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Mot

Was Jesus Really God?

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One of the major doctrines and themes of the Bible is the revelation of Jesus as God. The name Jesus is in fact the same name that God in the Old Testament used to reveal himself to people such as Moses, Abraham, and many others. Jesus means "Jehovah Savior." In the Old Testament, Jehovah God revealed many of his characteristics through names. For example, the name Jehovah-jireh (the Lord my provider) was revealed to Abraham when Jehovah provided a ram for him and his son Isaac, seconds (presumably) before Abraham was about to offer Isaac as a burnt sacrifice. (Genesis 22) He wanted to show that he was "the Lord that provides." When he revealed Jesus or "the Lord that saves" he wanted to show that characteristic of his personality. That is one reason why I believe that Jesus was God.

Why do not Muslims believe that Jesus was God? Is it stated in the Qur'an? How do Muslims know that Jesus was not God in the flesh? Is it impossible for God to take a form that is visible to humans? Is it impossible to see God? Can God not do something? Why do Muslims believe what they believe? God bless!

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Guest amani

Hello Mot anf firstly, welcome to Gawaher. i hope your stay here is a beneficial one and look forward to reading your posts.

 

in the Quran it states:

 

Say: He is Allah, the One and Only [112:1]

 

 

Muslims do not believe Jesus (peace be upon him) was the Son of God simply because God is One, who has no partner or son.

We believe Jesus (PBUH) is one of the greatest of God's messengers. His duty on earth is also not finished.

 

the Quraan describes his birth.

 

16 Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East.

17 She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.

18 She said: "I seek refuge from thee to ((Allah)) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear Allah."

19 He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.

20 She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"

21 He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us':It is a matter (so) decreed."

22 So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place.

[19]

i also urge you to read the rest of this, which you may do so

 

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_searchtruth(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/chapter_display.php?chapter=19&translator=2&mac="]here[/url]

 

now you may say, but Jesus (PBUH) had no father so this shows something... Allah states (trans)

 

The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was. [3:59]

 

regarding Jesus (pbuh) he himself never said he was the son of God so this is actually a lie against him. he did not bring about a new religion. in the Quraan it states:

 

 

49 "And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah.s leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah.s leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;

50 "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.

51 'It is Allah Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight

 

 

i have not quoted all of the verses.. but i urge you to read it in your own time :D

 

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_searchtruth(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/chapter_display.php?chapter=3&translator=2&mac="]read here[/url] from verse 42. this will give you understanding of what we believe, and the Quran is the True Word of God, without a doubt.

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Guest amani

furthermore, we do have an post on this very forum regarding (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.gawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?s=&showtopic=1450&view=findpost&p=12867"]Jesus (pbuh) in the Quraan[/url]

 

also the (www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.gawaher(contact admin if its a beneficial link)/index.php?showforum=182"]Refuting non muslims[/url] section answers many questions.

 

And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah.?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

 

"Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.

 

"If Thou dost punish them, they are Thy servant: If Thou dost forgive them, Thou art the Exalted in power, the Wise."

[5:116-118]

 

 

i await your reply, and any other questions you may have :D

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Alsalam Alykom (Peace be upon you)

Did Jesus Die?

 

It's a BBC documentry that I was watching last night, it's a little old, but it hits several important issue about Jesus (PBUH)...it dosn't have the Islamic point of view. sister Amani has provided you that.

 

 

(www.)"you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/features/did-jesus-die.shtml"]you can't post links until you reach 50 posts_www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries...jesus-die.shtml[/url]

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[Regarding Jesus (peace be upon him) - he himself never said he was the son of God so this is actually a lie against him. he did not bring about a new religion.

 

Stranger, this is simply not true. This is a myth and a falsehood that seems to be circuiting through the society right now, the idea that Jesus never referred to himself as the son of God, and he did not mean (I assume this is what you meant when you said he did not bring about a new religion, because he is obviously brought about a new religion--Chrisitianity) to bring about a new religion.

