Jump to content
Islamic Forum
usuf

Democracy

Recommended Posts

In democracy, views of one fool is equal to the views of one genious but views of two fools are supreme than views of one genious. :sl:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
PropellerAds

So do you think democracy is good or bad for Muslim nations based on this?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

lol Livius, don't jump to bad intentions.

First, I didn't understand the first post. But your post made me read it again and get the wisdom behind it.

Actually, I think this topic is a bit high level for you and other westerners, where your country's definition of democracy is in similarity with thugs and theives' ethics, apply only to their inner circle, monstrous and unjust to everyone outside. It used to be so, now it got worse. Now your democracy can function only within israeli guidelines. Your 'democracy' makes you unable to have a say in losing $16 billion every month (12 in Iraq and 4 Afghanistan), taken from your healthcare and education funds. You should focus more on liberating your country from foreign occupation. The day you manage to put a non-zionist in the white house, is the day you can claim to have a democracy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The day you manage to put a non-zionist in the white house, is the day you can claim to have a democracy.

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetthemiddleeastnow(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/ref/gallupisrael.html"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetthemiddleeastnow(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/ref/gallupisrael.html[/url]

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_pewforum(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/docs/?DocID=218"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_pewforum(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/docs/?DocID=218[/url]

 

The majority of Americans support israel, so if a non-Zionist ended up in the White House it would actually be a failure of democracy since it would mean that someone who disagrees with the majority of the country is in charge of one of its branches of government.

 

You still ignore the question I asked, Dot, which is do you think that democracy is a good or a bad thing for Muslim nations?

 

Actually, I think this topic is a bit high level for you and other westerners,

 

Really, Dot? You think us Westerners aren't intelligent enough to understand, but that someone from Egypt, which has never had a true democracy, can understand it?

 

Don't you think that maybe your comment was grossly condescending?

 

Brother dot, you are right.

 

######, you are being a bit sycophantic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetthemiddleeastnow(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/ref/gallupisrael.html"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetthemiddleeastnow(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/ref/gallupisrael.html[/url]

 

(you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_pewforum(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/docs/?DocID=218"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_pewforum(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/docs/?DocID=218[/url]

 

The majority of Americans support israel, so if a non-Zionist ended up in the White House it would actually be a failure of democracy since it would mean that someone who disagrees with the majority of the country is in charge of one of its branches of government.

 

You still ignore the question I asked, Dot, which is do you think that democracy is a good or a bad thing for Muslim nations?

Really, Dot? You think us Westerners aren't intelligent enough to understand, but that someone from Egypt, which has never had a true democracy, can understand it?

 

Don't you think that maybe your comment was grossly condescending?

######, you are being a bit sycophantic.

 

When has a true, by the book democracy existed anywhere in the US? Last I checked, it was a representative republic, which means your vote DOES count... IF the representative lets it count.

 

So far as Democracy for muslim nations, it should be implemented. There is the tradition of ijmaa (consensus) that needs to be maintained.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Livius,

You're right, Egypt didn't have a democracy in most of its history, mostly due to invasions and occupations by imperial 'democracies'. But at least we know that, while in your case you were taught to believe that democracy is wiping out entire nations then building your civilization on your victim's corpses and enslavement of kidnapped people. We're unable to have a democracy now because your country installs and protects those who can silence its people and protects your greedy imperial dreams.

 

Democracy in Islam is far more superior than anything you have ever experienced. You can learn a lot from it. Too bad its not administered properly anywhere today. Though I have my doubts if you're able to learn anything that noble. After all, your entire history, all 4 centuries of it, is filled with massacres, genocides, robbery, kidnapping and enslavement. Having the guts to discuss democracy in itself is real brave of you Livius, I'll give you that.

 

But not all Americans share your level of knowledge or your lust for zionism. Actually, there are millions of Americans out there who know that there is a tyrant in the white house, and that democracy is long dead in the US, with human rights at its lowest, and that something must be done to free your country from zionist occupation. Its just that this forum is so unfortunate to have met, for the most part, the zionists and pro-genocide's among Americans.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
######, you are being a bit sycophantic.

