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Eoin

Determinism

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Salaam

 

Islam does not reject every aspect of the evolution, but Islam is against the falsehood that everything came out of random, that God Almighty did not create it. Most of the time the Creator is omitted from the equation. Natur is viewed as the creating force, but this is total falsehood.

 

However we do not reject everything but we also to the same time do not approve because most of the things we discuss is ghayb, unseen, and it is therefore not very beneficial knowledge because there is not lesson in it. What importance does it make how everything came to existence. The most important thing is that they exist and they are there, and we see them with our own eyes.

 

We don't know how everything on earth was created. We don't know if the creation was a process or immediate. If the evolution really happened then it is a creation of Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala, and it was the will of God Almighty to create everything through a creation process or an evolution. Even if the worm turned to an elephant or the crocodile into a bird the this happened by Kun-Faya-Kun, Be-And-It-Is. Even the adaption of the species to the environments is by the will of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. Nothing happens randomly.

 

We do not have do deal with these superficial topics because as mentioned, they do not benefit us. It this knowledge were beneficial the Qur'an would be filled with information. We should rather contemplate on what we see not how it might have been created or developed.

 

We do not have to deal with this topic because we know what we know, and that even if the whole evolution theory were correct, WE THE HUMAN RACE ARE NOT PART OF IT. It is mentioned in Qur'an how Adam, aleihi salam, was created to show us that Adam and Eve and their descendants are not part of the equation. Even if the Neanderthalman is part of the creation process or evolution, WE THE HUMAN RACE, HUMANITY, HOMO SAPIENS, BNAI ADAM, ARE NOT. We are as part of the possible or impossible evolution as the angels and jinn are.

 

We have the honour that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala created us with his own hands. The earth is a special creation because all other planets of this solar system are dead but the earth lives. We are a special creation and on the Day of Resurrection we will be even a more excellent creation. We are sure that Adam and Eve and their children are not part of any law or part of any evolution.

 

If there were an evolution then it would be comparable to the production of a product in a factory. The machines in a process product the products the mass products. Do the machines really create the products? Do the machines know what they do? If the operator of the machine turns of the power switch, will the machines continue working? Nature like these machines.

Edited by muhsinmuttaqi

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Falseness of the theory of evolution

3/26/2004 8:26:00 AM GMT

 

There are people who say that long ago man was a monkey and he evolved. Is this true? Is there any evidence?.

 

 

 

Answer :

 

Praise be to Allaah.

 

This view is not correct, and the evidence for that is that Allaah has described in the Qur’aan the stages of the creation of Adam. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

 

“Verily, the likeness of ‘Eesa (Jesus) before Allaah is the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: ‘Be!’ — and he wasâ€

 

[Aal ‘Imraan 3:59]

 

This dust was moistened until it became sticky mud or clay that stuck to the hands. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

 

“And indeed We created man (Adam) out of an extract of clay (water and earth)â€

 

[al-Mu’minoon 23:12]

 

“Verily, We created them of a sticky clayâ€

 

[al-Saaffaat 37:12]

 

Then it became dried (sounding) clay of altered mud. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

 

“And indeed, We created man from dried (sounding) clay of altered mudâ€

[al-Hijr 15:26]

 

Then when it dried it became sounding clay like the clay of pottery. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

 

“He created man (Adam) from sounding clay like the clay of potteryâ€

 

[al-Rahmaan 55:14]

 

Then Allaah moulded it into the form that He wanted and breathed into him (his) soul created by Him. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

 

“(Remember) when your Lord said to the angels: ‘Truly, I am going to create man from clay’.

 

So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him (his) soul created by Me, then you fall down prostrate to himâ€

 

[saad 38:71-72]

 

These are the stages through which the creation of Adam passed according to the Qur’aan. As for the stages of creation which the progeny of Adam pass through, Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

 

“And indeed We created man (Adam) out of an extract of clay (water and earth).

 

Thereafter We made him (the offspring of Adam) as a Nutfah (mixed drops of the male and female sexual discharge and lodged it) in a safe lodging (womb of the woman).