 

The truth is, according to the Bible, Jesus referred to himself as the Son of God and the Son of man many, many times. Many of these are recorded in the book of John, but the other three gospels contain these references too. In one place, Jesus healed a blind man and asked him if he "believed on the Son of God." The blind man said, "Who is he Lord, that I may believe on him?" Jesus answered, "It is both he that healed you, and he that speaketh to you right now." Of course this is only one example and there are many more in the Scripture.

 

Do not try to say that Jesus did not refer to himself as the Son of God, unless of course, you say the writers of these gospels just lied in saying that Jesus referred to himself as the Son of God, when he really didn't. That they just make that up and lied. Many of these writers gave their lives for the gospel of Christ and for Christianity. People don't die for something they know is false. If these writers knew that it was all the big hoax, do you really think they would have given their lives for it? No, of course not. People don't die for things they know are hoaxes (if that's a word).

 

 

Why do you think the Jews hated Jesus so much anyways? Because he claimed to be God. The Pharisee picked up stones to stone Jesus one day. Jesus asked them, " For which of my good works do you stone me?" The Pharisees replied, " We are not stoning you for your good works. We are stoning you because you being a man, make yourself God." Jesus both claimed to be the Son of God and to be equal with God. Anyone who claims otherwise must present proof, and I must admit, there is not proof to present.

 

Also, Jesus did not necessarily bring about a new religion. From a secular, worldly point of view, yes he brought about "Christianity." But this had been in God's plans since the very beginning of time.

 

Jesus was the fulfillment of the Jewish Pentateuch or Torah or Law or whatever you want to call it. Jesus himself said, "I have come to fulfill the law." He was the Messiah sent to the Jewish people, but they did not recognize him as such. Instead, caught up in their own little religious ceremonies and games, they rejected him as Savior, and they killed him on a cross, and the third day he rose from the dead.

 

But Jesus knew he was going to die. He regularly spoke of how "the Son of man would be killed by the chief priests and scribes, and the third day would rise again." Any amateur student of the Scriptures can read these plain passages. Also, if Jesus did not mean to "start a new religion," then what about Matthew 28:19? In it Jesus tells his disciples, "Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." What about Acts 1:8? Jesus says to disciples, " But ye shall receive power after that the Holy Ghost is come upon, and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem and in all Judaea and in Samaria and unto the uttermost parts of the earth." Do not try to say that Jesus did not come to "start a new religion." He obviously came to bring something new.

 

Stranger, I do not know where you came up with these ideas, but they are simply not true. Go do a careful study of the most reliable historical document in the world--the Bible. Write back and take care. God bless!!

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I cannot edit so ignore the "Stranger" and read it as Amani.

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Stranger, I do not know where you came up with these ideas, but they are simply not true. Go do a careful study of the most reliable historical document in the world--the Bible. Write back and take care. God bless!!

:D

which version would that be...NIV/KJV/ ....?

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:D

 

mot, i have simple questions for you. In your honest opinion, does this make sense? you regard the bible as your holy book yet it has been changed over the years to suit the whims and fancies of the modern world? since you now have so many versions, can you still regard it as the word of God? If Jesus is God, like you believe, does it make sense that he had to sacrifice himself for the sins of mankind?

 

does this make sense to you? : The Bible's New Testament also records Jesus saying: ""Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone." (From the NIV Bible, Mark 10:18)" note the exclusivity "God Alone"

 

 

"The truth is, according to the Bible, Jesus referred to himself as the Son of God and the Son of man many, many times." this is what you said.

In original Hebrew, "son of GOD" literally means "SERVANT OF GOD". There are many proofs of this. If he is, like you said, the Son of God, ie. the servant of God, then surely he cant be God himself.

 

 

wasalaam

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If he is, like you said, the Son of God, ie. the servant of God, then surely he cant be God himself.

wasalaam

 

 

Makes sense to me. I mean to say that he's God and then say he's a Son, then logically speaking, it would appear to me as if one would say God was created by something greater, and there is none greater than GOD ALMIGHTY.

 

Imperial1

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Mot,

 

It is interesting that you gave the definition of the name Jesus. Can you tell me why you chose this particular definition? Also, if Jesus (PBUH)referred to himself as Son of God, he never said that he is God. So again, why God wouldn't say he is God is also a mystery. It is true that the Bible has been edited over time. No Christian scholar will testify that the Bible today in its form is exactly the same as it was when it was written. Why do Christians have the right to edit from the Word of God. Why isn't importance given to every single word, letter to appear the same as it did when it was written. Hope to hear from you.

