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Yasnov

Atheist's Psychology

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Not everyone has those parts. I don't. I'm guessing most atheists don't. I don't feel anything when I pray, inside me there is no sense of a higher power.

You can't just say you don't have it. Your condition today won't be the same with your condition in the next three months or three years later, you may say it now that you don't feel it, but what about a few months or years later? Many atheists have embraced Islam. Please keep that in mind. Some people can't feel happiness, and others can't feel sadness. But it doesn't mean that they are right in making a conclusion that such things do not exist.

 

You may ask, why! Why is there a religious part of our brains?!

No, I won't ask you that. It's not that important to me. Do you also claim that you know where exactly the happiness and sadness reside ...?

 

Unfortunately, now, we have logic. We have the idea of human rights.

So, does your possession of newly found logics and idea of human rights make you no longer needs the feeling of happiness?

 

We have carbon dating. We have fossils. We have answers. But people still have the religious feelings.

I don't understand your point. What is so special about carbon dating and fossils? They are all guess. I don't think you posession of this fossils and carbon dating make you no longer in need of happiness.

 

They demonstrate a pattern of falsity to religious claims.

How so?

 

And to Crunchy Cat ... sorry I can't follow what you said. Try to use simpler language

 

Wassalam,

Y

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There is no Evidence for a God.

Bleh ..

 

A Muslim will typically claim that the Qur'an is evidence -- but so long as the Qur'an contradicts scientific fact (Evolution), then I'm afraid it's not perfect, and certainly not going to win me over.

Qur'an is not trying to win you over. For you your religion, to us our religion.

 

I was not raised a Christian.

This seems to be a common misconception among Muslims: Either you were raised a Muslim, or a Christian/Jew. They seem to ignore the thousands of other religions, or even, not being indoctrinated at all! How naive.

I chose to use Atheists who are formerly Christians as an example to further help me to explain this issue. Do you have a problem with that?

 

Big Guy doesn't have to be in a literal sense..

The fact is you have associated the higher power with a big guy.

 

Not so much...you point people to Quran/Hadith so they can perhaps accept Islam...

Since when you become a self-righteous paranoid like this? Well, if I point people to Qur'an/Hadith, I may hope that they stop slandering and making lies about Islam, right?

 

my aim by recommeding the book is so u can get atheist psychology or atleast see things from few different angles....not to convert you to atheism.

Why should I care with your aim? I do not point people to Qur'an/Hadith just to make them accept Islam as you accused me of doing. Sometime I may do that, but the purpose is to make them understand about Islam or see Islam and Muslims from different angles.

 

Besides I have read quran/hadith and circled some stuff that makes no sense to me

You don't understand what I meant. That's a sarcasm. When some Muslims can't answer Atheists' questions, you complained because you are asked to look into Qur'an/Hadith. And I am here to ask you for a dialogue, not to ask you to recommend me a book. If you really want to make me see another angle about atheism, why don't you just try to explain the book using your own words? That's much simpler

 

Wassalam,

Y

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The fact is you have associated the higher power with a big guy.

Big Guy, Tiny Women what difference does it makes if its not literal?

Since when you become a self-righteous paranoid like this? Well, if I point people to Qur'an/Hadith, I may hope that they stop slandering and making lies about Islam, right?

Since March 13, 11:33 am I guess. :sl:

But to get this right,you have never pointed someone to Quran/Hadith hoping that they would revert ..rather you only point non muslims to Quran Hadith so they can pick up the lies judging by sources that they don't deem credible?

Why should I care with your aim? I do not point people to Qur'an/Hadith just to make them accept Islam as you accused me of doing. Sometime I may do that, but the purpose is to make them understand about Islam or see Islam and Muslims from different angles/

You don't have to care about aim, recycling ,global warming or anything that you don't want to. Freedom of expression/thought all the way :sl:

And I am sorry for accusing you a crime such as Dawa, when your clear intention was rather... geometical?

 

You don't understand what I meant. That's a sarcasm. When some Muslims can't answer Atheists' questions, you complained because you are asked to look into Qur'an/Hadith. And I am here to ask you for a dialogue, not to ask you to recommend me a book. If you really want to make me see another angle about atheism, why don't you just try to explain the book using your own words? That's much simpler

Well.. if your answer point to a verse in Quran/Hadith then I wouldn't complain.

But i get your point...sou don't want book recommendation,rather have us rephrase....understood.

