believe that in that moment God's wrath against sin was poured out on Jesus, and that in that moment, the holy unity within the Godhead was disrupted, by the will of God, to fulfill the plan of God. The magnitude of this awes me. My salvation comes at a high price.

 

Give me some time to see if I can get a better, more detailed answer for you from people smarter than me.

 

Peace to all!

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Peace Al Faqeer,

 

Not sure where to go from here. You have your scriptures telling you that God does not beget, and I have mine telling me He has already done so. We agree that Jesus was born under remarkable circumstances. The nature of his birth by itself does not automatically confer "begotten" status. I think some of the difficulty is that the terms Father and Son speak more about function than lineage. Christians believe that Jesus always existed, but his incarnation came into being through the Father. So it's not like God suddenly sired a son, but rather that the Son who always existed entered history at that moment.

 

Christians look to the testimony of what Jesus did, like commanding the storm to cease. (Luke 8:24) Who else simply speaks and creation immediately responds? We look to what Jesus said about himself, referring to himself as God's only son. (John 3:16) We look to the reactions of Jesus' enemies, who clearly understood his claims as blasphemy, claiming equality with God. We look at Jesus' response to the allegations. He never said, "You misunderstood me." He essentially challenged them to prove he wasn't. (John 10:31-38) We have Jesus' testimony at the trial before the Sanhedrin, where they asked him directly, "Are you the Son of God?" and he answered in the affirmative. (Luke 22:70) And if it's true, then Jesus was tried and condemned for being the Son of God, an ironic fulfillment of the parable of the vineyard. (Matthew 21:33-41) We look to the testimony of the men Jesus chose to carry on his ministry, who were rather plain about who Jesus was, and who confirmed their testimony on pain of death. Every apostle save John died violently for preaching the gospel.

 

Grace and Peace me,

 

Yes, the weight of the "whole" gospel confirms the dogmas, the doctrines, and the teachings of the Church of the Living God. When looked at separately Muslims find room to refute such claims but when one takes the "whole" gospel in to consideration, one reaches a firm conclusion on the mysteries of our faith.

 

I find it interesting that this all has been discussed in great detail between Khamosh and myself only to be overlooked. When we look to the Greek text and the rationale for English translation, we come to a very clear understanding of what the Christian faith teaches. To continue to suggest the contrary isn't a misunderstanding but a concerted effort to slander the truth of the Churches position. I find this a bit mischievous to say the least.

 

Peace 4 Real.

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Peace all,

 

Sorry for the delayed response. I wrote out a four-part reply but only the first of the four actually arrived.

 

Al Faqeer. You are correct that the word trinity does not appear in print in the Bible. Perhap[s a difference between our religions is that Christians are free, within limits to assemble related facts from scripture and draw a conclusion. One must be very careful about doing so, therefore such conclusions must be based on as much scripture as is possible. The case for the trinity is very strong from the scriptures.

 

Jesus instructed the apostles to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Christians view this as the complete picture of God. You can read in John 17, Jesus prayed for all who believed in him "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me." (John 17:21)

 

Can you honestly imagine Muhammad claiming to be in God and have God in him, and to be one with God, or referring to himself and God as an US? It's unthinkable, and the fact that it's unthinkable reveals the huge difference between Jesus' and Muhammad's teachings.

 

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I am sure you would agree that all scripture must be understood in context. I expect that if Ignatius of I quoted the Quran incompletely you would be quick to share with us the whole scripture, and it's correct understanding, and I think that's proper. All the scriptures you mention are from John, and therefore must be understood in the context of it's first chapter, wherein John says:

"1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

 

15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.' " 16 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him."

 

Disagree with me all you want but please do not cherry-pick my scripture to support your position. I must inform you that you also misquoted John 15:2. Jesus is not referring to sins at all. The context of the verse is:

 

1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

 

Frankly, I am at a loss to understand how you can be familiar with 15:2 and miss 15:5 completely.

 

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Let me ask You something , Who was On the Cross according to christians ? was it the Holy Ghost or the Son ?

 

And until now pls answer why would God call out to himself " My lord my Lord Why have thou 4saken me ? "

 

Finally in answer to your question, it was the Son on the Cross. All four gospels make it plain that Jesus understood that was the plan all along.

 

From Matthew 16:21: From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.

 

From Mark 8:31: And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

 

From Luke 9:22: "The Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day."

 

From John 10:14–18: 14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd. 17 Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.