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Peace all,

 

I thought I might address the Scripture issue, since part of the communication problems between Muslim and Christian stem from the two different standards they apply to scripture.

 

Christians don't place as much stock on the exact wording of the Gospels for several reasons. A major distinction between Christianity and Islam is that in Christianity God and man are in a close partnership to establish the kingdom of God. The kingdom, the power, and the glory belong to God, but we are mortal vessels of his life, truth and power.

 

Consequently, there is more "humaness" in the process of writing and preserving the scriptures. The gospels were written to preserve the testimony of eyewitnesses of Jesus' ministry. They were never intended to be regarded as, nor did they ever claim to be dropped from heaven into someone's lap as the Quran was. The Christian view of the scriptures is that God's message is preserved there, and yet the human personality of the writer is intact as well. The original gospel was the inspired word of God, and everything after that is deemed to be a faithful copy or translation. Faithfulness was protected by an abundance of copies to compare against. Likewise, the multiple languages give us the opportunity to see how the ancient Christians translated the original Greek text, and check our own assumptions.

 

Beyond the scriptures we have the Holy Spirit to interpret them for us, and to speak to us as we journey through life. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would recall Jesus' words to his followers when they needed them. The Holy Spirit also opens our eyes to new truths hidden in familiar scriptures. he makes old passages live anew.

 

Lastly, we have Jesus. He promises to abide with all who would open the door to him. He is the Word made flesh, and therefore Jesus is to the Christian what the Quran is to the Muslim—the perfect revelation of the heart of God come to earth. He said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

 

So if all we had was the written word, then yes, the questions Muslims pose might be troublesome. Instead of just a map, we have a living guide as well.

 

To those who repeat the mantra that the Gospel of Jesus has been changed, please produce some hard evidence that the message has been corrupted. Show me something that trumps the 24,000 New Testament manuscripts and fragments (many predating the Councel of Nicea) and the 80,000 recorded quotes from the New Testament by the church fathers.

 

All the best.

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Hi me how are you?

 

Well, I guess it's not necessary for the Bible to be the exact wording from the Gospels. But for it to hold legitimate it should atleast be all the wordings from the Gospel. Why is it that some scriptures are dropped all together from the entirety of the text. Isn't that taking away from God's word? Again, why do Christians have the right to edit God's word? Sure go ahead and write it using more meaningful words but do keep everything.

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Peace and Hello Khomosh!

 

Have you heard from Ignatious lately? I miss his commentary.

 

I would say that Christians have a duty to shape their lives according to the scriptures, and not the other way around. The warning at the end of the Revelations is quite strong about adding or subtracting words from the message. Can you please describe what you mean by editing? Are there particular scriptures you are thinking of, or whole books? I know that there are a few passages where the editors will add a footnote saying that a verse is not in some of the oldest manuscripts. I understand this to be an act of intellectual honesty.

 

To be fair, there are some editions of the Bible that HAVE been doctored. The Jehovah Witnesses (a heretical Christian sect) are particularly guilty of this. They rewrote portions to match their beliefs. We know it's a bad translation because we can compare their Bible with the oldest manuscripts.

 

I like using several translations when studying scripture, because it gives a fuller sense of the text.

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Hi Me, No I haven't heard from Ignatius. Wonder what he's up to?

 

Well, editing basically means cutting or replacing sentences. If a verse is not in the oldest manuscripts, what is it doing in the new manuscripts? I wouldn't care how intellectually honest a person is being, it will raise red flags in my mind to the legitamacy of the whole text. Who is to say that this person is being honest in one thing but hiding the truth about another more important thing? Using translations is one thing, but translations with missing paragraphs, verses, words would not be authentic don't you think? It could not be reliable, wouldn't you agree? Wouldn't it make you think whatelse is missing?

