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If God Is So Powerful...

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I think that's a very precise answer and as concrete as we can get based on the Quran and the Sunnah. Elaboration on the exact reason for man's creation is probably a divine secret (according to Islam, uncountable number of angels praise Allah all the time). When Allah decided to create Adam, the angles questioned "why create men when they will create mischief while we only worship you?" (or something on that line). But Allah replied, "I know what you know not".

 

But I would also like to add, that according to some Sufis (I think I read it in Islamonline), God created mankind solely out of love. I guess that provides the quality of "love" a very high and a very fundamental station in the universe.

 

peace

Alameen

I think we have already established why God created man.To worship him.

What still needs clarification why we need to worship him?

If it's something that we can not know, then we are not liable to worship.

God loves us u say.

I've heard the saying that "Love hurts" now I understand the true meaning of it. :D

 

peace

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I think we have already established why God created man.To worship him.

What still needs clarification why we need to worship him?

If it's something that we can not know, then we are not liable to worship.

 

peace

 

A basic answer is that we need to worship Him because it is pleasing to him. I think other posts have implied the same thing.

 

God loves us u say.

I've heard the saying that "Love hurts" now I understand the true meaning of it. :D

 

Lol. That’s a very Greek/Roman idea that you get from reading plays like Medea.

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A basic answer is that we need to worship Him because it is pleasing to him. I think other posts have implied the same thing.

Ok, so pleasure is good, I'm fine with that.

what about people's pleasure though? I mean i don't like to pray and submit and all the subordination/guilt etc. If the answer is "the test" then we'll be going in circles.

Lol. That’s a very Greek/Roman idea that you get from reading plays like Medea.

I guess so :D .. I never read medea though..:D, still the greek philosophy does have a heavy influnece on western thought. U got something against the Greeks :D

Long Live Kratos :D

peace

Edited by llogical

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Ok, so pleasure is good, I'm fine with that.

what about people's pleasure though? I mean i don't like to pray and submit and all the subordination/guilt etc. If the answer is "the test" then we'll be going in circles.

 

About why do we pray and peoples pleasure,well, here we go;

God Almighty has no need of your worship, nor indeed of anything else. Rather, it is you who needs to worship, for in truth you are sick.If someone who is ill responds to a compassionate doctor who insists on his taking medicines that are beneficial for his condition by saying: “What need do you have of it that you are insisting in this way?â€, you can understand how absurd it would be.

As for the severe threats and fearsome punishments in the Qur’an concerning the giving up of worship, they may be likened to a king, who, in order to protect his subject’ rights, inflicts a severe punishment on an ordinary man in accordance with the degree that his crime infringes those rights.

 

In the same way, the man who gives up worship and ritual prayer is violating in a significant manner the rights of beings, who are like the subjects of the Monarch of Pre-Eternity and Post-Eternity, and is in fact acting unjustly towards them. For the perfections of beings are manifested through the glorification and worship performed by that aspect of them which is directed towards their Maker. The one who abandons worship does not and cannot see this worship. Indeed, he denies it. Furthermore, beings occupy an exalted position by reason of their worship and glorification, and each is a missive of the Eternally Besought One, and a mirror to the Names of its Sustainer. Since he reduces them from their high positions and considers them to be unimportant, lifeless, aimless, and without duties, he is insulting them, and denying and transgressing their perfections.

 

Indeed, everyone sees the world in his own mirror. God Almighty created man as a measure and scale for the universe. And from the world He gave a particular world to each person. This world He colours for him in accordance with his sincere beliefs. For example, a despairing, lamenting, weeping person sees beings as weeping and in despair, while a cheerful, optimistic, merry person sees the universe as joyful and smiling. A reflective man given to solemn worship and glorification discovers and sees to a degree the certain, truly existent worship and glorification of beings, while a person who abandons worship through either neglect or denial sees beings in a manner totally contrary and opposed to the reality of their perfections, thus transgressing their rights.

