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Yasnov

Atheist's Psychology

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The truth is supposed to explain things. The truth is supposed to make sense.

What is true will explain things, yes. Whether the truth will make any sense however, is another question. Whether something makes sense depends on our ability to understand it.

 

Truth makes this life meaningful.

Not necessarily. The truth explains what is. We give our own lives meaning.

 

Falsehood and nonsense are on the same camp. Falsehood and nonsense doesn't bring satisfaction and happiness in our life.

This depends. Define 'falsehood'. The game I am currently playing is completely false, but I enjoy it. Nonsense can have hilarity value too.

 

Whatever lie it might be based on doesn't hold water for long. In several decades it perishes.

Example: atheist Soviet Union and its satellites...

You mean the Communist Soviet Union.

 

Now, since we Muslims make sanse and our explanation makes this life meaningful thus we are talking about the truth.

This is begging the question. You already assume that you Muslims make sense and your explanations make life meaningful. I disagree with both when Muslims generally talk about Islam. Secondly, you assume that having a meaningful life and making sense equal objective reality. They do not. Here is your argument, from what I can see:

 

Since whatever you are saying doesn't make any sense and doesn't offer any explanation to the essense of life that means you are very far from the truth.

You assert what I am saying makes no sense yet you highlight nothing in what I have said to demonstrate this.

 

Your way of life is far from claiming happiness and peace. It is more about confusion and compulsions...

Do not pretend to know again what my life is. I am on the verge of reporting you to the moderators in an effort to stop you from lying about me and presuming things about me. You do not know my way of life. You are in no position to declare my life is far from 'happiness and peace' - you don't know me.

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PropellerAds
Well, your argument is useless. After all I bet you are not trying to believe in limited God. You are simply putting your confusions in the way of logic

Betting is haram homie, gotta watch what ya say. :j:

What’s useless to me is making baseless assumptions, what’s useful is addressing the argument.

You are simply putting your confusions in the way of logic

. It would be different if you try to find an answer. Your efforts are against finding an answer. Against any commitment except of the of disbelief..

 

So what you are saying is that you have the answer, but you rather not state what it is because the one seeking the answer ( me) is in reality is not seeking the answer. :sl:

If this is how you think logic works than I am probably better off not hearing that answer.

Assume I supported a limited God he I am almost certain you would be telling why God can't unlimited? Your way of searching for excuse can't help you. You can always find excuses. It is your way of life... Your choice. Going into circles.

:no: ...Might want to rephrase this so it’s comprehensive.

 

The term perfect doesn't mean ideal. Perfect order is there. If there are certain things you don't comprehend you simply call them imperfect, bad and even heretic. That is what inquisition did in middle ages... You are on the smae track. Some incidents prove to bring good consequences only after some period of time... Whatever you are thinking of bad can transform into a higher good in some 10 years...

Again less psycho analysis and more examples would help.

Perfect to me is something that can’t be further improved, something that has no room for betterment etc. Perfect score, perfect square, perfection has no room for improvement.

If the world seems to be in perfect order to you than you need to get out more or open your eyes…innocent dieng, catastrophes, natural disasters, the perfect order exists only in your delusion. If I don’t understand it, but you do, then you should be able to explain it.

Childish reasoning... :D

Then do you believe in two Gods. Don't bother to answer, you don't. You don't even want to commit in one God, how do you reconcile two. You don't.

Does the word sarcasm mean anything to you? :sl:

This makes as much sense as the “temple†Jazz that you honestly tried to feed people.

Then why do you say those things? Not for your own good but only to confuse others with your fruitless arguments and put them in a position like yourself. Bored there eh? But sorry it doesn't work on us.

Us? What you advocate the bird brain community now?

Why does one question?

To gain knowledge……..why else?

You can come o our side. Believe me, more meaningful life and more happiness.

What do you have to offer? Confusion? No thanks...No life...

I prefer bitter truth over sweet delusion any day, and I am not offering you anything…no sacrifice, paradise, angry Germans,70 virgins, noting that will appeal to your greed, self interest or benefit. I am not here to recruit atheists, agnostics, or retards since I represent no faction. I’m just here to know the truth…so I f you claim to know, I will question you till I do, and if in the process you realize that you really can’t defend what you believe than you are not obliged to answer me.

Thus One singularity one God. Unlimited and infinite in good, love, justice and mercy...

That is what gives you the answer. The other possibilities simply don't lead anywhere.

Again, repeating things over and over and over don’t make them right eventually.

A road leading no where is probably a better choice than a road leading to a dead end.

 

Peace

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I prefer bitter truth over sweet delusion any day, and I am not offering you anything…no sacrifice, paradise, angry Germans,70 virgins, noting that will appeal to your greed, self interest or benefit. I am not here to recruit atheists, agnostics, or retards since I represent no faction. I’m just here to know the truth…

 

At least you got to the right place to get to the truth. That is something. But are you trying to acquire it? I am not sure...

Keep looking, though. Don't give up. One they you may find it...

 

Since you don't know the answer about the meaning of life, then you are not offering any solution to any truth seeker.

Your contributions are of no value.

Muslim person is an optimist. Has a hope. Because every Muslim knows this life is real and has a meaning. Thus a hope, too.

That is your main problem. You and your atheist friend are pessimists. This life doesn't have any meaning to you. You may not even consider it as real. Thus for you there is no meaning and no hope. You came and you are going to unknown without guidence. And it is painful experience, too, isn't it?

 

For us there is clear cut goal in this life. We are full of hope, love and forgiveness. Our emotional and intellectual being is complete and in peace.

We are happy.

What else would we want?

I wish you can reach to that level of understanding and harmony!

I feel sad for misguided people like yourself.

 

You take care dude, ad have some life!

Since you came to our forum to look for the truth then try to open your eyes to it. Don't insist in denying it. You are wasting your limited valuable time... What is the point? If you came here for purpose and you couldn't make your mind for so long. Then you may try somewhere else. Unless you are employed to do this...

 

Each of us, we have a mission. Realize that...

I hope yours is not only to confuse people. Why don't you try to guide yourself first...

 

PEACE

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Since you don't know the answer about the meaning of life, then you are not offering any solution to any truth seeker.Your contributions are of no value.

Solution no.

Truth yes.

Maybe I add no value..but then again value depends on perception...one man's garbage maybe another's treasure.

So if you appreciate truth, you can find value, if you appreciate comfort not knowing if it's false, then my contributions will indeed be zero.

Muslim person is an optimist. Has a hope. Because every Muslim knows this life is real and has a meaning. Thus a hope, too.

That is your main problem. You and your atheist friend are pessimists.

Not true at all..atheism/agnosticism isn't necessarily a pessimestic view.

This is why I asked you if you understand the meaning of etic vs emic because I sensed the ethnocentrism/narrow view. It's like a women who grew up in western society looking at all the muslim women who must wear hijab, can't go out partying and co-mingle with men or have a carrer etc. To her that lifestyle is boring, depressing and pessimistic..but the truth maybe that such a women may actually be very happy following Islam and her culture and see it as a positive thing.

 

Just because one rejects a possibility of after life with wine, food, virgins and doves singing, doesn't mean he/she is pessimistic.

Purpose of life maybe unknown but the beauty of this is that you have a choice to select your own purpose and make whatever you want of it. So while you see half full and think others see half empty, you overlook the part that both are part of same reality..I see half full but also half empty and doen't give preference of one over the other.

The pain and sufferin that I pointed out to you was just to illustarte that the world is not perfect like theists usually assume.

This life doesn't have any meaning to you. You may not even consider it as real. Thus for you there is no meaning and no hope. You came and you are going to unknown without guidence. And it is painful experience, too, isn't it?

Again broader your view, you are imposing a subjective view on the atheist world.