 

I did not and do not attempt to win favor by agreeing with brother dot. The fact is the US democracy is being controlled and manipulated by Zionists who control the US media, the US economy, the US politic, the US regime, the US presidents etc for the brutal Zionist cause! The Zionists and their Zionist media have given false or misleading information to American people to trick them into supporting Zionist terrorism since the day they are born. And the false or misleading information cause bigoted Americans to think that Muslims are terrorists and they abuse Muslims in USA and other countries such as Iraq and Afghanistan. I really believe that there are good Americans who respect the basic human rights of Muslims in USA and other countries and I love these good Americans.

 

The fact is the US democracy is being hijacked the by Zionists who are the minority in USA! How can a small group of Zionists control the majority in USA? Is this what you call democracy? I hope Americans will liberate themselves from the Zionist domination and elect genuine American leaders who will serve Americans not Zionists!.

 

Any patriotic Americans, who are brave enough to question the wrongdoings of the US regime, would be called the traitors by the Zionists and their media. And Zionist brainwashed zombies would be called 'the patriots' for supporting the wrongdoings of the US regime blindly! We know that Zionists are exerting Fascist Control over USA and now Zionists are pitting the West against Islam and Muslims so now Iraq, Afghanistan etc are being invaded, occupied, and terrorized by Zionist proxies!

 

"I want to tell you something very clear, don't worry about American pressure on israel, we, the Jewish people control America, and the Americans know it." Ariel Sharon to Shimon Peres, October 3rd, 2001, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmmm really a good debate has started here. Thanks all for sharing your views.

 

Islam believes on democracy but not in that model of democracy as portrayed by westerners. Islam believes in supremacy of Almighty God. While in western democracy, parliament is the supreme authority. In fact we Muslims are pioneer to introduce a true democratic ruling system where people has right to elect their caliph. In Islamic democracy, a caliph is supposed to govern a state under the instructions of Almighty God and his prophet. Peoples’ wishes have the secondary status to consider by an Islamic caliph. Unfortunately we don’t have any true Islamic state in today’s world. Only muslim states exist and they are practicing non-islamic way of ruling like western democracy, kingdom etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So do you think democracy is good or bad for Muslim nations based on this?

I don't really understand your question. Democracy is not a religion, or is it in your country?

 

Wassalam,

Y

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
After all, your entire history, all 4 centuries of it, is filled with massacres, genocides, robbery, kidnapping and enslavement. Having the guts to discuss democracy in itself is real brave of you Livius, I'll give you that.

 

The difference between me and many people who post here is that I do not deny the past. Yes, the US has done many abhorrent things. I must correct you, though, since this nation has been around less than 250 years, not the 400 you mentioned.

 

If you want to talk about a nation that lasted much longer than 400 years and was involved in massacres, genocides, robbery, kidnapping and enslavement let us talk about the Kalifate which conquered neighbor after neighbor after neighbor and was involved in all the hideous things you mentioned including slavery and massacres and kidnapping.

 

You say democracy in Islam is superior than anything I have experienced but that it is not in existence today. When has it ever been in existence? I don't remember reading anything about all the people voting for a Kalif. And how is having a monarch, which a kalif is, a democracy?

 

But not all Americans share your level of knowledge or your lust for zionism.

 

I have no lust for zionism, as I have explained and been ignored about before. I simply don't believe in some conspiracy theory that the world is being run by a small group of devious Jews.

 

When has a true, by the book democracy existed anywhere in the US? Last I checked, it was a representative republic, which means your vote DOES count... IF the representative lets it count.

 

So far as Democracy for muslim nations, it should be implemented. There is the tradition of ijmaa (consensus) that needs to be maintained.

 

If you want to get technical then yes, the USA is a republic and not a "pure" democracy, a pure democracy being one in which the people voted on every law. It is still a democracy, though, by definition, because the people choose those that make the laws. Most states allow the people to suggest and pass laws by themselves and bypass their state congresses, which is a form of pure democracy. But then we digress...