Though I don't see any question/speculation you posed that wasn't addressed...book was just a bonus :no:

Peace

 

 

peace

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ANOTHER THING:

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetcognitiveliberty(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/neuro/neuronewswk.htm"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetcognitiveliberty(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/neuro/neuronewswk.htm[/url]

 

Basically I believe religion was useful for a long time. I believe that there are parts of the human brain responsible for religious feeling, in fact there ARE parts of the brain responsible for religious feeling. They have images of them becoming active when people pray, they can stimulate the parts of the brain with magnates and it makes people "feel god."

 

Not everyone has those parts. I don't. I'm guessing most atheists don't. I don't feel anything when I pray, inside me there is no sense of a higher power. Other people justify religion by saying they "feel a higher power." But that's just the brain.

 

You may ask, why! Why is there a religious part of our brains?! Basically because religious societies survive much better than non-religious ones. Religions set out rules for people to live by (don't kill your neighbor) and put people in power (see: priests) which makes it more likely for people to keep their genes going.

 

Unfortunately, now, we have logic. We have the idea of human rights. We have carbon dating. We have fossils. We have answers. But people still have the religious feelings.

 

ohhh I wasn't born with the same biological make up as you, Ive got something different that doesn't make me feel praying...oh boo hoo!!!!

 

This is what I find with most atheists they dont seek religion they always look at religion with a bias look at other atheists scientific arguments Evolution etc (although if they looked hard enough would find that the quaraan doesnt fully reject evolution) and sit there and use their argument that "I tried praying and didnt feel anything, I didn't feel a higher power inside me"

 

You see this is what I don't understand what do you expect when you pray do you think I can feel some invisible ghostly hand touch me on the shoulder? or some angel to come and swoop me up and take me into the clouds. I personally think that SOME and I stress SOME of you atheists have just built up such an exaggerated image of what religion is, that people think if you convert your not going to have anymore trials or suffering in your life and that your going to some far away existence from the harsh gritty reality of the world we live in. You therefore sit in your rational little bubble and take any chance at religious debate as an excuse to flaunt your "I know better than you because Ive read more internet forums than you" attitude. (this is only a generalization and in now way aimed at ALL you atheists.)

 

You see for your argument my friend that some of us are BORN with parts of the brain that give us religious imagery wth?? Then It wouldn't explain why many atheists have converted and gone back in seek of religion. Also your argument about religious societies is void as your saying they only existed as a way of passing on our spiritual connection genetics? NOW for the all knowing scientific rational minority you sure sound like your churning stuff out of a science fiction novel.

 

My next question is for Illogical and its a simple one out of pure curiosity, I mean Ive seen you around the boards and some of your posts have been really nice and insightful, you are obviously intelligent and you have well over 2,000 posts but my question is for someone who is so certain of his beliefs of gods non existence you sure do hang around the Islamic board quite alot. Most non Muslim members usually either come and ask some questions and/or argue abit and leave but I was wondering why you've been around for so long with so many posts?

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My next question is for Illogical and its a simple one out of pure curiosity, I mean Ive seen you around the boards and some of your posts have been really nice and insightful, you are obviously intelligent and you have well over 2,000 posts but my question is for someone who is so certain of his beliefs of gods non existence you sure do hang around the Islamic board quite alot. Most non Muslim members usually either come and ask some questions and/or argue abit and leave but I was wondering why you've been around for so long with so many posts?

I troll..I mean visit :sl: other forums too but this forum is addictive, and I have a never ending thirst for knowledge ( in ghetto terms..llogical=knowledge whore :D ).

There are a bunch of reasons, but to be brief I know that stuff gets redundant and diminishing returns kick in, but one still learns.So it's all about knwoledge and learning bcaz knowledge is true power..

And here you thought I was intelligent :no: ..prove you wrong :sl: .

 

I never claimed to be "someone who is so certain of his beliefs of Gods non existence"...

I honestly can't say if ther is a God or Not...and proving No God, or deconstructing any religion doesn't benefit me in anyway.

Based on what I know, my current hypothesis would be

There isn't enough Evidence to prove God exists or Otherwise.

Theology suggests that there is a God, that's their hypothesis...(God exists).

So I play the devil's advocate, or support the Antithesis, in order to test the validity of that hypothesis .