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The early church was not as monolithoic as early Islam. Rather than being a movement with a single head, it was governed first by the apostles, and then bishops who were trained by the apostles. The leadership was scattered in response to and because of the persecution. There was a lot of publication going on as each town worked to first get and then make copies of the scriptures. There is not necessarily a direct line from manuscript A to manuscript B. The two may have been copied along parallel lines. The section that was not in the earliest manuscript may yet be discovered in an even earlier document. Noting the discrepency and moving on seems like a wise choice.

 

You bring up the issue of trust and perhaps indirectly, faith. The wide variety of physical fragments is a good way to test the faithfulness of the scriptures. The use of scripture in the early writings of the church is another way to test the veracity of the scriptures. We have thousands of cross references in the historical record. Every major doctrine of the church at large is founded on the stuff we can be certain of. The stuff that's questionable does not contradict nor alter the message of the gospel, so it's not like there's some "DaVinci Code" that the church buried under a pile of lies. As to the honesty of the early scribes, I can only trust that thery were sincere since they were willing to die for the testimony they were preserving, and often did so.

 

I would assert further that all scripture requires a measure of faith. Go to the Political Front and look at the burden of proof some Muslims place on those who accuse Muslim extremists of violent acts. The counter argument goes, "Were you there? Did you see it? Evidence can be faked. You can't know who is responsible." The same questions could be asked about the transmission of the Quran or the compilation of the Bible. How do I know John wrote that gospel? How do you know Othman got it right when he standardized the Quran? We weren't there. We can only trust the testimony of the people who were. Both Muslims and Christians can offer evidences of the divine origin of their scriptures, but neither can offer conclusive proof that it is so. Ultimately we accept it the basis of faith.

 

All the best!

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Well, I can continue talking about the legitmacy of the scriptures in the Bible but we are straying off the topic. So Was Jesus (pbuh) really God? If so, what makes you think so?

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Yes, I believe Jesus is one person of the Godhead. I believe the evidence is in the scriptures, and is supported by the testimony of the apostles, the witness of the Holy Spirit, and by the presence of Jesus in my life. I don't have the time now, but give me a few days and I will compile the scriptures that I believe support the claim.

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Yes, I believe Jesus is one person of the Godhead.

 

Salaam,

 

This is how the confusion of the trinity doctrine starts.

 

Imperial1

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"As to the honesty of the early scribes, I can only trust that thery were sincere since they were willing to die for the testimony they were preserving, and often did so."

 

Please explain why you believe that dying = sincerity = truth. Remember that Constantine the Great was the political founder of Christianity. Him and his panel of experts were the ones responsible for formulating what is essentially Christianity now. People dying for beliefs doesn't make the belief inherently right, it makes the socio/economic/religious environment right. Not that this is wrong, per se. But being willing to die for a belief doesn't make that belief true or lend credence to its authenticity.

 

(www.)"http://en.wikipedia/wiki/Constantine_I_of_the_Roman_Emp"]en.wikipedia/wiki/Constantine_I...he_Roman_Empir

[/url]

 

Do not ever fall for the fallacy that religions were merely born of their prophets. The governments after them had a lot to do with their publicity and their formation.

 

(www.)"http://www./cathen/04295c.htm"]www./cathen/04295c.htm[/url]

 

He had a lot to do with the current situation. And oh so many years ago. I'm sure many a crusader died knowing that he was going to the afterlife well blessed but that doesn't make it right. Jesus never preached these things.

 

Thanks.

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5.72 . They surely disbelieve who say : Lo! Allah is the Messiah , son of Mary . The Messiah ( himself ) said : O Children of israel , worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord . Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah , for him Allah hath forbidden Paradise . His abode is the Fire . For evildoers there will be no helpers .

 

5.73 . They surely disbelieve who say : Lo! Allah is the third of three ; when there is no God save the One God . If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve .

 

5.74 . Will they not rather turn unto Allah and seek forgiveness of Him? For Allah is Forgiving , Merciful .

 

5.75 . The Messiah , son of Mary , was no other than a messenger , messengers ( the like of whom ) had passed away before him . And his mother was a saintly woman . And they both used to eat ( earthly ) food . See how we make the revelations clear for them , and see how they are turned away!

 

surah al-maidah, ayahs 72-75....

 

need i say more?

