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Shaukat

Who Brought The Slaves To America?

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Peace me!

 

Couple of corrections in the message that your post conveys.

 

Calling the slaves Islamic merely shows ignorance of the following facts. I wouldn't read a word of one-sided hypocrisy.

 

1. The Arabs of pre-Islam kept black slaves, like everybody else at the time.

 

2. The Makkan Arabs who reverted to Islam had to flee to Madinah without any of their belongings. In Madinah, the Christians and the Jews adopted families to help them survive.

 

3. There were countless occasions when the Muslims, including the greatest personality ever born, were without food for several days.

 

4. There were no slaves when the proper Islamic government was created. All of them had been freed gradually by the Muslims to attain Allah's favour.

 

Peace out

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Peace Aburafay,

 

4. There were no slaves when the proper Islamic government was created. All of them had been freed gradually by the Muslims to attain Allah's favour.

 

Which period are you referring to, because I don't know of a single time that slaves were not a part of Muslim life until recently.

 

 

1. The Arabs of pre-Islam kept black slaves, like everybody else at the time.

 

The Arabs kept black slaves hundreds of years afterwards also.

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indeed the world condones slavery in different times. but i didn't expect the jews to aggravate the situation in the us

 

mark u, white americans took the us from american indians. then they brought in african slaves. it's double tragedy to put it blandly

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Peace Aburafey!

 

Please forgive my denseness, but I am unsure how to understand your comments to my post. Who's one-sided hypocricy are you referring to? I *believe* you are taking offense at the title of the book I mentioned. The interview with the author made Islam's general practice of slavery seem more humane than what happened elsewhere. Under the Islamic system, slaves could rise to great power and authority. It was, however, still slavery.

 

I don't understand the relevance of preIslamic Arab slaveholding. Islam was born into a world where slavery was the norm, as was Christianity. What am I missing?

 

Your next two points have me baffled. How does this relate to the topic? I am not trying to be difficult; my frame of reference is different enough that I cannot connect the dots with what you have written. Please elaborate.

 

A society-wide emancipation of all slaves seems like a huge stretch, especially when one considers how rapidly Islam spread across Africa and the middle east. Can you please provide a reference? I know that by the time of the 869AD Zanj rebellion, slaves numbered in the thousands in the area around Basra. How long was Muslim society slave-free and why did slavery return?

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but i didn't expect the jews to aggravate the situation in the us

 

They didn't aggravate it any more than any others did. The fact is, there were Jewish slave traders, Christian slave traders and Muslim slave traders all over the world. The Jewish slave traders did not aggravate the situation here any more than the Christians did, in fact much less so.

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....The Jewish slave traders did not aggravate the situation here any more than the Christians did, in fact much less so.

I just fell from my rocking-chair....

 

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.radioislam(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/thetruth/10whsla.htm"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.radioislam(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/thetruth/10whsla.htm[/url]

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Peace to everyone

 

After reading the webside "me" gave us

 

salon/books/int/2001/04/05/segal/index.html

 

I meditated about Shaukat's wisdom when starting this topic, and this English saying came to my mind

 

"If you have a glass roof you should not throw stones to your neigbours' roof",

 

Cheers

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I just fell from my rocking-chair....

 

Pay attention to what you are reading then. Even from your own article it just shows that they were involved, not that they were the leaders by any means. Maybe you should pay more attention to the Aasimov quote that starts off the link you provided, you could learn from it.

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It seems that the issue of slavery is more important to today's cultural clashes than one might first recognize.

 

In the West we embrace change and find it hard to understand those who fear it. We reform our Religions and refine our laws to help make our societies function better.

 

We have been told time and time again that the Quran is the direct word of Allah and therefore is as perfect now as it ever was. It seems clear that the Quran in the very least accepts the concept of slavery, making slavery as acceptable today as ever was.

 

Would a Muslim who denounces slavery be contradicting the Quran?

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Would a Muslim who denounces slavery be contradicting the Quran?

 

 

I don't think so. Quran, so far as I have read, doesn't say you must have slavery or capture people to make slaves. I am aware of the Quran saying that for expiation of certain "sins" you have to free a slave. So I would say the net effect would be abolition of slavery. Slavery could only be maintained through purchase from non-Muslims. Muslims could not capture people/make war for wanting slaves.

 

So you would have non-Muslims set up shop and Muslims would buy slaves from them.

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Requiring slave ownership might be difficult rule to require of all members of a society, just in practical terms if nothing else.

 

If the Quran accepts slavery, as the passages I have read suggest, one who does not accept slavery would seem to be in contradiction with the Quran.