 

I see that you are for a democracy in a Muslim nation, but would the non-Muslims be allowed to vote? Would it be a true democracy either?

 

"I want to tell you something very clear, don't worry about American pressure on israel, we, the Jewish people control America, and the Americans know it." Ariel Sharon to Shimon Peres, October 3rd, 2001, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio.

 

The quote is false ######. It was never said, at least not on any radio. It was made up by some reporter for the IAP. If you want to debate about it then start another thread, but if you are going to spout your conspiracy theories then at least use facts and not made up quotes.

 

In fact we Muslims are pioneer to introduce a true democratic ruling system where people has right to elect their caliph.

 

Again, that would a true democracy in which only Muslims voted, I assume? Or would Jews and Hindus and atheists be allowed to help select the kalif?

 

I don't really understand your question. Democracy is not a religion, or is it in your country?

 

I love it when you pretend to be obtuse. At least I assume you are pretending. Noone else seemed confused by the question.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think most of the complaining about democracies is more related to having a different agenda than the US, rather than criticism of just how perfect a form of consensual government democracy is. Of course there is no shortage of criticism of how things should function in our democracy. Lots and lots of bickering and tweaking, but Churhill's quote, “It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been triedâ€, has stood the test of time pretty well.

 

The percentage of democratic countries around the world has continued to rise and for the most part have been successful. Of course we can argue about just how perfect some non-modern form of government was during it's golden years, or fantasize about some hybrid reincarnation in the future, but we live in the present. Rational minds, focused on solving the problems of the day, are what allow progress to occur. No one will deny you the right to fill your head with conspiracy theories, no matter how irrational, but they will most likely provide the same degree of positive change that they have in the past.

 

Instead of whining like little girls about how non-democratic governments are supported by Western governments (while letting the other part of your mouth denounce democracies), consider doing what other countries have done in embracing democracy. Cowboy up like the Japanese, Koreans and others have done, find a way for your culture to make democracy work for you.

 

Modern consensual government is necessary but not sufficient to allow for a society to be competitive in today's world. Combined with the rule of law and the enforcement of property rights, democracy will open the doors to true progress.

 

Two fools and a genius seem to more problematic if they form a governing counsel, and the demographics more probable than that of an entire country. It is more likely that some of the dysfunctional "democracies" today are a function of not truly embracing democracy rather than simply being a nation with a majority of fools. Those who have not embraced democracy as a means of betterment for all, revert to old tribal or sectarian hatreds. Winning an election is seen as a means to power to finally stick it too the object of their hatred.

 

So choose as you will. Look to the past with rose colored glasses, fantasize about some miracle in the future, or use the tools at hand to build a successful, free and tolerant society for yourselves and your children.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The difference between me and many people who post here is that I do not deny the past.

You don't have to. The reason is simply because you can't. Your history is too dark .... so, it is not worth the efforts to deny it. It's to your disadvtange in fact if you dare to deny it.

 

If you want to talk about a nation that lasted much longer than 400 years and was involved in massacres, genocides, robbery, kidnapping and enslavement let us talk about the Kalifate which conquered neighbor after neighbor after neighbor and was involved in all the hideous things you mentioned including slavery and massacres and kidnapping.

Well, you have to argue this with your Western historians. They are non Muslims. There is no an established pattern of massacres in Muslim caliphates. You have been too manipulated for too long that in the last month's discussion you even had the guts to take the US as an example of how a country should act toward other defeated countries and their POWs.

 

I have no lust for zionism, as I have explained and been ignored about before. I simply don't believe in some conspiracy theory that the world is being run by a small group of devious Jews.

I thought you were not a simpleton? :sl:

 

I love it when you pretend to be obtuse. At least I assume you are pretending. Noone else seemed confused by the question.

My answer to your post #2 is that, it is bad. Now, based on the post of the first poster, do you think democracy is good or bad for your country?