 

Then We made the Nutfah into a clot (a piece of thick coagulated blood), then We made the clot into a little lump of flesh, then We made out of that little lump of flesh bones, then We clothed the bones with flesh, and then We brought it forth as another creation. So Blessed is Allaah, the Best of creatorsâ€

[al-Mu’minoon 23:12-14]

 

With regard to the wife of Adam – Hawwa’ (Eve) – Allaah tells us that He created her from him, as He says (interpretation of the meaning):

 

“O mankind! Be dutiful to your Lord, Who created you from a single person (Adam), and from him (Adam) He created his wife [Hawwa (Eve)], and from them both He created many men and womenâ€

 

[al-Nisa’ 4:1]

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Eoin

 

Just to simply answer your let s define brain or intelligence like Spinoza said :

It s the deterministic replies on the un deterministic event that occurs . you clearly agree with me on this but what you fail to see is that the deterministic replies are simply created by us not by anyone else , what you are simply saying that everything has a cause which absolutely true to a certain pont , but your absolutely free to you reaction to a cause you are absolutely free to change your convictions your believes … all the determinism in the human mind is created by us no one else , I suggest that you do some reading about voluntarism and you will be to understand more about this subject

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Peace learner,

 

I've heard of voluntarism but don't know precisely what it entails, I will read into it when I have more time, before I do I have several questions.

 

How is this argument any different to Yousuf's? (I.e. we might be inclined to behave in a certain way by factors outwith our control, however at the end of the day we have the ability to choose.)

 

You say:

 

everything has a cause which absolutely true to a certain pont , but your absolutely free to you reaction to a cause you are absolutely free to change your convictions your believes

 

Forgive me for misunderstanding you here but how can everything have a cause yet leave me free to change my convictions or beliefs?

 

For example, I think the death penalty is morally wrong under any circumstances. Being objective I can say that my moral belief is caused by being brought up within the EU in which such sentences are illegal, statistics that I have seen that demonstrate the death penalty is not an effective deterrant in the USA by comparisons between states with and without the death penalty and no doubt societal influences since I've been born etc.

 

Now according to what I think you're saying, I nevertheless have the ability to 'decide' that the death penalty is fine and to support it. I have no cause or reason to start supporting the death penalty, I have lots of reasons not to support the death penalty. I therefore cannot understand where exactly you believe I have the remotest inkling of free will in this circumstance; and I believe the same logic I have applied in this circumstance can be extended to all circumstances in order to cast heavy doubt on the philosophical belief that human beings have free will.

 

You will note in the above I did not say that I can prove we don't have free will, that is because I cannot. However I've said it before and I will say it again, the burden of proof is not upon me to prove that we do not have free will, the burden of proof is on anybody that supports the idea of free will to prove their theories.

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peace Eoin ,

With all my respect to you but the your arguments are not solid , let s take the last example you gave us , the death penalty , first of all you are not being subjective by endorsing the empirical point of view which states that all our knowledge is a posteriori or the result of our experience , to be objective you have to tell me why you don t agree with rationalism which states that our knowledge is a priori . the burden of proof is not upon me but as you said it s upon you because you are supporting this idea . so your death penalty examples fall it will be disputable when you first prove that the empirical theory is true .

As for hitting the table this is a form of free will, it s stupid to say that it s not so because I m trying to prove that I have free will , only if you do not want me to prove that , how can I prove something if I don t do nothing , specially that I m proving it because I want to “voluntarism†!?

Hitting the table is called deterministic replies on the un-deterministic event , but as you see those replies are created by me , I could have chosen instead of hitting the table which is a smart thing to do to prove that I m free to start crying and singing which you agree on this case this will be stupid from my part but in both case I m free with my reply to this event .

 

So as you see those deterministic replies are created by us and in the fact they are not deterministic as they seems to be , they are only called deterministic because they are determined by our intelligence , by us and because they are an adequate solution to a problem we may encounter , in our case the man hit the table to prove he s free .

 

I will end this discussion by commenting on “You will note in the above I did not say that I can prove we don't have free will, that is because I cannot.†So if you can not prove this why should I listen to you and why should I waste my time on proving a thing which you did not prove false . you want me to doubt that 1+1=2 but in the same time you can not prove that 1+1 is not equal to 2 . what s the point !?? when you give me a solid rational prove that we man don t have free will I will reveal the error in you reasoning . please remember that there is more then 1 school of thought ….