It's like a Atheist telling you.."you live your life as a subordinate, obedient robot, who's every action is dictated by a manual. Who's purpose in life is to suppress leisure and embrace humility and duty, and do that to amuse an imaginary creator for an imaginary reward to make life worth living." Now I know you might not see it this way, and I am not saying that this has o be true or false...rather from an emic view this seems as depressing and pessimistic as you make atheists sound now doesn't it?

 

You take care dude, ad have some life!

Since you came to our forum to look for the truth then try to open your eyes to it. Since you came to our forum to look for the truth then try to open your eyes to it. Don't insist in denying it.

You take care as well :sl:, My purpose is to make sense outa things..I am not going to say.."you know what I have been searching for answers for years, so screw it i'll just go back to Islam since searching for answers is too much of a task"..that's not faith/taqwa, rather delusion to escape reality.So most of the times I get no where, many times same stuff is repeated, diminishing returns kick in, but I can't say my knowledge/understanding doesn't increase.So as far as I am concerned, it's time well spent.

 

peace

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Illogical, please desrcibe us your version of "THE TRUTH" regarding the meaning of this life.

That is my only request from you today if I may.

PEACE

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Illogical, please desrcibe us your version of "THE TRUTH" regarding the meaning of this life.

That is my only request from you today if I may.

PEACE

Ok I'll state my view which is ofcource subject to change based upon evidence.

"The true meaning or purpose of life is undetermined"

So "we have no set purpose as far as I see".

Now just bcaz I say that, doesn't mean I am a pessimistic existentialist who thinks this life has no worth.

 

What I am saying is that we can chose whatever purpose fits our fancy knowing there is nothing set in stone.

So we can look at humans as:

 

A creature that holds the best place in nature on top of the food chain, master of his destiny with a freewill do do whatever it pleases.

or

Acreature who eats, sleeps, reproduces, rinses & repeats till dead and recycled.

Or

A creature created for the amusement if a supreme being, subjected to subordination and test to earn a better life in hereafter.

 

hope that answers your question.

 

Peace

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Thank you.

I am not surprised to your answer. Basically no idea, right?

That shows us that no human can find a good answer until he adds his emotions to his intellect.

Otherwise you get your dry answer.

Can you add the meaning of love, beauty and justice to the picture. What is the meaning of those?

Answer please.

 

PEACE

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Thank you.

I am not surprised to your answer. Basically no idea, right?

yes, you welcome...and yea you shouldn't be surprised, I have said this like what atleast 20 times already :sl:

That shows us that no human can find a good answer until he adds his emotions to his intellect.

hmm ......not sure how you infer this.. :no: , I mean If I ask you " What Kind of a beatle can lift 800 times its weight?"You can laugh or cry, or be angryu all yo want if you don't know the answer, no emotion will help you arrive at the correct answer.

Otherwise you get your dry answer.

Can you add the meaning of love, beauty and justice to the picture. What is the meaning of those?

Answer please.

Dry answer is still better than a watered down answer don't ya think?

Again, in simple, all u state dabove are subjective to the eye of the beholder with no set standard that has puzzled many great ancient minds.

Love can be infatuation and gentle as rose-petals and or temporary.

OR

It can be a prolonged state of togetherness and belonging or rough as S&M, it can make life worth living or losing.

 

Justice can be eye for an eye, or forgive and forget depending on circumstance.It can the golden rule of don't do unto others as...blaba" or retribution in the harshest form.

 

Beauty can be in shape of a skinny or plus sized being, or a voluptious hour glass,huge knocker/washboard abs/huge pecs kinda deal.

 

Not sure what God has to do with emotions though..God is supposively a tangible diety with set properties,unlike intangible feelings. So while it's conceivable to meet God, it's not conceivable to meet Mr Happy, or MR Justice or Princess Love etc...but go on.. :sl:

 

Peace

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Dude, you have failed to recognize the role of emotions in your life. You can't even describe "LOVE". How can you make sense of this life without knowing your emotions? What is life without feelings? What is life without love?

No surprise you can't formulate an answer!

Have some life, dude! You can start by trying to love first!!!:sl:

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Dude, you have failed to recognize the role of emotions in your life. You can't even describe "LOVE". How can you make sense of this life without knowing your emotions? What is life without feelings? What is life without love?

No surprise you can't formulate an answer!

Have some life, dude! You can start by trying to love first!!!:no:

Formulate an answer? What you thought I gave ya a recipe for chicken noodle soup? :sl:

 

Ok nevermind Romeo, enlighten me what "LOVE" is all about and how do we acquire it to "Have a life"? :sl:

You seem to be suggesting that not only there is an objective concept of Justice, Love and beuty, but you also know what it is, so go ahead, put me on.

 

 

Peace

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Ok nevermind Romeo, enlighten me what "LOVE" is all about and how do we acquire it to "Have a life"? :sl:

You seem to be suggesting that not only there is an objective concept of Justice, Love and beuty, but you also know what it is, so go ahead, put me on.

Peace

 

No Juliet, That was not an answer. What kind of answer is "Oh, may be love is this or that or something else?

I am not sure!" You call that an answer?

I am not asking you about all the possible aswers out there. I am asking about your personal understanding? Your subjective experience of emotions?

But it seems your understanding on those issues is not clear, either.

Baby you are not even sure what is love? You are not only illogical but you are also confused emotionally!!!

You are total mess. I can't belive that you enjoy that. Poor soul...

But as long as you don't seek refuge in Allah you won't be able to clear that mess up. So bad.

May be the laziest of all humans is of your kind. Agnostics seems to be the laziest of all because they don't find the courage to commit themselves to an idea. Instead they jump from one to another in vicious cycle.

They are not sure about anything. He is not sure about himself. He is not sure about me. He is not sure about his mom or his dad. Ne is not sure about love. He won't belive in unconditional love. Because he would be suspicious about everything. He can't trust himself or anybody else. Total insecurity and low self-esteem. Because if you can't trust yourself or anybody else how you can you love. If you don't hold on some principles you are incosistent.

If your feet don't touch the ground you can't run, you can't jump, thus you can't progress. You are suspended in the air off-gavity like being in space. You are not on Eath. You don't live. You observe but you don't experience what other do. You can only serve as a security cam. You don't find the courage to hold on something to experience it as you should. You get superficial experiences, superficial consequences and as a result a superficial life.

Your choice. Do you enjoy that?

I doubt that...

You area poor soul...

PEACE

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My concept of love is very clear. First of all love is divine blessing. The love we experience is the touch of Allah in our hearts. The ultimate source of Love is Allah SWT.

Love is a feeling in which others become as important as you. It is a feeling of sharing and giving. Love is attraction. Love is positive energy that radiates throu the hearts of people. Love drives an effort for achieving unity and harmony. About achieving equality in goodness. Love is a hope of beauty and eternity...Love is unconditional trust and care. Love is what drives the life here on Earth and also in afterlife. Love is libido. Love is eternal and never dies.

We can inly exist because of the love of Allah SWT. We depend on his love.

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No Juliet, That was not an answer.

As flattered as I am, I don't swing that way homie, but hey, I am not judging :sl:

What kind of answer is "Oh, may be love is this or that or something else?I am not asking you about all the possible aswers out there. I am asking about your personal understanding? Your subjective experience of emotions?

But it seems your understanding on those issues is not clear, either.

K so my description was vague and not personal.

do this, go out and survey 1000 people of different backgrounds, ask them what love is, then compare notes and smack youself for overlooking the simple fact I pointed out b4.."THERE IS NO OBJECTIVE CONCEPT OF LOVE"

Baby you are not even sure what is love? You are not only illogical but you are also confused emotionally!!!

kool name calling :j: ..you are a booboohead :D

Agnostics seems to be the laziest of all because they don't find the courage to commit themselves to an idea. Instead they jump from one to another in vicious cycle.

yet again you generalize all based on the account of one, why am I not surprised :no: .