 

Furthermore, since the one who gives up prayer does not own himself, he wrongs his own soul, which is a slave of its True Owner. His Owner delivers awesome threats in order to protect His slave’s rights from his evil-commanding soul. Also, since he has given up worship, which is the result of his creation and the aim of his nature, it is like an act of aggression against Divine wisdom and dominical will, and he therefore receives punishment.

 

I n S h o r t : The abandoner of worship both wrongs his own soul, which is the slave and totally owned property of Almighty God, and wrongs and transgresses the rights of the perfections of the universe. Certainly, just as unbelief is an insult to beings, so is the abandonment of worship a denial of the universe’s perfections. And since it is an act of aggression against Divine wisdom, it is deserving of awesome threats, and severe punishment.

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About why do we pray and peoples pleasure,well, here we go;

God Almighty has no need of your worship, nor indeed of anything else. Rather, it is you who needs to worship, for in truth you are sick.If someone who is ill responds to a compassionate doctor who insists on his taking medicines that are beneficial for his condition by saying: “What need do you have of it that you are insisting in this way?â€, you can understand how absurd it would be.

salamz

God doesn't need me to worship him?

Interesting bcaz I thought that God created humans to worship him.( let me know i u need reference from quran)

If that's the purpose of us to pray...then that's what god needs/ or atleast wants us to do. But assuming that u r rigt, and God doesn't need us to worship him ...then it's a win win situation. Because he doesn't need people to pray and speaking for myslef atleast I have better things to do (better as more fun since I value fun)

And I do not believe that I am sick.

Again, why must I send myself on a guilt trip or assume that I am sick?

You say I maybe sick but I disagree. Perhaps people who pray are sick? how do we guage who is sick?

We can make this as complicated as we want to but to me the answer is very simple.

God is not omnipotent in this world atleast because human freewill contradicts omnipotence.

If I choose to disobey God, he will not be able to do anything.

He can punish me in the hereafter or take my life in this world but at the end, he can not convert my hatred into love by force.

 

peace

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No he wants us to worship but e doenst need it. As the doctor example given at my first post. He is so compassionate, he never wants his creations (i.e we) to lose heaven. Again read my first quote and after read this; Worship is not the introduction to additional rewards, but the result of previous bounties. Yes, we have received our wage, and in accordance with it we are charged with the duties of service and worship. Because, O soul!, since the All-Glorious Creator, Who clothed you in existence which is pure good, has given you a stomach and appetite, through His Name of Provider, He has placed before you all foods on a table of bounties. Then, since He has given you a life decked out with senses, life too requires sustenance like a stomach; all your senses like eyes and ears are like hands before which He has placed a table of bounties as broad as the earth. Then, because He has given you humanity, which requires many immaterial foods and bounties, He has laid out before that stomach of humanity, in so far as the hand of the mind can reach, an extensive table of bounties as broad as the worlds of both the inner and outer dimensions of things. Then, since He has given Islam and belief, which require infinite bounties and are nourished through countless fruits of mercy and are supreme humanity, He has opened up before you a table of bounties, pleasure, and happiness which includes the sphere of contingency together with the sphere of His sacred Names and attributes. Then, through giving you love, which is a light of belief, He has bestowed on you an endless table of bounties, happiness, and pleasure. That is to say, with regard to your corporeality you are an insignificant, weak, impotent, base, restricted, limited particular, but from being an insignificant particular, through His favour, You have as though become a universal and luminous whole. For by giving you life, He has raised you from particularity to a sort of universality; and by giving you humanity, to true universality; and by giving you Islam, to an elevated and luminous universality; and by giving you knowledge and love of Him, He has raised you to an all-encompassing light.

 

And so, O soul! You have received this wage, and you are charged with a pleasurable, bountiful, easy, and light duty like worship. But you are lazy in this too. If you perform it half-heartedly, it is as though the former wages are not enough for you, and you are overbearingly wanting greater things

 

But what does He (cc) wants:

The price the True Bestower of Bounties wants in return for those valuable bounties and goods is three things: one is remembrance, one is thanks, and one is reflection. Saying, "In the Name of God" at the start is remembrance, and, "All praise be to God" at the end is thanks. And perceiving and thinking of those bounties, which are valuable wonders of art, being miracles of power of the Unique and Eternally Besought One and gifts of His mercy, is reflection. However foolish it is to kiss the foot of a lowly man who conveys to you the valuable gift of a king and not to recognize the gift's owner, to praise and love the apparent source of bounties and forget the True Bestower of Bounties is a thousand times more foolish.

