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"eloi, Eloi, Lema Sabachthani?"

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Jesus commanding a storm or giving life to the dead is no proof he is god , as god easily gives permission to people to perofrm such miracles even your bible says that False prophets have gone into the world and performed miracles so how is that proof he is god ?

 

Interesting... Jesus said, "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves." (John 14:11) The miracles of Jesus confirmed his testimony. He had to back up the claims he made about himself. When one deliberately ignores or misconstrues the words of Jesus then the miracles have no inherent meaning. Accept Jesus at his word, and it becomes obvious. The Pharisees rejected his words and so the miracles became another reason to hate him.

 

The Christian view of history is that of ongoing revelation. We know more than the people of Moses' time because we have the benefit of more revelation in the form of the scriptures. The prophecies of the old testament give information about what the coming Messiah would be like. Jesus fulfilled every prophecy, and yet because of the hardness of the hearts of the Jewish leaders, they ignored the signs and plotted to murder Jesus.

 

There are clues regarding the trinity in the OT, like Abraham in Genesis 18:

"1 Then the Lord appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground, 3 and said, "My Lord, if I have now found favor in Your sight, do not pass on by Your servant. 4 Please let a little water be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree. 5 And I will bring a morsel of bread, that you may refresh your hearts. After that you may pass by, inasmuch as you have come to your servant." They said, "Do as you have said."

 

Three men addressed as Lord. Abraham lapsing from singular to plural in the same paragraph. All three answering Abraham. All three receiving his worship--no angel would ever receive worship. It's not definitive, but it's a clue to a mystery that is later revealed in Jesus Christ. In Genesis, why does God refer to himself as singular when speaking to others but plural when reasoning within himself? There are clues about the trinity all through the old testament. The Jews reject the trinity because they reject Jesus as Messiah, and therefore do not recognize these clues. Come face to face with Jesus Christ and the parts fall together.

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Let me get this straight .

 

You are saying that god is one but only the son part of god was on the cross ? right ? , so this means he is a different person and personality than the Father and Hghost right ? so this proves that they are not one as you claim .

 

The problem is that it seems you cannot make up your minds if he Jesus was god or the son of god or as you said "the lamb slain from the foundation of the world" .

 

I mean How can the god be the son of god meaning how could God begget himself ?

 

As to your last points...Let me try once more.

 

Marriage is a limited picture of what God is like. "The two become one flesh." From that point on, two persons are united in purpose, values, chores of living—all of life is now understood through the lens of that union. Their fates are meshed together so what happens to the one effects the other. They are not the same person, but unite to form a single essence, which is their family.

 

The trinity implies different personhood but the same essence. Three persons/one essence. Therefore Jesus had the exact same personality as the Father. He has the same values, same purpose, same substance. He plainly said that to see him is to see the Father! (John 14:9) Jesus existed in eternity as God with the Father and Holy Spirit. He willingly laid his glory aside and entered into time and space as a man, submitting himself to the Father and relying on the Holy Spirit. In that state, he was fully human and fully God, but as God emptied himself as a servant. When we say "begotten," we mean that Jesus as a man came into being directly from the Father through Mary, and yet maintained his essential nature, and thus was different from every other human being. All the scriptures that speak of Jesus only doing what the Father tells him is further evidence to me that they remained of one mind. It would have been impossible for Jesus to do something different from the Father.

 

Al Faqeer, I don't wonder that this makes no sense from your perspective. Your foundation is built on a different rock than mine. I am happy to understand more about your beliefs, which is why I came here in the first place, and I am happy to try to explain what Christians believe. I don't understand how Muslims can say the Bible is corrupted on the one hand and then try to use it to attack Christian theology on the other. If it's corrupted, show me how. If it's not, then respect it as a holy book and quote it in context. I will generally keep quiet until someone misquotes the scriptures in order to attack them.

 

I'm curious. One of the quotes you responded to was in my first response that doesn't appear in the thread. Did it go directly to you as a PM?

 

Peace to all!

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Your first two references are referring to the nation of israel, which God caused to exist through Moses. Were it not for God's intervention, israel would have never become a nation. God is the father of that nation. No scripture makes any claim about israel the person or the nation as being divine in essence.