Let me introduce you to what is called progress.

Jumping from one idea to another for sake of improvment makes more sense than sticking to a stubborn old dumb one that no longer makes any more sense. How would you like if I claim that religious people are self righteous stubborn half wits that only behave according to the outdated teching that have been traumatically hammered and drilled into one's heads from birth? Hey this is turning out to be real insightful :sl:

They are not sure about anything. He is not sure about himself. He is not sure about me. He is not sure about his mom or his dad. Ne is not sure about love. He won't belive in unconditional love. Because he would be suspicious about everything. He can't trust himself or anybody else. Total insecurity and low self-esteem. Because if you can't trust yourself or anybody else how you can you love. If you don't hold on some principles you are incosistent.

So what's this useless rant about? definitely not me i'll tell you that fosho.. unless you who don't know me from a whole in the wall think you know me better than I do...which again doesn't even desreve an asnwer.

If your feet don't touch the ground you can't run, you can't jump, thus you can't progress. You are suspended in the air off-gavity like being in space. You are not on Eath. You don't live. You observe but you don't experience what other do. You can only serve as a security cam. You don't find the courage to hold on something to experience it as you should. You get superficial experiences, superficial consequences and as a result a superficial life.

Your choice. Do you enjoy that?

I doubt that...

You area poor soul...

PEACE

lol, dude are you like hyperventilating while you typing too?, relax , take a deep breath.

You doubt what I enjoy, and yet I am a skeptic...

I enjoy lots of things , for instance , watching a self proclaimed genius making a fool of himself

Honestly, I Rather be a poor soul than delusional fool, any day :D

Peace

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Peace to one and all,

 

Interesting debate going on here, I have gone through all of it, all 10 pages (what can I say, too much free time), inshaAllah will try to put my Million dollar worth post soon, but right now, I would like to remind you to keep away from personal attacks and name calling, because experience says that from there things start turning ugly.

 

Salaam.

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My concept of love is very clear. First of all love is divine blessing. The love we experience is the touch of Allah in our hearts. The ultimate source of Love is Allah SWT.

Love is a feeling in which others become as important as you. It is a feeling of sharing and giving. Love is attraction. Love is positive energy that radiates throu the hearts of people. Love drives an effort for achieving unity and harmony. About achieving equality in goodness. Love is a hope of beauty and eternity...Love is unconditional trust and care. Love is what drives the life here on Earth and also in afterlife. Love is libido. Love is eternal and never dies.

We can inly exist because of the love of Allah SWT. We depend on his love.

<Claps>

Who knew that them poetry recitals can come in handy some time :sl:, but since you being all sensitive Sally and stuff, let me see.

I don’t disagree with your description, not sure how this ties in with..umm…anything but I don’t disagree even though I wasn’t as detailed as you apparently wanted me to be.

 

Now assuming these are all the characteristics of love, would you say that all objects of love necessarily exert all those feelings/characterics? DO you Love your Mom, your Wife, you borther, friends and Allah the same way? Is it possible for you to think that your wife is beautiful even though she maybe 300 pounds and 5 feet?

It all ties in with the point I was trying to bring up, and probably why my description sucked....lack of a set objective schema, and eye of the beholder thinh.....that’s if you are not arguing for argument’s sake.

 

Now you claim that you love Allah, and Allah loves us, let’s reflect on that shall we?

So Allah loves us you said and also “Love is a feeling in which others become as important as youâ€, Are we as important to Allah as he himself? DOes God pray to each and every one of us? DO you see why this soundds absurd?

I believe Quran says:

“Allah loves us more than a mother loves her childâ€

Correct me If not true.

Now, What mother willingly and with a choice to do otherwise, exposes her child to pain and suffering , subordination and threaten him/her with hellfire for eternity? Does that fit in your schema of love?

Lets see if you can find it in your own description somewhere.

Now before you say useless stuff like.. but mother spanks her child so it can learn etc…consider this..does mother have any other option? NO

Does Allah have options ? YES

If a mother tells her Child , don’t eat paint, and the child doesn’t stop, the mother can’t reprogram his intellect or make paint harmless to human health….Allah does…for him every variable is controllable.

 

Now Let me ask you this…Do you Love Allah? Love that’s not influenced by fear?

If there was no hell or heaven, would you do what’s told no strings attached? DO you Love Allah knowing he created this test where people suffer and die and some will be tortured eternally? IS it love when famine claims lives? Is it love when a poor infant gets eaten alive by voltures while trying to crawl to a safety camp in that famine?

Is it love when natural disasters claim lives of people or when kids are borned with deformities? I can go on forever, but If a paragraph don’t make sense to ya, and entire book won’t.

 

So your lecture about using feelings and love and all that jazz to find God only sound good in poetry, not in practical life.

 

Peace

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Now assuming these are all the characteristics of love, would you say that all objects of love necessarily exert all those feelings/characterics? DO you Love your Mom, your Wife, you borther, friends and Allah the same way? Is it possible for you to think that your wife is beautiful even though she maybe 300 pounds and 5 feet?

Ok my friend. I was trying to get your personal opinion on LOVE the way I did. That was my objection. And I am sorry if I was rude. I applogize if I offended you.

But you know, since we are analyzing psychology of a person and you agreed to be volunteer I wanted to get personal opinions. Not objective definitions. I know that part already. Most of us are experts in objective

generalizations but we suck when it comes to reveal our own feelings or reasonings.

 

 

Ok, back to the topic of Love. You tried to compare the love of a human towards mothers or any other close humans and the love toward Allah. You said it is absurd to think you love them the same way. I agree. We don't, each of them get diffrent degree of love. I don't remember claiming it is the same. It can't be.

 

I love Allah SWT the most then my children, my wife, my parents, my sisters and so on.

Love, most of the time requires two parties in its experience. The level of harmony between those two determines the degree of love. Since the highest love possible is in Allah SWT we love him the most. Everything else is secondary and in decreasing order.

 

Now you claim that you love Allah, and Allah loves us, let’s reflect on that shall we?

So Allah loves us you said and also “Love is a feeling in which others become as important as youâ€, Are we as important to Allah as he himself? DOes God pray to each and every one of us? DO you see why this soundds absurd?

I described my subjective understanding of love. That is me how I feel when I love. I don't see the need to generalize my opinion to anybody else, and especially to the Creator. Hashaa.

I didn't claim I know how Allah would feel and love his creations. We as humans wouldn't know that.

It sounds absurd if you apply my subjective feelings to anybody else. Why would you do that on first place. Doing that is absurd, I agree.

 

I believe Quran says:

“Allah loves us more than a mother loves her childâ€

Correct me If not true.

Now, What mother willingly and with a choice to do otherwise, exposes her child to pain and suffering , subordination and threaten him/her with hellfire for eternity? Does that fit in your schema of love?

 

My illogical friend I can give many examples of monsterous moms who willingly kill their babies. We can simply start with abortions. There are hundreds of others who kill their babies after they are born. They trow them from the fifth floor. In some cultures they kill their daughters at any age. That is done by mothers and fathers. What does that tell you?

Not all mothers and fathers are good. Not all of them love their kids. And you say they don't have options? People most of the time have options.

 

If a mother tells her Child , don’t eat paint, and the child doesn’t stop, the mother can’t reprogram his intellect or make paint harmless to human health….Allah does…for him every variable is controllable.

 

Yes Allah can do whatever he wills. But you have to understand Allah didn't intend to create robots, but unique creatures who posses intellect and emotions and act based on free will. This is bigger success.

 

Now Let me ask you this…Do you Love Allah? Love that’s not influenced by fear?

