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~ Church No Longer Swears By Truth Of The Bible ~

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Catholic Church No Longer Swears By The Truth Of The Bible

 

By: Ruth Gledhill

 

 

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-1811332,00.html"]TimesOnline[/url]

 

 

 

The Bible: What Is It Good For?

 

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,564-1812166,00.html"]TimesOnline[/url]

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:D

 

Subhanallah, thank you for publishing this. This will make certain debates a bit easier... :D

 

:D

AS

 

I just had to edit this to add another subhanallah...times 70 for Ramadan :D

Edited by Allah's Slave

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:D

 

You are most welcome brother, and Subhan Allah indeed :D

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Jazakallah khair and another subhanallah. People want to debate at length about the authenticity of the Bible and the word of God being preserved and all this. I think to myself, YES, Allah CAN preserve his word and it's the QURAN!!!

 

BUT people can't fathom such being true. Inshallah they will seek the truth with open minds. This has truly strengthened my iman and tomorrow inshallah I will print it out and make dua for you.

 

And I quote from the 2nd article:

 

How arrogant can Man get? To decide which parts of God's word are true and which are not beggar's belief! Because the links between the different parts of Scripture make them dependent upon one another, it means that either it is all true, or it is all lies. We cannot have it any other way. Interestingly, Jesus Christ clearly taught that it was all true - so they are saying that God Himself is wrong!

 

Jesus (AS) was right, man was wrong when he changed it, and the Quran is the final edition of the message in original form. Simple. Hopefully some of the followers of the Bible, who are NOT followers of Isa (AS), will get their heads around that once they realize it's NOT THEIR FAULT that the Bible was tampered with.

 

:D

 

:D

AS

Edited by Allah's Slave

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:D

 

Jazak Allah Khayr brother for your precious dua, I am in desperate need of it :D

 

and Dominic's statement is accurate and powerful...

 

The truth always triumphs no matter how long it takes. ultimately, it sees the light of day... Allahu Akbar!

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:D

 

A very interesting article- probably the most interesting one i have all week :D

 

:D May Allah reward you for posting it :D :D

 

:D

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I think the article is a little misleading. Until the Pope says it, the "Catholic Church" hasn't really said anything. I am not a Catholic, but I know it is a tremendously diverse group of people, even within the clergy. To say that something shouldn't be taken literally is not that same as saying it's untrue, although I can understand how the word "untrue" would sell more papers. When the Psalms say something like. "But I am a worm, and no man" it would be silly to think the scriptures meant that the writer was a literal worm.

 

There is room for literary criticism in the Bible, since it contains history, law, poetry, prophecy, and teaching. Sometimes a passage can be poetry or history AND prophecy. Therefore it is useful to know what the passages are to understand them.

 

I would be interested in hearing what Ignatius has to say, since he is a Roman Catholic.

 

But I agree with you my friends, God's word is truth and neither changes nor fades.

 

"For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven, And do not return there, But water the earth, And make it bring forth and bud, That it may give seed to the sower And bread to the eater, So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it." Isaiah 55: 10-11

 

"And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail." Luke 16:17

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Grace and Peace to you all,

 

All I can say is that the author is taking the statements of the Bishops out of context in a very mischievous manner. This is a matter of literal interpretation in the most juvenile fashion versus a deeper understanding of the allegorical or figurative use found throughout Scripture.

 

I can understand how this excites you as Muslims but let me caution you on your choice of allies. The liberal media is not a friend of Christianity nor Islam. If Islam continues to grow in the west you will find the liberal media a grave and resourceful enemy as Christians have found and it will undermine your faith and the faith of your children. Be very careful my friends of the allies you chose. You may see your struggle as one 'against' Christianity but ultimately it is against a far older enemy.

 

With my dialogs with thezman and kamosh lead me to believe their is far more similar between us than we might like to admit at times. I honestly can't say that about the more liberal elements of Western Culture. Paganism is alive and well and it is a powerful advocate for relativism. In time it will turn from Christianity and set it's sites on the truths of Islam in order to water down your faith till its foundations are like mud instead of solid brick. You don't have to take my word for it. Read Losing My Religion: A Call For Help by Jeffery Lang who articulates the decline of Islam over two generations of Muslims exposed to the unending attacks of western liberal culture.

 

Peace 4 Real.