Im really sleepy so hope it makes sense. :j:

peace

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ANOTHER THING:

 

you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetcognitiveliberty(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/neuro/neuronewswk.htm

 

Basically I believe religion was useful for a long time. I believe that there are parts of the human brain responsible for religious feeling, in fact there ARE parts of the brain responsible for religious feeling. They have images of them becoming active when people pray, they can stimulate the parts of the brain with magnates and it makes people "feel god."

 

Not everyone has those parts. I don't. I'm guessing most atheists don't. I don't feel anything when I pray, inside me there is no sense of a higher power. Other people justify religion by saying they "feel a higher power." But that's just the brain.

 

You may ask, why! Why is there a religious part of our brains?! Basically because religious societies survive much better than non-religious ones. Religions set out rules for people to live by (don't kill your neighbor) and put people in power (see: priests) which makes it more likely for people to keep their genes going.

 

Unfortunately, now, we have logic. We have the idea of human rights. We have carbon dating. We have fossils. We have answers. But people still have the religious feelings.

 

Very good stuff inside that reply. It is true that almost everybody has those brain centers responsible for religious feelings. But the accessability to those centers is not the same for everybody. Some people's treshold to activate those centers is lower than others. Some people to percieve God in very early age. Some of us only get to feel it when we are faced with a natural disaster and many of the atheists only on the death bed. It is God's blessing to have a fully functional sense of God.

 

Thus we all are hardwired to believe. We are gifted with this perception of God. We are born with it. It is in our genes. Thus believeing in God is so natural and the normal thing to do. Expaining religion by evolution is a clear paradox.

 

We don't argue about the sense of vision. We simply rely on it and make our scientific observations based on it. We feel fortunate than the blind. The same with the sense of religion. We feel blessed than those who don't experience it.

 

Now the atheists argue with us suggesting logic has repleaced the religion. Well as vision can't replace hearing belief in God can't be replaced by logic or science. They are not match to each other. Let's not mix apples with oranges. Those two can only complement each other. They are not rivals.

 

Since day one, humans had both belief in God and logical reasoning. They complement each other. They don't contradict.

 

I understand atheists well. Since they have never experienced percetion of God they simply don't have clue about the essence of that experience. How can you explain the beauty of a scenery or a picture toa blind man. No way. Unfortunatelly their position regarding religion is the same. They are wandering in the darkness with a candle in their hands. Candle in this case represents the science. They can only see only a limited area around them. They often get lost and find themselves giong in circles without a goal.

 

However a beliver can see the sunshine of the devine truth and walk towards its direction with fast pace.

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Thus we all are hardwired to believe. We are gifted with this perception of God. We are born with it. It is in our genes.

With all due sarcasm..it makes sense...just like gay genes exist, religious genes may also exist. Innateness ..what a fresh concept :sl:. So how do we explain atheist btw..transmutation perhaps? genes gone wild woohoo

I understand atheists well. Since they have never experienced percetion of God they simply don't have clue about the essence of that experience. How can you explain the beauty of a scenery or a picture toa blind man. No way. Unfortunatelly their position regarding religion is the same.

The fact that people revert and or convert suggests otherwise.

I am sure that most will agree that atheist psychology in general can be explained in 3 words.."Lack of proof". :sl:

peace

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You can't just say you don't have it. Your condition today won't be the same with your condition in the next three months or three years later, you may say it now that you don't feel it, but what about a few months or years later? Many atheists have embraced Islam. Please keep that in mind. Some people can't feel happiness, and others can't feel sadness. But it doesn't mean that they are right in making a conclusion that such things do not exist.

 

Questioner is mistaken; there is not "religious part" of our brains. In fact, I doubt any religious sense is innate or instinctual in anyone, though I suppose it's possible. In my estimation, though, socialization plays the primary role in steering persons toward religious and mystical belief. I can hardly imagine anyone who is wholly exempt from such influence, with the sole exception of feral children.

 

That said, I don't think there's anything fundamentally different between theists and atheists. Certainly I've never seen any evidence to that effect. We all have remarkably similar longing and feeling. When a theist claims to have undergone a supernatural experience, all they've actually done is interpret natural phenomena according to religious-mystical preconceptions.

 

How so?

 

Try looking at it this way: Suppose Islam is a true religion, and Muslim teaching is correct. Since Muslims comprise no more than 30% of the theist population, that means at least 70% of religious believers are dead wrong. If we factor in all non-secular religious-mystical believers (Buddhists, Universalists, etc.), that number soars to nearly 80%.