 

I do love AllahSWT and I also fear him. Because I realize his love towards us is way greater than ours. We are limited in understanding and experiencing the right feelings. I fear if I act in a way which would be incompatible with the essence of the love of Allah SWT. That by itself would put me away from him. I am afraid to go astray and loose the mening of my life. I am affraid of that. I fear to disobey and prove myself unworthy in the face of Allah SWT.

I don't see anything wrong with that.

 

If there was no hell or heaven, would you do what’s told no strings attached?

If there wasn't heaven and hell I wouldn't have existed on first place. What is the point of discuss impossible things. No use.

 

DO you Love Allah knowing he created this test where people suffer and die and some will be tortured eternally? IS it love when famine claims lives? Is it love when a poor infant gets eaten alive by voltures while trying to crawl to a safety camp in that famine?

Whatever good we experience is from Allah. Whatever bad happens to us is because of humans.

The reason we are here on this Earth is not to live long. We are here to complete our maturation. The death is the graduation. Then we are placed to wherever we aimed to get.

The rules of the game were constantly reminded to us with the messengers of Allah.

If we knew about the message and we chose not to follow it. It was our choice. You can't blame Allah for the path you have chosen. He gave you free will and intelligence. All the blessings.

If you have chosen to only enjoy the mortal life on Earth as your primary goal an then you work hard for that you may probably achive that with the permission of Allah. But if you choose the eternal life and live according to the rules of Allah SWT then you would get that, too. Allah gives you whatever you want.

You don't have the option to change your request on your last breath. That doesn't work.

Believing and doing good deedes are the prerequisites to Heaven.

 

Disasters are not fun. I agree. But anyway, our life on Earth was not supposed to become Paradise. Nobody promised us that. Why are you disappointed?

 

PEACE

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Salamz

will try to put my Million dollar worth post soon, but right now, I would like to remind you to keep away from personal attacks and name calling, because experience says that from there things start turning ugly.

Well Aunty, it was not really all his fault :sl:..ok fine guilty as charged.... :sl: ...But I agree getting nowhere is a good way to get somewhere real fast. So Turk..here ya go :j:

 

(p.s looking forward to another one of your million dollar posts :no: )

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Ok my friend. I was trying to get your personal opinion on LOVE the way I did. That was my objection. And I am sorry if I was rude. I applogize if I offended you.

But you know, since we are analyzing psychology of a person and you agreed to be volunteer I wanted to get personal opinions. Not objective definitions. I know that part already. Most of us are experts in objective generalizations but we suck when it comes to reveal our own feelings or reasonings.

No harm done homie, :no: I don’t easily get offended anyways and hope you don’t also because like I always say, sometimes you have to be impolite for sake of honesty.So you generalized, I felt it was unnecessary and called you on it in a reciprocal/sarcastic tone.... no harm done as far as I am concerned, no need to apologize..though thx anyways.

 

Ok, back to the topic of Love. You tried to compare the love of a human towards mothers or any other close humans and the love toward Allah. You said it is absurd to think you love them the same way. I agree. We don't, each of them get different degree of love. I don't remember claiming it is the same. It can't be.

Right… that’s why my definition was broad since there is no set objective schema of love…and we can probably write a book about “what’s Loveâ€.

I love Allah SWT the most then my children, my wife, my parents, my sisters and so on.

Love, most of the time requires two parties in its experience. The level of harmony between those two determines the degree of love. Since the highest love possible is in Allah SWT we love him the most. Everything else is secondary and in decreasing order.

AI am not surprised that Allah takes priority, after all Abrahim (as) was willing to kill his own son for sake of God.

My objection was again that love has different meaning depending on the object of love.

With regard to Love towards Allah, I am doubting if such can exist in a rational sense since there are too many other motivational factors that can be confused as love.

Example: faith, fear, loyalty, inferiority, allegiance, debt, necessity etc.

My illogical friend I can give many examples of monsterous moms who willingly kill their babies. We can simply start with abortions. There are hundreds of others who kill their babies after they are born. They trow them from the fifth floor. In some cultures they kill their daughters at any age. That is done by mothers and fathers. What does that tell you?

Not all mothers and fathers are good. Not all of them love their kids. And you say they don't have options? People most of the time have options.

We always have control over choices we make, what we don’t have control over are constraints. Allah supposedly has control over all .

This maybe a bit off topic but Say a women gets raped by an HIV positive rapist and have no means to support her child/or to stop the disease from passing to the newborn……though she has an option not to abort the child, there are particular moral constraints that she can’t escape.

Fact remains that there are mothers who are sane yet, brutally cruel to her offspring, but then than there are also mothers that sell their body and soul to nourish foster and protect her off-spring to the best their abilities.

 

When God love is compared to a mother’s love, to me it’s obvious that we are not talking about the momz that flush their babies down toilets or throw them in dumpsters…as that doesn’t really exemplify love.

God’s love must beat every mother’s love since every mother is “a motherâ€

It would really be playing with words if we say…Judy flushed her baby down the toilet, Judy is a mother..God’s love exceeds a mother’s love..God doesn’t flush babies thus this prove God’s love stronger. Hope u get what I mean.

Yes Allah can do whatever he wills. But you have to understand Allah didn't intend to create robots, but unique creatures who posses intellect and emotions and act based on free will. This is bigger success.

In general…..Knowing that God is omnipotent and Omniscient… it’s rationally impossible for God to Not get what he wants. We are a result of exactly what a perfect, omnipotent/omniscient entity desired. Again with regard to freewill, like I said before, a will that’s constrained by consequences is not really free.

Example…All humans naturally avoid being tortured to death and like being filthy rich.

Now If I tell a human ( John) â€Hey you are free to chose whatever car you pick, but choose blue you get million dollars, but chose Red and you will be trapped in the car till burnt to deathâ€

Technically speaking, John has a choice but realistically speaking he doesn’t.

I do love Allah SWT and I also fear him

Well..Like I said above, there are other motivational factors that can so easily be compounded into that love..like necessity, fear salvation. An important characteric of love that I would add to your description is the fact that “Love is unconditionalâ€. If I don’t call my mom, or yell at her or even curse at her, despite the fact that she doesn’t fear me or need me, I am sure she will still love me. God’s love is conditional and comes with strings attached so as far as I see, to call it love would be a delusion that stems from fear and self interest ( heaven).

If there wasn't heaven and hell I wouldn't have existed on first place. What is the point of discuss impossible things. No use.

I am just asking you to think outside the box for a sec to illustrate my point…the underlying question would be“ Should right/ wrong be evaluated on merits of reward/retribution or by the virtue of the deed itselfâ€...something along those lines. :sl:

Disasters are not fun. I agree. But anyway, our life on Earth was not supposed to become Paradise. Nobody promised us that. Why are you disappointed?

Not disappointed so much but baffled at the predicament.."How can I genuinely love something (God) that is the ultimate cause of all these mishaps? :sl:

 

Peace

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The renegade by Albert Camus describes a missionary who was filled with love and who wanted to change the world, it ends with the same guy filled with hate (he was subjected to some beating and humiliation) and becoming the slave of his new master the fetish. His enslavement became voluntary as he really admired his new master; he approved his maleficent ways and realized that the only kingdom is the kingdom of hatred. To fulfill this kingdom this guy decided to kill the new missionary who was sent to the tribe, by doing so he thought that his new masters will face and conquer all of Europe, making of others what was made of him, annihilating love and spreading their…actually his version of truth.

 

In another story Camus ingeniously, it was really comical, insinuate how he’s the first teacher, I also remember him saying in a third one: “A HOUSEFLY had been circling for the last few minutes in the bus, though the windows were closed… some (persons) had folded their legs on the seat and swayed more than the others in the car’s motion.â€

 

Sartre’s nausea describes a humanitarian, who likes fondling little boys, his other novel the wall portrays a self absorbed man who is only thinking about himself when faced by death, a remotely minor example:

"Pablo, I wonder ... I wonder if it's really true that everything ends."