 

Wassalam,

Y

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well, you have to argue this with your Western historians. They are non Muslims. There is no an established pattern of massacres in Muslim caliphates. You have been too manipulated for too long that in the last month's discussion you even had the guts to take the US as an example of how a country should act toward other defeated countries and their POWs

 

That is the difference between us. I do not glorify everything in the past and conveniently ignore the bad things. I am proud of the good my country has done and ashamed of the bad, whereas you are proud of the good things done under Muslim caliphates yet deny or excuse the bad.

 

And yes, I am proud of the way that the US has treated defeated countries in the past. Look at the nations it defeated in WWII. If the US had been a Muslim caliphate then those countries would all be annexed by now, instead they are free, independent and powerful countries on their own.

 

You and those that ignore any information that tarnishes your golden view of the past are the ones that are being manipulated, are even doing the manipulating.

 

I thought you were not a simpleton?

 

I don't believe in Big Foot, the Loch Ness Monster or that there was a man on the grassy knoll either. I don't believe this world can fix its problems until we acknowledge them, and believing in some hidden boogeyman/Illuminati/Zionist/Freemason/Skull&Bones conspiracy shadow government isn't going to do it.

 

My answer to your post #2 is that, it is bad. Now, based on the post of the first poster, do you think democracy is good or bad for your country?

 

Why do you believe it is bad?

 

I think democracy is great for my country. While our system is not perfect it is certainly better than any other system out there. The problem with any government in which the people rule is that there will be bad decisions, and even in this system there are things done against the will of the majority and without their permission or knowledge. That is not the fault of the system, though. There does not exist a system of government in which this is not the case.

 

I tend to have fairly high opinion of people in general, so therefore I believe in democracy. I don't see how someone can be against a democratic government in their country unless they either think their population is too stupid to vote properly, or they simply don't like the way that they know they will vote. Is there another option, and if not which category do you fall under?

 

I much prefer having a voice in the laws of my country and who the leaders are.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The difference between me and many people who post here is that I do not deny the past. Yes, the US has done many abhorrent things. I must correct you, though, since this nation has been around less than 250 years, not the 400 you mentioned.

 

In 1492, Christopher Columbus on a sea voyage that was funded by Queen Isabella of Spain set the stage for the rape of American civilizations: Spanish, Portuguese and English invaders and their descendants who claimed that they were 'Americans' slaughtered millions of native inhabitants in America so that their land could be seized by the US regime. And then the remaining native Americans were banished to deserts by the US regime so that they would die of famine and diseases etc. And now the native Americans are still oppressed by the US regime.

 

If you want to talk about a nation that lasted much longer than 400 years and was involved in massacres, genocides, robbery, kidnapping and enslavement let us talk about the Kalifate which conquered neighbor after neighbor after neighbor and was involved in all the hideous things you mentioned including slavery and massacres and kidnapping.

 

History tells us how Christian kings of Europe cooperated to destroy Islamic countries by sending Christian crusaders to attack, invade, occupy and terrorize Muslim countries so Muslims had their right to defend themselves against the Christian crusaders who had terrorized and massacred innocent Muslims,Jews, and Eastern Christians in Palestine, Spain etc. Muslims managed to defeat the Christian crusaders and conquered Christian countries in order to protect Muslim countries against the Christian invasions. In other Muslims needed buffer zones to protect Muslim countries against Christian countries! And Muslims had treated Christians and Jews kindly and humanely and they were allowed to serve the Muslim governments in Europe and Muslim countries that caused many Christians reverted to Islam voluntarily. And Muslims respect religious freedom so today we may find Christians and Jews in the countries that were once conquered by Muslims.

 

On the contrary, Christian crusaders terrorized, massacred and robbed Christians in Byzantine etc when they were on their way to Palestine. In Palestine, the Christian crusaders who were blessed by blood-thirsty popes and Christian warmongers terrorized, raped, tortured and massacred innocent Muslims, Jews and Eastern Christians in the name of Jesus.

 

On March 30, 1492, Queen Isabella issued an edict demanding that Jews and Muslims in Spain either convert to Catholicism, leave the country, or be executed. And many Muslims and Jews were executed by Catholics and their properties were seized and sold by the Spanish regime in the name of the infamous 'Inquisition'for refusing to convert to Christianity! Catholics had also seized all the Masjids in Spain and turned them into churches! Were/Are there any Muslim countries that had seized all the churches and turned them into Masjids?