 

What this means is that one of the key types of evidence to support religious arguments--the personal experience and testimony of believers--is rendered so dubious as to be nearly useless. Thus the case for theism begins to topple.

Edited by hatsoff

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Being brought up in a christian family, I've resented the thought of a god for the majority of my life. I think another thing that aided me in being an atheist is that there were so many scientific explanations that I could hide behind, and there was this constant feeling of being ok, without believing in anything more than science. I was very philosophical and still am, it seems that atheists act on their morals more than a belief in an overall power. I see this as ok as long as they have a high moral standing, but if not then they truly need to consider what is seen as right or wrong. I see a need for atheism, because it is a bridge between seeing that there is other things, it is a way of becoming close to yourself and to the higher power.

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With all due sarcasm..it makes sense...just like gay genes exist, religious genes may also exist. Innateness ..what a fresh concept :sl:. So how do we explain atheist btw..transmutation perhaps? genes gone wild woohoo

There is no gayness genes that I am aware of. But it might be variation of genetic expression. Polymorphism?

 

Well, what I know for sure is that populations are compossed from subjects whose characteristics are always in variations. For any given feature there is this Bell curve we use in biostatistics.

 

Atheists are located at one end of the curve (-side), as the belief level of people increases we get into the positive side up to the max point where non-logical believers are located. Atheist are the non-spiritual believers and fundamentalists non-logical belivers. You guys are each others perfect match. :no:

 

People like us, the logical believers find their place at the mid way between 0 point and fundamentalists. The rest is the confused majority.

 

The fact that people revert and or convert suggests otherwise.

That suggests that those people are on the bordeline. Flip flop is easy for them.

 

I am sure that most will agree that atheist psychology in general can be explained in 3 words.."Lack of proof". :sl:

peace

 

Not everything is proof based. Emotions play role, too...

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There is no gayness genes that I am aware of. But it might be variation of genetic expression. Polymorphism?

 

Well, what I know for sure is that populations are compossed from subjects whose characteristics are always in variations. For any given feature there is this Bell curve we use in biostatistics.

 

Atheists are located at one end of the curve (-side), as the belief level of people increases we get into the positive side up to the max point where non-logical believers are located. Atheist are the non-spiritual believers and fundamentalists non-logical belivers. You guys are each others perfect match. :sl:

 

People like us, the logical believers find their place at the mid way between 0 point and fundamentalists. The rest is the confused majority.

 

This only works for heritable traits, and only across interbreeding populations (as opposed to entire species). Believers will not necessarily fit a Gaussian curve, and this is easily seen looking at any relevant data set.

 

That suggests that those people are on the bordeline. Flip flop is easy for them.

 

This may be true in some cases, but in others conversion is a process of overcoming childhood indoctrination, and thus does not reflect any ease to convert a second time to anything but the original religion.

 

I am sure that most will agree that atheist psychology in general can be explained in 3 words.."Lack of proof". :sl:

 

That is one of the key factors, yes.

 

Not everything is proof based. Emotions play role, too...

 

Emotions have no power to justify religious belief.

Edited by hatsoff

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Big Guy, Tiny Women what difference does it makes if its not literal?

I don't really understand your question.

Ok, but why don't you refer to God as tiny woman then? Is it just your patriarchic mind? ; )

Or you subconsciously have always believed that God must be a guy like Jesus? If so, no wonder you came out of the fold of Islam so easily?

 

..rather you only point non muslims to Quran Hadith so they can pick up the lies judging by sources that they don't deem credible?

Since you don't deem Qur'an and Hadith as credible, why do you think an atheist book written by an atheist is credible to me?

 

And I am sorry for accusing you a crime such as Dawa, when your clear intention was rather... geometical?

What is the difference between asking people to read Qur'an so that they can understand Islam, and asking people to read Atheist' book so that he can understand atheism?

 

Though I don't see any question/speculation you posed that wasn't addressed...book was just a bonus :sl:

Thank you then for the bonus. But since you don't deem Qur'an as credible to understand Muslim's point of view, why should I deem an atheist book written by atheist is a credible source for me?

 

Wassalam,

Y

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With all due sarcasm..it makes sense...just like gay genes exist, religious genes may also exist. Innateness ..what a fresh concept :sl:. So how do we explain atheist btw..transmutation perhaps? genes gone wild woohoo

Transmutation doesn't have to be in a literal sense, right?

