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Hate Speech, Free Speech Iii: Another Provocation

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HATE SPEECH, FREE SPEECH III: Another provocation

 

By Shaykh Hamza Yusuf Hanson, Din Syamsuddin and Prince Hassan bin Talal

 

The Dutch parliamentarian Geert Wilders has touched off a fierce debate with his plans to post a short film on the Internet that is said to be highly critical of the Koran and Islam. A date has not been set, and there is no certainty that the film will be posted. But the anticipation has already touched off a heated discussion, and raised fears that the film could set off violence of the sort that followed publication of cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad in Denmark. Following are four comments on the film and the furor around it.

 

A recent Gallup poll of Muslims in 39 countries reported that 92 percent of Muslims believe that attacks on civilians can never be justified. When asked to explain their position, a significant segment of the group cited the Koran's insistence on safeguarding innocent life as a moral duty. In spite of this, Geert Wilders would have us think otherwise.

 

Wilders's film is the latest in a series of provocations against Muslim communities in Holland, and against Islam in general. Its title, "Fitna," is taken from an Arabic word meaning chaos and civil strife.

 

It seems that this is also Wilders's intended outcome in producing the work. He argues that most Dutch Muslims should leave Holland or tear up at least half the Koran if they wish to stay. He promises that his film will definitively show "the violent and fascist elements of the Muslim faith."

 

There is no doubt that a small number of criminal extremists have committed violence in the name of Islam in recent years. But they do not represent the overwhelming majority of Muslims.

 

The Gallup poll also shows that the tiny minority of people who believe that violence can sometimes be justified rarely use religion or the Koran to support their views. Their reasons are mostly geopolitical. In other words, Wilders's anti-Muslim ranting is not only racist, it is inaccurate.

 

The cynical use of identity politics to pit people against each other for political gain is not a new tactic. The past few years have been marred by a rise in tensions between small groups of extremists all over the world promoting the perception of a supposed "Muslim-West" divide.

 

It is no surprise that those on the fringes of either side of "the divide" use similar, incendiary rhetoric to provoke young people, with the ultimate aim of strengthening their own political platforms. In releasing a film that will undoubtedly insult deeply held religious beliefs, it seems that Wilders is hoping to cause a violent reaction to prove his own argument.

 

As with the Danish cartoon crisis two years ago, this situation, while dangerous, also presents unique opportunities.

 

Every time resources are deployed to spread disinformation, there is an attendant rise in the public's curiosity. Already there are many who are interested in learning more about Islam. It is likely that their number will grow after this. It is critical that we seize this opportunity to mobilize ourselves to present a more accurate picture of Islam.

 

As mediators in an increasingly heated debate, our efforts to counter the likes of Wilders must be both outwardly directed - in teaching others about Muslims - as well as inwardly directed toward our youth.

 

How do we ensure that our youth do not fall prey to such provocation?

 

We must be sensitive to their needs, and listen to them carefully. We should use every opportunity to further the development of healthy Western and Muslim identities. We must provide them with alternatives both in terms of information and platforms for dialogue and participation. And the best way to start doing this is to exemplify moderation in our own words and actions. Our Prophet would have done no less.

 

Shaykh Hamza Yusuf Hansona is a Muslim American scholar of Islam. Din Syamsuddin is the president of the Muhammadiya, the second largest Islamic organization of Indonesia. Prince Hassan bin Talal of Jordan is the president of the Arab Thought Forum.

 

Source: (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetiht(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/articles/2008/03/25/opinion/edfilm3.php"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetiht(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/articles/2008/03/25/opinion/edfilm3.php[/url]

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I am not surprised to see Geert Wilders slandering and insulting Islam and Muslims because Geert Wilders is a Zionist Christian. And I know that Zionists and their Goyim the Zionist Christians are conspiring and cooperating to provoke Muslims by drawing cartoons and making films etc to insult and slander Islam and Muslims.