 

Livius....you are biased and ignorant!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
That is the difference between us. I do not glorify everything in the past and conveniently ignore the bad things.

It's not about that. It's about your misconception of the Islamic history. Before arguing with us, you should argue first with Western non-Muslim historians.

 

And yes, I am proud of the way that the US has treated defeated countries in the past. Look at the nations it defeated in WWII. If the US had been a Muslim caliphate then those countries would all be annexed by now, instead they are free, independent and powerful countries on their own.

Bombing two major cities in German is not enough suffering I guess for an American? Can you please tell me again how much Germans should pay to you after their surrender? How can you promote your treatment of the defeated countries here and at the same time ignoring all your sins of deliberately killing innocents during the wars and even after the wars? Pick and choose ...? Glorifying and ignoring ...?

 

You and those that ignore any information that tarnishes your golden view of the past are the ones that are being manipulated, are even doing the manipulating.

I have no golden view of the past. It's the general golden history of Muslim that makes non-Muslim historian have to come to the defense of Islam and enlighten the manipulated.

 

I don't believe in Big Foot, the Loch Ness Monster or that there was a man on the grassy knoll either. I don't believe this world can fix its problems until we acknowledge them, and believing in some hidden

Our system of the world does allow a small of group of people to run and control this world.

 

I think democracy is great for my country.

Generally it is good. But the issue is the first post made by the original post. In that connection, how do you answer your own question?

 

Wassalam,

Y

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

######,

 

I am well aware of how the Native Americans were treated. I am actually part Native American myself.

 

Are you aware that under Muslim rule there have been forced conversions? Massacres of Jews? African slave trade?

 

You excuse taking over a nation simply to use it as a buffer?

 

And Muslims respect religious freedom so today we may find Christians and Jews in the countries that were once conquered by Muslims.

 

I will admit that 1,000 years ago Muslim nations were more tolerant than Christian nations towards other religions. They were treated like children instead of like lepers. Yes, you still find Christians and Jews in Muslim nations today, but most have left in the last 50 years to places that are more tolerant and Jewish populations and Christian populations are miniscule and often face persecution. Muslim nations today are the prime examples of intolerance and what should not be done.

 

Were/Are there any Muslim countries that had seized all the churches and turned them into Masjids?

 

Muslims turned many many churches into Masjids. They have even turned Jewish and Christian holy sites into Masjids. Are you not aware of this history, or do you need me to tell you more?

 

Neither one of us should proud of the bad things done in the past, but neither should we ignore them, ######. Neither one of us took part in the massacres or the slavery so neither one of us should feel the need to apologize for what our ancestors did, or in my case what my ancestors did to my other ancestors.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I am well aware of how the Native Americans were treated. I am actually part Native American myself.

 

Why don't you expose the sufferings of native Americans instead of condoning all the crimes of the US regime?

 

Are you aware that under Muslim rule there have been forced conversions?

 

If there were forced conversions, there should be no non-Muslims in Muslim countries and the countries that were once conquered by Muslims. The fact is there are many non-Muslims in those countries indicating that there were/are no forced conversions in the countries!

 

Massacres of Jews?

 

Be specific please.

 

African slave trade?

 

Why don't you ask Christians and Jews on how they acquire slaves, managed their slave trade and marketed their slaves all over the world. Why don't you read history books?

 

You excuse taking over a nation simply to use it as a buffer?

 

It seems to me that you don't know about military science and politic. A buffer zone is any zonal area that serves the purpose of keeping two or more other areas distant from one another. And Muslims needed buffer zones to prevent violence and protect Muslim countries fagainst the Christian aggressions and to prevent conflict between Muslim countries and Christian countries. After all the buffer states were conquered by Muslims as a result of the Christian aggressions.

 

I will admit that 1,000 years ago Muslim nations were more tolerant than Christian nations towards other religions. They were treated like children instead of like lepers. Yes, you still find Christians and Jews in Muslim nations today, but most have left in the last 50 years to places that are more tolerant and Jewish populations and Christian populations are miniscule and often face persecution. Muslim nations today are the prime examples of intolerance and what should not be done.