 

The fact that people revert and or convert suggests otherwise.

I am sure that most will agree that atheist psychology in general can be explained in 3 words.."Lack of proof".

It might not be the real reason. Because I've met quite a large number of atheists who chose to become atheists due to the resentment they had toward religion/the followers of religions, not because they don't feel the higher power in our universe.

 

In my estimation, though, socialization plays the primary role in steering persons toward religious and mystical belief.

True, in today's instantly changing societies, socialization could also play a primary role in steering persons toward atheism.

 

Try looking at it this way: Suppose Islam is a true religion, and Muslim teaching is correct. Since Muslims comprise no more than 30% of the theist population, that means at least 70% of religious believers are dead wrong. If we factor in all non-secular religious-mystical believers (Buddhists, Universalists, etc.), that number soars to nearly 80%.

How do you come up with such percentage? Islam has existed since the first man on Earth. And there have always been people who sincerely submit to God in every civilization and era. They are Muslim.

 

Emotions have no power to justify religious belief.

Emotions + logics do. Psychological scars and traumatized emotional feeling about the word God and religions have no power either to jusfify the rejection of higher power in our universe.

 

. I was very philosophical and still am, it seems that atheists act on their morals more than a belief in an overall power.

There's no doubts that atheists can act on their morals, but the question, how do they tell if something is moral or not?

 

Wassalam,

Y

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There is no gayness genes that I am aware of. But it might be variation of genetic expression. Polymorphism?

Perhaps, my point was that both can't be proven (religious gene or homo genes) but u took the bait..bcaz if there is a genetic component to such behavior then God is responsible for homoness:P

 

Atheists are located at one end of the curve (-side), as the belief level of people increases we get into the positive side up to the max point where non-logical believers are located. Atheist are the non-spiritual believers and fundamentalists non-logical belivers. You guys are each others perfect match. :D

Hmm..sorta sound like a Etwisted rstatistical analysis..Even if people's belief is normally distributed along a particular median belief..there are so many different Gods hence so many different curves to explain us all, and there are no common grounds of comparison.

Not everything is proof based. Emotions play role, too...

Emotions when expressed or articulated can be proof.. :sl: elaborate further what you mean please.

 

Ok, but why don't you refer to God as tiny woman then? Is it just your patriarchic mind? ; )

Or you subconsciously have always believed that God must be a guy like Jesus? If so, no wonder you came out of the fold of Islam so easily?

I guess some times I forget that english is not the first language for many you guys....so let me explain.."Big Guy" in colloquial use usually mean some one with authority, like hot shot, big kahuna..big cheese etc...

Besides, in almost all the religiousdoctrines I've read God is usually referred to as "HE" not 'SHE" or "IT" despite the fact that he is gender nuetral.

Also..like you said, it might be due to the influence of the patriarchial system we live in but neverthless..Big guy doesn't mean "a male homosapian".(Ghost of Freud? :no: Is that you?)....About God being like Jesus (cough..cough..strawman..cough)I can't say..since I don't know what God looks like..though I would think he would eb less hairier then Jesus :D

Since you don't deem Qur'an and Hadith as credible, why do you think an atheist book written by an atheist is credible to me?

Incorrect inference.

I would appreciate if you scroll up and re-read what u quoted in context.. it doesn't make sense to me to repeatedly explain something, then explain the explaination over and over again when spending an extra 10 seconds can do the job.

What is the difference between asking people to read Qur'an so that they can understand Islam, and asking people to read Atheist' book so that he can understand atheism?

Top of my head.."The Dialogues..." is like a 100 times shorter then Quran, and not an Atheist book, Atheism is not a belief but lack of belief in God.

Thank you then for the bonus. But since you don't deem Qur'an as credible to understand Muslim's point of view, why should I deem an atheist book written by atheist is a credible source for me?

You welcome :sl: ..And do show me where I said that Quran is not a valid source to understand Muslim's point of view? :D

I mean I understand that you may have trouble understanding things... as English may not be your first language but you seem to write well, so perhaps you are just reading too fast? :j: I try to be very specific with the point I make so please, slow down.. put away the spectacles of cynicism and don't assume. Deeming not credible was meant from an atheists stand point (which I am not as I distinctly call myself agnostic).