I took my hand away and said, "Look between your feet, you pig."

There was a big puddle between his feet and drops felling from his pants-leg.

"What is it," he asked, frightened.

"You're pissing in your pants," I told him.

"It isn't true," he said furiously. "

In la question juive , there is a passage which somehow describes the alike of this self absorbed man : “he had two systems of interpretation to explain his failure, like an insane man who in his delirium pretends to be the King of Hungary but when suddenly put to the test admits that he is a shoemaker. His thinking moves on two planes without the least difficulty….They even like to play with speech because by putting forth ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutor; they are enchanted with their unfairness because for them it is not a question of persuading by good argument but of intimidating or disorienting.â€

 

Finally, it’s all a matter of taking poses while evading from the real problem, these poses are not the cause but the result, their role is primarily a buffer zone which helps shading the issue.

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Again with regard to freewill, like I said before, a will that’s constrained by consequences is not really free.

I don't know what you expected form the term free will, but that is what it is. You have freedom to choose from several options. We as limited creatures at least have more options than the rest of living beings. Your expectations not being fulfilled can't be an argument against omnipotent God. If we had unlimited options it would put us into the position of little Gods. Since we are not, then we need to be relistic and know our places.

 

Example… All humans naturally avoid being tortured to death and like being filthy rich.

Now If I tell a human ( John) â€Hey you are free to chose whatever car you pick, but choose blue you get million dollars, but chose Red and you will be trapped in the car till burnt to deathâ€

Technically speaking, John has a choice but realistically speaking he doesn’t.

I don't understand what you mean. Explain more, please. It is clear that this person would choose less painfull option. That is why Muslims are asked to do. Not to choose temporary enjoyment in expense of eternal fire. If I am told about the rules of the game, why that should be unfair?

 

Well..Like I said above, there are other motivational factors that can so easily be compounded into that love...like necessity, fear salvation. An important characteric of love that I would add to your description is the fact that “Love is unconditionalâ€. If I don’t call my mom, or yell at her or even curse at her, despite the fact that she doesn’t fear me or need me, I am sure she will still love me.

 

She might love you but in fact if you keep pushing her away and don't show any signs of love to her you will probably end up living apart and separate lifes. Her love won't have any effect on you. It is not uniting you two. No pratical consequences of it anymore.

 

The same with your relation to God. If you don't love him there is not many options to stay apart for God in afterlife. Since Heaven is for loving people that means Heaven is incompatable with hate, then the only place left for you is Hell. Think about people being placed around Allah SWT accoring to their level of love toward him. Of course those with unconditional love toward him will be closest, then the rest of people will be placed behind them in decreasing order of their love. Pretty similar to electrons orbiting around the nucleus of atoms. The last outer layers would be the most unstable ones with the least of love. With such a weak complelling force they would simply brake loose from their orbits.

Going away from Allah as AllahSWT tells us is a painful process, it is burning in eternal fire. It is a process of annihilation. Nuclear reactions produce anormous enery. Something like that.

If that happens to you that doesn't mean Allah doesn't love you. It means you prevented yourself from loving him. Beacuse his love is already with you when you are born to this world. All the good thing on this life are blessings from him. Blessings given to you with love. No mother or father's love can be a match for Allah's love. Even having a mother or father to care of you is a blessing from him. Even the single breath you take is a blessing of Allah's love. He chose you from to be born from the million possibilities of combination of ovum and sperm. Yet you were given the blessing to come to this life. What other proofs for his love do you want?

 

He still loves you more than angels to let you to have a freedom of choice and then he is respecting your choice. Because everything you do is real and has meaning. That is why He tells you about the consequences. But if despite of all those warnings you chose to go away from him. He simply has to remain true to his promises. Because the justice must be true justice. Good needs to attract good and keep the bad far away. Sad but not much to do.

 

God’s love is conditional and comes with strings attached so as far as I see, to call it love would be a delusion that stems from fear and self interest ( heaven).

The condition of his love is simple. He says that he loves us and says if we love him, too we will have happy afterlife. Would it make sense if he says "I love you and no matter what I will let you have happy afterlife."

Then we wouldn't need to be placed on Earth. There wouldn't be need for all of this testing. Our father Adam and our mother Eve simply wouldn't we sent to Earth. They would have enjoyed their life in Heaven. May be we their offsprings wouldn't have existed at all. But that is not the case.

 

We all like unconditional love and we like to respond to that likewise. We all believe in justice and would do our part to achive a just treatment not only for us but for everybody. We all like beautiful things and would like to keep them away from ugly things. We all like good thigs in life and would like to keep them forever.

Those our natural reactions. If any of us do the opposite we would agree he is unnatural, abnormal. Each of us would try to stay away from that person. You wouldn't feel safe around those people, and you wouldn't want you or your kids to be friends with them. You will keep away from your circle of friends.

 

Now, if one of these bad people starts complaining about that treatment and blaming you as bad for not granting him unconditional love and unconditional friendship despite the fact he still insists he won't respond to you in friendly manner are you going to give him your hand? Many of us won't. But that is not what Allah SWT does. He gives us countless chances to correct ourselves. It is constant hope that he has in us till we die, so one day we may respond to his love and secure our good place around him forever.

 

“ Should right/ wrong be evaluated on merits of reward/retribution or by the virtue of the deed itselfâ€

No, but they are inseparably connected. Direcly or indirectly.

 

"How can I genuinely love something (God) that is the ultimate cause of all these mishaps? :sl:

I can reply to that with another question: "Can I love Almighty God who has always loved me even before I knew about it?" Wihtout hesitation. Even for the every single breath and for the every single beat of my heart I can love him forever! His love is all embracing. But you can only feel it only if you set your heart free from the seal of pride and high self-esteem.

 

Brother, I feel you have a good heart. Try to set it free for the love of God, too. You will experience the best of loves! Believe me! :sl:

 

PEACE

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The renegade by Albert Camus describes a missionary who was filled with love and who wanted to change the world, it ends with the same guy filled with hate (he was subjected to some beating and humiliation) and becoming the slave of his new master the fetish. His enslavement became voluntary as he really admired his new master; he approved his maleficent ways and realized that the only kingdom is the kingdom of hatred. To fulfill this kingdom this guy.....

Ok no idea what the point you making man... :no: ( why am I not surprised :sl: )

I meean are you hinting at the possible existentialist mentality here or the ethnocenteric characteristics of theology? :sl:

Try to be more detailed man, as always I don't get your cryptic wisdom.

peace

 

 

 

I don't know what you expected form the term free will, but that is what it is. You have freedom to choose from several options. We as limited creatures at least have more options than the rest of living beings. Your expectations not being fulfilled can't be an argument against omnipotent God. If we had unlimited options it would put us into the position of little Gods. Since we are not, then we need to be relistic and know our places.

What I would consider as free will is :chosing a color for your car".

blue/black/white no particular consequences.

What I do not consider free will is for example a " A muslim, choosing to pray or not"

That's because theer are consequences involved...we know no one sane, voluntarily will chose hell over heaven, thus the constarints.

However my main point in context of last post was that "we are as God pleses"..freewill doesn't change anythin since our freewill is confined within God's will....so all the choices we are capable of making are within the God given domain...

 

I don't understand what you mean. Explain more, please. It is clear that this person would choose less painfull option. That is why Muslims are asked to do. Not to choose temporary enjoyment in expense of eternal fire. If I am told about the rules of the game, why that should be unfair?

We are headed towards a freewill vs determinism, compatibilist vs incompatibilist debate.

In hope to keep it simple..assume blow are true facts.

datum1-humans will chose heaven over hell.

datum2-Islam is the only way to heaven.

Based on the above, we deduce that a human must comply with Islam since their choice is constrained by the outcome to acquire heaven. My point was that though it appears we have options/freewill, we really don't since we are human and like to go to heaven.