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Requiring slave ownership might be difficult rule to require of all members of a society, just in practical terms if nothing else.

 

If the Quran accepts slavery, as the passages I have read suggest, one who does not accept slavery would seem to be in contradiction with the Quran.

 

Peace gill!

 

The worst thing a person can do is to form an opinion with out-of-context stuff, and through half-baked knowledge.

 

The Qur'an was revealed over a period of 23 years, plus. During this period, society was being transformed from a pagan/beduin one to a highly reformed society. In the initial stages many things that were not so crucial to (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_glossary/glossary_i001.html#Islam"]Islam[/url], but negatively impacted on the people, were ignored/allowed. A case in point is slavery. (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_glossary/glossary_m002.html#Muslim"]Muslims[/url] were allowed to take slaves from the fields of battle. But, they were required to interact with them and give them a proper life, unlike the other societies where slaves were kept in conditions worse than animals.

 

The result was that many slaves became (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_glossary/glossary_m002.html#Muslim"]Muslims[/url], and some even made their mark as Companions of the Prophet :D. Bilal (radhi Allaho anh) is an example.

 

Gradually slavery was de-facto abolished, and there were no slaves in the years following the formation of the Islamic government. Hence, the Qur'an does not accept slavery as you have incorrectly concluded, and anybody who does not take slaves will not be contradicting it.

 

However, let me ask you a hypothetical question. In war, there are three options open to the winning side. Kill the prisoners. Take them captive and put them in prisons (that may take the form of Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, etc.). Or, take them as slaves, use them for your household and give them a first-hand interaction with your way of life. Which would you prefer if you lost a battle and I had the three options to exercise on you?

 

Peace out

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Gradually slavery was de-facto abolished, and there were no slaves in the years following the formation of the Islamic government.

 

Do you have any sources to verify this? (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_glossary/glossary_m001.html#Muhammad"]Muhammad[/url] himself bought and sold slaves and slavery was a continual part of (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_glossary/glossary_m002.html#Muslim"]Muslim[/url] culture for hundreds of years.

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The worst thing a person can do is to form an opinion with out-of-context stuff, and through half-baked knowledge.

 

Gradually slavery was de-facto abolished, and there were no slaves in the years following the formation of the Islamic government. Hence, the Qur'an does not accept slavery as you have incorrectly concluded, and anybody who does not take slaves will not be contradicting it.

 

However, let me ask you a hypothetical question. In war, there are three options open to the winning side. Kill the prisoners. Take them captive and put them in prisons (that may take the form of Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, etc.). Or, take them as slaves, use them for your household and give them a first-hand interaction with your way of life. Which would you prefer if you lost a battle and I had the three options to exercise on you?

Peace Aburafay

 

As I reach down into my huge reservoir of out-of-context stuff and half baked knowledge, I find that there must be at least a few actions that seem worse than forming an opinion, one might be the intentional killing of innocents.

 

Keeping more to the topic, your characterization of the abolishion of slavery in the Islamic world as "gradual" was right on the money. What year did King Faisal abolish slavery in Saudi Arabia, 1962?

 

(www.)"http://hrw/mideast/saudi/labor/"]Human Rights Watch[/url]

 

Reformation is a good thing, even if done at a snail's pace. Other reforms might be beneficial in order to produce a successful modern society.

 

What option would I prefer to have you "exercise on me" if I lost in battle to you? That question was certainly well characterized as hypothetical :D It is difficult for me to imagine making the choice of cleaning your toilet.

 

Perhaps there are more three ways to deal with a defeated opponent. One could spend his blood and treasure to establish a consentual goverment and a free economy. Create conditions that allow individuals to have productive lives, allowing them to build a better life for their children. Ensuring that we don't meet have to meet on the battlefield again is a more important issue.

Edited by gill

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Keeping more to the topic, your characterization of the abolishion of slavery in the Islamic world as "gradual" was right on the money. What year did King Faisal abolish slavery in Saudi Arabia, 1962?.....

 

How slavery was controlled by Islam – let us hear from a French female scholar, Annemarie Schimmel, in “Islam: An Introductionâ€

 

“Slavery was not abolished by the Koran, but believers are constantly admonished to treat their slaves well. In case of illness a slave has to be looked after and well cared for. To manumit [free] a slave is higly meritorious; the slave can ransom himself by paying some of the money he has earned while conducting his own business. Only children of slaves or non-Muslim prisoners of war can become slaves, never a freeborn Muslim; therefore slavery is theoretically doomed to disappear with the expansion of Islam. The entire history of Islam proves that slaves could occupy any office, and many former military slaves, usually recruited from among the Central Asian Turks, became military leaders and often even rulers as in eastern Iran, India (the Slave Dynasty of Delhi), and medieval Egypt (the Mamluks). Eunuchs too served in important capacities, not only as the guardians of the women's quarters, but also in high administrative and military positionsâ€

 

Now coming to the question of when Saudi Arabia abolished slavery – Let me reverse the question – ‘When slavery was abolished in the US?’ Or why it’s still practiced in israel?