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No he wants us to worship but he doenst need it. As the doctor example given at my first post. He is so compassionate, he never wants his creations (i.e we) to lose heaven

He doesn't need us to worship him yet he wants us to worship him.

Not praying then is going against what God wants, and this Goes against God's omnipotence. Bcaz how is it possible for a powerful God to not get what he wants?

How could puny humans stand between what an almighgty entity wants? If he really wanted us to do something or make something happen, it would happen given it's in the boundaries of logic. Which means I will not ask If God can Kill himself because that may not be logically sound. But as far as being able to make us all pray, he can make it happen if he wanted to.

U might say, but llogical, It's complicated, bcaz we have free will, and even though God can force us, he will not etc etc. It doesn't have to be complicated at all, omnipotence suggests unlimited capabilities, If god wanted something to happen, then he would make it happen. Freewill, apostacy, evil, stupidity...nothing could stand in the way.

If our freewill can go against What God wants, ( pray) then our freewill (in this world) is stronger then God's wants.( a contradiction to the claim of omnipotence)

 

I am not sure how can we prove that we need to pray to him. I can say perhaps that we should or owe to pray but need is such a strong word. I'm thinking need is something essential for survival like food for Body. Praying maybe food of spirit but there are people who don't pray yet still have spirits.

 

He has placed before you all foods on a table of bounties. Then, since He has given you a life decked out with senses, life too requires sustenance like a stomach; all your senses like eyes and ears are like hands before which He has placed a table of bounties as broad as the earth. Then, because He has given you humanity, which requires many immaterial foods and bounties, He has laid out before that stomach of humanity, in so far as the hand of the mind can reach, an extensive table of bounties as broad as the worlds of both the inner and outer dimensions of things. Then, since He has given Islam and belief, which require infinite bounties and are nourished through countless fruits of mercy and are supreme humanity, He has opened up before you a table of bounties, pleasure, and happiness which includes the sphere of contingency together with the sphere of His sacred Names and attributes.

 

If I unleash an aggressive pitbull on you and then provide medical aid, Am I compassionate and Merciful Towards you? No bcaz I am the one who unleased the Pitbull on the first place when I didn't have to.

You can say that I also provided medical -aid which I didn't have to...thus I am merciful ..... but as a whole is it my fault or not?

We (humans) are, pathetic, We are fools, minor insignificant specs of creation that exists out of God's mercy...the subordination can continue ....but who Created Us?

Who made us pathetic and insignificant? Who created Satan and suffering to begin with? Who created this painful test? Tests are designed to guage or measure something, ( maybe goodness/Imaan etc) Why does he need to test us when he already knows the outcome?

Why are we to blame when He has complete control over everything?

(just realized...too many Why's at once.. my fault :D)

 

You mentioned the Bounty thing like a gzillion times :D

IMO Material rewards go against the who purpose of doing what's right therefore they are insignificant. Bcaz If we merely acts as robots just reap all the bounties then our intentions are not free from greed.

About the Bounties that God Bestowed upon us.... is Satan one of them too?

Probably not, Thus their are positive and negative Bounties, Why should we overlook negative bounties that he bestowed upon us when he didn;t have to?

The bottom line is that if god wants something to happen, he will can it happen, that's power. So when unjustice or cruelty occurs, we know that God has the power to contain it yet he doesn't...all the ifs and buts then are insignificant bcaz again... he is powerful.

Peace

:D

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This is a big one, and it applies to all religions really, well, all religions that worship God anyways, and I would like to see how muslims answer it. If God (Allah) is so powerful, then what does he need us for? Why even bother creating us?

 

 

 

Quite simply, God created us because He can.

 

 

 

Peace

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This is a big one, and it applies to all religions really, well, all religions that worship God anyways, and I would like to see how muslims answer it. If God (Allah) is so powerful, then what does he need us for? Why even bother creating us?