It's like If you are on 40th floor with 2 ways out only, one way is door, the other is window, but you know that gravity exists(constraint) and u will most probably die if u go out the window...Now If I were to ask you do have a choice to leave by any other way but the door? technically yes…..the window...but realistically/practically no…. since u value your life. So in reality, freewill is just an illusion there.

 

She might love you but in fact if you keep pushing her away and don't show any signs of love to her you will probably end up living apart and separate lifes. Her love won't have any effect on you. It is not uniting you two. No pratical consequences of it anymore.

Well, through experience, I know that often, a mother’s love is one-sided. Though not All mothers are same, it’s not that difficult to find one that loves her child unconditionally, whether her child someone who hates her, or even a cold blooded killer, I doubt if a loving mother will ever wish to burn him/her for eternity.

Not sure how God’s love exceeds this…Even if god blessed us with great things and did us a favor, the fact remains that he expects us to do a laundry list of things and if we don’t, will torture us till eternity.

 

Think about people being placed around Allah SWT according to their level of love toward him. Of course those with unconditional love toward him will be closest, then the rest of people will be placed behind them in decreasing order of their love.

To me love is not a switch you can flip on and off and chose its intensity depending on self benefit or independent of any appreciation. How can I honestly claim to love some one whose actions I can’t justify or approve? It would be like some one holding a gun to my temple insisting “love or die..chose wiselyâ€

How can real love be invoked by an intimidating force that offers no explanation ..or one that’s within our capabilities of understanding?

 

If that happens to you that doesn't mean Allah doesn't love you. It means you prevented yourself from loving him. Because his love is already with you when you are born to this world. All the good thing on this life are blessings from him. Blessings given to you with love. No mother or father's love can be a match for Allah's love. Even having a mother or father to care of you is a blessing from him. Even the single breath you take is a blessing of Allah's love. He chose you from to be born from the million possibilities of combination of ovum and sperm. Yet you were given the blessing to come to this life. What other proofs for his love do you want?

Well, firstly, it servers me no purpose to wage war with teh strongest possible entity in the universe, and do that on fallicious ground.

Secondly, I can't prevent myself from loving Allah if wants me to, becaus eotherwise it would void his omnipotence.

Secondly, like I stated before love is an emotion that is invoke by the object of love whether there are biological or behavioral/social ties, the feeling can’t just be invoked otherwise.Calling life a blessing is being short sighted, because people who are borned blind, with a fatal disease or deformities are reminded everyday how unfair and cruel this life is. We can read the auto biography of Bill gates perhaps and see how life is full and rich or pick up on eof the slave narratives like "Fredrick Douglass" and look at the other side of picture. Looking at the big picture..If God loves us so much then why is there so much

Pain and suffering? Even if this is a test it doesn't have to be so cruelly difficult for some and easy for others...that's not justice.

Furthermore, I wouldn’t want my loved ones to be miserable for a s econd… we know it’s within God’s reach to practically make this world a perfectly utopian dream, no two humans are alike, If Adam screwed up and ate the forbidden fruit it's not just grounds to subject the entire mankind to a painful test ..especially a test for which the result is known. There are too many inconsistencies that I find no explanation for.

Would it make sense if he says "I love you and no matter what I will let you have happy afterlife."

Then we wouldn't need to be placed on Earth. There wouldn't be need for all of this testing. Our father Adam and our mother Eve simply wouldn't we sent to Earth. They would have enjoyed their life in Heaven. May be we their offsprings wouldn't have existed at all. But that is not the case.

But that is precisely what I am saying…if God loved us so much, the world won’t be at status quo.

"Can I love Almighty God who has always loved me even before I knew about it?" Wihtout hesitation. Even for the every single breath and for the every single beat of my heart I can love him forever! His love is all embracing. But you can only feel it only if you set your heart free from the seal of pride and high self-esteem.

It’s not so much pride rather lack of valid rationale that’s keeping me.

Say I am a good basket ball player who genuinely thinks I am the best…you can call that pride. But If there truly were a better basket ball player who can actually beat me, or if we can compare personal records and see his average is higher, then I must and will admit that he is better.

There are two different points I am making now.

1-Based on evidence I see, I don’t think God loves us…

2-Based on the feelings that are invoked inside me with respect to God, I genuinely feel no love.

Now one and two can be mutually exclusive, I can love some one who actually hates me and visa-versa, but in my personal opinion, I feel both are true.

Brother, I feel you have a good heart. Try to set it free for the love of God, too. You will experience the best of loves! Believe me! :j:

Thanks, but I know I have a good heart since I watch my cholesterol and all.

 

Peace

Edited by llogical

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What I would consider as free will is :chosing a color for your car".

blue/black/white no particular consequences.

What I do not consider free will is for example a " A muslim, choosing to pray or not"

That's because theer are consequences involved...we know no one sane, voluntarily will chose hell over heaven, thus the constarints.

However my main point in context of last post was that "we are as God pleses"..freewill doesn't change anythin since our freewill is confined within God's will....so all the choices we are capable of making are within the God given domain...

We are headed towards a freewill vs determinism, compatibilist vs incompatibilist debate.

In hope to keep it simple..assume blow are true facts.

.

.

.

datum1-humans will chose heaven over hell.

datum2-Islam is the only way to heaven.

Based on the above, we deduce that a human must comply with Islam since their choice is constrained by the outcome to acquire heaven. My point was that though it appears we have options/freewill, we really don't since we are human and like to go to heaven.

It's like If you are on 40th floor with 2 ways out only, one way is door, the other is window, but you know that gravity exists(constraint) and u will most probably die if u go out the window...Now If I were to ask you do have a choice to leave by any other way but the door? technically yes…..the window...but realistically/practically no…. since u value your life. So in reality, freewill is just an illusion there.

Freedom And Responsibility

it may nevertheless be worthwhile after these descriptions and arguments to return to the freedom of the for-itself and to try to understand what the fact of this freedom represents for human destiny. The essential consequence of our earlier remarks is that man being condemned to be free carries the weight of the whole world on his shoulders; he is responsible for the world and for himself as a way of being. We are taking the word "responsibility" in its ordinary sense as "consciousness (of) being the incontestable author of an event or of an object." In this sense the responsibility of the for-itself is overwhelming since he* is the one by whom it happens that there is a world; since he is also the one who makes himself be, then whatever may be the situation in which he finds himself, the for-itself must wholly assume this situation with its peculiar coefficient of adversity, even though it be insupportable. He must assume the situation with the proud consciousness of being the author of it, for the very worst disadvantages or the worst threats which can endanger my person have meaning only in and through my project; and it is on the ground of the engagement which I am that they appear. It is therefore senseless to think of complaining since nothing foreign has decided what we feel, what we live, or what we are.

 

Furthermore this absolute responsibility is not resignation; it is simply the logical requirement of the consequences of our freedom. What happens to me happens through me, and I can neither affect myself with it nor revolt against it nor resign myself to it. Moreover everything which happens to me is mine. By this we must understand first of all that I am always equal to what happens to me qua man, for what happens to a man through other men and through himself can be only human. The most terrible situations of war, the worst tortures do not create a non-human state of things; there is no non-human situation. It is only through fear, flight, and recourse to magical types of conduct that I shall decide on the non-human, but this decision is human, and I shall carry the entire responsibility for it. But in addition the situation is mine because it is the image of my free choice of myself, and everything which it presents to me is mine in that this represents me and symbolizes me. Is it not I who decide the coefficient of adversity in things and even their unpredictability by deciding myself?