 

The third scripture is prophecy concerning Jesus, as well as a Psalm of David. It was God, through Samuel, who made David King of israel. The reference to God's annointed one has a duel meaning. It refers to the King of israel, but also to the coming Messiah. The scriptures plainly state that David was borne of Jesse, so the immediate meaning of the scripture is talking about God establishing David as King. It's prophetic meaning is describing Jesus. No scripture make a claim about David being divinein essence.

 

The reason Christians believe in a trinitarian God is that scripture only makes claims about the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as deity. To assume that there are more would be going beyond the scriptural facts, and we must never do that.

 

more...

 

Well me no where in the old testament does the scripture claim the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as deity , and you have yet to produce evidence that Jesus is mentioned as god in the old testament or in the whole bible for that matter .

 

You see if jesus was god the Jews would have known this wouldnt they ? Moses would have preached this and so would Abraham PBUT , so why did they not ?

 

So it seems this new concept of god came only after Eisaa PBUH was raised By God Almighty by the men who followed him , Wise words here :

 

From the Revised Standard Version

 

"How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

 

 

So its clear the warnings for you were there yet you wish not to see it , even moses predicted that the scripture will be corrupted see Deuteronomy 31:25-29 .

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nteresting... Jesus said, "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves." (John 14:11) The miracles of Jesus confirmed his testimony. He had to back up the claims he made about himself. When one deliberately ignores or misconstrues the words of Jesus then the miracles have no inherent meaning. Accept Jesus at his word, and it becomes obvious. The Pharisees rejected his words and so the miracles became another reason to hate him.

 

The Christian view of history is that of ongoing revelation. We know more than the people of Moses' time because we have the benefit of more revelation in the form of the scriptures. The prophecies of the old testament give information about what the coming Messiah would be like. Jesus fulfilled every prophecy, and yet because of the hardness of the hearts of the Jewish leaders, they ignored the signs and plotted to murder Jesus.

 

That Quote you gave you mistakingly translate literally where as obviously jesus if he said it meant it metaphorically and even if he meant it literally its not evidence that he said I am God .

 

But miracles are not proof that any1 is genuine or not

 

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

 

2 Pet 2:1 [NIV] But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.

 

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

 

So If false prophets have done miracles whats the big deal with jesus's miracle ?

 

it means God Almighty gives permission to people to perform miracles as no way can humans perform these miracles from their own selves including jesus PBUH .

 

There are clues regarding the trinity in the OT, like Abraham in Genesis 18:

"1 Then the Lord appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground, 3 and said, "My Lord, if I have now found favor in Your sight, do not pass on by Your servant. 4 Please let a little water be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree. 5 And I will bring a morsel of bread, that you may refresh your hearts. After that you may pass by, inasmuch as you have come to your servant." They said, "Do as you have said."

 

Three men addressed as Lord. Abraham lapsing from singular to plural in the same paragraph. All three answering Abraham. All three receiving his worship--no angel would ever receive worship. It's not definitive, but it's a clue to a mystery that is later revealed in Jesus Christ. In Genesis, why does God refer to himself as singular when speaking to others but plural when reasoning within himself? There are clues about the trinity all through the old testament. The Jews reject the trinity because they reject Jesus as Messiah, and therefore do not recognize these clues. Come face to face with Jesus Christ and the parts fall together.

 

My dear friend me :D .

 

Do you think that such an important aspect of your belief the trinity , that god almighty will only give you clues and not say it out straight and forward ?

 

If there was a trinity than the Jews would have known this and Believed in it , why only did it appear after you christians came to exist " the Council of NICE to be exact " .

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The trinity implies different personhood but the same essence. Three persons/one essence. Therefore Jesus had the exact same personality as the Father. He has the same values, same purpose, same substance. He plainly said that to see him is to see the Father! (John 14:9) Jesus existed in eternity as God with the Father and Holy Spirit. He willingly laid his glory aside and entered into time and space as a man, submitting himself to the Father and relying on the Holy Spirit. In that state, he was fully human and fully God, but as God emptied himself as a servant. When we say "begotten," we mean that Jesus as a man came into being directly from the Father through Mary, and yet maintained his essential nature, and thus was different from every other human being. All the scriptures that speak of Jesus only doing what the Father tells him is further evidence to me that they remained of one mind. It would have been impossible for Jesus to do something different from the Father.