 

As to why Jesus said what he said, this is one of those instances where we have to draw a conclusion. Witnesses observed that he said it, and it fulfilled the prophecy of Psalm 22. What else do we know? According to Peter, Jesus bore our sins on that cross (1 Peter 2:24). According to Paul, the Father "made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." (2 Corinthians 5:21) It is clear from gospel references too numerous to list, but which include the verses you quoted, that Jesus enjoyed a deep communion with the Father. Bearing our sin meant bearing the consequences of that sin, as prophesied by Isaiah. (Isaiah 53) Since part of the consequences of sin is separation from the Father, Christians believe that for a moment, the God the Father, from the perspective of eternity in heaven, turned his face away from God the Son, who had voluntarily entered the world of time and space to be the living image of the Father and a propitiation for our sins, and in that moment, the communion that Jesus had had since the incarnation was broken, just as it will broken for all those who enter into eternal judgement.

 

Peace to all.

 

 

 

Grace and Peace Ignatius! Did you get my messages?

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Peace Al Faqeer,

 

Not sure where to go from here. You have your scriptures telling you that God does not beget, and I have mine telling me He has already done so. We agree that Jesus was born under remarkable circumstances. The nature of his birth by itself does not automatically confer "begotten" status. I think some of the difficulty is that the terms Father and Son speak more about function than lineage. Christians believe that Jesus always existed, but his incarnation came into being through the Father. So it's not like God suddenly sired a son, but rather that the Son who always existed entered history at that moment.

 

Christians look to the testimony of what Jesus did, like commanding the storm to cease. (Luke 8:24) Who else simply speaks and creation immedia

 

 

If jesus was begotten according to your scripture then GOD had many more sons so why are they not part of the trinity ?

 

Let us look at few of them:

 

1- Exodus 4:22 "Thus saith Jehovah, israel is my son, even my firstborn." israel was GOD's Son before Jesus since israel is the "first born". Does this make israel divine?

 

2- Jeremiah 31:9 "I am a father to israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn." Ephraim is another name for israel.

 

3- Psalm 2:7 "....Jehovah had said onto me (David), thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee." Since GOD Almighty chose David to be His begotten Son, does this make David divine too?

 

 

How could he have always existed if he was never mentioned as John mentioned Three who bear record In heaven ? meaning where is the trinity of father son and holy ghost In the old testament ? how can the status of god almighty change ?

 

Jesus commanding a storm or giving life to the dead is no proof he is god , as god easily gives permission to people to perofrm such miracles even your bible says that False prophets have gone into the world and performed miracles so how is that proof he is god ?

Edited by Al Faqeer

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It was clearly the Son on the cross, as he said multiple times would happen. (Matthew 16:21, Mark 8:31, Luke 9:22) I have read Muslims asking, "How can God die?" in response to this idea. God does not die, anymore than our spirits die when our body does. Jesus experienced real, physical death. His spirit did not end as ours does not end. The difference is that the spirit in Jesus was not a normal human spirit but was the Jesus who "was with God and Was God" in the beginning. Death released Him to finish the job the Father had given him. It is no accident that the curtain to the Holy of Holies in the temple was torn from top to bottom when Jesus died. He opened a way for people to approach God directly. And this was God's plan from the beginning. John referred to Jesus as "the lamb slain from the foundation of the world." (Rev 13:8)

 

Let me get this straight .

 

You are saying that god is one but only the son part of god was on the cross ? right ? , so this means he is a different person and personality than the Father and Hghost right ? so this proves that they are not one as you claim .

 

The problem is that it seems you cannot make up your minds if he Jesus was god or the son of god or as you said "the lamb slain from the foundation of the world" .

 

I mean How can the god be the son of god meaning how could God begget himself ?

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If jesus was begotten according to your scripture then GOD had many more sons so why are they not part of the trinity ?

 

Let us look at few of them:

 

1- Exodus 4:22 "Thus saith Jehovah, israel is my son, even my firstborn." israel was GOD's Son before Jesus since israel is the "first born". Does this make israel divine?

 

2- Jeremiah 31:9 "I am a father to israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn." Ephraim is another name for israel.

 

3- Psalm 2:7 "....Jehovah had said onto me (David), thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee." Since GOD Almighty chose David to be His begotten Son, does this make David divine too?

How could he have always existed if he was never mentioned as John mentioned Three who bear record In heaven ? meaning where is the trinity of father son and holy ghost In the old testament ? how can the status of god almighty change ?

 

Your first two references are referring to the nation of israel, which God caused to exist through Moses. Were it not for God's intervention, israel would have never become a nation. God is the father of that nation. No scripture makes any claim about israel the person or the nation as being divine in essence.

 

The third scripture is prophecy concerning Jesus, as well as a Psalm of David. It was God, through Samuel, who made David King of israel. The reference to God's annointed one has a duel meaning. It refers to the King of israel, but also to the coming Messiah. The scriptures plainly state that David was borne of Jesse, so the immediate meaning of the scripture is talking about God establishing David as King. It's prophetic meaning is describing Jesus. No scripture make a claim about David being divinein essence.

 

The reason Christians believe in a trinitarian God is that scripture only makes claims about the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as deity. To assume that there are more would be going beyond the scriptural facts, and we must never do that.

 

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Edited by me

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