 

Position on israel

 

Source: (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Geert_Wilders"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_en.wikipedia(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/wiki/Geert_Wilders[/url]

 

In the past twenty five years Geert Wilders has visited israel about forty times, he says. According to his own sayings, he has met Ariel Sharon ("many times") and Ehud Olmert, among others, in israel. Furthermore, he claims tight connections with the Mossad.[24]

 

Originally, Wilders wanted to move to the Jewish state because he thought one could, as opposed to the Netherlands, 'work for your own money'.[24] Wilders worked in bread factories and a moshav.[25] With the money he earned, he traveled through israel and some near countries. He started to love israel, or as he states it in his own words in 2003: "The past years I have visited many interesting countries, from Tunisia to Turkey and from Cyprus to Iran, but nowhere I have that special feeling of solidarity that I always get if I set foot on the israeli Ben Gurion Airport." [24]

 

Wilders has, in the eight years he has served in the Dutch Parliament, always supported israel and attacked countries he perceives as enemies of israel.[24] More than a few members of the People's Party for Freedom and Democracy suspect Wilders of taking guidance from the israeli Embassy in the Netherlands (which is only a few meters away from the Dutch Parliament) in order to question Dutch ministers. Wilders has always denied this. [24]

 

Furthermore, Wilders has made some proposals in the Dutch Parliament inspired by israel. For example, in 2005 Wilders proposed implementing israel's administrative detention in the Netherlands, a practice heavily criticized by human rights group Amnesty International. Also, at the time Wilders was member of the People's Party for Freedom and Democracy, he had an employee who directly came from the israeli Embassy. [24]

 

References:

24 # ^ a b c d e f "Verliefd op Israël", Volkskrant, 2007-04-10. Retrieved on 2008-03-24. (Dutch)

25 # ^ Liphshiz, Cnaan. "Far-right Dutch politician brings his anti-Islam rhetoric back to Jerusalem", Haaretz, 2008-01-11

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Couple comments on this post.

 

-The idea of something being "Hate Speech" is inimical to the idea of Free Speech. Any opinion, no matter how biased, misguided, and hateful should be protected under Free Speech laws. That includes Wilders film and the rantings of pro-terrorists mullahs. The day we give governments the power to control what we can and cannot say is the beginning of the end.

 

- I would hesitate to call Wilders racist, because my understanding is that Islam is not exclusive to any specific ethnicity. He undoubtedly dislikes Islam, but I think calling him racist is a misnomer.

 

- The quoted text below is an excellent solution, and one of the best pieces of advice I've seen on this issue as of yet.

 

 

 

 

How do we ensure that our youth do not fall prey to such provocation?

 

We must be sensitive to their needs, and listen to them carefully. We should use every opportunity to further the development of healthy Western and Muslim identities. We must provide them with alternatives both in terms of information and platforms for dialogue and participation. And the best way to start doing this is to exemplify moderation in our own words and actions. Our Prophet would have done no less.

 

Shaykh Hamza Yusuf Hansona is a Muslim American scholar of Islam. Din Syamsuddin is the president of the Muhammadiya, the second largest Islamic organization of Indonesia. Prince Hassan bin Talal of Jordan is the president of the Arab Thought Forum.

 

Source: you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetiht(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/articles/2008/03/25/opinion/edfilm3.php

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-The idea of something being "Hate Speech" is inimical to the idea of Free Speech. Any opinion, no matter how biased, misguided, and hateful should be protected under Free Speech laws. That includes Wilders film and the rantings of pro-terrorists mullahs. The day we give governments the power to control what we can and cannot say is the beginning of the end.

 

- I would hesitate to call Wilders racist, because my understanding is that Islam is not exclusive to any specific ethnicity. He undoubtedly dislikes Islam, but I think calling him racist is a misnomer.

 

- The quoted text below is an excellent solution, and one of the best pieces of advice I've seen on this issue as of yet.

 

I have read your posts on this thread and other thread and I find that you Leonidas are defending and supporting hate speech and you are trying to disguise the hate speech as free speech.

 

Inventing, producing and promoting anti-Islamic cartoons, anti-Islamic films or video, anti-Islamic books etc to insult and slander Islam, the Prophet Muhammad, and Muslims to degrade, intimidate, or incite violence or prejudicial action against Muslims based on their race, gender, age, ethnicity, nationality, religion etc is a criminal offence. Therefore it is hate speech not free speech.