 

I personally have said it many times that I see no point in going head on arguing against Quran or Sunnah.... so at most..I only question the interpretation of verses or seek explaination of them.

Peace

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This only works for heritable traits, and only across interbreeding populations (as opposed to entire species). Believers will not necessarily fit a Gaussian curve, and this is easily seen looking at any relevant data set.

 

Gaussian curve is valid for almost anything that has some variations. Nothing to do with inheritance (I wonder what is your scientific evidence directing your statement). BTW I thought we agreed upon the genetically encoded nature of religion. We are hardwired for belief in God as it was shown regarding the brain centers responsible for religion. But it doesn't mean that the switch was turned off or on in the beginning. Our life experience would direct its destiny. And not only once, for some of us that switch goes back and forth several times.

 

Also the whole empirical science is based on the assumtion of Gaussian curve. Standart deviations determine the confidence intervals of a measurement. Thus its realiability. And in any concept regarding living organisms we see the normal distribution of variables. Thus in any medical study we assume that it is

there.

 

This may be true in some cases, but in others conversion is a process of overcoming childhood indoctrination, and thus does not reflect any ease to convert a second time to anything but the original religion.

If they can stay consistent on one belief for long time, that makes them relativeley stable. There is all kind of people. Normal distribution, you know. The bell curve... :sl:

 

Emotions have no power to justify religious belief.

Emotions have a great role in anything humane. The fear of death can make you more inclined to believe in God. Or your love to your child would make you want to believe in eternal life where you can enjoy the presence of your loved ones forever thus there must be a meaning in this life. Not end but afterlife.

 

Perhaps, my point was that both can't be proven (religious gene or homo genes) but u took the bait..bcaz if there is a genetic component to such behavior then God is responsible for homoness:P

God sets our baseline default characteristics when we come to this world. Certain things we don't control upon. We simply learn to live with them. But there are many other things about our identity that our environment and our personal experience takes part in shaping their content. God gave us the defaults but then gave us freedom of choice regarding certain variations. Depending on our choice our life takes a certain course in which we clearly can appreciate our role and contributions. That is the personal initiative given to us by God.

 

Gayness hasn't been yet proven to be a an inherited condition. There are studies on identical twins and it doesn't show clear genetic correlation. Each of the twins might end up having different sexual preferences. It proves that this is probably a multifactorial condition. It definately is a challange for that person. However even atheists can't defend the normalcy of that condition based on their natural selection and struggle for survival. This is disabling condition which decreases the chance of an individual for multiplication and thus genetic trasfer.

 

Only God knows its meaning. It is challanging for that individual. And God asks us to try our best in preserving the moral values and norms. But I have known gays who were devoted catholic Christians and very careful about their actions in public. Who can say anything to them? Apparently they were in peace with what God has given them. And they were trying to comply with the requirements of their religion at their best. Not all gays are the same. God opens up options for us in the variations.

 

May be all of this life experiance is to come into peace with ourselves and with the destiny God has determined for us. Those who achieve that live relatively more stable life and look into the future with hope of salvation. Those who don't live in a neurosis and panic attacks caused by fear of death.

 

After all, we should come to realize that we can't change certain things. But we can learn to live with them. We can try to supress our imperfections and express the goodness in us.

 

PEACE

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Salamz

Transmutation doesn't have to be in a literal sense, right?

Nothing..even the word "nothing" in literal sense of reality, is not literal.

Pun on word game= fun

but if you mean that we were discussing the possibility of gayness genes being socially transmued socially then no...because we are discussing polymorphism and genetics/transmutation on phsyical level.

 

It might not be the real reason. Because I've met quite a large number of atheists who chose to become atheists due to the resentment they had toward religion/the followers of religions, not because they don't feel the higher power in our universe.

Ok..if they believe in a higher power in the universe..How are they atheists? :sl:

If someone just hates a religion based on it's followers, or hates God based on a religion, then how can he/she be an atheist?

bcaz atheists are people who just don't belive that God exists.

peace

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There is no evidence. There is no evidence. There is no evidence. Everyone is killing everyone over nothing.

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Everyone is killing everyone over nothing.

 

Not quite true:

 

"You're basically killing each other to see who's got the better imaginary friend" - Richard Jeni

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lol no offense , no evidence ? or you mean your not clever enough to realise :sl:

People can build skyscrapers ,spaceships and design computers like this we are exchanging thoughts on..yet too stupid to recognize God? ok fine, let's consider that they are just too stupid despite that.