 

:D

Brother insginia explained it in a simple way, thanks to him. But if you want a more specific,widely answer, here we go, read it with me be patient because you will get your answer;

Brother! If you want to understand a little about the talisman of the wisdom of the world and the riddle of man's creation and the mystery of the reality of the prescribed prayers, then consider this short comparison together with my own soul.

 

One time there was a king. As wealth he had numerous treasuries in which were diamonds and emeralds and jewels of every kind. Besides these he had other, hidden and most strange treasuries. By way of attainment he had great skill in strange arts, and encompassing knowledge of innumerable wondrous sciences, and was most erudite in endless branches of abstruse learning. Now, like every possessor of beauty and perfection wants to see and display his own beauty and perfection, that glorious king also wanted to open up an exhibition and set out displays within it in order to make manifest and display in the view of the people the majesty of his rule, his glittering wealth, the wonders of his art, and the marvels of his knowledge. And also so that he could behold his beauty and perfection in two respects:

 

The First Respect: so that he himself could behold them with his own discerning eye.

 

The Other: so that he could look through the view of others.

 

With this purpose in mind, the king started to construct a vast and majestic palace. He divided it into magnificent apartments and dwellings, and decorated it with every sort of jewel from his treasuries, and with his own hand so full of art adorned it with the finest and most beautiful works. He ordered it with the subtlest of the arts of his wisdom, and decked it out with the miraculous works of his knowledge. Then after completing it, he set up in the palace broad tables containing the most delicious of every kind of food and every sort of bounty. He specified an appropriate table for each group. He set out such a munificent and artful banquet that it was as though the boundless priceless bounties he spread out had come into existence through the works of a hundred subtle arts. Then he invited his people and subjects from all the regions of his lands to feast and behold the spectacle.

 

Later the king appointed a Supreme Commander (PBUH) as teacher and instructor, to make known the wisdom in the palace and the meanings of its contents; to describe its Maker and its contents to the people, make known the secrets of the palace's embellishments, teach what the arts within it were pointing to, and to explain what the well-set jewels were, and the harmonious embroideries; and to explain to those who entered the palace the way in which they indicated the perfections and arts of the palace's owner, and to inform them of the correct conduct in beholding them, and to explain the official ceremonies as the king, who did not appear, wished them to be. This teacher and instructor had an assistant in each area of the palace, while he himself remained in the largest sphere among his students, making the following announcement to all the spectators. He told them:

 

"O people! Our lord, who is the king of this palace, wants to make himself known to you by making this palace and displaying these things. So you recognize Him and try to become well-acquainted with Him. And He wants to make Himself loved by you with these adornments. Also, He shows His love for you through these bounties that you see. So you love Him too by obeying Him. And He shows His compassion and kindness for you through these bounties and gifts which are to be seen. So you show your respect for Him through thanks. And He wants to display His transcendent beauty to you through these works of His perfection. So you show your eagerness to see Him and gain His regard. And through placing a particular stamp and special seal and inimitable signet on each of these adorned works of art that you see, He wants to show that everything is particular to Him, and is the work of His own hand, and that He is single and unique and independent and removed. So you recognize that He is single and alone, and without peer or like or match, and accept that He is such." And he spoke further fitting words to the spectators like these concerning the King and this station. Then the people who had entered the palace separated into two groups.

 

The First group:Since these knew themselves, were intelligent, and their hearts were in the right place, when they looked at the wonders inside the palace they acted as the King wished. And because the King was pleased at their becoming conduct and manners, he invited them to another special, elevated, ineffable palace. And he bestowed it on them in a way worthy of such a munificent king, and fitting for such obedient subjects, and suitable for such well-mannered guests, and appropriate to such an elevated palace. He made them permanently happy.

