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al faqeer

Iraq Body Count Press Release

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Shagrid , you wanted " one " example ?

 

Here are 232 examples :

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.theage.com.au/news/Iraq/Over-200-contractors-killed-in-Iraq/2005/01/31/1107020303982.html"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.theage.com.au/news/Iraq/Over-20...7020303982.html[/url]

....and still counting .

 

That says 232 Contractors killed. Not Construction Projects stopped.

 

With insurgent groups destroying infrastructure and preventing the US Army from rebuilding, it shouldn't be a problem for you to find one example , from the hundreds of cases.

 

 

 

Alternatively I can claim the US Army has destroyed Iraq's infrastructre and the rebuilding has been hampered by corrupt Americans and their Iraqi puppets stealing from the reconstruction fund. A statement I can back up with facts! Not sensationalist whine.

Edited by Shagird

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That says 232 Contractors killed. Not Construction Projects stopped.

 

With insurgent groups destroying infrastructure and preventing the US Army from rebuilding, it shouldn't be a problem for you to find one example , from the hundreds of cases.

Alternatively I can claim the US Army has destroyed Iraq's infrastructre and the rebuilding has been hampered by corrupt Americans and their Iraqi puppets stealing from the reconstruction fund. A statement I can back up with facts! Not sensationalist whine.

 

 

Now I want you to think abit here Shagrid , you dont get construction projects completed without contractors . No doubt there are crooks ,for wherever there is money there are crooks , but hey you dont worry for the money , the U S has got plenty , and that corruption you name is not the reason why Iraqis dont have enough electric , not enough police protection etc , that is soley due to the insurgents . If you think otherwise you are simply fooling yourself .

Your argument here is based in contentiousness on your part and nothing more . and you no doubt have gathered your 'select facts ' from your own propaganda sources .

You cannot rebuild infrastructure with people shooting at you , and kidnapping and murdering your employees . You will deny that ?

And of course , WHO is killing Iraqi workers ? You do know that these projects require Iraqi workers dont you ?

 

Who's killing them Shagrid ?

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and you no doubt have gathered your 'select facts ' from your own propaganda sources .

 

Now the BBC is a propoganda source? :D

 

 

You cannot secure a warzone without security!

The US military is at fault for not protecting contractors and building sites.

 

I imagine you will blame Iraqis for resisting the occupation of their land... how dare they!

The war is costing America dearly, they aren't going to commit themselves to rebuilding Iraq. Not when they can blame a group of rebels for defeating the US military and halting construction!

Edited by Shagird

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Now the BBC is a propoganda source? :D

You cannot secure a warzone without security!

The US military is at fault for not protecting contractors and building sites.

 

I imagine you will blame Iraqis for resisting the occupation of their land... how dare they!

The war is costing America dearly, they aren't going to commit themselves to rebuilding Iraq. Not when they can blame a group of rebels for defeating the US military and halting construction!

 

 

Eventuallyn the Iraqi people themselves will throw off the insurgents . There are 18 million Iraqis , high estimates of the number of insurgents is 30 thousand . The only thing that makes them at all noticeable is their bloodthirsty penchant for murder .They can not prevail , all they can do is slaughter as much as they can .....but this will pass also .

 

So the U S is at fault ? Again always someone else to blame , insurgents are murderers who wear the disguise of their victims , no one can defend completely against such cowards and fanatics .

The majority of Iraqi people are to be commended for their bravery and perseverence against these thuggs . The Iraqi people will prevail .

 

So NOW you say the insurgents ARE "halting construction " ????

 

Did you not just ask me to give you a single example of that , implying of course ,that they were not ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for making my point for me . B)

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When you misquote someone, try not to be so blatant about it! :D

 

The war is costing America dearly, they aren't going to commit themselves to rebuilding Iraq. Not when they can blame a group of rebels for defeating the US military and halting construction!

 

So NOW you say the insurgents ARE "halting construction " ????