 

Thus there are no accidents in a life; a community event which suddenly bursts forth and involves me in it does not come from the outside. If I am mobilized in a war, this war is my war; it is in my image and I deserve it. I deserve it first because I could always get out of it by suicide or by desertion; these ultimate possibles are those which must always be present for us when there is a question of envisaging a situation. For lack of getting out of it, I have chosen it. This can be due to inertia, to cowardice in the face of public opinion, or because I prefer certain other values to the value of the refusal to join in the war (the good opinion of my relatives, the honor of my family, etc.). Anyway you look at it, it is a matter of a choice. This choice will be repeated later on again and again without a break until the end of the war. Therefore we must agree with the statement by J. Romains, "In war there are no innocent victims."* If therefore I have preferred war to death or to dishonor, everything takes place as if I bore the entire responsibility for this war. Of course others have declared it, and one might be tempted perhaps to consider me as a simple accomplice. But this notion of complicity has only a juridical sense, and it does not hold here. For it depended on me that for me and by ine this war should not exist, and I have decided that it does exist. There was no compulsion here, for the compulsion could have got no hold on a freedom. I did not have any excuse; for as we have said repeatedly in this book, the peculiar character of human-reality is that it is without excuse. Therefore it remains for me only to lay claim to this war.

 

But in addition the war is mine because by the sole fact that it arises in a situation which I cause to be and that I can discover it there only by engaging myself for or against it, I can no longer distinguish at present the choice which I make of myself from the choice which I make of the war. To live this war is to choose myself through it and to choose it through my choice of myself. There can be no question of considering it as "four years of vacation" or as a "reprieve," as a "recess," the essential part of my responsibilities being elsewhere in my married, family, or professional life. In this war which I have chosen I choose myself from day to day, and I make it mine by making myself. If it is going to be four empty years, then it is I who bear the responsibility for this.

 

Finally, as we pointed out earlier, each person is an absolute choice of self from the standpoint of a world of knowledges and of techniques which this choice both assumes and illumines; each person is an absolute upsurge at an absolute, date and is perfectly unthinkable at another date. It is therefore a waste of time to ask what I should have been if this war had not broken out, for I have chosen myself as one of the possible meanings of the epoch which imperceptibly led to war. I am not distinct from this same epoch; I could not be transported to another epoch without contradiction. Thus I am this war which restricts and limits and makes comprehensible the period which preceded it. In this sense we may define more precisely the responsibility of the for-itself if to the earlier quoted statement, "There are no innocent victims," we add the words, "We have the war we deserve." Thus, totally free, undistinguishable from the period for which I have chosen to be the meaning, as profoundly responsible for the war as if I had myself declared it, unable to live without integrating it in my situation, engaging myself in it wholly and stamping it with my seal, I must be without remorse or regrets as I am without excuse; for from the instant of my upsurge into being, I carry the weight of the world by myself alone without anything or any person being able to lighten it.

 

Yet this responsibility is of a very particular type. Someone will say, "I did not ask to be born." This is a naive way of throwing greater emphasis on our facticity. I am responsible for everything, in fact, except for my very responsibility, for I am not the foundation of my being. Therefore everything takes place as if I were compelled to be responsible. I am abandoned in the world, not in the sense that I might remain abandoned and passive in a hostile universe like a board floating on the water, but rather in the sense that I find myself suddenly alone and without help, engaged in a world for which I bear the whole responsibility without being able, whatever I do, to tear myself away from this responsibility for an instant. For I am responsible for my very desire of fleeing responsibilities. To make myself passive in the world, to refuse to act upon things and upon Others is still to choose myself, and suicide is one mode among others of being-in-the-world. Yet I find an absolute responsibility for the fact that my facticity is directly inapprehensible and even inconceivable, for this fact of my birth never appears as a brute fact but always across a projective reconstruction of my for-itself. I am ashamed of being born or I am astonished at it or I rejoice over it, or in attempting to get rid of my life I affirm that I live and I assume this life as bad. Thus in a certain sense I choose being born. This choice itself is integrally affected with facticity since I am not able not to choose, but this facticity in turn will appear only in so far as I surpass it toward my ends. Thus facticity is everywhere but inapprehensible; I never encounter anything except my responsibility. That is why I can not ask, "Why was I born?" or curse the day of my birth or declare that I did not ask to be born, for these various attitudes toward my birth--i.e., toward the fact that I realize a presence in the world--are absolutely nothing else but ways of assuming this birth in full responsibility and of making it mine. Here again I encounter only myself and my projects so that finally my abandonment--i.e., my facticity--consists simply in the fact that I am condemned to be wholly responsible for myself. I am the being which is in such a way that in its being its being is in question. And this "is" of my being is as present and inapprehensible.

 

Under these conditions since every event in the world can be revealed to me only as an opportunity (an opportunity made use of, lacked, neglected, etc.), or better yet since everything which happens to us can be considered as a chance (i.e., can appear to us only as a way of realizing this being which is in question in our being) and since others as transcendences-transcended are themselves only opportunities and chances, the responsibility of the for-itself extends to the entire world as a peopled-world. It is precisely thus that the for-itself apprehends itself in anguish; that is, as a being which is neither the foundation of its own being nor of the Other's being nor of the in-itselfs which form the world, but a being which is compelled to decide the meaning of being--within it and everywhere outside of it. The one who realizes in anguish his condition as being thrown into a responsibility which extends to his very abandonment has no longer either remorse or regret or excuse; he is no longer anything but a freedom which perfectly reveals itself and whose being resides in this very revelation. But as we pointed out at the beginning of this work, most of the time we flee anguish in bad faith.

Jean Paul Sartre

 

Man is stupid, you know, phenomenally stupid; or rather he is not at all stupid, but he is so ungrateful that you could not find another like him in all creation. I, for instance, would not be in the least surprised if all of a sudden, a propos of nothing, in the midst of general prosperity a gentleman with an ignoble, or rather with a reactionary and ironical, countenance were to arise and, putting his arms akimbo, say to us all: "I say, gentle-men, hadn't we better kick over the whole show and scatter rationalism to the winds, simply to send these logarithms to the devil, and to enable us to live once more at our own sweet foolish will!" That again would not matter, but what is annoying is that he would be sure to find followers–such is the nature of man. And all that for the most foolish reason, which, one would think, was hardly worth mentioning: that is, that man everywhere and at all times, whoever he may be, has preferred to act as he chose and not in the least as his reason and advantage dictated. And all that for the most foolish reason, which, one would think, was hardly worth mentioning: that is, that man everywhere and at all times, whoever he may be, has preferred to act as he chose and not in the least as his reason and advantage dictated. And one may choose what is contrary to one's own interests, and sometimes one positively ought (that is my idea). One's own free unfettered choice, one's own caprice, however wild it may be, one's own fancy Worked up at times to frenzy–is that very "most advantageous advantage" which we have overlooked, which comes under no classification and against which all systems and theories are continually being shattered to atoms. And how do these wiseacres know that man wants a normal, a virtuous choice? What has made them conceive that man must want a rationally advantageous choice?

Dostoevsky

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What I would consider as free will is :chosing a color for your car".

blue/black/white no particular consequences.

Making a choice always brings some consequences.

Even the color of your car does. The color you choose will express your personality. If you like to be noticed you will choose probaby red or who knows purple but probably not white or gray.

The color you choose will make difference if you live in hot place. My car is black colored and I know it makes difference in the summer. If you choose white you will be the first on line of the paint shop. You will also be the most frequent visiot of car wash, as well.

As you see no matter what you choose there is always strings attached. That is why we tend to rely on findings of science. Because everything interects with everything and we can predict what will happen afterwards.

This concept is really not dependanet of you likes or dislikes. It is as it is.

 

What I do not consider free will is for example a " A muslim, choosing to pray or not"

That's because theer are consequences involved...we know no one sane, voluntarily will chose hell over heaven, thus the constarints.

Thus when you choose not do something tha also brings consequences. Life is about experiencing algorithms. In each step we either do or don't choose certain things. And we know that each option would have taken us to a different path. That is what logic is telling us. Logic is based on the validity of algorithms.