 

The Subject of this thread is Eli eli Lama Sabachtani , meaning My Lord My Lord Why have thou 4saken me , If jesus was one with god like you claim in essence then why did he have to cry this out on the cross , why didnt the father and hghost whos essence is the same like the sons feel the pain of the nails and the agony of the son ?

 

Allah SWT tells us in the holy Quran

 

They have not valued Allah with His true value. But on the Day of Resurrection, the entire earth will be in His grip, and the heavens shall be rolled up upon in His Right. Exaltations to Him! Exalted high is He above all that they associate! 39:67

 

Al Faqeer, I don't wonder that this makes no sense from your perspective. Your foundation is built on a different rock than mine. I am happy to understand more about your beliefs, which is why I came here in the first place, and I am happy to try to explain what Christians believe. I don't understand how Muslims can say the Bible is corrupted on the one hand and then try to use it to attack Christian theology on the other. If it's corrupted, show me how. If it's not, then respect it as a holy book and quote it in context. I will generally keep quiet until someone misquotes the scriptures in order to attack them.

 

Well We use your scripture to prove points to you because you do not believe it is corrupted , what we believe does not make a difference me because in this section we are not on trial but your entire religion is and you are defending it , so we use your witnesses .

 

I hope that makes sense to you .

 

Its great debating with you though , as we learn more about christianity in the process .

 

Thank u .

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Its great debating with you though , as we learn more about christianity in the process .

 

Thank u .

 

Peace Al Faqeer, and thank you for your well-reasoned responses. This last batch caused me to laugh, not because what you wrote was silly, but it revealed to me the great, nay vast differences in our frames of reference. The image that came to me was two blind men trying to have a duel at 20 paces, firing where we think we'll hit and only causing the seconds and witnesses to run for their lives. :D

 

I will respond to this latest batch, but it will probably take a few days because of my schedule. I ask for your patience.

 

One comment I will respond to now, "...you have yet to produce evidence that Jesus is mentioned as god in the old testament or in the whole bible for that matter."

 

Now that one cut me to the quick sir! :D Please go back and read John 1 for yourself. You will see that:

- The Word was in the beginning.

- The Word was with God and was God

- The Word is a He

- The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

- All things were made through Him

- In Him was Life and the life was the light of men

- John the Baptist bore witness of the light

- John (the writer) beheld His glory

- His (the Word) glory as the only begotten of the Father

- He (the Word) is full of grace and truth

- grace and truth came through Jesus

 

Taken as a complete thought, what other possible meaning can these verses have? Who else did John the Baptist bear witness to?

 

I will put together a response in full to your latest responses. I need to pray and meditate as to what will be useful to write.

 

Let me add that I have been blessed by my visits here. I have been touched by the reverence Muslims have for God and the esteem they give Jesus. Any person of goodwill who reveres God and esteems Jesus is my friend, and so I count you as my friends.

 

Peace.

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You see if jesus was god the Jews would have known this wouldnt they? Moses would have preached this and so would Abraham PBUT, so why did they not ?

 

Peace Al Faqeer,

 

Look at the wretched history of the Jews and tell me how good a job they did at recognizing God. Jesus himself said to them:

"Woe to you! For you build the tombs of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. In fact, you bear witness that you approve the deeds of your fathers; for they indeed killed them, and you build their tombs. Therefore the wisdom of God also said, 'I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and persecute,'" Luke 11:47-51

 

Or the parable of the Vineyard:

"Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.' But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.' So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him. Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?" They said to Him, "He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons." Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: 'The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone. This was the Lord's doing, And it is marvelous in our eyes'? Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder." Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they perceived that He was speaking of them." (Matthew 21: 33-45)

 

Jesus certainly thought Moses preached about him:

"These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me." Luke 24:44

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So it seems this new concept of god came only after Eisaa PBUH was raised By God Almighty by the men who followed him...