 

 

Go ahead and list projects which have been stopped...

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Give it up Shagrid . Try reading a newspaper or watching the news once in a while .....but be sure to keep your eyes open . :D

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Go ahead and list projects which have been stopped...

 

Do you really expect there to be a list of "projects" stopped ?!

 

I mean, Iraq is in a mess and we're talking about rebuilding basic infrastructure. We're not talking about building the Hoover Dam or the Great Wall of China ?! So as individual "projects" they're not really worth a mention are they.

 

What exactly do you think those 232 contractors were doing out there ? Holiday ?

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Give it up Shagrid . Try reading a newspaper or watching the news once in a while .....but be sure to keep your eyes open . :D

 

Three years ago, we may have had a similar talk during which you would insist Iraq has WMDs. Back then there would have been dozens of 'facts' for you to draw on. But now we know they were fabrications, "independant" media became a tool for government propoganda.

 

 

 

Three years on, you claim the insurgents have destroyed Iraq's infrastructure and the US is desperately trying to rebuild it! This time round, you don't have the luxury of duped media reports and it shows in your delusional rantings.

 

As you cannot find factual reports, this will be really simple:

Can the insurgents overpower a US military defended site?

Edited by Shagird

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Three years ago, we may have had a similar talk during which you would insist Iraq has WMDs. Back then there would have been dozens of 'facts' for you to draw on. But now we know they were fabrications, "independant" media became a tool for government propoganda.

Three years on, you claim the insurgents have destroyed Iraq's infrastructure and the US is desperately trying to rebuild it! This time round, you don't have the luxury of duped media reports and it shows in your delusional rantings.

 

As you cannot find factual reports, this will be really simple:

Can the insurgents overpower a US military defended site?

 

 

 

Shagrid , I assume you live in a free country ,do you not ? That is you are free to access any part of the internet including Google .

 

Now I'm not going to continue to play childrens games with you .

 

You asked to provide a single instrance of contractors being killed , kidnapped ,shot at etc .......I PROVIDED 232 .

 

 

You then insisted that no construction projects were being halted , slowed down etc , by insurgent violence , and that was after you ADMITTED there had been halts and that they were due "not to insurgents " but "U S failure to protect them " - You have already contradicted yourself , I already have quoted that mis-statement of yours .

 

So , IF you live in a country where internet access is freely accessible , go to Google and type in :

 

Construction projects halted /slowed down by insurgent violence ......Do this , and then coome back and tell me what you have found , otherwise accept that you have lost your argument , because contractors are indeed being murdered , kidnapped , held for ransom ,beheaded , shot at , and intimidated daily , and they number in the hundreds, and this is being done by the insurgents , in addition the rebuilding of Iraq's infrastructure has been slowed and halted in many cases for these reasons .

 

 

So now after losing the argument once , and switching to "halted projects " , and thence losing again , you wish to switch to WMD'S ? .

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Even with that little outburst, you couldn't answer a simple question:

Can the insurgents overpower a US military defended site?

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Even with that little outburst, you couldn't answer a simple question:

Can the insurgents overpower a US military defended site?

 

Oh , you call that an outburst ? What , that I name this game of yours?

 

And NOW , you switch again .......now it's insurgents overpowering a U S military defended site ?

Which is it Shagrid ?

What would you like to argue ?

 

We opened with a statement that the U S is indeed attempting to rebuild the infrastucture that it destroyed while invading Iraq and removing Saddam from power .

 

 

You indicated the U S was not doing that . I said it was , but the task has been hampered , slowed down ,and in some instances halted by insurgent violence against the workers .

 

You said to cite a single instance , I cited 232 .

 

You then jumped to " name one single project that was halted "...I said go to the internet , read the newspaper , watch tv ....it's all there , it's common knowledge , no matter who or where you are , no matter whose side you take , the kidnaps , the murder , the beheadings , the blowing up of police stations , water pipes , oil pipelines , are all evident, it has all been going on for the better part of three years .