 

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.radioislam(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/historia/zionism/tradeinwomen.html"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.radioislam(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/historia/zionism/tradeinwomen.html[/url]

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Peace to everyone, and specially to you.

 

Hi Gill, I liked this.

 

"As I reach down into my huge reservoir of out-of-context stuff and half baked knowledge..."

 

Sharp shot, Gill, thank God someone with humor better than Woody Allen. I suppose in Texas there are more people with good humor, in NY they are more stressed, I have a friend there.

 

I was thinking that

 

Could it be that the reason why some people like history so much is because they live in it? Or

What percentage of people’s attention is given to the past and to the present? Above a certain percentage which is probably the same for every individual, one is living in the past.

 

Another thing related with the past seems to me that perhaps one day countries like North Korea, Cuba, Iran, Mauritania and Sudan will associate or form a league or group to defend communal interests in the UN, which might be logical, after all they seem to be species of regimes in danger of extinction and it seems clear to me they are worried about their survival, and if your worry too much for too long could you end up paranoic? I am going to consult a political psychiatrist to find out.

 

Most similar species perished in the 20 century when democracy, a strange new species which was thought to be extinct after the last specimen died in Greece 2000 years ago, experienced a rebirth and growth due to favorable climatic conditions. Perhaps the French Revolution, the British Carta Magna, the US, and many people as different as Bolivar, Kemal Ataturk, Einstein and Ghandi are perhaps to blame for the change in climatic conditions.

 

Keep on with your sharp humor, Gill, it compensates me for having to read some things. :D

 

Cheers

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Do you have any sources to verify this? Muhammad himself bought and sold slaves and slavery was a continual part of Muslim culture for hundreds of years.

 

Peace Livius!

 

Please read the articles at (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.islamicinvitationcentre.co/articles/Introduction/slavery/slavery.htm"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.islamicinvitationcentre.co

/art...ery/slavery.htm[/url]

 

and at

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.answering-christianity(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/quran/incomplete_rebuttal.htm#slaver"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.answering-christianity(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/qura...tal.htm#slavery[/url]

 

Peace out.l

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Peace gill!

 

Peace Aburafay

 

As I reach down into my huge reservoir of out-of-context stuff and half baked knowledge, I find that there must be at least a few actions that seem worse than forming an opinion, one might be the intentional killing of innocents.

 

You never fail to amaze me with your anti-Islamic quips. "Intentional killing of innocents" is less morbid than locking them up in Gitmo without a charge. Or killing them with carpet bombs thrown from miles above. Even a wedding procession was not spared the treatment, killing all the poor people who were going to attend a marriage.

 

Keeping more to the topic, your characterization of the abolishion of slavery in the Islamic world as "gradual" was right on the money. What year did King Faisal abolish slavery in Saudi Arabia, 1962?

 

(www.)"http://hrw/mideast/saudi/labor/"]Human Rights Watch[/url]

 

Read the article at (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.arabview(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/articles.asp?article=353"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.arabview(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/articles.asp?article=353[/url].

 

As I have pointed out in an earlier post, slavery was gradually abolished in Islam, and we should be talking about Islam in this part of the Forum. If Muslims are guilty of practicing something that is not allowed, they are guilty, and should be a topic elsewhere.

 

Reformation is a good thing, even if done at a snail's pace. Other reforms might be beneficial in order to produce a successful modern society.

 

Islam does not need reformation. It will remain as it is till the end of this world. Musli countries can change their laws and culture to comply with the wests imposed systems, but Islam is the most reformed system. I know you will disagree, but it does not matter in the least what you believe.

 

What option would I prefer to have you "exercise on me" if I lost in battle to you? That question was certainly well characterized as hypothetical :D It is difficult for me to imagine making the choice of cleaning your toilet.

 

I had certain more menial chores in mind. Nevertheless, you opt for the other two.

 

Perhaps there are more three ways to deal with a defeated opponent. One could spend his blood and treasure to establish a consentual goverment and a free economy. Create conditions that allow individuals to have productive lives, allowing them to build a better life for their children. Ensuring that we don't meet have to meet on the battlefield again is a more important issue.