Do dumb people deserve to go to hell? :sl:

There are those who are mentally challenged or unfit biologically,they don't understand anything..what are they hell fuel also?

About a couple weeks ago, I saw a young guy who couldn't see or hear....well kempt and otherwise sharp fellow.

Despite his handicaps..he was making his way through the jam packed nyc subways in rush hour very promptly..he moved quick and efficiently..and if it weren't for the guide dog and a big badge with "I am Deaf And Blind" you wouldn't notice the difference with the naked eye. Even if we are dumb deaf and blind, we have the ability to rationale and cope with reality. So if God exists ..and wants us to know that he exists..then the proof should be self evident, because the only other possibility to me is that God purposely is trying to deceive us...and if so we stand no chance against his decption since he is omnipotent.

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After some recent discussions with atheists, I think it's not that difficult for atheists to figure out that there is some kind of unique higher power in our universe/multiverse, where things work and behave according to the rules/system set by such higher power. That's how they see what the believers refer to as God.

Your conclusion is at variance with reality. I am an Atheist because I disbelieve in God. I disbelieve in God because I see no evidence of the existence of a power posited to be God.

 

It really is that simple.

 

Why is atheist so defensive against God in many discussions? From most cases, I learned that this has something to do with the trauma of being deceived by religions, which described "God" so clearly in His physical entities. This is a mistake because, anytime they hear the word God, Atheists (those who are of Christian upbringing) automatically associate Him to a man named Jesus, or a man sitting in the clouds, or some strange statues somewhere.

You cannot psychoanalyse a 'group' of people that have almost nothing in common.

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:sl:

 

If I told you that air exists,you would believe me right?

Yes. With good reason. We are able to detect the air. We know that the air exists because of scienctific pursuit. We measure it all the time.

 

Have you ever watched a weather report?

 

Likewise us muslims feel and sense existence of Allah through His wonderful signs out there.

Non-Muslims do not feel this. There is good reason to believe that what you 'feel' from Allah is entirely subjective and based from your own firm emotional conviction that he exists. This 'feeling of Allah' just is not shared amongst anyone sans Muslims exposing it as either a particular consequence of affirming Islam, a farce or rhetoric.

 

Imagine there is a ship,you are on that ship.The ship moves up waves down waves and takes people to their exact location.It has no driver though.It moves by itself and dodgeys big rocks and can sense where people want to be dropped off by.By night this ship rests and by day it travels.It has a mind of its own.

It moves all by itself without anyone controlling it.

Absolutely. That is because a ship is a human invention. We invented to ships to control them. Your analogy is only of value when comparing to another human invention. How you think it has any credibility to the universe is nonsense.

 

 

In reality the ship must have a driver right?

 

The ship is this world and the driver is Allah(God).

The world is natural. The ship is a man-made invention. There is no similarity.

 

So its silly to think the earth turns day and night all by itself,the wind blowing all by itself.

The earth rotation is not 'due to itself' but due to the consequences of natural law. You posit a nonsensical explanation with absolutely no evidence.

 

Allah controls all this that is why the universe is so perfectly in place.

Perfectly in place? So you are unaware of the failing solar systems? You are unaware of stars exploding? You are unaware of the general destructive nature of the universe?

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Never let bigotry remain unchallenged.

 

Atheists psychology is simple. Believeing in eternal universe and meaningless life.

Not all Atheists by definition believe in an eternal universe or meaningless life. Your first two presumptions are strawmen.

 

Once you die you are done. No soul only some higher form of organization of matter and energy. Once this complex systme dies it transforms into a simple plain matter - the soil. They don't have any proofs to support their assumptions because nobbody returned from the grave to give them proofs for what is there.

You seem to have the burden of proof back to front. It is on the claimant to validate their assumptions. Muslims claim there is an after-life and it is upon them to validate their assertions. Moreover, your explanation finds itself at variance with reality. We have excellent reason to believe that death is the end of existence - our system shuts down. The brain ceases to function, the vital organs die and the body no longer moves. We lose all evidence that the individual once inhabiting the body inhabits it now.

 

Atheist lacks the sense for God. They can't feel his existance. They can't make the connections between the signs and facts given by God to supports our comprehension of God in addition to the perception of him so that it further transforms our belief into iman.

So what 'facts' and 'signs' do we not see the connection of?