Where have YOU been ?

 

On those two items you were proven wrong ....not by me , but by the reality we all know .

 

Then you jump to WMD 's .

 

Now you pose another question , which you are asking for the first time , and you want to know why I didn't answer it before ....gee that's easy Shagrid - you didn't pose that question .

 

How can the military defend every construction site ? You ask a rhetorical question . And if the military is required to defend construction sites , isn't that due to attacks from " some-one " - again you contradict your statement that insurgents are are not the cause for construction delays , else why do you ask this ?

 

You are running yourself in circles Shagrid , that is why I called it a childrens game . You can not substantiate your argument , so you jump to another issue , you have used four so far . What is your point ? Do YOU know what your point is ?

 

The Truth of the matter is , that billions have been spent to rebuild the infrastructure ,and it is being purposely sabotaged by the insurgents . Yes they have been murdering , kidnapping shooting at , and beheading the workers , whether they be foreigners or Iraqis . Yes there is corruption and bribes , just in the proportions you would find anyewhere else , but that is not the cause of the slow progress being made , and you know it . Although that is what you would have me believe , but the facts simply do not prove you out .

A busload of Iraqis going to work is attacked , Iraqis waiting on a line for employment are murdered , WHAT do you call that ?

Shagrid , you are too biased to see things the way they are , and that is your own fault not mine .

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Woo, lots of insurgents eh! what 5000 of them? and how many of the military?

too bad the people of Iraq ( the ones that you say loves USA, the ones that you say asks USA to rebuild the country, the ones that you say wanted USA to invade their country) arent helping you find those few of them. People these days oooops i mean some people these days that think the following way:

 

USA : INNOCENT never even hurt an animal before!.

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Woo, lots of insurgents eh! what 5000 of them? and how many of the military?

too bad the people of Iraq ( the ones that you say loves USA, the ones that you say asks USA to rebuild the country, the ones that you say wanted USA to invade their country) arent helping you find those few of them. People these days oooops i mean some people these days that think the following way:

 

USA : INNOCENT never even hurt an animal before!.

 

 

 

That's easy Pashton , they would and HAVE been killed for it .

And the numbers make no difference , a suicide bomber can infiltrate anything since staying alive is not an option .

 

But I guess according to you there are no insurgents screwing up the construction jobs eh ? Must be Americans blowing themselves up , and zionists in the background .

And the insurgents ? just a bunch of nice guys , what's that ? they're killing Iraqis ? Naaa , can't be the insurgents ....gotta be someone else .

 

Wake up Pashton .

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That's easy Pashton , they would and HAVE been killed for it .

And the numbers make no difference , a suicide bomber can infiltrate anything since staying alive is not an option .

 

But I guess according to you there are no insurgents screwing up the construction jobs eh ? Must be Americans blowing themselves up , and zionists in the background .

And the insurgents ? just a bunch of nice guys , what's that ? they're killing Iraqis ? Naaa , can't be the insurgents ....gotta be someone else .

 

Wake up Pashton .

You dont always use the present to solve problems.

There is something called analyzing history!.

 

Now lets use it and analyze the history of insurgents ok?

Came to existense in Iraq after USA invaded the country.

wow dint even have to go that far or did i have to?

 

so where is the problem now? try and figure it out by yourself ok? i ll give you some time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ahaa you see it because of the Invaders!, USA! Right!. well how do we fix the problem now?

 

hmm so if the non-insurgents became insurgents when USA got there, that means if we subtract USA from Iraq, the insurgents will become non-insurgents right?

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You're making the situation overly complicated, I'm making it simpler to help you understand with logic.

 

How can the military defend every construction site ?

 

Now we're getting somewhere!

If you were a US General and the report said "we cannot defend every construction site". How would you proceed?

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You cant have it both ways fellas .