If certain things don't follow the predicted consequences we become puzzled. That brings uncertainty and unsecurity in our life. Needless to say none of us like that. So we rely on the knowldge of consequnces. The term disappontment araises when you do things that don't lead to expected consequences. Nobody likes that. Our joy of life comes from experiencing the awards of our choices. We like it on this life we would certainly like it in the eternal life, too.

 

However my main point in context of last post was that "we are as God pleses"..freewill doesn't change anythin since our freewill is confined within God's will....so all the choices we are capable of making are within the God given domain...

If this is the reality your emotions about it really won't change anything. The only way to be in peace with that reality is to accept it as it is. Can digging in your head in the sand will change anything?

 

We are headed towards a freewill vs determinism, compatibilist vs incompatibilist debate.

In hope to keep it simple..assume blow are true facts.

datum1-humans will chose heaven over hell.

datum2-Islam is the only way to heaven.

Based on the above, we deduce that a human must comply with Islam since their choice is constrained by the outcome to acquire heaven. My point was that though it appears we have options/freewill, we really don't since we are human and like to go to heaven.

The reality is that no matter what people would still disobey God if the knew there was heaven for sure. It is an option which comes secondary to the fact we are entitled to two options. And people sometimes just out of curiousity would do bad things. Some will keep doing the some will regret and correct themselves.

There is no good or bad if there is no option to choose. But it is too late for us to reject this right. We already have it and have to learn how to utilize it so we don't suffer from our consequences.

 

It's like If you are on 40th floor with 2 ways out only, one way is door, the other is window, but you know that gravity exists (constraint) and u will most probably die if u go out the window...Now If I were to ask you do have a choice to leave by any other way but the door? technically yes…..the window...but realistically/practically no…. since u value your life. So in reality, freewill is just an illusion there.

It sounds irrational but there still would be people jumping form the window. Because they won't believe that they are on the 40th floor. Our case in this life is as follows. We are born in that room which you say is on the 40th floor but the only way to leave this room (our mortal life) is either the safe way using the door or taking the risk of jumping from the window. And imagine if there are people divided on that view. Half state the door is the safe way the others the window. When the first claims that we are on the 40th floor and we would be smashed if we choose the window the other half would simply accuse them of wild imagination. They will say this the only ground we have. There is no graond beyond this floor and going by the window would be and experience of flying, great fun.

That is the problem even though we are told by the messengers of God that this room is on the 40th floor the half of people probably won't take them seriously.

This all about religion. About a warning by God to guide those who are considerate and realistic.

 

Well, through experience, I know that often, a mother’s love is one-sided.

The same with the love of God. The love of God embraces the whole humanity and the universe. Ours is way to little to match his. So pretty much one sided love there, too. As the mothers love is not always able to save her kids from bad things. The same with God's. Because the goal of a reasonable mother is not to isolate and protect, but to teach her kids how to teach how to face challenges and live in happiness. I don't see any difference in God's love to his creations. He sent us his messengers in order to show us the right path and warned us wbout what happens if you go astray. He warns us as a mother would warn his confused and misguided son .

 

PEACE

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atheists cant see GOD thats why they cant think it however think against it . they are mushriks for now because truth is their its clear but they dont want to put their mind in it and study it however they study on its sayings and compromise it with their own thinking which is a built up negative system on themselves which this negative means abnormality

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Making a choice always brings some consequences.

Even the color of your car does. The color you choose will express your personality. If you like to be noticed you will choose probaby red or who knows purple but probably not white or gray.

The color you choose will make difference if you live in hot place. My car is black colored and I know it makes difference in the summer.

Ok fine, I may not be the most articulatest person :sl: ... let me refine my example then...let's say "Choosing a color" not choosing a color of something.

So example..."what's your favorote color?"

We can say every choice ties in with opportunity cost etc, but my point is that "under particular circusmstances" the constraints are such that there is only 1 rational/logical choice which takes away from the notion of freewill.

Telling you " eat cookie, or brocoli" is different from telling you to "Eat brocolia nd live or eat cookie and be shot in the head".

If this is the reality your emotions about it really won't change anything. The only way to be in peace with that reality is to accept it as it is. Can digging in your head in the sand will change anything?

Ok then we are back to the humungous metaphorical if?

"If it's the reality"...How do we know it's real if it can't be proven or disproven?

The reality is that no matter what people would still disobey God if the knew there was heaven for sure. It is an option which comes secondary to the fact we are entitled to two options. And people sometimes just out of curiousity would do bad things. Some will keep doing the some will regret and correct themselves.

There is no good or bad if there is no option to choose. But it is too late for us to reject this right. We already have it and have to learn how to utilize it so we don't suffer from our consequences.

So basically reality doesn't have to be fair, but it's up to us to accept it embrace it love it as is..sounds like a valid proposition except again...how do we know it's real?

what method of observation/protocol/methodology do we apply to convince ourselves what's truth from an unlimited list of contradicting truths?

Empirical evidence doesn't exist, rational evidence exists beyong our capabilities...if we just take everything as givens and nodd our heads in approval then how do we recognize truth from falsehood?

If i come up to you and say..listen..God is there on his throne right above.You can't see touch feel him, you can't imagine what he's like...but he is there because some one found out 2000 years ago and passed that info on...how is that different from some one saying that "There are 100 Gods who exists, some one told me that 4000 years ago and passed that info on?

It sounds irrational but there still would be people jumping form the window. Because they won't believe that they are on the 40th floor. Our case in this life is as follows. We are born in that room which you say is on the 40th floor but the only way to leave this room (our mortal life) is either the safe way using the door or taking the risk of jumping from the window. And imagine if there are people divided on that view. Half state the door is the safe way the others the window. When the first claims that we are on the 40th floor and we would be smashed if we choose the window the other half would simply accuse them of wild imagination. They will say this the only ground we have. There is no graond beyond this floor and going by the window would be and experience of flying, great fun.

Well u can easily re-arrange the metaphor to say what you want..Door can mean real world ... a sure way out where window jumping requires a leap of faith since u can't see clearly how hight u are...etc.

Point was to illustrate how particular constarints on one choice make that choice highly unprobable making freewill an illusion. Like again....saying you can have any color but if u don't chose blue I will shoot ya.

That is the problem even though we are told by the messengers of God that this room is on the 40th floor the half of people probably won't take them seriously.

yess that's what bothers me too... why not? If truth is self evident, If messengers are capable..if we are capable then why not? Kinda ties in with the other thread i created regarding "finding God"

science teaches us that facts are proven and theories can never be proven but only falsified.

Theology claims that God is a fact that can't be proven or falsified, so the burden of proof falls on theology.

And it must do so regardless of human incompetence , Stan, blindness veils etc.

The same with the love of God. The love of God embraces the whole humanity and the universe. Ours is way to little to match his. So pretty much one sided love there, too. As the mothers love is not always able to save her kids from bad things. The same with God's. Because the goal of a reasonable mother is not to isolate and protect, but to teach her kids how to teach how to face challenges and live in happiness. I don't see any difference in God's love to his creations. He sent us his messengers in order to show us the right path and warned us wbout what happens if you go astray. He warns us as a mother would warn his confused and misguided son .

I think we are getting repetative now, the point is to see if God's love exceeds ' a mothers"

We are not comparing God's love with a mother love to find siimilarities, rather to see how god's love exceeds a mother's love, given the condition sof the world. If you can conceive 1 less miserable child in the world, then that's like 1 unit more of a compassionate mother than God. Looking at the big picture again...God knew what Stan will do, he knew what Adam will do , he knows what humans will do, he knows we will go to hell, "He knew and he let it be"..that's not love..love is not subjecting the objectt of love to pain when there are other options available.

 

 

peace

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