Absolutely. The revelation of Jesus was a shock. The Jews were expecting a King to drive out the Romans and set up an earthly kingdom. God, in his infinite grace and compassion, abundantly exceeded anything the Jews could hope or imagine. He sent the Son, who established a spiritual kingdom that encompasses the globe and endures 2000 years later. I am not troubled by the lack of clear-cut statements of Jesus' deity before his advent. There are hundreds of prophecies concerning the coming of Jesus, right down to how and where he was to be born. They were a means to test whether a person was messiah or not. Several of those prophecies are clues that God is sending more than a mere man. So like a good mystery novel, God put in the scriptures the clues which were not pieced together until Jesus arrived.

 

Here are some of those prophecies.

 

Ezekiel 34:11-16 God rejects the corrupt Shepherds of israel and promises to do the job himself. Jesus said he was the Good Shepherd. (John 10)

 

Zechariah 12:10 God Himself will be pierced in Jerusalem.

 

Psalm 110: 1-4 The Lord spoke to David's Lord. Who could that be?

 

Isaiah 7:14 Did you know that Immanuel literally means "God in the midst of us?"

 

Isaiah 9:6-7 "For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this."

 

Micah 5:2 But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Though you are little among the thousands of Judah, Yet out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler in israel, Whose goings forth are from of old, From everlasting.

 

How many people can say their goings forth are from everlasting?

 

It is worth remembering that for the first 30 years of the church, the Old Testament was the only Bible the Christians had. They were convincing Jews of Christ's Lordship through what was written of him prophetically in the Jewish scriptures.

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Wise words here :

 

From the Revised Standard Version

 

"How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

 

So its clear the warnings for you were there yet you wish not to see it , even moses predicted that the scripture will be corrupted see Deuteronomy 31:25-29 .

 

Regarding Jeremiah 8:8, you have made an understandable mistake. The scribes were not the people who copied the scriptures, they were the people who interpreted and taught the law. They developed the Talmud, which is a body of opinions about the law. Other translations call them lawyers. Originally it was the job of the priests to teach the scriptures, but as the synagogue system developed, a new class of people arose to teach the law. They missed the point of the law, and thus Jesus had harsher things to say about the scribes than he did prostitutes.

 

Regarding Deuteronomy 31, please reread it. Nowhere does it say the scripture will be corrupted, it says the people will be corrupted. In fact, it assures the legitimacy of the scripture, saying it will stand with the ark as a witness against the corruption of the people of israel. We know the children of israel became corrupted because the scripture records it.

 

The trouble with the Children of israel was not that they corrupted scripture, it was that they ignored it! Are you familiar with this story?

 

"Then Hilkiah the high priest said to Shaphan the scribe, "I have found the Book of the Law in the house of the Lord." And Hilkiah gave the book to Shaphan, and he read it. So Shaphan the scribe went to the king, bringing the king word, saying, "Your servants have gathered the money that was found in the house, and have delivered it into the hand of those who do the work, who oversee the house of the Lord." Then Shaphan the scribe showed the king, saying, "Hilkiah the priest has given me a book." And Shaphan read it before the king.

 

Now it happened, when the king heard the words of the Book of the Law, that he tore his clothes. Then the king commanded Hilkiah the priest, Ahikam the son of Shaphan, Achbor the son of Michaiah, Shaphan the scribe, and Asaiah a servant of the king, saying, "Go, inquire of the Lord for me, for the people and for all Judah, concerning the words of this book that has been found; for great is the wrath of the Lord that is aroused against us, because our fathers have not obeyed the words of this book, to do according to all that is written concerning us." (2 Kings 22:8-13)

 

God preserved the Law to be a witness against the sins of His people.

 

more...

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continued...

 

Furthermore we have the promises of God through the prophet Isaiah

"The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever." (Isaiah 40:8)

 

We have the testimony of the prophets themselves, who until Jeremiah were acting as God's lawyers, calling people to account to obey the law, warning them that they were bringing curses upon themselves by their disobedience. Jeremiah had the job of overseeing the second destruction of Jerusalem. His message was, "It's too late."

 

Isaiah challenged the disobedient nation,

"Have you not known? Have you not heard? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth?" (Isaiah 40:21)

 

Jesus never said the scriptures had been corrupted. He quoted from them extensively, and said, "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." (Matthew 5:18)

 

"The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail."

(Luke 16:16-17)

 

Given the choice of believing you or Isaiah and Jesus, I will believe Isaiah and Jesus, thank you very much.