 

:D

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5.72 . They surely disbelieve who say : Lo! Allah is the Messiah , son of Mary . The Messiah ( himself ) said : O Children of israel , worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord . Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah , for him Allah hath forbidden Paradise . His abode is the Fire . For evildoers there will be no helpers .

 

5.73 . They surely disbelieve who say : Lo! Allah is the third of three ; when there is no God save the One God . If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve .

 

5.74 . Will they not rather turn unto Allah and seek forgiveness of Him? For Allah is Forgiving , Merciful .

 

5.75 . The Messiah , son of Mary , was no other than a messenger , messengers ( the like of whom ) had passed away before him . And his mother was a saintly woman . And they both used to eat ( earthly ) food . See how we make the revelations clear for them , and see how they are turned away!

 

surah al-maidah, ayahs 72-75....

 

need i say more?

 

:D

 

"5.74 . Will they not rather turn unto Allah and seek forgiveness of Him? For Allah is Forgiving , Merciful ."

 

I like that line. Takes strength, a lot of it. So please, seek forgiveness! java script:emoticon(':D', 'smid_3')

smilie

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"5.74 . Will they not rather turn unto Allah and seek forgiveness of Him? For Allah is Forgiving , Merciful ."

 

I like that line. Takes strength, a lot of it. So please, seek forgiveness! java script:emoticon(':D', 'smid_3')

smilie

Hi

The verse is asking u to seek forgivness for the polytheism committed in the past by a trinitarian

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Peace all,

 

Please forgive the delay, it's been a rough time. I struggled with how to address this topic. I wanted to use the scriptures to support my belief that Jesus is God. I started with a huge list that ended up being far too long for this format. In the end, I have simply taken three themes from the gospel of John. John was the last living apostle of Jesus, and among the apostles he was one who knew Jesus best. Interestingly enough, a fragment of the gospel of John is the earliest New Testament document known to exist. John outlived Paul by 25-30 years, and so if Paul or any of the other apostles had erred in his writings, John was certainly in a position to set the record straight.

 

The first theme is John 1. John states that Jesus, the Word made flesh, is God. John clearly taught that Jesus was God, and so on John's testimony I also believe.

 

The second theme is the resurrection. Jesus said these two things:

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day" John 6:44

 

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" She said to Him, "Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world." John 11:25-27

 

Prophets can raise the dead, as Elijah did. The Christian faith views raising the dead and resurrection as two different things. Lazarus was raised from the dead, but eventually died again. Resurrection is the translation from death into eternal life--to never die again. Jesus is claiming to be the one who will do the resurrecting. This is the domain of God.

 

The third is worship. Jesus never commanded anyone to worship him, but he did not stop people from doing so. A messenger of God, be it human or angel, never receives worship, and prevents those who try.

 

[Jesus asks] "Do you believe in the Son of God?" He answered and said, "Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?" And Jesus said to him, "You have both seen Him and it is He who is talking with you." Then he said, "Lord, I believe!" And he worshiped Him.

John 9:36-38

 

Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, "Peace to you!" Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing." And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

John 20:26-29

 

I invite anyone to read the gospel of John and note how many things Jesus says that make him God's equal. Compare how prophets of the Old Testament deliver their message with how Jesus teaches. To see Jesus is to see the Father. What prophet makes this claim?

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BuckTheInfernal,

 

I believe that the conversion of Constantine was a mixed blessing to the church at best. I also agree that the church has found itself in some strange places over the years because of politics. This is a separate issue from the scriptures. We have manuscript samples that pre-date Constantine, when Christianity was an enemy of the state and not the power behind it. In addition, we have writings of the early church fathers quoting New Testament passages that also predate Constantine. The pre-Constantinian information supports our translations of the New Testament.

 

I agree that death does not automatically determine ultimate truth, it is however, an indicator of how the martyr viewed the word he lived by. People will die for what they believe to be true, but nobody dies for what they know to be a lie. The men who wrote the books of the New Testament could have simply recanted their testimony and lived. They chose hardship and eventually death rather than recant. For me, this confirms that they not only believed utterly what they had been teaching, but held it to be more valuable than life itself. Consequently, it seems illogical that people would go making changes to these books and then dying for what they know to be a forgery.

 

All the best.

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