Edited by Ignatius

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Grace and Peace to you all,

 

I can understand how this excites you as Muslims but let me caution you on your choice of allies. The liberal media is not a friend of Christianity nor Islam.

 

Peace 4 Real.

 

Salaam

 

Yes Ignatius has made a good point. The liberal media is generally pretty hostile to faiths like Christanity, Islam etc.

 

It can come in many shapes and forms. You have the more honest liberals who are open and direct about their hostility to Islam.

 

Then you get the other type, who appear more friendly but in the end wish to accomplish the same objectives as the person above.

 

In time it will turn from Christianity and set it's sites on the truths of Islam in order to water down your faith till its foundations are like mud instead of solid brick.

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You may see your struggle as one 'against' Christianity but ultimately it is against a far older enemy.

 

Not at all :D ! I see it as a struggle of truth versus falsehood. The problem isn't that the Bible contains 'allegorical and figurative' use of Scripture...but that it is no longer the words revealed to Isa (AS). As you well know, in Islam, it's taught that the hands of man tampered with that message and this is what precipitated the revelation of the Quran through Muhammad (AS).

 

As I said before, this is through no personal fault of modern day Christians so I don't think they should be offended and, in some cases, feel averse to learning about Islam.

 

We have so much in common because the word of God is the truth!

 

Peace,

AS

Edited by Allah's Slave

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Not at all :D ! I see it as a struggle of truth versus falsehood. The problem isn't that the Bible contains 'allegorical and figurative' use of Scripture...but that it is no longer the words revealed to Isa (AS). As you well know, in Islam, it's taught that the hands of man tampered with that message and this is what precipitated the revelation of the Quran through Muhammad (AS).

 

Grace and Peace Allah's Slave,

 

Well, I appreciate your comments. Could you offer me a quote from the Qur'an clarifying this point? I recall reading something in Al-Qur'an but I felt it was criticizing the ideas derived from Scripture not Scripture itself but I'm not a scholar of Islamic Scripture and Hadith so I'm not here to say that my conclusions are conclusive or even correct. I would like you to offer me your translations to reflect on.

 

Thank you.

 

Peace 4 Real.

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Hi Ignatius,

 

Well...I'm not a scholar of any sort either but the Quran does say this:

YUSUFALI: There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, "That is from Allah," but it is not from Allah: It is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it!

 

PICKTHAL: And lo! there is a party of them who distort the Scripture with their tongues, that ye may think that what they say is from the Scripture, when it is not from the Scripture. And they say: It is from Allah, when it is not from Allah; and they speak a lie concerning Allah knowingly.

 

SHAKIR: Most surely there is a party amongst those who distort the Book with their tongue that you may consider it to be (a part) of the Book, and they say, It is from Allah, while it is not from Allah, and they tell a lie against Allah whilst they know.

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/003.qmt.html"]Source[/url]

and

YUSUFALI: From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.

 

PICKTHAL: And with those who say: "Lo! we are Christians," We made a covenant, but they forgot a part of that whereof they were admonished. Therefor We have stirred up enmity and hatred among them till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will inform them of their handiwork.

 

SHAKIR: And with those who say, We are Christians, We made a covenant, but they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of, therefore We excited among them enmity and hatred to the day of resurrection; and Allah will inform them of what they did.

 

 

 

YUSUFALI: O people of the Book! There hath come to you our Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary): There hath come to you from Allah a (new) light and a perspicuous Book, -

 

PICKTHAL: O People of the Scripture! Now hath Our messenger come unto you, expounding unto you much of that which ye used to hide in the Scripture, and forgiving much. now hath come unto you light from Allah and plain Scripture,

 

SHAKIR: O followers of the Book! indeed Our Messenger has come to you making clear to you much of what you concealed of the Book and passing over much; indeed, there has come to you light and a clear Book from Allah;

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html"]Source[/url]

 

Peace,

AS

Edited by Allah's Slave

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Grace and Peace Allah's Slave,

 

Yes see in your first quote it is clearly a criticism of 'their tongues'. I view this as a criticism of their interpretation of Scripture not necessarily the adulteration of of Scripture itself.

 

In your second quote it appears that criticism is toward their forgetting of their own Scripture and it's 'full' teachings. I don't see a clear or necessary conclusion that the actual 'text' of Scripture has been adulterated.

 

Perhaps you derive this conclusion from later hadith? Please offer me some quotes for reflection.

 

Thank you.

 

Peace 4 Real.