 

If non-Muslims are persecuted by Muslims in Muslims countries, why don't they all leave Muslim countries for good? On the contrary, I see non-Muslims are allowed to practise their beliefs, manage their business successfully and become successful businessman and become hold high positions in Muslim government.

 

Do you know the meaning of 'emigration'? Emigration is the act and the phenomenon of leaving one's native country or region to settle in another. Nowadays many people tend to emigrate to richer nations for the betterment of their lives.

 

Based on your allegations above:

 

1) If European people emigrate to USA, you would think they face persecution in Europe.

 

2) If Hindus emigrate to Europe, you would think that the Hindus are persecuted by Hindus in India etc.

 

Muslims turned many many churches into Masjids.

 

Evidence? Do you understand my questions above?

 

They have even turned Jewish and Christian holy sites into Masjids.

 

Evidence?

 

Are you not aware of this history, or do you need me to tell you more?

 

I know history very well. The more you tell me, the more you expose your ignorance and bigotry to us.

 

Neither one of us should proud of the bad things done in the past, but neither should we ignore them, ######. Neither one of us took part in the massacres or the slavery so neither one of us should feel the need to apologize for what our ancestors did, or in my case what my ancestors did to my other ancestors.

 

Then why do you slander and insult Islam and Muslims?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Then why do you slander and insult Islam and Muslims?

 

I don't. I expose the double standard you have when it comes to history. lSlander implies a lie. I have only told the truth.

 

You want specifics on massacres of Jews and their "great" treatment? Read (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetjewishvirtuallibrary(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/jsource/myths/mf15.html"]this[/url]. Do you have excuses for these examples? 5,000 Jews massacred in Granada in 1066?

 

If the USA did any of the things mentioned you would call it a travesty. What will be your reaction when it was Muslim countries that did it?

 

Churches and holy sites turned into Masjids? (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Conversion_of_non-Muslim_places_of_worship_into_mosques"]Read this.[/url]

 

If there were forced conversions, there should be no non-Muslims in Muslim countries and the countries that were once conquered by Muslims. The fact is there are many non-Muslims in those countries indicating that there were/are no forced conversions in the countries!

 

Then I guess forced conversions did not happen in Spain because there are Muslims and Jews that live there now? Once again your logic does not work.

 

A buffer zone is any zonal area that serves the purpose of keeping two or more other areas distant from one another.

 

I have no doubt that you condone Muslim nations taking over their neighbors so that they can use them as shields, but I also know that if a non-Muslim nation did the same thing you would cry about the injustice of it, especially if their neighbor they used as a buffer was a Muslim nation.

 

If non-Muslims are persecuted by Muslims in Muslims countries, why don't they all leave Muslim countries for good?

 

The vast majority of them have. You want a great indicator of how these people are treated? Take a look at this:

 

######you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_pewglobal(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/reports/images/248-6.gif[/img]

 

What is the attitude for Jews in Muslim countries ######? They hate them.

 

How often have people on this forum railed against the treatment of Muslims in the West, yet look at how the West feels about Muslims compared to how Muslims feel about Jews and Christians, then tell me who is tolerant and who are the bigots. In Muslim nations Muslims seem to like Muslims and look disfavorably on everyone else.

 

If this is your idea of Muslim tolerance then you can keep it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You want specifics on massacres of Jews and their "great" treatment? Read (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetjewishvirtuallibrary(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/jsource/myths/mf15.html"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetjewishvirtuallibrary(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/jsource/myths/mf15.html[/url]

jewish virtual library? and what do you want to show from this anyway in comparison to the US?

 

wassalam,

y

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is using a Jewish source about history any worse than using an Islamic one? If you find anything they have written incorrect please let us know.

 

As for what I want to show from this comparison, for the purposes of this thread it is to show that it is not the form of government that dictates whether a nation does good or ill, and that any form of government is capable of doing both.