 

Atheist most of the time is a victim of anxiety. Insecurity and unpredictability of the future and the fear of death constantly is working its way beneath their consciousness.

Do not presume that you can speak for me. You are not me and I have contempt for anyone who so presumes they can. How exactly do you pretend to know what a single Atheist thinks much less all of them? Your world view shows arrogance and presumption, not wisdom.

 

The principle behind their actions is selfishness. Because they believe that is the right way to direct your expecations and actions.

Your ignorance is now at a new level and reflects only on your prejudice. How exactly would you know again what an Atheist thinks about moral issues? I do not believe that selfishness is the correct way to direct your own actions. I do not believe that self-serving is a moral act.

 

Either you accept the credence of my standpoint, or accuse me out being a liar. Either way, I am more entitled by merit of being me to speak for myself than a bigot like you is.

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I understand atheists well. Since they have never experienced percetion of God they simply don't have clue about the essence of that experience. How can you explain the beauty of a scenery or a picture toa blind man. No way. Unfortunatelly their position regarding religion is the same. They are wandering in the darkness with a candle in their hands. Candle in this case represents the science. They can only see only a limited area around them. They often get lost and find themselves giong in circles without a goal.

No you don't.

 

You understand nothing about Atheists. Your bigotry is projection.

 

Atheists are located at one end of the curve (-side), as the belief level of people increases we get into the positive side up to the max point where non-logical believers are located. Atheist are the non-spiritual believers and fundamentalists non-logical belivers. You guys are each others perfect match. biggrin.gif

 

People like us, the logical believers find their place at the mid way between 0 point and fundamentalists. The rest is the confused majority.

Now - this strain of thought irritates me. Do you know why?

 

It is a 'victory dance' so to speak. It is self-righteous, self-absorbed, self-congratulatory ignorance. It covertly attacks a rational approach to discussion. It find it totally abhorrent.

 

Thank you then for the bonus. But since you don't deem Qur'an as credible to understand Muslim's point of view, why should I deem an atheist book written by atheist is a credible source for me?

A book, or text extract is good depending on its content - not who the author is.

 

How do you come up with such percentage? Islam has existed since the first man on Earth. And there have always been people who sincerely submit to God in every civilization and era. They are Muslim.

Only about 20 - 22% of the global population are Muslim.

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Science is another façade of philosophy, but since the topic is about psychology, let me share the portrait of a friend. He doesn’t seem to remember how the fixating on the holes started, all what he knows is that he’s lured by them, and that he can’t wait to unravel their mysteries. Knowing that reality is unreal, smartness has its price, he decided to live in a fantasy world to escape emptiness. Apparently video games were not enough to comble what he felt, a breather had to be found, and luckily he discovered the joy of billiards. It contained all what he asked for, some holes, some balls and a stick, tic-tac, tic-tac, he failed all his shots, and started to feel inadequate in competitions .Simplicity is the solution he thought, hence he decided to play only with himself and was finally able to realize his first triumph .

 

The first complex being elucidated, led to a quest for transformation, kitta (the name explained), tried to win acceptance from his parents. Sadly, worthless salted water is never enough, he stumbled upon an authoritative figure represented by his father who deemed his actions as wicked and wrong, tic-tac, tic-tac, transformation is a must, it’s the only solution for his feeling of inferiority when faced by the black knight. What does my father know, he’s ignorant, I have to satisfy my emotional needs, I have to find acceptance, Mommy is it okay? You are the boss son, consider me yourself, do whatever pleases you, yes, hurray, and a second triumph was realized.

 

Kitta believed that he was smarter than other people, and as such he always emphasized his lucid thought and how he was able to free himself of illusions while denying emptiness. Disengage, he realizes that a one dimensional automaton is always subject to different type of hanging and swings; sometimes it’s just a cloud of numbers, other times it may be a word like the term funny, in all cases it must give an output based on the limited input which it was programmed to process, halt, halt. Ha-ha, a tone is chosen , kitta is unique, disengage on, numbers to the rescue, mirrors on , pathetic acceptance, no pride, generating begun, illusory connections, weird sounds , location unknown ,acceptance on, superficial hasty processing , billiards mechanics diversion, no input to compare ,frustration on , indifference on ,pride off, supervenience off , understanding off, time for some garbage collection, nothing is marked everything is swept, some hanging occurs upon a last realization, emptiness will not be admitted ,looping activated .

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