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Grace and Peace to you all,

 

I can understand how this excites you as Muslims but let me caution you on your choice of allies.

 

With my dialogs with thezman and kamosh lead me to believe their is far more similar between us than we might like to admit at times. I honestly can't say that about the more liberal elements of Western Culture. Paganism is alive and well and it is a powerful advocate for relativism.

 

Peace 4 Real.

 

:D

 

Peace Ignatius,

 

I did not post this article to offend any christians, it was a huge and important announcement by the leaders of a very sizable catholic community residing in 3 nations...

 

We do not ally ourselves with liberals or others, we ally ourselves with truth. and the truth as they say shall set you free. I was excited that those leaders finally declared the truth.

 

I am aware of paganisms agenda for mankind, it transcends religions and national boundaries.

 

I also acknowledge that we have more in common than not, and that is greatly appreciated, and welcomed.

 

Furthermore, I wish we can build an excellent dialogue and understanding amongst us.

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Peace Ignatius,

 

I did not post this article to offend any christians, it was a huge and important announcement by the leaders of a very sizable catholic community residing in 3 nations...

 

Grace and Peace thezman,

 

Oh, it was clear to me by your character on this forum that you were not attempting to offend me or anyone else. Being an American Catholic, I'm all to familiar with Bishops falling into error when they drift away from the teachings of the Church Magisterium (i.e. teaching office). Bishops especially Bishops in the west are the weakest in the faith and sometimes stray from the teaching of the Magisterium. Bishops hold authority over the Laity as long as they hold to the truth of the Church. When they stray from that truth they stray from God and His Revelation to the Church. I'm not sure that these statements reveal a straying away as they aren't exactly suggesting what you and the liberal media might be attempting to conclude from them but that is another matter. My point is that a free Bishops don't make changes to doctrinal or dogmatic teachings of the Church, they are in their position of authority to defend the doctrinal and dogmatic teachings of the Church. If they stray from this duty they stray from their duty to the Church and thus become apostate. This would be a grave error and I pray that this is not the case because the Church needs strong leadership.

 

We do not ally ourselves with liberals or others, we ally ourselves with truth. and the truth as they say shall set you free. I was excited that those leaders finally declared the truth.

 

With all due respect, people with agendas ally themselves with others who serve those agendas. In this case, I concluded that as Muslims you allied with the media because they twisted the statements of the Bishops to order to demean the authenticity of the Bible and the Catholic Church. A this time, such distortions serve both the Liberal Media and Muslims in general but just because the Devil is capable of great truths doesn't mean it is wise to take his council. He might be capable of furthering your agenda but such is not His ultimate goal and thus he is not a reliable ally. This is not dissimilar to the Liberal Media. Although they can befriend anyone with a similar agenda (undermine Conservative Christians or undermine the revelations of God) their ultimate agenda is the putting down of all relevant truth and morality. I know many pious Muslims who greatly desire allies in the west but I continue to put forth that such short term self serving of the Muslim agenda with Liberals of the West is a grave mistake. Christians have been involved with them for decades and look at what such an alliance has done to them.

 

Peace 4 Real.

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I also acknowledge that we have more in common than not, and that is greatly appreciated, and welcomed. Furthermore, I wish we can build an excellent dialogue and understanding amongst us.

 

Grace and Peace thezman,

 

Yes, I find this to be true and it continues to be my desire. I feel confident that knowing Muslims and engaging in dialog with them allows me to understand not only my faith but all faiths that praise and honour God, The Almighty and the All Merciful. Amen.

 

PS: I would like to delve a little deeper into Muslim claims as to the adulteration of Christian Scripture. I'd like to reflect on what Islam offers on this issue. If it isn't too "off topic" I'd also like to discuss Al-Nisa as well. I found it to be very moving and so I am moved to inquire further about it.

 

Peace 4 Real.

Edited by Ignatius

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:D

 

Peace Ignatius,

 

Sure I'm open for that. I don't think it's off topic, We can diversify :D

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:D

 

Peace Ignatius,

 

Sure I'm open for that. I don't think it's off topic, We can diversify :D

 

Grace and Peace thezman,

 

I have read Al-Nisa of Al-Qur'an. I found, of particular interest, ayat 157 in which the 'death' of Jesus is called into question. I have heard serveral muslim explanations as to what really happened. Could you offer me you choice of these as to your particular belief as to what happened?