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That Quote you gave you mistakingly translate literally where as obviously jesus if he said it meant it metaphorically and even if he meant it literally its not evidence that he said I am God .

 

Please look at the forest and not each tree.

 

We have the body of Jesus' statements about himself. Taken as a whole, he claims to be *at least* the unique Son of God. Taken with the rest of the New Testament, he is God.

 

Jesus claims to come from heaven. (John 3:13)

 

He claims to be God's only son. (John 3:16)

 

He claims to predate Abraham. (John 8:58)

 

In John 10:36 he recaps what he just said to the Jews as "I am the Son of God."

 

He blesses, not rebukes Peter for his confession. (Matt 16:15-17)

 

He blesses, not rebukes Thomas for his confession. (John 20:28-29)

 

He tells the Sanhedrin that He is the Son of God. (Matt 26:63-64, Luke 22:70)

 

Jesus claims to have all authority in heaven and earth. He commands us to baptize in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. He promises to be with us always, even to the end of the age. (Matt 28: 18-20)

 

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. (John 6:44-46)

 

Please present an alternative that takes into account all of the claims of Jesus and does not turn him into a complete babbler.

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But miracles are not proof that any1 is genuine or not

 

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

 

2 Pet 2:1 [NIV] But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.

 

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

 

So If false prophets have done miracles whats the big deal with jesus's miracle ?

True, there will be false prophets, and people will be deceived. Be very careful with the miracles of Jesus. He placed a good deal of importance on them as establishing his credentials. The priests and scribes tried to convince people that Jesus did miracles through demonic power. They were seeing with their own eyes the goodness of God and calling it evil. For this reason did Jesus say, "anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but to him who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven."

 

By the way, did you notice the part about Jesus saying it was possible to blaspheme the Holy Spirit? Doesn't that make the Holy Spirit...God?

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My dear friend me :D .

 

Do you think that such an important aspect of your belief the trinity , that god almighty will only give you clues and not say it out straight and forward ?

 

If there was a trinity than the Jews would have known this and Believed in it , why only did it appear after you christians came to exist " the Council of NICE to be exact " .

 

My good friend Al Faqeer, don't you think that if Muhammad were so important that there would be some clear mention of him coming in the Bible? We find in the Old Testament prophecies that predict that the Messiah will be from Abraham's line, from the tribe of Judah, from the line of Jesse, a descendant of David, born of a virgin in Bethlehem, and known as a Nazarene. Now if God felt it important for us to know this about Jesus, wouldn't He have given us some clues about a greater prophet? Anything about Mecca, Medina in there? Is there anything that could only be true about Muhammad and no one else?

 

God did say it straight out, in the person of Jesus Christ. He repeated it through the apostles. You have a religious heritage that informs you otherwise. It cannot substantiate the charges it makes against the gospels, so once again, given the choice as to who to trust, I will choose Jesus.

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If there was a trinity than the Jews would have known this and Believed in it , why only did it appear after you christians came to exist " the Council of NICE to be exact " .

 

The Jews rejected Jesus as Messiah. Why do you assume they would know something that was only revealed after Jesus' advent?

 

Point of fact. The much-maligned Council of Nicea (325 AD) merely consolidated into a simple format the thinking that had preceded it for years. Here are quotes from two of many church fathers from the ante-Nicene era.

 

Justin Martyr (100-165 AD) from his "First Defense"

Well, we do indeed proclaim ourselves atheists in respect to those whom you call gods, but not in regard to the MOST TRUE GOD, the Father of righteousness and temperance and the other virtues....On the contrary, we reverence and worship Him AND THE SON who came forth from Him and taught us these things...AND THE PROPHETIC SPIRIT..

 

Consider the words of Tertullian (155-250 AD) in his book "Against Praxeas"

"We do indeed believe that there is ONLY ONE GOD; but we believe that under this dispensation, or as we say, -oikonomia- [relationship between the persons], there is also a Son of this one only God, His Word, who proceeded from Him, and through whom all things were made and WITHOUT WHOM nothing was made. We believe that He was sent by the Father into a Virgin and was born of her, GOD AND MAN, Son of Man and Son of God, and was called by the name Jesus Christ..."