 

 

You want the U S out - OK ....SO DO I .

 

But you complain that the U S is not rebuilding what it destroyed .

 

You seem to support the insurgents no matter what they do .

 

And one of the things that they are doing , is preventing the U S [and anyone else including Iraqis ] from rebuilding .

 

So , which is it ?

 

It's pretty clear to me , that the insurgents are attempting to trigger a civil war , that much is evident ....perhaps they will .....

AND YOU CAN ANALYZE HISTORY -to come to that conclusion .

 

So I would ask : WHAT is it the insurgents want ? A free Iraq ? Saddam in power again ? An Islamic state ? And if so ...who would rule ? WHICH group ?

 

 

It is also pretty clear what the insurgents want ...a radical Islamic state with their particular style of Islam to dominate .

 

You prove to me , that is what 18 million Iraqis want . For their vote did not indicate that ,that is what they want .

 

But I will say this , either way , should the U S pullout , and the insurgents become the dominating force in Iraq, that is if Iraq is not torn apart completely by civil war , and thus become another terrorist state as was Afghanistan under the Taliban , with radical extremists calling the shots -as was with the Taliban in Afghanistan , and another attack is made or percieved to be imminent , the nuclear option has already been put on the table , especially with the Iranians reaching for nukes and ranting threats to the west .

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Again, you're over-analysing and resorting to propoganda to deflect the question.

 

In a scenario where your forces are spread thin and you cannot defend every site, what do you do?

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The FACT that insurgents are attacking construction workers and construction sites is NOT propaganda . If you have a problem accepting those facts that is YOUR problem .

 

So now you bring up yet a fifth issue .

 

Troops spread to thin ? Yea that's a problem , and again it's because of the insurgents .

 

And you ask"what do you do " ? You seem to have all the answersd you tell me .

I would imagine you do exactly what they are doing , train an army to defend Iraq made up of Iraqis .

 

 

The fact you need to face Shagrid , is , that the insurgents are doing most of the killing , and they are soley responsible for a delay in the rebuilding of the infrastructure, and THAT is because the welfare of Iraq is not their agenda ,their agenda is to create a radixcal Islamic state fashioned in the image of the Talibans , and they dont care who they kill or what they destroy to accomplish that end .

 

And their behavior proves it . WHO has killed the majority of Iraqis in the last months of time ? If your answer is the Americans , then YOU are the victim of propaganda , and your are in denial .

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If you were a US General and the report said "we cannot defend every construction site". How would you proceed?

 

I guess I would have to resort to hoping that the Iraqi's care enough about the future of their country to not hamper its reconstruction.

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a lesson one gotta learn - illegal invasion, imposed democracy and deceitful justification to topple saddam hussein will not gonna lead to a happy ending for iraq :D

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All of your arguments are valid. Arguments on both sides. And why are they valid? It is not the people in this chatroom who throw the bombs and shoot the innocent (or even the guilty). It is our governments.

 

It is easy for an American to blame an Islamic for participating in the religion which is somehow related to the 9/11 attacks.

It is as easy for an Islamic to blame an american citizen for participating in a country which government causes so much greef around the world.

 

What we need to do is stop accusing each other. I feel sad for all americans who lost their lives during the attacks. I feel as sad for each iraqi who lost their lives/their families/ their homes during the war.

 

As it is not appropriate for a true Muslim to defend the 9/11 attacks, it is also not appropriate for any american to defend the point of view of a hypocrite government claiming that they are SAVING Iraq.

 

Let's all do the hard thing. Stop accusing others and show compassion and love to people around the world.

 

Each victim is one too many, and we should focus on that, and not on hate. This means:

 

1. respecting other peoples messages in this forum

2. showing love compassion and understanding

3. stop defending murderers!

 

NO MURDER IS JUSTIFIED, neither from a soldier, neither from a bomber, neither from he who protects his land

 

Peace to everyone

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