 

The Second Group:because their minds were corrupted and their hearts extinguished, when they entered the palace, they were defeated by their evil-commanding souls and took notice of nothing apart from the delicious foods; they closed their eyes to all the virtues and stopped up their ears to the guidance of the Master (PBUH) and the warnings of his students. They stuffed themselves like animals then sank into sleep. They quaffed elixirs which had been prepared for certain other matters and were not to have been consumed. Then they became drunk and started shouting so much that they greatly upset the other spectating guests. They were ill-mannered in the face of the Glorious Maker's rules. So the soldiers of the palace's owner arrested them, and cast them into a prison appropriate to such unmannerly people.

O friend who is listening to this story with me! Of course you have understood that the Glorious Creator built this palace for the above-mentioned aims. The achievement of these aims is dependent on two things:

 

The First: The existence of the Master (PBUH) whom we saw and whose speech we heard. Because if it was not for him, all these aims would be in vain. For if an incomprehensible book has no author, it consists only of meaningless paper.

 

The Second is the people listening the Master's words and accepting them. That is to say, the Master's existence is the cause of the palace's existence, and the people's listening to him is the cause of the continuation of the palace's existence. In which case it can be said that if it was not for the Master (PBUH), the Glorious King would not have built the palace. And again it may be said that when the people do not heed the instructions of the Master (PBUH), the palace will of a certainty be transformed and changed.

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In other words...God just does things because he can..he is powerful and thus in a position where he can demand whatever he pleases without having to answer to no one.

And thus we all must obey him otherwise he will make us pay? I'm sure there is more to this then that....becaus otherwise what you are saying is that God is A Bully.

peace

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Let me tell you what i think about why god created us:

 

God created us cause he has the power. What you are goanna do about it? :D He is just probably exercising his power. (i can sense most of you don't like this opinion, well here's another one).

 

God created us with free will maybe to see if his creations would remain loyal to him if they are given free will (in certain aspects). Maybe this is why, god doesn't intervene in our life directly (i mean you don’t get struck by lightening when you commit a sin.) So, the bottom line is, god wants to see if his creation would worship him if they are left on their own.

 

Anyways, these are just my thoughts (so don’t start a debate on this). Only Allah knows why he created us. Just hope, one day he will answer all our questions (or maybe he already answered them but we are too busy to notice them. Curse free will! :D )

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God created us cause he has the power. What you are goanna do about it?

salams

I can rebell and say God who?.....what's God gonna do about it? punish me....fine...but can he threaten me into praying ? nO. You see the problem? :D

Now that's what I think. don't start arguing with me about it. :D

peace

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salams

I can rebell and say God who?.....what's God gonna do about it? punish me....fine...but can he threaten me into praying ? nO. You see the problem? :D

Now that's what I think. don't start arguing with me about it. :D

peace

 

If the All mighty God wanted to do so, you will be on your knees worshipping him all night and you won't even know why :D

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and I (Allah) created not the jinns and humans except they should worship Me (Alone). (51:56)

 

Thats the simple reason why he created us.

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Why does a being as powerfull as god need mere humans worshipping him???

 

Sounds like gods on a power trip.

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If the All mighty God wanted to do so, you will be on your knees worshipping him all night and you won't even know why :D

 

:D sister!

 

Excellent reply. :D.

 

When God became angry with a people, He just put their whole community upside down. The Dead Sea, the are known as Madain between Madinah and Tabuk, the caves in Jizan, the Pharoahs, etc.

 

If He wants people to obey Him, He can make them obey Him, but He does not want to force anybody. He has given a free will to each one of us. Those who choose the correct path, will benefit, while those who transgress will suffer.

 

Wassalam

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If the All mighty God wanted to do so, you will be on your knees worshipping him all night and you won't even know why :D

Salams

Fine, I won't dispute the possibility of that but in this case, my consent is missing.

I will not be a human with free will but more like a robot.

Forget worshipping,God can even make me whip myself all night, the difference again is that a concious act/decision is missing. Thas why omnipotence is problemetic with respect to free will bcaz if i make a concious decision to disobey God, then the only way I will be honestly willing to obey God is through persuasion that he desrves it. in other words can God force me like him willingly...NO, only I can do that. :D

peace

Edited by llogical

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Why does a being as powerfull as god need mere humans worshipping him???

 

Sounds like gods on a power trip.