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Peace learner,

 

Your whole basis for argument seems to rely on your saying:

 

"Hitting the table is called deterministic replies on the un-deterministic event"

 

Which you then use as an example,

 

"but as you see those replies are created by me , I could have chosen instead of hitting the table which is a smart thing to do to prove that I m free to start crying and singing which you agree on this case this will be stupid from my part but in both case I m free with my reply to this event ."

 

As this seems to be the basis of your argument I would ask you two things:

 

1. What is an un-deterministic event and how does it relate to this discussion? I believe all things have been determined and therefore there is no such thing as an undetermined event. (There is a degree of ambiguity as to whether some things can happen randomly or not, however they don't matter to discussion of free will in human beings as randonimity is hardly free will either.)

To go a bit further with my point of view I would say that I believe all events whether they involve human beings or not have been determined since the beginning of time, whether that be the speed of earths rotation, the depth of the Atlantic ocean or the temperature of the sun. I do not accept that there is such a thing as an undetermined event and I therefore reject your assertion that our reactions are the product of, "deterministic replies on the un-deterministic event".

 

2. In response to your second point you say that you are, "free to start crying and singing." When somebody says you do not have free will. I put it to you that you are not in fact free to choose from any rational response to that event. You are compelled by what comes into your mind first, that is invariably determined by your neurology and the environment in which you have spent your life. A simple means of demonstrating that would be to ask people, "Think of a vegetable as quick as you can." Record the number of people that answer, "carrot" and you will begin to understand what I mean.

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peace Eion ,

On 1 :

Actually eion You are just saying that there a certain laws which govern the universe and clearly there is , if not there will be chaos , but then again there is nothing which is called deterministic event in the universe , the uncertainty principle claims that the universe works in an un-deterministic way or if you prefer in a probabilistic way. You are making an unproved generalization that everything in this world is determined just because there exist some laws which govern the macrocosmic but you are forgetting about the world of microcosm.

On 2 :

For you , for a man to be free is to try contradicting himself , which is clearly stupid , what comes to my mind first is generated by me , only if you think that there is someone else who s thinking in your place and this is called schizophrenia or you are insisting on your empirical point of view which means that you are an unconscious zombie please try proving it ,note that psychology define consciousness as to be free to change and voluntarism states that the will itself, and nothing but the will, is the total cause of its volitions . The will is not determined by another, but determines itself contingenter, not inevitabiliter, to one of the alternatives that are before it.

Also as it seems for me from you earlier example about death penalty it seems that for you if I use my knowledge in making any decisions this means that I m not free , which is with all my respect a stupid idea , my knowledge is the fruit of my thinking and my convictions If yours is not I suggest that you read the Discourse on Method written by Descartes .

Finally if you have heard about Gödel incompleteness theorem it has been used to prove that human mind is not mechanical in nature, which means we man are free, please do a search using Google and you will find the exactitude of my saying.

As I said there are many schools of thought , the majority states that man posses free will , Now you are free to believe whatever you want , but then again freedom is different from stupidity and if you insist on your point of view either give us solid proofs or start by discrediting all other theories which deal with this subject .

Best regards.

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Peace learner,

 

Actually eion You are just saying that there a certain laws which govern the universe and clearly there is , if not there will be chaos , but then again there is nothing which is called deterministic event in the universe , the uncertainty principle claims that the universe works in an un-deterministic way or if you prefer in a probabilistic way. You are making an unproved generalization that everything in this world is determined just because there exist some laws which govern the macrocosmic but you are forgetting about the world of microcosm.

 

Assuming you refer to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle then I would have to make the following point. Heisenberg never claimed that the universe operates probabalistically, he claims humans can only interpret the universe probabalistically because we lack any means of measuring accurately the position and momentum of e.g. an electron, therefore we as humans are incapable of determining for ourselves how the universe works. That is a far cry from saying that the universe is indeterminate. His principle cannot and does not try to answer the fundamental question of whether the universe is determined or not. If you intend to pick me up on not being able to prove that the universe is determined then I commend you for your diligence, however that is not what you have said. What you said precisely was, "deterministic replies on the un deterministic event that occurs." Now if you wish to hit me for claiming the universe is determined, while at the same time you claim the universe is probabalistic then fine, but you should practise what you preach.