 

"We believe that He sent down from the Father, in accord with His own promise, the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, the Sanctifier of the faith of those who believe in the FATHER and in the SON and in the HOLY SPIRIT."

 

"...in the case of the present heresy, which considers itself to have the pure truth when it supposes that one cannot believe in the ONE ONLY GOD in any other way than by saying that Father, Son, and Spirit are the very selfsame Person. As if One were not All even in this way, that ALL [THREE PERSONS] ARE ONE -- through UNITY OF SUBSTANCE, of course!"

 

"And at the same time the mystery of the -oikonomia- is safeguarded, for the UNITY is distributed in a TRINITY. Placed in order, the THREE are FATHER, SON, and SPIRIT. THEY are THREE, however, not in condition, but in degree, not in substance, but in form, not in power, but in kind; OF ONE SUBSTANCE, however, and one condition, and ONE POWER, BECAUSE HE IS ONE GOD OF WHOM THESE DEGREES AND FORMS AND KINDS ARE TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, AND OF THE SON, AND OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

 

So yes, the gospel writers did not use the word trinity. They described it and those who followed put into a creed.

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The Subject of this thread is Eli eli Lama Sabachtani , meaning My Lord My Lord Why have thou 4saken me , If jesus was one with god like you claim in essence then why did he have to cry this out on the cross , why didnt the father and hghost whos essence is the same like the sons feel the pain of the nails and the agony of the son ?

 

The scriptures are not clear on this issue. Jesus was clothed in flesh and blood, and the Father was not. Jesus' body was in agony, and while the Father was aware of that agony, that physical pain was Jesus' specific burden to bear. I believe that the Father felt the anguish of Jesus' spirit, since that spirit is the same essence as the Father. Therefore it was not God sending Jesus down to do the dirty work, but all of God participated in the work of redemption just as all of God participated in work of creation.

 

As I said before, for a moment in eternity the unity of the Godhead was disrupted as the Father in eternity broke communion with the Son in time and space. That communion with the Father that was central to Jesus' ministry, and as the final step of his sacrifice, Jesus suffered separation from the Father as all who are judged will be separated from His presence. He cried out to fulfill the prophecy of Psalm 22. Jesus fulfilled every prophecy regarding his ministry.

 

The Lord be with you! You will be in my thoughts during Ramadan.

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My apologies for the blank posts that follow. I posted multiple times in response to Al Faqeer. When I checked, only the first post appeared, after waiting a day, I reposted the subsequent posts. Now I find everything has posted, so I will delete the duplicates.

 

Peace all, and Happy Ramadan!

 

me

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D'oh!

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D'oh! D'oh!

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D'oh! D'oh! D'oh!

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:D :D

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This really is embarrassing...

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...

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Whew!

 

"The Lord bless you and keep you;

The Lord make His face shine upon you,

And be gracious to you;

The Lord lift up His countenance upon you,

And give you peace."

 

-Numbers 6:24-26

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Peace be upon you all

 

ok, I may be a little late. :D

 

I just have one question.

 

Since you keep saying that Jesus is god, I want to know if you can find one verse in any of your bibles where Jesus says,''Iam God,worship me''

 

If you cannot ever find it, how can anyone worship someone who didnt ask to be worshiped?????? :D

 

Question2

 

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son so that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life."

 

Um, so you how come christians are dying like everyone else???? :D

Maybe I just read wrong

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Question2

 

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son so that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life."

 

Um, so you how come christians are dying like everyone else???? :D

Maybe I just read wrong

 

To answer your question here... The death that We as Christians talk about and also what that scripture is talking about is spiritual death. Our everlasting life is with god in heaven , not with our bodies as on earth but with our new spiritually made bodies . the bodies we have as of now are sinful flesh. the bodies we will have will not know sin. i expect alot of comments about this.. mostly ppl with small minds saying that it is false... remember this is my interpretation of what is said. many christians belive differently and many belive the same. maybe ME can ellaborate on what i have said.

 

Now a question for muslims

 

As a tolerant chtistian i feel that our religions are basically 2 different interpertations of the same basic knowledge. that there is one god , we must serve him, and that god is infallible. What do you trully belive about jesus and about his connection with god or Allah as you would say...

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