 

Thank you.

 

Peace 4 Real.

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Ignatius,

 

If you read the following two verses in An-Nisa 158--159, that might answer your question.

 

Khamosh

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Salam Everyone,

 

Interesting thread.

 

Wa'salam

Edited by mu'min

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Grace and Peace thezman,

 

I have read Al-Nisa of Al-Qur'an. I found, of particular interest, ayat 157 in which the 'death' of Jesus is called into question. I have heard serveral muslim explanations as to what really happened. Could you offer me you choice of these as to your particular belief as to what happened?

 

Thank you.

 

Peace 4 Real.

 

:D

 

Peace Ignatius :D

 

I was taught what the Verse states, that Allah :D deceived the conspirators who attempted to kill the Prophet Jesus (Peace be upon Him) by making the person who betrayed Jesus (PBUH) to appear like jesus, and he was the one who was crucified in place of the Prophet Jesus (PBUH). and that Allah :D then raised Jesus (PBUH) alive, with body and soul intact to the Heavens.

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Grace and Peace thezman,

 

I have read Al-Nisa of Al-Qur'an. I found, of particular interest, ayat 157 in which the 'death' of Jesus is called into question. I have heard serveral muslim explanations as to what really happened. Could you offer me you choice of these as to your particular belief as to what happened?

 

Assalamu alaikum,

 

Peace Ignatius :D

 

thezman is right. we believe that Jesus was taken up to the heaven and the person who was crucified was the one who betrayed Jesus (i think that is judas iscariot though i'm not sure). everyone thought he was Jesus because Allah made him appear like Jesus..

 

Maybe u could go through the book of Barnabas.. in that book it is according to what i said earlier.. However we don't believe in that book either :D .. it could be someone's work.. we only believe in the Holy Quran :D

 

shahud

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Assalamu alaikum,

 

Peace Ignatius :D

 

thezman is right. we believe that Jesus was taken up to the heaven and the person who was crucified was the one who betrayed Jesus (i think that is judas iscariot though i'm not sure). everyone thought he was Jesus because Allah made him appear like Jesus..

 

Maybe u could go through the book of Barnabas.. in that book it is according to what i said earlier.. However we don't believe in that book either :D .. it could be someone's work.. we only believe in the Holy Quran :D

 

shahud

 

:D Just to clarify what you said, bro. We don't only believe in the Qur'an, but also the Gospel, Torah and Psalms. However, these scriptures have been changed and altered, so we cannot accept them fully. I think that was what you were trying to say. :D

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:D to my Muslim Brothers and sisters, and Peace to the non-Muslims, especially Ignatius!

 

Very nice chain, in friendship and full respect. I pray all discussions were held with this as an example.

 

I believe the benefit from such discussions is a recognition of truth on both sides and the recognition of who constitutes the enemy.

 

The story of Jesus (on him be peace) is as brother thezman has explained. Let me add that any person who does not believe in this cannot call himself/herself a Muslim.

 

Wassalam and Peace out

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Peace Ignatius!

 

As regards the alterations to the Message brought by Jesus (on him be peace) the following explanation is given to verse 3:78 in Tafsir Ibn Kathir, which is recognised as one of the best:

 

This is what happened. When Allah raised `Isa to heaven, his followers divided into sects and groups. Some of them believed in what Allah sent `Isa as, a servant of Allah, His Messenger, and the son of His female-servant.

 

However, some of them went to the extreme over `Isa, believing that he was the son of Allah. Some of them said that `Isa was Allah Himself, while others said that he was one of a Trinity. Allah mentioned these false creeds in the Qur'an and refuted them. The Christians remained like this until the third century CE, when a Greek king called, Constantine, became a Christian for the purpose of destroying Christianity. Constantine was either a philosopher, or he was just plain ignorant. Constantine changed the religion of `Isa by adding to it and deleting from it. He established the rituals of Christianity and the so-called Great Trust, which is in fact the Great Treachery. He also allowed them to eat the meat of swine, changed the direction of the prayer that `Isa established to the east, built churches for `Isa, and added ten days to the fast as compensation for a sin that he committed, as claimed. So the religion of `Isa became the religion of Constantine, who built more then twelve thousand churches, temples and monasteries for the Christians as well as the city that bears his name, Constantinople (Istanbul). Throughout this time, the Christians had the upper hand and dominated the Jews.

 

Peace out

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