 

If this debate truly does come down to a question of whether the universe is determined, then it's effectively me, Stephen Hawking, Albert Einstein and Voltaire VS you and maybe Heisenberg depending on your interpretation. Now consult a reputable book keeper to give you the odds on.

 

(Continued...)

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(Continued...)

 

For you , for a man to be free is to try contradicting himself , which is clearly stupid , what comes to my mind first is generated by me , only if you think that there is someone else who s thinking in your place and this is called schizophrenia or you are insisting on your empirical point of view which means that you are an unconscious zombie please try proving it ,note that psychology define consciousness as to be free to change and voluntarism states that the will itself, and nothing but the will, is the total cause of its volitions

 

I've emboldened perhaps your most accurate statement yet, though you went downhill a bit afterwards. :D

 

I understand your argument but disagree with it. What you have said, quite rightly is that in order for me to accept that human beings have free will, then we would have to be capable of acting completely without reasons, which obviously isn't going to happen. With that in mind I quote:

 

"A man can surely do what he wills to do, but cannot determine what he wills."

- Schopenhauer

 

With that in mind, if you can come up with any particular reason that would cause human beings to have free will other than there being some omnipotent deity that has granted us such a power, then we would be able to have a discussion. However it is my fear that your beliefs are not founded in logic, rather your own desire to believe in something greater than ourselves.

 

As I said there are many schools of thought , the majority states that man posses free will , Now you are free to believe whatever you want , but then again freedom is different from stupidity and if you insist on your point of view either give us solid proofs or start by discrediting all other theories which deal with this subject .

 

"Non est ponenda pluritas sine necessitate." Ockham's Razor

Pluralities ought not be supposed without necessity.

 

There is no necessity for free will to exist, there is no logical reason for it to exist. As far as I'm concerned that covers all that can be covered in order to arrive at the most likely solution.

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Peace eion :

 

On your second post :

Since you seems to like Einstein and quoting ,he said :

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.

 

As for the rest , since you also like Voltaire I will quote him on this : A witty saying proves nothing .

 

On your first one :

 

"deterministic replies on the un deterministic event that occurs."

i explained this earlier , please be kind enough to read my previous posts .

 

on the rest about a probabilistic universe , let me name few scientists , Henri Poincare physician-chaos theory , Edward Lorenz meteorologist-the butterfly effect , Ilya Prigogine Nobel Prize winner in chemistry- Prigogine's Uncertainty, Jung psychologist all his work , it seems he used Heisenberg principle on pshycology ,…… there s a lot more so thx for your advice It was very nice from you to try and help me to learn new things and this is why this will be my last post specially that it s clear to me that my previous ones put an end to your allegations , so I will wish you good luck with your life and a happy new year , by the way Voltaire said : Man is free at the instant he wants to be .

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Peace,

 

Voltaire did not believe in Free Will, he believed in the benefits of freedom of expression in a political sense.

 

Voltaire takes it as given that all events have causes, that the world operates like an "immense machine" (p. 110), but argues that not all actions have results. It may seem strange that someone so passionately attached to freedom should argue for determinism (the belief that everything happens by necessity).

 

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.wsu.edu:8080/~brians/hum_303/voltaire.html"]Notes on Voltaire's Philosophical Dictionary[/url]

 

Let me provide another quote by Einstein that is more related to the topic.

 

"Everything is determined, the beginning as well as the end, by forces over which we have no control. It is determined for the insect as well as the star. Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune, intoned in the distance by an invisible piper." Albert Einstein

 

Incidentally you should read up on why there are not necessarily any contradictions between chaos theory and determinism. Chaos theory does not necessarrilly infer that events are not determined. (Which would rule out at least 2 people you quote as suggesting the universe is necesarrily probabalistic in nature.

 

Happy New Year to you too. Hope you have a good time!

Eoin

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Good thread, Eion. This is the exact reason I refuse to ever join an organized religion. If there is a god like the god of the Christians, Muslims, or Jews, he's just playing games with us. He already knows who's going to heaven or hell and everything that happens between now and then is simply for his own amusement.

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He already knows who's going to heaven or hell and everything that happens between now and then is simply for his own amusement.

How can you like and pray to such god then? The one who plays games with people's lives?

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