 

In many countries, deliberate use of hate speech is a criminal offence prohibited under incitement to hatred legislation:

 

In the United Kingdom, incitement to racial hatred is an offence under the Public Order Act 1986 with a maximum sentence of up to seven years imprisonment.

 

In Brazil, according to the 1988 Brazilian Constitution, racism and other forms of race-related hate speech are "imprescriptible crime(s) with no right to bail to its accused".

 

Singapore has passed numerous laws that prohibit speech that causes disharmony among various religious groups. The Maintenance of Religious Harmony Act is an example of such legislation.

 

The German constitution is more restrictive, guaranteeing 'freedom of voicing one's opinion' and elsewhere restricts its misuse against the public peace. The German Criminal Code specifically forbids inciting hatred against ethnic groups, and revisionism, as in France under the Gayssot Act, is prohibited on those grounds.

 

The world does not tolerate hate speech. Why do you Leonidas, Zionists and other similar species support and defend hate speech?

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######, why do you, as a Zionist, pretend to be Muslim and attack others wildly, thus defaming the name of Islam?

 

Why do you continue to call me a Zionist for defending the Freedom of everyone, including Muslims, to say what they think without fear of retribution? Why do you want to do away with their right to speak? Do you want to silence Muslims and Non-Muslims alike?

 

Why don't we simply continue this conversation in the other thread, since this one is kind of dead?

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I am a Muslim and I am defending Islam and Muslims who are being persecuted,terrorized, slandered, insulted and framed by the enemies of Islam. And I have facts and evidence to support my statements so they are not a defamation.

 

You Leonidas are a supporter of Zionism so you are a Zionist based on own your posts on other thread of this Islamic Forum. For example: you have ordered me to stop exposing all the crimes that are committed by Zionists. Am I defending speech freedom by hiding all the Zionist crimes against humanity like the Zionist media have done?

 

I know that Zionists are behind the anti-Islamic cartoons, anti-Islamic films and videos and anti-Islamic books and now you Leonidas are supporting them and defending their hate speech that degrade, intimidate, or incite violence or prejudicial action against Muslims based on their race, gender, age, ethnicity, nationality, religion etc.

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I suppose it must be easy to quell criticism when you assume everyone who is anti-Islam or critical of Islam to be Zionists hell-bent on your destruction.

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I am a Muslim and I am defending Islam and Muslims who are being persecuted,terrorized, slandered, insulted and framed by the enemies of Islam. And I have facts and evidence to support my statements so they are not a defamation.

 

You Leonidas are a supporter of Zionism so you are a Zionist based on own your posts on other thread of this Islamic Forum. For example: you have ordered me to stop exposing all the crimes that are committed by Zionists.

 

 

Okay, put up or shut up on this one. Give me the EXACT QUOTE where I "ordered" you to stop exposing Zionist crimes. Not times when I argued with your intrepretation, not times when I said something you disagree with...

 

Alternatively, you could simply call me a Zionist and babble on and on about half-perceived slights. That seems to be a popular option. :sl:

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-The idea of something being "Hate Speech" is inimical to the idea of Free Speech. Any opinion, no matter how biased, misguided, and hateful should be protected under Free Speech laws.

 

Do you believe that people should have the right to verbally support the enemies of America, and that their speech should be protected under the constitution? I'm especially thinking of the countless imams who were arrested in the U.S solely based on the lectures they gave at masjids and other places.

 

Salam.

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Do you believe that people should have the right to verbally support the enemies of America, and that their speech should be protected under the constitution? I'm especially thinking of the countless imams who were arrested in the U.S solely based on the lectures they gave at masjids and other places.

 

Salam.

 

 

As long as it's verbal support, not recruitment, yes I do. They have the right to say what they think, no matter how wrong they are.

 

Verbally supporting terrorism and genocide makes you a douchebag, in my opinion, but you still have the right to speak your mind.