 

It is also to help show some balance in peoples views. Some people want to demonize the US and show that Muslim government is the epitome of justice and equality. To do so they have to both ignore the good things that the US has accomplished and at the same time completely ignore or deny the bad things that Muslim nations have done. That is intellectually dishonest.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Salamz

 

In democracy, views of one fool is equal to the views of one genious but views of two fools are supreme than views of one genious. :sl:

This is true and indeed a big draw-back of democracy but consider this..democracy under this assumptions serves well only a ntion where genious outnumber the fools :sl: ...based on literacy rates ...this system may not suit the third world nations. But honestly speaking, I can't imagine a secular system that is better than democracy. So yea it might suck but what better options are out there

 

Peace

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

well well , WHERE are the people of all nations trying to sneak into , pay to get into , wait on line to get into ?

 

Democratic Nations , or theocratic police states ?

 

Haha , even the naysayers prefer democracies from which they rail and rant against .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't. I expose the double standard you have when it comes to history. lSlander implies a lie. I have only told the truth.

 

Yes you have slandered Islam and Muslims by giving biased, false and misleading information against Islam and Muslims.

 

You want specifics on massacres of Jews and their "great" treatment? Read (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetjewishvirtuallibrary(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/jsource/myths/mf15.html"]this[/url]. Do you have excuses for these examples? 5,000 Jews massacred in Granada in 1066?

 

I have visited this website and I find that it is a Zionist website that gives biased, misleading and false information against Islam and Muslims. In fact I have visited many Zionist websites that invent fairy tales to trick the world into believing that Zionists are the oppressed people while ignoring Zionist crimes against Muslims and non-Muslims. Why don't the Zionists tell the world that they have established the illegal israel by terrorizing, massacring and robbing innocent Palestinian people of their land etc instead of slandering and framing Palestinian people who own Palestine? Why do Zionists tell the world that Palestinian people use few small rockets that damage very few Zionist homes and injure very few Zionists while hiding the fact the Zionists have murdered hundreds of thousands of Palestinian and Lebanese babies, children, women etc? Zionists are biased and deceitful!

 

You claim falsely that Muslims had persecuted and massacred Jews in Muslim countries. I know you lie because it was the Jews who voluntarily sought refuge in Muslim countries from the Christians who were forcing them to convert to Christianity in Spain! If Muslims were cruel etc according to the deceitful Jews, why did the Jews leave Christian countries for Muslim countries during the infamous Spanish Inquisition? Why didn't they emigrate to India or China etc instead of moving to Muslim countries?

 

Churches and holy sites turned into Masjids? (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Conversion_of_non-Muslim_places_of_worship_into_mosques"]Read this.[/url]

 

I have visited this biased website and I find that Wikipedia states that 'the neutrality of this article is disputed' and I find that it give us misleading information against Islam and Muslims. This so-called 'article' has given us very few names of the churches etc that were converted to Masjids. On the contrary, all the Masjids in Spain were seized by Christians and they turned them into churches! It seems to me that this biased 'article' is written to slander Islam and Muslims.

 

Then I guess forced conversions did not happen in Spain because there are Muslims and Jews that live there now? Once again your logic does not work.

 

Your allegation above reflects your ignorance. Were there any Muslims or Jews after the Christians had forced them to convert to Christianity in the name of Spanish Inquisition? Those Muslims and Jews who refused to convert to Christianity were either massacred or fled. Now tell me please when did the first Muslim and Jew come to Spain after the infamous Spanish Inquisition?

 

I have no doubt that you condone Muslim nations taking over their neighbors so that they can use them as shields, but I also know that if a non-Muslim nation did the same thing you would cry about the injustice of it, especially if their neighbor they used as a buffer was a Muslim nation.

 

The fact is Muslims had their right to defend their countries against the Christian crusaders who were attacking and invading Muslims countries again and again so Muslims had to defeat them and conquer the Christian countries and used them as buffer states to stop Christian aggression!