 

Anon, concentrate on the words in bold :D

 

By worshipping Him your being thankful to Him

 

 

 

He doesn't need humans to worship Him, He asks us to afterall He created us to. If we don't, it doesnt mean He is helpless, simply because He doesnt take action against us here. When we disobey, He wont punish us in this life, we are merely left on our own , deserted if you like.

 

Now before you get say "hang on why are the unbelievers not the ones suffering then?" The after life is where we shall be brought to account for all that we did in this life and this life is where we, especiallay Muslims are being tested with health , children, wealth , livelihood, all to prove our love for Allah (swt)

 

"We shall indeed test you with situations of fear, hunger and reduction in wealth, lives and fruits, but give glad tidings to the patient ones. Those who when afflicted say 'We are for Allah and to Him shall we return'. On those descend blessings of their Lord and Mercy, and they are the guided".

 

Qur`an 2:155 - 157

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Salaam,

 

Man you talk as if praying is a burden,a big weight on your shoulders,a mission!

 

Well in fact it is the opposite,Allah (SWT) doesn't need our prayers,as said above,we need to pray.Praying to Allah is a blessing.It helps us stay on the path of Islam.

Praying is a protection,it protects the heart and you actually feel a strong force protecting your heart.Allah doesn't get praised enough for His exceptional Art,which is the whole universe,you and I and many other things.Praying 5 times a day,doesn't take time at all.4 rakat takes under 4 minutes.

 

The fact is the prove is all round you that God exists.Have a look at nature!

 

Prayer helps to relax,helps to keep one happy,mashallah,shields a person from difficult times.

 

People will never get 2 tough lives,they will get an easy life here,then a tough life in the Hereafter,or a harder life here and an easier life in Hereafter.

 

No one will get easy,easy,or hard,hard!

 

 

"Why does a being as powerfull as god need mere humans worshipping him"

 

If a friend buys you a £100,000 car,you will love him,praise him,adore him and try make it up to him in the biggest way possible.That is one gift from a friend.

 

Allah gives you infinite blessings,infinite gifts,like parents,every second of this life,your heart lets say pumps 60 times a second,every time it pumps it asks Allah for permission,can I beat,Allah says Yes,this process goes on till you die.Same concept with your breathing.Plus many other blessings,light years more then anyone could give you,

surely Allah deserves to be praised,and worshipped.

 

I feel Allah doesn't get the full praise He deserves to be honest,

its funny because prayer is a blessing,for our own benefit and we neglect it.

 

Well all us brothers and sisters can do is guide and inform,we can't change what is in your heart.

 

As in the Quran it says:

 

"As for the disbelievers,whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them;they believe not"

 

"Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts,and on their eyes is a covering.Theirs will be an awful doom"

 

Think about it!

 

W/s

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If we don't, it doesnt mean He is helpless, simply because He doesnt take action against us here. When we disobey, He wont punish us in this life, we are merely left on our own , deserted if you like.

Salamz

I was wondering..The fact that God won't punish us in this world..how could that be true in light of what happened to the people of Loot (Luut)? ....

Also disregarding that..and assuming that God doesn't indeed punish people in this world..that's a limit. If this is the rule, then God falls victim to this very rule. In other words, in this world atleast, God would not be omnipotent becaz he can't punish us until after death.

Ok..so it's not that he can't punish us, but that he won't punish us in this world... but result is the same.It's like If I promise that I won't eat chocolate, Even if I can , i won't so can't and won't in this context produce the same result ...0% chocolate cunsumption ..( ok stupid example :D ..but i hope u see my point)

An omnipotant God would be able to (not just capable of... but be able to ) do anything that's logically possible (So yes, I won't ask stupid things like" can god make me God" or "can God commit suicide etc" )

Besides, If God doesn't punish us, then what's the story with blindness veil ...I mean keeping one from seeing truth sounds like borderline punishment bcaz being unable to see truth, one is bound to go astray which seem to be enough qualifications for a low rate mortgage in Hell.

I wonder if I'm such victim :D .... I smell a setup :D

 

Peace :D :D

Edited by llogical

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