 

You must be joking! The performance of your government in Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, Kabul, etc., has probably not reached you in the newspapers. By the way, which paper do you read? The Austin Chronicle or the Bay City Tribune. Do they contain anything about your neighbouring state?

 

Peace out

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Could it be that the reason why some people like history so much is because they live in it?

As the saying goes- "Only fools don't learn from the mistakes, or racism from their past history.

 

Another thing related with the past seems to me that perhaps one day countries like North Korea, Cuba, Iran, Mauritania and Sudan will associate or form a league or group to defend communal interests in the UN, which might be logical, after all they seem to be species of regimes in danger of extinction

The only 'regime' which seems to be in sure danger of 'extinction' is Zionist israel - Which according to USAID ($3 trillion since 1948) was declared as 'parasite state' by EU. The Zionist entity has survived on western aid and the US vetos (over 60) so far - And how long you think the Americans would keep supporting such a liability?

 

Most similar species perished in the 20 century when democracy,...

Now that's where I fell from kitchen stool - laughing on same ignorance - patting himself. The so-called western democracy is less than five centuries old. The so-called Greek and Roman 'democracy' were nothing but 'aristocracy' - which, incidentally is the case in the US now - A small minority (2%) of Jews and rich Christian families running the show.

 

Nice try though.....

 

a strange new species which was thought to be extinct after the last specimen died in Greece 2000 years ago, experienced a rebirth and growth due to favorable climatic conditions. Perhaps the French Revolution, the British Carta Magna, the US, and many people as different as Bolivar, Kemal Ataturk, Einstein and Ghandi are perhaps to blame for the change in climatic conditions.

 

Keep on with your sharp humor, Gill, it compensates me for having to read some things. :D

 

Cheers

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Peace to everyone.

 

Hi, Shaukat

 

"Now that's where I fell from kitchen stool"

 

First you fall from the rocking chair and now from the kitchen stool.

I suggest you just lie flat on the floor and stay that way meditating a bit before attempting anything.

 

Cheers.

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Is that the new order you got directly from Abe Foxman, natioal director of ADL or Ariel Sharon :D

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Peace Aburafay,

 

The first link you posted does not work for me, but I did read the second.

 

The second link referred to quotes about slavery in (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_glossary/glossary_i001.html#Islam"]Islam[/url] that I had seen before. It went over Islamic laws concerning the treatment of slaves. According to your own link a Muslim should free a Muslim slave if he kills a believer. This in punishment, not because (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_glossary/glossary_i001.html#Islam"]Islam[/url] was against slavery. If you break an oath you can feed 10 people or free a slave. Freeing a slave was just an option.

 

I still have never seen anything to indicate that slavery was abolished as you claimed. Plus, we are talking about the practice of slavery, not the theory of it. It is my claim that neither (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_glossary/glossary_i001.html#Islam"]Islam[/url] nor Christianity can be blamed for slavery or the treatment of the slaves, but we can surely call out the (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_glossary/glossary_m002.html#Muslim"]Muslims[/url] and Christians that took part in the African slave trade.

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"It is my claim that neither Islam nor Christianity can be blamed for slavery or the treatment of the slaves, but we can surely call out the Muslims and Christians that took part in the African slave trade."

 

Here! Here!

 

 

"Is that the new order you got directly from Abe Foxman, natioal director of ADL or Ariel Sharon"

 

What a silly and counterproductive thing to say. How does levelling petty and anti-Jewish insults at someone address the issue in anyway whatsoever? Let's not have any more of that please.

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Peace Livius!

 

Peace Aburafay,

 

According to your own link a Muslim should free a Muslim slave if he kills a believer. This in punishment, not because Islam was against slavery. If you break an oath you can feed 10 people or free a slave. Freeing a slave was just an option.

 

If I may add a small note to show where you have erred in your conclusion. The 'punishment' is for people living 1400 years back. It is not ongoing. Why it is not a punishment, is visualised if you look at it from the point of view that the society was being transformed and the biggest asset for everyone was being abolished gradually.

 

I still have never seen anything to indicate that slavery was abolished as you claimed. Plus, we are talking about the practice of slavery, not the theory of it.

 

It is purely a difference in paradigm. What I see as clear abolishing in a gradual way does not appear as abolotion to you as you want to see it in clear terms. But, the end result was that during the life of Mohammed :D slaves ceased to exist in Madinah.

 

It is my claim that neither Islam nor Christianity can be blamed for slavery or the treatment of the slaves, but we can surely call out the Muslims and Christians that took part in the African slave trade.

 

Agreed. I fully endorse your claim and add that people who try to single out either are the ones at fault.

 

Peace out

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