 

The vast majority of them have. You want a great indicator of how these people are treated? Take a look at this:

 

This very simple statistics does not show how those people are treated. Who are the targets of of the so-called 'research' and what is the methodology used in the so-called 'research? Who did carry out the so-called research? And the findings are subjective not objective based on the table! The fact is there are many non-Muslims living in Muslim countries and there are non-Muslims who emigrate to Muslim countries for economic reasons. We see that there are many non-Muslims of USA, Europe, Asia etc who emigrate to Muslim countries such as Brunei, Saudi Arabia, Gulf states, Malaysia etc for economic reasons! And there are many non-Muslims and Muslims who emigrate to non-Muslim countries for the same economic reasons.

 

What is the attitude for Jews in Muslim countries ######? They hate them.

 

If the Jews hate them why don't they emigrate to israel, USA, Europe instead of living in Muslim countries and earning so much money from their businesses etc? Jews had left Spain for Muslim countries to escape death and forced conversion and they lived in Muslim countries doing their business. And now when they have new hosts such as israel, USA etc, you claim the Jews say that they hate Muslim countries. The Jews must be very ungrateful and selfish. And some of the Jews even endanger Muslim countries by conspiring and cooperating with Mossad to destroy or sabotage Muslim countries. For example: Lavon Affair

 

In the summer of 1954 Colonel Binyamin Gibli, the chief of israel's military intelligence, Aman, initiated Operation Suzannah in order to reverse that decision. The goal of the Operation was to carry out bombings and other acts of sabotage in Egypt with the aim of creating an atmosphere in which the British and American opponents of British withdrawal from Egypt would be able to gain the upper hand and block the withdrawal.[3]

 

The top-secret cell, Unit 131, which was to carry out the operation, had existed since 1948 and under Aman since 1950. At the time of Operation Susannah, Unit 131 was the subject of a bitter dispute between Aman and Mossad over who should control it.

 

Unit 131 operatives had been recruited several years before, when the israeli intelligence officer Avram Dar arrived in Cairo undercover as a British citizen of Gibraltar called John Darling. He had recruited several Egyptian Jews who had previously been active in illegal emigration activities and trained them for covert operations.

 

Aman decided to activate the network in the spring of 1954. On July 2, a post office in Alexandria was firebombed, and on July 14, the U.S. Information Agency libraries in Alexandria and Cairo, and a British-owned theater were bombed. The homemade bombs, consisting of bags containing acid placed over nitroglycerine, were inserted into books, and placed on the shelves of the libraries just before closing time. Several hours later, as the acid ate through the bags, the bombs would explode. They did little damage to the targets and caused no injuries or deaths.

 

Before the group began israeli agent Avraham Seidenberg (Avri Elad) was sent to oversee the operations. Seidenberg assumed the identity of Paul Frank, a former SS officer with Nazi underground connections. Avraham Seidenberg allegedly informed the Egyptians resulting in the Egyptian Intelligence Service following a suspect to his target, the Rio Theatre, where a fire engine was standing by. Egyptian authorities prematurely arrested this suspect, Philip Natanson, when his bomb accidentally ignited prematurely in his pocket. Having searched his apartment, they found incriminating evidence and names of accomplices to the operation. Several suspects were arrested, including Egyptian Jews and undercover israelis. Colonel Dar and Seidenberg had managed to escape.

 

Source: (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Lavon_affair"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Lavon_affair[/url]

 

How often have people on this forum railed against the treatment of Muslims in the West, yet look at how the West feels about Muslims compared to how Muslims feel about Jews and Christians, then tell me who is tolerant and who are the bigots. In Muslim nations Muslims seem to like Muslims and look disfavorably on everyone else.

 

The West has been invading and occupying Muslim countries and plundering all the wealth of Muslim countries since the day Vasco Da Gama sailed to Muslim countries. In other word, the West have robbed Muslims of their wealth to enrich the West. And now Zionist Christians and Zionists of the West have invented cartoons, films, fairy tales etc to insult and slander Islam and Muslims. Is this the way how the West try to make Muslims love the West?

 

If this is your idea of Muslim tolerance then you can keep it.

 

I will carry on exposing the truth and I will refute all the lies!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×