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.. And before anyone attacks me, saying "Hurrr Hurr, you r teh stupids!" because countries in the West have arrested people like these Imams... I don't agree with those laws at all. They are in direct opposition to the right to free speech, and are symptoms of attempts to strengthen Government control of the individual.

 

You have the right to express what you think, even if others find it hateful.

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Okay, put up or shut up on this one. Give me the EXACT QUOTE where I "ordered" you to stop exposing Zionist crimes. Not times when I argued with your intrepretation, not times when I said something you disagree with...

 

You Leonidas said "######, if you are truly against "Hate Speech", you will immediately stop posting hateful comments toward Zionists and israeli Defence Forces." (you are not allowed to post links yet)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=228669&st=20"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_you are not allowed to post links yetgawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showtopic=228669&st=20[/url]

 

I have exposed Zionist crimes against humanity based on facts and evidence. Exposing Zionist terrorism and crimes is not Hate Speech. It is speech freedom.

 

Alternatively, you could simply call me a Zionist and babble on and on about half-perceived slights. That seems to be a popular option. :sl:

 

You are supporting and defending Zionists and Zionism passionately so you are a Zionist. Do you want me to define 'Zionist'?

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Hi all :sl:

 

What is so wrong with freedom of speech? That same freedom allows anyone of any religion to practice there religion in peace without fear of judgement. My personal view is this.

 

Say ( hypothetically ) i dont like your religion or what it stands for at all but then i find out my government is going to kill, stop or make illegal your said religion. My reaction would be to stand with you side by side and defend your right to have them beliefs. Regardless of my dislike for ( add any religion here ), freedom of speech allows you to have them said beliefs.

 

UNTILL it imposes on anyone else's freedom. When this happens we should sit down and voice our concerns like adults to work out a viable solution.

 

Peace

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Unfortunately, Islam's restictions on free speech are pretty clear (to those who interpret the Koran that way, anyway) so anyone advocatiing free speech is regardsd by fundamentalists like ###### as attacking Islam. You'll probaly have noticed the insane lengths that a few (by no means all) Muslims on this forum go to avoid criticising another Muslim for anything. It's why Darfur is rarely mentioned (and the government is never criticised even whenn it is) and why the Taliban is supported. Also, Islam has an odd (to non-Muslim eyes) idea that a crime kept secet is less reprehensible than a crime made public.

 

All this is worrying, but it's nothing to the stunning hypocrisy of posters like ###### who feel free to spread ANY lie about 'Zionists'. You won't find ###### burning embassies because someone has drawn a cartoon of a Jew.

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bartlett .......You have failed to differentiate hate speech from free speech and your attempt to disguise hate speech as free speech expose your hypocritical personality. You even condone the Zionist terrorism so you have exposed your double standard thus you are a hypocrite. I always use evidence, facts etc to prove that Zionists have committed crimes against humanity. Is it a stunning hypocrisy to use evidence, facts etc to expose the Zionist crimes? Whenever I investigate the source of the anti-Islamic products, I find that Zionists are behind the anti-Islamic products!

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Where have I condoned 'Zionist terrorism'? You slander me.

 

I don't like 'hate speech', but it's something that I am prepared to accept as a price for having free speech. If the sort of laws that you think Islam has against 'hate speech' really existed the Protocols would be banned in Muslim countries and you would be jailed for claiming them to be true. In Iran you would probably be hung.

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Where have I condoned 'Zionist terrorism'? You slander me.

 

Have you forgotten that you have said "All this is worrying, but it's nothing to the stunning hypocrisy of posters like ###### who feel free to spread ANY lie about 'Zionists'." ????

 

Zionists have committed brutal crimes against Palestinian , Lebanese people etc and I have facts and evidence to support my statements and I will not hesitate to debate with you about the Zionist terrorism.

 

I don't like 'hate speech', but it's something that I am prepared to accept as a price for having free speech.

 

You are contradicting yourself. It is like to say that you hate dictatorship, but it's something that you are prepared to accept as a price for having democracy!

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n your record, you ARE prepared to spread any lie about zionists. How does that mean I condone 'zionist terrorism'?

 

Nonsense. 'Hate speech' is speech. No speech should be banned.

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